(Yesterday 10:33 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  two things can be true, I think

a) the original, texas-centric plan the WAC built in 2021 did not work out and is not going to work out. Some of that is because of mistakes WAC leaders made, some of that is because of stuff that has nothing to with the WAC whatsoever. But its the reality.

b) without that texas-centric plan, there wouldn't be a WAC in 2022.

I think Point B is a big understatement. If the WAC hadn't gotten Tarleton and the other Texas schools, they would have been in a tough spot after NMSU ultimately left

Quote:The FBS United athletic conference plan wasn't denied, because there isn't even a mechanism to deny it. The plan they had is based on absolutely nothing in the NCAA rule book, nobody in FBS wants another conference, there's no mechanism for a bunch of FCS schools to get together and say yeah we all want to be FBS schools.

My best guess really is that ASUN commissioner Ted gumbart was just bored and having some kind of a midlife crisis and really wanted attention

Short answer the United athletic conference has as much chance of joining the NFL or the Premier League or the Ivy League s they do of joining FBS.

Here's the thing:

If we wanted to pursue the route of becoming an all-sports conference and moving to FBS it could probably be accomplished through a series of lawsuits just as Liberty forced their way in through brute strength (which was actually in direct violation of the rules and the time as opposed to this which is simply unaccounted for in the rules). The NCAA itself usually backs down from well-funded legal challenges of that nature, and a bunch of schools banding together would be just that.

But that's not the real obstacle.

The real issue is that while we might be able to technically be FBS, the CFP contract is an entirely separate, and theoretically private, entity. They wouldn't let us in on that.

Now, could there eventually be anti-trust lawsuits that rule in part that a contract involving mostly government funded institutions is not truly private? Maybe, but that's a lot of legal stuff to play out, and by the time it did there would probably be other movement that changed the status quo yet again. So juice is not really worth the squeeze on really even attempting it at this point.

So you're correct in your assessment that it won't happen. But I think the reasons are a little more nuanced.

(Yesterday 10:26 AM)TOPSTRAIGHT Wrote:  Queens should go to the Big South. It just makes too much sense. If the ASUN gets low on football they could always add Gardner-Webb and/or Charleston Southern as FB only members or even full members. I think they would take the invite. Their affiliate deal with the OVC is OK--but the ASUN would be better.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Queens join the Big South either, especially if Charleston joins the A10 and Big South school like High Point fills that gap in the CAA

Even without a Big South departure Queens as Big South #10 works out

(Yesterday 03:17 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  

(05-01-2024 10:12 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  

(05-01-2024 02:52 PM)solohawks Wrote:  If the last 4 Texas schools go back east, the WAC will be down to 6.

I could see the 3 Utah schools not liking that, since there are no great expansion options out west, and trying to get in the Summit. The Summit could sure use the baseball and soccer programs of Utah Valley and Utah Tech

Since the UAC is operating as a single sports FCS football conference, Southern Utah and Utah Tech would still have a home there.

If I were Grand Canyon, Cal Baptist and Seattle I'd be nervous right now

Cal Baptist would likely find a home in the WCC. Grand Canyon, either the WCC or MWC to balance out Hawaii. Seattle to the Big West.

Yep, Cal Baptist to the WCC makes sense. The addition would fit the conference profile, bump membership back up to an even 10, and give the WCC a fourth SoCal school which would simplify scheduling and travel.

I also agree Seattle might find temporary shelter in Big West, although its logical ultimate home is the WCC. I doubt Hawaii would have an issue with the addition. We actually recruit quite a bit in the Pacific Northwest. However adding Seattle might be a tough sell to the Cal State schools with their constrained budgets.

I could see GCU ending up as the odd one out that has the most trouble finding a new home. Even though the school invests big bucks in athletics, has first class facilities and has performed well in hoops and other sports, it may not be viewed as an acceptable institutional fit by the WCC or MWC. Potential issues include its ongoing battles with the US DOE, massive enrollment dominated by remote learning students, and relatively poor academic ranking.

Before reading Matt Brown’s report I hadn’t considered the possibility of the Utah schools going to the Summit, but after looking at a map and thinking about it I can see the logic. Utah is contiguous to the current Summit footprint, and the additions would grow the conference from 9 to 12 members which is a good size and resolves certain sports-specific issues as solohawks pointed out. UVU would be a good travel partner for Denver, and the southern Utah schools are easily reachable via Las Vegas which has direct flights from the Dakotas, Minneapolis, Omaha, and Tulsa. It makes too much sense not to happen if WAC membership erodes much further.

Why would Cal Baptist in the WCC make sense if Gonzaga, St. Mary’s, Oregon State, Washington State are in the conference & driving most of the revenue?

They don’t want more mouths to feed.

WCC has an odd number even with the Pac-2. Cal Baptist makes that even, and gives them an even number in Southern California.

Seattle adds nothing with Gonzaga in the league. Once Gonzaga departs they become a logical travel partner for Portland or Washington State.

I doubt WSU and OSU stay long term. Obviously if just one of them departs then that changes the travel partner for Portland.

