(04-19-2024 05:31 PM)The Beaver Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 04:57 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 03:00 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 02:31 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 01:20 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  It was looking like:

PAC: Colorado, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech
B1G: Nebraska
BIG EAST: Iowa St, Kansas, Kansas St, Missouri
MWC (probably): Baylor

Larry Scott went to each Big XII South school minus Baylor to issue invitations to the Pac-10.

The expectation was that each school was going to accept the invitation so Colorado was invited first so Baylor couldn’t maneuver their way to the conference like they did in the Big XII. Baylor was seen as the Texas version of BYU. Too toxic and radioactive for the Pac-10.

Utah was put on hold in case Texas A&M decided to go to the SEC. Kansas was the other option.

Baylor inquired with the TCU and the MWC if they had a spot available for them. The late Kenneth Starr who was the school chancellor made a public announcement letting Baylor students, alumni, donors and fans know that things were not on their favor and to get prepared for a post Big XII world.

When the Big XII was saved and A&M announced they were leaving for the SEC, Baylor did what Baylor does best: they sued the Aggies. They lost.

That was my memory as well. The MWC might’ve looked like this in 2012…

Mountain: Air Force, Baylor, Colorado St, New Mexico, TCU, Wyoming
West: Boise St, BYU, Fresno St, San Diego St, UNLV, Utah

When A&M told Scott no, he flew to Lawrence, Kansas. They were on board to replace the Aggies.

ESPN and Fox came in with promises of big raises for the Big 12 and Texas decided not to go the day before all the board meetings started. Colorado had already moved. Texas Tech, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St. and Texas all had board meetings scheduled in the next couple of days to approve the move.

Right, my memory was that the invites weren't publicly announced but had been issued to the six members at the same time, its just that Colorado had jumped early. When A&M backed out the other schools paused for a few days, Texas ended up getting cold feet and then the offers were pulled from the rest. The Kansas talk was more that the PAC-10 wanted them all along but were being forced to take Tech to keep Texas happy. Baylor never had a realistic shot at anything, no-one was worried about them and they were terrible at both revenue sports (the NCAA violations would begin soon-after, leading to better on field performances).

Utah was a scramble move by the PAC since they wanted an even number plus championship game. They weren't getting in any other way and are probably right up there with Rutgers and UCF as the 2000s' biggest winners in expansion.

(04-19-2024 05:04 PM)esayem Wrote:  Holy Cross turned down the A10 and their invite went to St. Joe’s

They turned down an inaugural invite to the Big East too, and have been regretting it ever since.

That is a good one to mention.

(04-19-2024 07:05 PM)The Beaver Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 06:07 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 05:31 PM)The Beaver Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 05:04 PM)esayem Wrote:  Holy Cross turned down the A10 and their invite went to St. Joe’s

They turned down an inaugural invite to the Big East too, and have been regretting it ever since.

BC, six others form new basketball league

I’m not sure where that started but it’s false. No way the Big East drafted two programs out of MA

Well, I read it on wikipedia, which cites SUathletics, though reading that article they actually say the same as you, that they were considered but the "Boston slot" went to BC instead, versus Rutgers who actually declined the invite.

I've heard it many places. They originally wanted Holy Cross who had a big time basketball history.

(04-19-2024 08:51 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  VT was close to get a full Big East membership in 1995 but had to wait until 2000.

Cuse was close to get an invitation from the ACC in 2004 but had to wait until 2014

UL was vying for the last Big 12 membership in 2012. WVU got in and Louisville headed to the ACC in 2014 instead.

UConn was probably close to get an invitation from the B12 if some or all of 4C schools stayed. Yormark also wanted Gonzaga but didn’t get enough support.

UL was #11 in the Big 12 in 2012 if they could have agreed on a #12. They couldn't.

(04-19-2024 12:45 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 12:42 PM)AztecEmpire Wrote:  SDSU to the PAC, lmao. We almost got in there before it turned to dust. It worked out, I guess.

And SMU. SMU was in if 10 stayed and if 8 stayed. If 9 stayed, I don't know if both would have gotten in or just SDSU.

SMU engrained themselves in the pac12 conversation so well that they became an inseparable package with Cal and Stanford.

