(03-20-2024 04:54 PM)Sicembear11 Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 04:28 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 03:12 PM)bullet Wrote:  A partial merger makes sense. Merge league offices and TV contracts (when it becomes possible). Rationalize membership geographically. But keep two leagues for NCAA purposes.
There really is no reason to get up beyond 20 teams.

I don't see a partial merger. Either one raids the other, they both remain mostly whole, or they fully merge. There are no Washington States in the Big 12, and the only real "little guys" in the ACC are WF and BC. I think I could deal with 2 "low end programs" like those 2 if it meant that we could avoid everything that would be entailed with a nearly-full merger sans those 2. So, my thought is that probably one of the Big 12 and ACC ends up in the 20-22 range, they both sit in the 16-18 range, or they merge with ~ 28 schools.

It's such a weird dynamic. Looking at it from afar like we are, especially in light of recent events in the Big 12 and Pac 12, it's easy to just assume that the ACC is dying and everyone is looking for the exit ramp. However, the ACC is currently getting paid more, they'll make even more from exit fees, and the ACCN is expected to grow quite a bit in the next couple years. I can easily see a scenario where Louisville and others, perhaps even UNC, say "we really want to go to the Big 12/P2, but this $450m exit fee that FSU and Clemson paid is stupid, we're going to sit in the ACC until 2036, collect our share of FSU's exit fees and all this nice ACCN money, then leave". And by 2036, who knows what the landscape even looks like? Phillips doesn't need to WIN anything here, he just needs to stall, obfuscate, and lawyer the heck out of his opponents.

Is there enough doubt that Yormark would talk to Phillips? Is Phillips cognizant of the danger his Conference is in and able to convince schools like Duke and GT that they're better off with the Truck Stops as long as they also bring those 5 AAU programs with them? It's going to be fascinating to see this play out in real time. I have a ton of respect for Yormark, but the ACC is much better prepared for what's coming than the Pac was, and it's highly likely that their Commissioner isn't a complete moron like Kliavkoff.

Your second paragraph is really on point and part of why I'm not expecting much movement out of the ACC to the Big 12. It isn't that the Big 12 wouldn't be at least marginally more desirable of destination for some programs (Pitt, UL, etc.) compared to a rump ACC. But the ACC 's exit fee is greater than the Big 12's, the ACC has the ACC network, AND the ACC will be receiving the settlements/payouts of the departing members. This isn't like the PAC where there was no exit fee, no GOR, and a full flight by membership without any real replacement options that almost dissolved the conference. The ACC will still puddle along without FSU/Clemson/UNC. They already have three inplace replacements with Calford and SMU. If they want to keep expanding they can look towards Oregon State, SDSU, Memphis, Tulane, USF, and UConn. The ACC is well suited to weather the blows of a departure and with the high cost of departure coupled with the reward of staying (and a lineup that the ivory towers will enjoy) I have a hard time seeing anyone lean too heavily into jumping ship to the Big 12. The only real risk is if there is large exodus of teams (5-6) that leaves the rest soul searching. I think it is unlikely that many teams make it out of the ACC and into the B1G and SEC.

Boston College
Syracuse
Pitt
Louisville
Virginia
Virginia Tech
NC State
Wake Forest
Duke
Georgia Tech
Miami
SMU
Stanford
Cal

You don't really need to add anyone else. If you wanted to go to 16 in the footprint, you add UConn and USF and call it a day.

I think there is something to this. That said, that GOR bond would grow weak by the end of the deal. There could be more incentive for ACC teams to jump at the end of the deal. By the same token, the passage of time without further losses might create the same kind of unity through adversity for the ACC that the Big12 seems to have developed during the UT/OU saga.

(03-20-2024 01:03 PM)Boots Wrote:  Considering the Big 12 and ACC are near equals in regards to payouts now, do you think we could see smarter brains prevail into a merger or combined umbrella for better geography (travel costs) for the student athletes/fans?

*Assuming 6 schools will leave the ACC....I chose (as example) Miami and Florida State to Big 10. And Virginia, NC State, North Carolina, and Clemson to SEC. This now puts both the Big 10 and SEC at 20 total teams.

*That leaves 10 ACC teams left and 16 total in the Big 12 (total of 26 teams). To get to 8 schools per division (for a total of 32 teams) we added 6 new schools. Oregon State, Wash. State, SDSU, Memphis, USF, UConn.