(Yesterday 12:53 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  WCC has an odd number even with the Pac-2. Cal Baptist makes that even, and gives them an even number in Southern California.

Seattle adds nothing with Gonzaga in the league. Once Gonzaga departs they become a logical travel partner for Portland or Washington State.

I doubt WSU and OSU stay long term. Obviously if just one of them departs then that changes the travel partner for Portland.

Just like Seattle, Cal Baptist adds nothing other than another mouth to feed.

Gonzaga, St. Mary’s, Washington State, Oregon State don’t really want to play those lower end WCC that much at the expense of playing stronger out-of-conference schedules.

(Yesterday 12:57 PM)AuzGrams Wrote:  

(Yesterday 12:53 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  WCC has an odd number even with the Pac-2. Cal Baptist makes that even, and gives them an even number in Southern California.

Seattle adds nothing with Gonzaga in the league. Once Gonzaga departs they become a logical travel partner for Portland or Washington State.

I doubt WSU and OSU stay long term. Obviously if just one of them departs then that changes the travel partner for Portland.

Just like Seattle, Cal Baptist adds nothing other than another mouth to feed.

Gonzaga, St. Mary’s, Washington State, Oregon State don’t really want to play those lower end WCC that much at the expense of playing stronger out-of-conference schedules.

Cal Baptist actually would've been 3rd in the WCC in attendance this past year, so I think they could be a net positive for the conference. It would also be the biggest school by enrollment in the WCC, so I think it's poised for long term success more than some of the other WCC schools.

I don't think WSU/OSU plan to be in the WCC for long, and frankly neither are consistently good at basketball, so I doubt they'd have much of a say.

(Yesterday 01:29 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  

(Yesterday 12:57 PM)AuzGrams Wrote:  

(Yesterday 12:53 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  WCC has an odd number even with the Pac-2. Cal Baptist makes that even, and gives them an even number in Southern California.

Seattle adds nothing with Gonzaga in the league. Once Gonzaga departs they become a logical travel partner for Portland or Washington State.

I doubt WSU and OSU stay long term. Obviously if just one of them departs then that changes the travel partner for Portland.

Just like Seattle, Cal Baptist adds nothing other than another mouth to feed.

Gonzaga, St. Mary’s, Washington State, Oregon State don’t really want to play those lower end WCC that much at the expense of playing stronger out-of-conference schedules.

Cal Baptist actually would've been 3rd in the WCC in attendance this past year, so I think they could be a net positive for the conference. It would also be the biggest school by enrollment in the WCC, so I think it's poised for long term success more than some of the other WCC schools.

I don't think WSU/OSU plan to be in the WCC for long, and frankly neither are consistently good at basketball, so I doubt they'd have much of a say.

Also, according to 2021 -22 EADA data (the most recent available), Cal Baptist has the WAC's largest athletic budget. It spends more than the football members and more than for-profit Grand Canyon. In the WCC, Cal Baptist would trail biggest spender Gonzaga but be roughly on par with runner ups Santa Clara and Loyola Marymount.

To steal a line from Matt, two things can be true:

- Cal Baptist would be an unnecessary mouth to feed so long as WSU and OSU remain in the WCC.

- Once WSU and OSU leave, which is likely, the addition of Cal Baptist makes good strategic sense for the conference.

(Yesterday 02:11 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  

(Yesterday 01:29 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  

(Yesterday 12:57 PM)AuzGrams Wrote:  

(Yesterday 12:53 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  WCC has an odd number even with the Pac-2. Cal Baptist makes that even, and gives them an even number in Southern California.

Seattle adds nothing with Gonzaga in the league. Once Gonzaga departs they become a logical travel partner for Portland or Washington State.

I doubt WSU and OSU stay long term. Obviously if just one of them departs then that changes the travel partner for Portland.

Just like Seattle, Cal Baptist adds nothing other than another mouth to feed.

Gonzaga, St. Mary’s, Washington State, Oregon State don’t really want to play those lower end WCC that much at the expense of playing stronger out-of-conference schedules.

Cal Baptist actually would've been 3rd in the WCC in attendance this past year, so I think they could be a net positive for the conference. It would also be the biggest school by enrollment in the WCC, so I think it's poised for long term success more than some of the other WCC schools.

I don't think WSU/OSU plan to be in the WCC for long, and frankly neither are consistently good at basketball, so I doubt they'd have much of a say.

To steal a line from Matt, two things can be true:

- Cal Baptist would be an unnecessary mouth to feed so long as WSU and OSU remain in the WCC.

- Once WSU and OSU leave, which is likely, the addition of Cal Baptist makes good strategic sense for the conference.

I think that's a very fair point of view, and I agree.

Even if WSU/OSU aren't strong adds from a basketball POV (I know WSU was good this year, but they also just lost their coach), they're strong brands who probably don't want to play road games against Cal Baptist (nor do they wildly want to play road games @Pacific, Pepperdine, etc, but they can't avoid those).