(04-19-2024 07:34 PM)SkullyMaroo Wrote:  In 1990 the Great Midwest Conference was formed. Membership included Cincinnati, Memphis State, UAB, Marquette, Saint Louis, and DePaul. Over the next several years they expanded with Dayton and were in talks with other schools. The Great Midwest ended up joining with the Metro Conference to form Conference USA. Louisville was pushing for South Alabama to be added and UAB was in the corner of South Alabama as well. South Alabama was told by the ADs at Louisville and UAB that they had the votes to join. The South Alabama AD was poised to fly to Louisville to accept membership, but the South Alabama president called him the night before to tell him we were backing out. His thought was it would be better for South Alabama to be a big fish in a small pond.

It’s a decision that’s been oft lamented by Jag fans. There's no telling where South Alabama would be today had we left the Sun Belt to be in that initial iteration of CUSA. We’d undoubtedly have started football earlier, but we might have been able to sustain where we were at in basketball. We were still a national power in baseball during those years, but South could have really benefited from joining.

Honestly, unless USA also launched FBS football when UAB did, they would have found themselves kicked out of C-USA in 2005 when Charlotte and St Louis were booted, or left out of the merger with the Great Midwest like VT, VCU, and Dayton were.

Looking back at what was going on in 1990, it would have been interesting if these moves occurred:

Texas and Colorado to the PAC 10

TAMU and Arkansas to the SEC

Would the Big 10 have felt threatened enough by these moves to add a 12th, even if it wasn’t ND?

What happens to SC? Does instate politics get them a seat in the ACC like it did VT?

How do the Big 8 and SWC react to their losses? Does the Big 8-1 look to some of the 6 remaining SWC schools to boost their numbers?

(04-19-2024 09:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 08:51 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  VT was close to get a full Big East membership in 1995 but had to wait until 2000.

Cuse was close to get an invitation from the ACC in 2004 but had to wait until 2014

UL was vying for the last Big 12 membership in 2012. WVU got in and Louisville headed to the ACC in 2014 instead.

UConn was probably close to get an invitation from the B12 if some or all of 4C schools stayed. Yormark also wanted Gonzaga but didn’t get enough support.

UL was #11 in the Big 12 in 2012 if they could have agreed on a #12. They couldn't.

Who were they considering? Cincinnati? USF? BYU?

(04-19-2024 09:29 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 07:34 PM)SkullyMaroo Wrote:  In 1990 the Great Midwest Conference was formed. Membership included Cincinnati, Memphis State, UAB, Marquette, Saint Louis, and DePaul. Over the next several years they expanded with Dayton and were in talks with other schools. The Great Midwest ended up joining with the Metro Conference to form Conference USA. Louisville was pushing for South Alabama to be added and UAB was in the corner of South Alabama as well. South Alabama was told by the ADs at Louisville and UAB that they had the votes to join. The South Alabama AD was poised to fly to Louisville to accept membership, but the South Alabama president called him the night before to tell him we were backing out. His thought was it would be better for South Alabama to be a big fish in a small pond.

It’s a decision that’s been oft lamented by Jag fans. There's no telling where South Alabama would be today had we left the Sun Belt to be in that initial iteration of CUSA. We’d undoubtedly have started football earlier, but we might have been able to sustain where we were at in basketball. We were still a national power in baseball during those years, but South could have really benefited from joining.

Honestly, unless USA also launched FBS football when UAB did, they would have found themselves kicked out of C-USA in 2005 when Charlotte and St Louis were booted, or left out of the merger with the Great Midwest like VT, VCU, and Dayton were.

To be clear, my understanding is VT didn’t participate in the merger because it was joining the Big East Football Conference.

(04-19-2024 12:55 PM)tf8693 Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 10:20 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  One of the most famous "almost added" votes was the ACC in 2003. The ACC needed three additional members to be able to hold a conference championship game (and get more media payouts). Miami was the key target, and the Hurricanes wanted BC and Syracuse in their move.

UNC and Duke were publicly against any expansion, meaning that one additional "no" vote would derail any invitations. UVa voted no on expansion until VT & Miami were bundled in the same expansion vote.

BC got an invitation in 2004. Syracuse waited nearly a decade.

Later in the process (i.e., after Miami and Virginia Tech were admitted, but before BC was), Notre Dame was the favorite to land the 12th spot.