West: Arizona State, Arizona, Utah, Stanford, Cal, SDSU, Oregon State, Washington State.

Mountain: BYU, Colorado, Ok. State, Iowa State, Kansas State, Kansas, Texas Tech, Baylor

Central: TCU, SMU, Louisville, Pitt, West Virginia, Cincinnati, Houston, Memphis.

East: Syracuse, Boston College, Wake Forest, UCF, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, UConn, USF.

If every school is making similar dollars anyway....wouldn't this be WAY less travel for fans/athletes, preserves rivalries, great football/basketball, etc.?

You forgot Duke, but that's already been brought up. I wouldn't merge the conferences together. I would keep them seperate and just move teams around.

With the Magnificient 7 and Notre Dame in mind, as well as their destinations:

BIG: Miami (FL) North Carolina, Notre Dame, and Virginia

SEC: Clemson, Florida State, NC State, Virginia Tech

Here's what the conferences would look like:

ACC

Boston College
Cincinatti
Duke
Georgia Tech
Louisville
Memphis
Pittsburgh
South Florida
Syracuse
Tulane
UCF
UConn
Wake Forest
West Virginia

Big XII

Arizona
Arizona State
Baylor
BYU
California
Colorado
Houston
Iowa State
Kansas
Kansas State
Oklahoma State
Oregon State
SMU
Stanford
TCU
Texas Tech
Utah
Washington State

The six teams I added to the mix were Memphis, Oregon State, South Florida, UConn, Tulane and Washington State. I chose Tulane over San Diego State because of their NY6 Bowl win over USC, and they balance out the ACC, despite the Big XII being larger.

This is what I had proposed on the ACC board in January.

Assumptions:

1. The ACC loses FSU and Clemson.

2. This would be an ACC-centered merge, meaning the ACC would be a surviving entity. Its contract with ESPN and the ACC Network will be retained

3. The Big 12 would be absorbed into the ACC. Assuming a 75% vote is needed, the ACC would drop 25% of the Big 12 (4 schools).

3. Only one Pac-12 school would join the ACC.

How it works:

1. The ACC merges with 12 Big 12 teams. The following schools would be excluded:

BYU, Baylor, KSU, and one of the three Eastern schools (let’s say it's UCF).

2. The ACC adds Oregon State.


3. The new ACC would then have a total of 28 football teams:

15 from the ACC,
12 from the Big 12,
and 1 from the Pac-12.

4. The new ACC would be divided into four divisions of 7 as follows:

Northeast (OBE):
BC, Cuse, Pitt, UL, Miami, WVU, Cincy

South (old ACC):
UVa, VT, UNC, NCSU, Wake, Duke, GT

West (old Pac-12):
Cal, Stan, Utah, AZ, ASU, Colorado, Oregon St

Great Plains (old Big 12):
ISU, KU, Ok State, SMU, TCU, TTU, Houston

5. Each team would play 6 divisional games and 3 intra-divisional games. Every team would face everyone else at least once in seven years.

ESPN might have to pay slightly more than their current payments, but the ACCN's profit would be maximized and the travel would be minimized.

(03-20-2024 07:18 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  This is what I had proposed on the ACC board in January.

Assumptions:

1. The ACC loses FSU and Clemson.

2. This would be an ACC-centered merge, meaning the ACC would be a surviving entity. Its contract with ESPN and the ACC Network will be retained

3. The Big 12 would be absorbed into the ACC. Assuming a 75% vote is needed, the ACC would drop 25% of the Big 12 (4 schools).

3. Only one Pac-12 school would join the ACC.

How it works:

1. The ACC merges with 12 Big 12 teams. The following schools would be excluded:

BYU, Baylor, KSU, and one of the three Eastern schools (let’s say it's UCF).

2. The ACC adds Oregon State.


3. The new ACC would then have a total of 28 football teams:

15 from the ACC,
12 from the Big 12,
and 1 from the Pac-12.

4. The new ACC would be divided into four divisions of 7 as follows:

Northeast (OBE):
BC, Cuse, Pitt, UL, Miami, WVU, Cincy

South (old ACC):
UVa, VT, UNC, NCSU, Wake, Duke, GT

West (old Pac-12):
Cal, Stan, Utah, AZ, ASU, Colorado, Oregon St

Great Plains (old Big 12):
ISU, KU, Ok State, SMU, TCU, TTU, Houston

5. Each team would play 6 divisional games and 3 intra-divisional games. Every team would face everyone else at least once in seven years.