WSU/OSU will be on the FIRST "train" 'outa town.

You have schools that wanted to get away from certain schools in the Southland for a reason. Houston Christian for example. Lamar left for a reason. It was a mistake for them to move back nd UTRGV to leave the WAC to a downgrade to the Southland.

The SLC 4 that left saw their travel budget rise by 1/3 to 1/2 in the WAC. Lamar, with its declining attendance and poor performance couldn’t handle that increased cost and went back. SFA, with its rejection of student fees, may be in a similar boat.

That said, everyone is overlooking the elephant in the room. GCU’s overall budget is roughly on par with its peers in all-sports, with one notable exception. Men’s basketball is almost twice as large as second place CBU (who has an overall higher budget, but pays a California price for it) and three times as large as third place SFA. I know for a fact that several schools feel they can’t get a fair shake in the WAC with them there (and probably a contributing factor as to why the votes for a WCC membership aren’t there).

GCU was owned by Grand Canyon Education until 2018, when they were sold to GCU to earn non-profit in title. However, GCE still runs day-to-day operations and receives 60% of tuition and fees for those services. The president of GCU is also the president of GCE. Essentially, a large part of their $7 mil MBB budget stems from being connected to a for-profit company with a large online degree presence. No other school can try and compete this way (likely the other major contributing factor as to why the votes for a WCC membership aren’t there).

The folks who think I’m just a GCU hater, I’m not commenting on the ethics. The U chose this route and chose to make MBB a marketing tool of their school. Somehow they are the only non-P5 school I can think of that draws an attendance average at or over 100% capacity of decent-size building, is in a major city and competes with all four major pro sports as well as with a large in-state P5 having a presence. If what they are doing is replicable, someone would have done it. Who knows, maybe it will be the norm in a decade or two.

But as it is, state schools can’t do what they are doing legally and most private schools think it is unethical. While GCU has been big factor in increasing the WAC’s overall ranking, as one non-UTA administrator told me, preseason rankings only matter for second on down. Everyone knows who is the fav. She meant that for any sport. Coaches have railed in press conferences over the perceived favoritism and even more behind the scenes think few programs have an auto-bid shot outside an upset.

I don’t know about Lamar thoughts, but UTRGV thinks they have a much better chance at postseason play in GCU-less conference. They weren’t specifically mentioning the Southland with that.

As long as GCU is in the conference, I don’t see any DII schools wanting a piece of that and no school in DI with a choice would willingly choose what Southern Utah did. The WAC’s days may be numbered because it’s bellweather school can fundraise in ways others can’t.

(Yesterday 08:33 PM)FoUTASportscaster Wrote:  As long as GCU is in the conference, I don’t see any DII schools wanting a piece of that and no school in DI with a choice would willingly choose what Southern Utah did. The WAC’s days may be numbered because it’s bellweather school can fundraise in ways others can’t.

Naaah. If schools want to be Division I, they'll take the opportunity to be Division I and work out their chances of actually getting into the NCAA tournament later. Once they're safely in Division I, then they can start working on whether they can snag an invite to the Summit or Big Sky or Big West or WCC or Southland. First ya gotta be D-I, and you take the bus that stops at your stop to get there.

(Sure some of those other leagues take Division II upgrades. BUt I don't see a school deciding to pass on a Division I opportunity because Grand Canyon is bogarting the NCAA tournament autobid and has huge financial advantages)

What WAC needs is to flip UTRGV to stay, get Lamar back, invite Texas A&M-Commerce, McNeese State and then get Angelo State, Kingsville, West Texas A&M, Central Oklahoma, Colorado Mesa, CSU-Pueblo, Midwestern State and don't laugh at me, Eastern New Mexico. If Gonzaga and St. Mary's go to the new PAC 12? You could get rid of Seattle, California Baptist and GCU to the WCC.

Incarnate Word is not wanted really.

(Yesterday 11:14 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  What WAC needs is to flip UTRGV to stay, get Lamar back, invite Texas A&M-Commerce, McNeese State and then get Angelo State, Kingsville, West Texas A&M, Central Oklahoma, Colorado Mesa, CSU-Pueblo, Midwestern State and don't laugh at me, Eastern New Mexico. If Gonzaga and St. Mary's go to the new PAC 12? You could get rid of Seattle, California Baptist and GCU to the WCC.

Incarnate Word is not wanted really.

The WAC isn't flipping anyone from Division I.

Taking a couple of Division II schools now that Utah Tech and Tarleton State are wrapping up their transitions is a must. If the Utah schools leave this may be the point if no return for the WAC.

The Pac-12 isn't taking St. Mary's unless if they're taking the entire WCC. Eastern New Mexico is not a viable option for Division I.

i could see the WAC bringing up more d2 schools. i wouldnt vote against it either

If the Texas schools are serious about fb I think the Summit League could make a good fit. One of them could potentially be a travel partner with ORU.

If the SL isn't adding FB, and if the Utah schools join the SL, I'm curious what they'd do with fb.

I'm not really a huge fan of the Utah concept as a SL fan.