This is pure speculation on my part, but based on what went down afterward, I believe the following to be true:

ND and the ACC had a deal in principal for ND to join the ACC as a full member. The deal provided for ND to join the ACC immediately in all sports but football, and football membership to be delayed. The deal was contingent upon the ACC being able to hold a CCG in the interim.

The ACC applied to the NCAA for a waiver to hold a championship game with 11 members and was denied. At that time, I believe the ND-ACC deal fell apart when the two sides could not agree as to a time for ND to enter in football. As a result, the ACC went with BC.

Pretty much true. Donna Shalala at UM wanted BC and Syracuse to be 11 and 12, because so much of UM's students and alumni hail from the northeast. Miami was the main goal, so the ACC went along at first. They really just needed 2 more for a CCG, and we're happy to go along with her wishes if it got Miami on board.

After UVA blocked things unless VT joined, and the weeks of failed expansion votes, the final vote was for VT to be the first invite... to avoid shenanigans. Then Miami was quickly voted in, then the BC vote. That vote failed 6-3 with NC State casting the deciding No. NCSU's then-chancellor Mary Ann Fox was a ND alum and had many ND connections. She held out thinking maybe, just maybe she could get ND to join as the 12th. That of course went nowhere so the next year they want back to BC.

The Big East, right around the time of the demise of the hybrid conference, is a veritable treasure trove for this.

TCU had been invited to join the Big East and had accepted the invitation. Before they could join, however, Pitt and Syracuse both announced that they were leaving the Big East for the ACC. TCU got cold feet as a result, and wound up instead in the Big XII, along with another Big East refugee, West Virginia.

Villanova was offered football membership in the Big East if they upgraded football to FBS (they were already Big East members for other sports), but they declined to do so.

Temple played football only in the Big East in its final season. They had been promised full membership in the Big East, but the C7 schools split before that could become a reality.

Similarly, UCF, Houston, Memphis and SMU all were invited to join the Big East, but all wound up joining the AAC instead following the split between the Big East and AAC.

Boise State and SDSU both had agreed to join the Big East as football-only members. Once the conference split, and it became clear that the AAC would be a G5 conference, however, both decided to remain in the MWC. Ironically, both had made arrangements to place basketball and olympic sports in the Big West, so if this deal had gone through, both Boise State and SDSU would have been simultaneously members of both the Big East and Big West conferences.

(04-20-2024 06:42 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  The Big East, right around the time of the demise of the hybrid conference, is a veritable treasure trove for this.

TCU had been invited to join the Big East and had accepted the invitation. Before they could join, however, Pitt and Syracuse both announced that they were leaving the Big East for the ACC. TCU got cold feet as a result, and wound up instead in the Big XII, along with another Big East refugee, West Virginia.

Villanova was offered football membership in the Big East if they upgraded football to FBS (they were already Big East members for other sports), but they declined to do so.

Temple played football only in the Big East in its final season. They had been promised full membership in the Big East, but the C7 schools split before that could become a reality.

Similarly, UCF, Houston, Memphis and SMU all were invited to join the Big East, but all wound up joining the AAC instead following the split between the Big East and AAC.

Boise State and SDSU both had agreed to join the Big East as football-only members. Once the conference split, and it became clear that the AAC would be a G5 conference, however, both decided to remain in the MWC. Ironically, both had made arrangements to place basketball and olympic sports in the Big West, so if this deal had gone through, both Boise State and SDSU would have been simultaneously members of both the Big East and Big West conferences.

That is sort of correct, the AAC is legally the BE, they did sell the name to the current BE which was a brand new conference. The old BE is the AAC.

(04-19-2024 07:34 PM)SkullyMaroo Wrote:  In 1990 the Great Midwest Conference was formed. Membership included Cincinnati, Memphis State, UAB, Marquette, Saint Louis, and DePaul. Over the next several years they expanded with Dayton and were in talks with other schools. The Great Midwest ended up joining with the Metro Conference to form Conference USA. Louisville was pushing for South Alabama to be added and UAB was in the corner of South Alabama as well. South Alabama was told by the ADs at Louisville and UAB that they had the votes to join. The South Alabama AD was poised to fly to Louisville to accept membership, but the South Alabama president called him the night before to tell him we were backing out. His thought was it would be better for South Alabama to be a big fish in a small pond.