ESPN might have to pay slightly more than their current payments, but the ACCN's profit would be maximized and the travel would be minimized.

Looks good

(03-20-2024 07:42 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 07:18 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  This is what I had proposed on the ACC board in January.

Assumptions:

1. The ACC loses FSU and Clemson.

2. This would be an ACC-centered merge, meaning the ACC would be a surviving entity. Its contract with ESPN and the ACC Network will be retained

3. The Big 12 would be absorbed into the ACC. Assuming a 75% vote is needed, the ACC would drop 25% of the Big 12 (4 schools).

3. Only one Pac-12 school would join the ACC.

How it works:

1. The ACC merges with 12 Big 12 teams. The following schools would be excluded:

BYU, Baylor, KSU, and one of the three Eastern schools (let’s say it's UCF).

2. The ACC adds Oregon State.


3. The new ACC would then have a total of 28 football teams:

15 from the ACC,
12 from the Big 12,
and 1 from the Pac-12.

4. The new ACC would be divided into four divisions of 7 as follows:

Northeast (OBE):
BC, Cuse, Pitt, UL, Miami, WVU, Cincy

South (old ACC):
UVa, VT, UNC, NCSU, Wake, Duke, GT

West (old Pac-12):
Cal, Stan, Utah, AZ, ASU, Colorado, Oregon St

Great Plains (old Big 12):
ISU, KU, Ok State, SMU, TCU, TTU, Houston

5. Each team would play 6 divisional games and 3 intra-divisional games. Every team would face everyone else at least once in seven years.

ESPN might have to pay slightly more than their current payments, but the ACCN's profit would be maximized and the travel would be minimized.

Looks good

So include 5 schools with no bids in a 14 team playoff over 26 years.
Exclude #1 out of the 28-Kansas St. with 9 bids, #7 Baylor, BYU and UCF with 2 bids.
Include Oregon St. with 2 bids that neither Big 12 or ACC wanted and 4 Big 12 and 5 ACC schools with 1 each.
Sounds like something a parochial ACC fan would suggest.

https://www.csnbbs.com/thread-988626.html per Beprc07 on another thread:
Bids by School:
20 - Ohio St
19 - Oklahoma
17 - Alabama
14 - Georgia
12 - Florida, LSU
11 - Florida St, Michigan, Oregon, Penn St
10 - USC
9 - Kansas St, Notre Dame, Texas
8 - Boise St, Clemson, Virginia Tech, Wisconsin
7 - Auburn, Miami FL, Stanford
6 - Michigan St, Oklahoma St, TCU, Washington
5 -Baylor, Georgia Tech, Iowa, Tennessee, Utah
4 - Arkansas, Cincinnati, Fresno St, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, Texas A&M
3 - Arizona, Colorado, Louisville, South Carolina, Washington St, West Virginia
2 - BYU, Central Florida, Illinois, Memphis, North Carolina, Northwestern, Oregon St, Tulane
1 - Arizona St, Boston College, California, Coastal Carolina, Colorado St, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa St, Kansas, Liberty, Marshall, Maryland, Miami OH, Minnesota, Mississippi St, Navy, Northern Illinois, Pittsburgh, Purdue, Texas Tech, UCLA, UL Lafayette, Virginia, Wake Forest, Western Michigan

Power Schools (70) with 0 bids:
ACC - Duke, North Carolina St, SMU, Syracuse
B1G - Rutgers
SEC - Kentucky, Vanderbilt
XII - Houston

(03-20-2024 09:29 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 07:42 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 07:18 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  This is what I had proposed on the ACC board in January.

Assumptions:

1. The ACC loses FSU and Clemson.

2. This would be an ACC-centered merge, meaning the ACC would be a surviving entity. Its contract with ESPN and the ACC Network will be retained

3. The Big 12 would be absorbed into the ACC. Assuming a 75% vote is needed, the ACC would drop 25% of the Big 12 (4 schools).

3. Only one Pac-12 school would join the ACC.

How it works:

1. The ACC merges with 12 Big 12 teams. The following schools would be excluded:

BYU, Baylor, KSU, and one of the three Eastern schools (let’s say it's UCF).

2. The ACC adds Oregon State.


3. The new ACC would then have a total of 28 football teams:

15 from the ACC,
12 from the Big 12,
and 1 from the Pac-12.

4. The new ACC would be divided into four divisions of 7 as follows:

Northeast (OBE):
BC, Cuse, Pitt, UL, Miami, WVU, Cincy

South (old ACC):
UVa, VT, UNC, NCSU, Wake, Duke, GT

West (old Pac-12):
Cal, Stan, Utah, AZ, ASU, Colorado, Oregon St

Great Plains (old Big 12):
ISU, KU, Ok State, SMU, TCU, TTU, Houston

5. Each team would play 6 divisional games and 3 intra-divisional games. Every team would face everyone else at least once in seven years.

ESPN might have to pay slightly more than their current payments, but the ACCN's profit would be maximized and the travel would be minimized.

Looks good

So include 5 schools with no bids in a 14 team playoff over 26 years.
Exclude #1 out of the 28-Kansas St. with 9 bids, #7 Baylor, BYU and UCF with 2 bids.
Include Oregon St. with 2 bids that neither Big 12 or ACC wanted and 4 Big 12 and 5 ACC schools with 1 each.
Sounds like something a parochial ACC fan would suggest.

https://www.csnbbs.com/thread-988626.html per Beprc07 on another thread:
Bids by School:
20 - Ohio St
19 - Oklahoma
17 - Alabama
14 - Georgia
12 - Florida, LSU
11 - Florida St, Michigan, Oregon, Penn St
10 - USC
9 - Kansas St, Notre Dame, Texas
8 - Boise St, Clemson, Virginia Tech, Wisconsin
7 - Auburn, Miami FL, Stanford
6 - Michigan St, Oklahoma St, TCU, Washington
5 -Baylor, Georgia Tech, Iowa, Tennessee, Utah
4 - Arkansas, Cincinnati, Fresno St, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, Texas A&M
3 - Arizona, Colorado, Louisville, South Carolina, Washington St, West Virginia
2 - BYU, Central Florida, Illinois, Memphis, North Carolina, Northwestern, Oregon St, Tulane
1 - Arizona St, Boston College, California, Coastal Carolina, Colorado St, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa St, Kansas, Liberty, Marshall, Maryland, Miami OH, Minnesota, Mississippi St, Navy, Northern Illinois, Pittsburgh, Purdue, Texas Tech, UCLA, UL Lafayette, Virginia, Wake Forest, Western Michigan

Power Schools (70) with 0 bids:
ACC - Duke, North Carolina St, SMU, Syracuse
B1G - Rutgers
SEC - Kentucky, Vanderbilt
XII - Houston

Then the ACC / B12 should add Boise State?

It’s all about demand from TV networks. ESPN would not need second school from Utah or Kansas.

(03-20-2024 10:36 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 09:29 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 07:42 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 07:18 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  This is what I had proposed on the ACC board in January.

Assumptions:

1. The ACC loses FSU and Clemson.

2. This would be an ACC-centered merge, meaning the ACC would be a surviving entity. Its contract with ESPN and the ACC Network will be retained

3. The Big 12 would be absorbed into the ACC. Assuming a 75% vote is needed, the ACC would drop 25% of the Big 12 (4 schools).

3. Only one Pac-12 school would join the ACC.

How it works:

1. The ACC merges with 12 Big 12 teams. The following schools would be excluded:

BYU, Baylor, KSU, and one of the three Eastern schools (let’s say it's UCF).

2. The ACC adds Oregon State.


3. The new ACC would then have a total of 28 football teams:

15 from the ACC,
12 from the Big 12,
and 1 from the Pac-12.

4. The new ACC would be divided into four divisions of 7 as follows:

Northeast (OBE):
BC, Cuse, Pitt, UL, Miami, WVU, Cincy

South (old ACC):
UVa, VT, UNC, NCSU, Wake, Duke, GT

West (old Pac-12):
Cal, Stan, Utah, AZ, ASU, Colorado, Oregon St

Great Plains (old Big 12):
ISU, KU, Ok State, SMU, TCU, TTU, Houston

5. Each team would play 6 divisional games and 3 intra-divisional games. Every team would face everyone else at least once in seven years.

ESPN might have to pay slightly more than their current payments, but the ACCN's profit would be maximized and the travel would be minimized.