It’s a decision that’s been oft lamented by Jag fans. There's no telling where South Alabama would be today had we left the Sun Belt to be in that initial iteration of CUSA. We’d undoubtedly have started football earlier, but we might have been able to sustain where we were at in basketball. We were still a national power in baseball during those years, but South could have really benefited from joining.

Well, you might be in C-USA so…

Some good ones in here.

I've thought before that the Big 8 / SWC merger just happened too late. If it was before Arkansas's move to the SEC, it could've been a new Big Eight:

Nebraska
Missouri
Kansas
Oklahoma
Colorado
Texas
Texas A&M
Arkansas

They could've started as an 8-team league and then evaluated what to do from there.

Merge with the Big Ten / SEC / Pac 10?

Take their pick of Arizona, Arizona St, Utah, BYU?

Wait for the remainders of the old Big Eight and SWC to merge and then take whichever couple schools emerge as their powers?

There was a great core there with lots of synergy. They just needed to rid themselves of more schools from the outset.

(04-19-2024 07:05 PM)The Beaver Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 06:07 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 05:31 PM)The Beaver Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 05:04 PM)esayem Wrote:  Holy Cross turned down the A10 and their invite went to St. Joe’s

They turned down an inaugural invite to the Big East too, and have been regretting it ever since.

BC, six others form new basketball league

I’m not sure where that started but it’s false. No way the Big East drafted two programs out of MA

Well, I read it on wikipedia, which cites SUathletics, though reading that article they actually say the same as you, that they were considered but the "Boston slot" went to BC instead, versus Rutgers who actually declined the invite.

Right.

(04-19-2024 09:15 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 07:05 PM)The Beaver Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 06:07 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 05:31 PM)The Beaver Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 05:04 PM)esayem Wrote:  Holy Cross turned down the A10 and their invite went to St. Joe’s

They turned down an inaugural invite to the Big East too, and have been regretting it ever since.

BC, six others form new basketball league

I’m not sure where that started but it’s false. No way the Big East drafted two programs out of MA

Well, I read it on wikipedia, which cites SUathletics, though reading that article they actually say the same as you, that they were considered but the "Boston slot" went to BC instead, versus Rutgers who actually declined the invite.

I've heard it many places. They originally wanted Holy Cross who had a big time basketball history.

It’s been perpetuated over the years without a true source. Going back to the details of the Big East’s formation, Holy Cross and URI did not receive invitations. Maybe their president was cold to the idea—he was about 1-A football—but they never received an invitation.

Now they did receive one to the A10 in the 80’s, but it was declined and went to St. Joe’s. A terrible decision IMO

(04-20-2024 07:11 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  

(04-20-2024 06:42 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  The Big East, right around the time of the demise of the hybrid conference, is a veritable treasure trove for this.

TCU had been invited to join the Big East and had accepted the invitation. Before they could join, however, Pitt and Syracuse both announced that they were leaving the Big East for the ACC. TCU got cold feet as a result, and wound up instead in the Big XII, along with another Big East refugee, West Virginia.

Villanova was offered football membership in the Big East if they upgraded football to FBS (they were already Big East members for other sports), but they declined to do so.

Temple played football only in the Big East in its final season. They had been promised full membership in the Big East, but the C7 schools split before that could become a reality.

Similarly, UCF, Houston, Memphis and SMU all were invited to join the Big East, but all wound up joining the AAC instead following the split between the Big East and AAC.

Boise State and SDSU both had agreed to join the Big East as football-only members. Once the conference split, and it became clear that the AAC would be a G5 conference, however, both decided to remain in the MWC. Ironically, both had made arrangements to place basketball and olympic sports in the Big West, so if this deal had gone through, both Boise State and SDSU would have been simultaneously members of both the Big East and Big West conferences.

That is sort of correct, the AAC is legally the BE, they did sell the name to the current BE which was a brand new conference. The old BE is the AAC.

Who has the records?

ACC left all their records with the SoCon, but the Pac absorbed the records of the PCC and AAWU

(04-20-2024 07:55 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-20-2024 07:11 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  

(04-20-2024 06:42 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  The Big East, right around the time of the demise of the hybrid conference, is a veritable treasure trove for this.

TCU had been invited to join the Big East and had accepted the invitation. Before they could join, however, Pitt and Syracuse both announced that they were leaving the Big East for the ACC. TCU got cold feet as a result, and wound up instead in the Big XII, along with another Big East refugee, West Virginia.