Looks good

So include 5 schools with no bids in a 14 team playoff over 26 years.
Exclude #1 out of the 28-Kansas St. with 9 bids, #7 Baylor, BYU and UCF with 2 bids.
Include Oregon St. with 2 bids that neither Big 12 or ACC wanted and 4 Big 12 and 5 ACC schools with 1 each.
Sounds like something a parochial ACC fan would suggest.

https://www.csnbbs.com/thread-988626.html per Beprc07 on another thread:
Bids by School:
20 - Ohio St
19 - Oklahoma
17 - Alabama
14 - Georgia
12 - Florida, LSU
11 - Florida St, Michigan, Oregon, Penn St
10 - USC
9 - Kansas St, Notre Dame, Texas
8 - Boise St, Clemson, Virginia Tech, Wisconsin
7 - Auburn, Miami FL, Stanford
6 - Michigan St, Oklahoma St, TCU, Washington
5 -Baylor, Georgia Tech, Iowa, Tennessee, Utah
4 - Arkansas, Cincinnati, Fresno St, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, Texas A&M
3 - Arizona, Colorado, Louisville, South Carolina, Washington St, West Virginia
2 - BYU, Central Florida, Illinois, Memphis, North Carolina, Northwestern, Oregon St, Tulane
1 - Arizona St, Boston College, California, Coastal Carolina, Colorado St, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa St, Kansas, Liberty, Marshall, Maryland, Miami OH, Minnesota, Mississippi St, Navy, Northern Illinois, Pittsburgh, Purdue, Texas Tech, UCLA, UL Lafayette, Virginia, Wake Forest, Western Michigan

Power Schools (70) with 0 bids:
ACC - Duke, North Carolina St, SMU, Syracuse
B1G - Rutgers
SEC - Kentucky, Vanderbilt
XII - Houston

Then the ACC / B12 should add Boise State?

It’s all about demand from TV networks. ESPN would not need second school from Utah or Kansas.

They would want schools that win at football so that people will watch. You seem to go out of your way to exclude several of those.

(03-20-2024 10:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 10:36 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 09:29 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 07:42 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 07:18 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  This is what I had proposed on the ACC board in January.

Assumptions:

1. The ACC loses FSU and Clemson.

2. This would be an ACC-centered merge, meaning the ACC would be a surviving entity. Its contract with ESPN and the ACC Network will be retained

3. The Big 12 would be absorbed into the ACC. Assuming a 75% vote is needed, the ACC would drop 25% of the Big 12 (4 schools).

3. Only one Pac-12 school would join the ACC.

How it works:

1. The ACC merges with 12 Big 12 teams. The following schools would be excluded:

BYU, Baylor, KSU, and one of the three Eastern schools (let’s say it's UCF).

2. The ACC adds Oregon State.


3. The new ACC would then have a total of 28 football teams:

15 from the ACC,
12 from the Big 12,
and 1 from the Pac-12.

4. The new ACC would be divided into four divisions of 7 as follows:

Northeast (OBE):
BC, Cuse, Pitt, UL, Miami, WVU, Cincy

South (old ACC):
UVa, VT, UNC, NCSU, Wake, Duke, GT

West (old Pac-12):
Cal, Stan, Utah, AZ, ASU, Colorado, Oregon St

Great Plains (old Big 12):
ISU, KU, Ok State, SMU, TCU, TTU, Houston

5. Each team would play 6 divisional games and 3 intra-divisional games. Every team would face everyone else at least once in seven years.

ESPN might have to pay slightly more than their current payments, but the ACCN's profit would be maximized and the travel would be minimized.

Looks good

So include 5 schools with no bids in a 14 team playoff over 26 years.
Exclude #1 out of the 28-Kansas St. with 9 bids, #7 Baylor, BYU and UCF with 2 bids.
Include Oregon St. with 2 bids that neither Big 12 or ACC wanted and 4 Big 12 and 5 ACC schools with 1 each.
Sounds like something a parochial ACC fan would suggest.

https://www.csnbbs.com/thread-988626.html per Beprc07 on another thread:
Bids by School:
20 - Ohio St
19 - Oklahoma
17 - Alabama
14 - Georgia
12 - Florida, LSU
11 - Florida St, Michigan, Oregon, Penn St
10 - USC
9 - Kansas St, Notre Dame, Texas
8 - Boise St, Clemson, Virginia Tech, Wisconsin
7 - Auburn, Miami FL, Stanford
6 - Michigan St, Oklahoma St, TCU, Washington
5 -Baylor, Georgia Tech, Iowa, Tennessee, Utah
4 - Arkansas, Cincinnati, Fresno St, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, Texas A&M
3 - Arizona, Colorado, Louisville, South Carolina, Washington St, West Virginia
2 - BYU, Central Florida, Illinois, Memphis, North Carolina, Northwestern, Oregon St, Tulane
1 - Arizona St, Boston College, California, Coastal Carolina, Colorado St, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa St, Kansas, Liberty, Marshall, Maryland, Miami OH, Minnesota, Mississippi St, Navy, Northern Illinois, Pittsburgh, Purdue, Texas Tech, UCLA, UL Lafayette, Virginia, Wake Forest, Western Michigan