Villanova was offered football membership in the Big East if they upgraded football to FBS (they were already Big East members for other sports), but they declined to do so.

Temple played football only in the Big East in its final season. They had been promised full membership in the Big East, but the C7 schools split before that could become a reality.

Similarly, UCF, Houston, Memphis and SMU all were invited to join the Big East, but all wound up joining the AAC instead following the split between the Big East and AAC.

Boise State and SDSU both had agreed to join the Big East as football-only members. Once the conference split, and it became clear that the AAC would be a G5 conference, however, both decided to remain in the MWC. Ironically, both had made arrangements to place basketball and olympic sports in the Big West, so if this deal had gone through, both Boise State and SDSU would have been simultaneously members of both the Big East and Big West conferences.

That is sort of correct, the AAC is legally the BE, they did sell the name to the current BE which was a brand new conference. The old BE is the AAC.

Who has the records?

ACC left all their records with the SoCon, but the Pac absorbed the records of the PCC and AAWU

Split if I'm not mistaken. Basketball records are with the Big East. Football went to the AAC.

In the early 80s, Villanova had a highly anti-football administration. They cut the program after the 1980 season and then voted down Penn St in 1982. Replace them with a pro-football administration and Penn St gets the critical 6th yes vote. Pitt and Rutgers likely get voted for full membership soon thereafter.

Big East football maybe looks like this:

BC
Syracuse
Pitt
Rutgers
Villanova
Penn St
WVU* ?
VT* ?
Temple* ?
Miami* ?

Alas, at some point, I think Penn St succumbs to the financial incentives of joining the Big 10 but this 1980s Big East football could have altered the trajectory of at least a few program’s history

I'm not sure how 'almost' it was (I suspect not so much really), but word was back in the around 20008-9-10 that OU was invited into the SEC on its own. However our then university president said that we'd go only if Oklahoma State came along as well. At minimum, I'd say the SEC ateast vetted the possibility, maybe even a had word or two with OSU at some point. But said no. If they'd said yes to that, I wonder if Missouri/A&M happens?

(04-19-2024 09:38 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 09:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-19-2024 08:51 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  VT was close to get a full Big East membership in 1995 but had to wait until 2000.

Cuse was close to get an invitation from the ACC in 2004 but had to wait until 2014

UL was vying for the last Big 12 membership in 2012. WVU got in and Louisville headed to the ACC in 2014 instead.

UConn was probably close to get an invitation from the B12 if some or all of 4C schools stayed. Yormark also wanted Gonzaga but didn’t get enough support.

UL was #11 in the Big 12 in 2012 if they could have agreed on a #12. They couldn't.

Who were they considering? Cincinnati? USF? BYU?

Seems like BYU was a no go for a number of non-athletic reasons. They were looking at anybody else and didn't find anyone.

(04-20-2024 06:42 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  The Big East, right around the time of the demise of the hybrid conference, is a veritable treasure trove for this.

TCU had been invited to join the Big East and had accepted the invitation. Before they could join, however, Pitt and Syracuse both announced that they were leaving the Big East for the ACC. TCU got cold feet as a result, and wound up instead in the Big XII, along with another Big East refugee, West Virginia.

Villanova was offered football membership in the Big East if they upgraded football to FBS (they were already Big East members for other sports), but they declined to do so.

Temple played football only in the Big East in its final season. They had been promised full membership in the Big East, but the C7 schools split before that could become a reality.

Similarly, UCF, Houston, Memphis and SMU all were invited to join the Big East, but all wound up joining the AAC instead following the split between the Big East and AAC.

Boise State and SDSU both had agreed to join the Big East as football-only members. Once the conference split, and it became clear that the AAC would be a G5 conference, however, both decided to remain in the MWC. Ironically, both had made arrangements to place basketball and olympic sports in the Big West, so if this deal had gone through, both Boise State and SDSU would have been simultaneously members of both the Big East and Big West conferences.

Villanova later did decide to upgrade. But they were going to do it on the cheap and were going to use a soccer stadium as their facility. The conference could see they weren't really committing and turned them down. If I'm remembering right, Pitt and Syracuse decided to leave right after that debacle. It may have been part of what influenced them to look.