Power Schools (70) with 0 bids:
ACC - Duke, North Carolina St, SMU, Syracuse
B1G - Rutgers
SEC - Kentucky, Vanderbilt
XII - Houston

Then the ACC / B12 should add Boise State?

It’s all about demand from TV networks. ESPN would not need second school from Utah or Kansas.

They would want schools that win at football so that people will watch. You seem to go out of your way to exclude several of those.

Which four Big 12 schools would you cut? ESPN will need some efficiency gains.

And this scenario is about the ACC maximizing the ACCN value by merging with 12 B12 schools and 1 Pac school, and the ACC is not cutting its own members. Somewhat similar to the Big 8 and SWC merger.

(03-20-2024 01:31 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:   "smarter brains"

Not likely, smarter brains would just pay FSU and Clemson just enough to stop sqawking and continue on as a distant 3rd best conference with stability. Their smarter brains thought they were holding aces rather than old maids.

Actually...they were playing with UNO cards...

(03-20-2024 04:28 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 03:12 PM)bullet Wrote:  A partial merger makes sense. Merge league offices and TV contracts (when it becomes possible). Rationalize membership geographically. But keep two leagues for NCAA purposes.
There really is no reason to get up beyond 20 teams.

I don't see a partial merger. Either one raids the other, they both remain mostly whole, or they fully merge. There are no Washington States in the Big 12, and the only real "little guys" in the ACC are WF and BC. I think I could deal with 2 "low end programs" like those 2 if it meant that we could avoid everything that would be entailed with a nearly-full merger sans those 2. So, my thought is that probably one of the Big 12 and ACC ends up in the 20-22 range, they both sit in the 16-18 range, or they merge with ~ 28 schools.

It's such a weird dynamic. Looking at it from afar like we are, especially in light of recent events in the Big 12 and Pac 12, it's easy to just assume that the ACC is dying and everyone is looking for the exit ramp. However, the ACC is currently getting paid more, they'll make even more from exit fees, and the ACCN is expected to grow quite a bit in the next couple years. I can easily see a scenario where Louisville and others, perhaps even UNC, say "we really want to go to the Big 12/P2, but this $450m exit fee that FSU and Clemson paid is stupid, we're going to sit in the ACC until 2036, collect our share of FSU's exit fees and all this nice ACCN money, then leave". And by 2036, who knows what the landscape even looks like? Phillips doesn't need to WIN anything here, he just needs to stall, obfuscate, and lawyer the heck out of his opponents.

Is there enough doubt that Yormark would talk to Phillips? Is Phillips cognizant of the danger his Conference is in and able to convince schools like Duke and GT that they're better off with the Truck Stops as long as they also bring those 5 AAU programs with them? It's going to be fascinating to see this play out in real time. I have a ton of respect for Yormark, but the ACC is much better prepared for what's coming than the Pac was, and it's highly likely that their Commissioner isn't a complete moron like Kliavkoff.

In addition to the ones you mentioned, I think you could make a case for Iowa State in the Big XII, and SMU and possibly (although less likely than the others) Syracuse in the ACC. I also would be inclined to include Kansas State, except that the Kansas legislature is trying to keep them tied to Kansas. That probably won't hold water if Kansas gets a P2 invite, but it probably will work if Kansas stays at the M2 level.

(03-20-2024 04:28 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 03:12 PM)bullet Wrote:  A partial merger makes sense. Merge league offices and TV contracts (when it becomes possible). Rationalize membership geographically. But keep two leagues for NCAA purposes.
There really is no reason to get up beyond 20 teams.

I don't see a partial merger. Either one raids the other, they both remain mostly whole, or they fully merge. There are no Washington States in the Big 12, and the only real "little guys" in the ACC are WF and BC. I think I could deal with 2 "low end programs" like those 2 if it meant that we could avoid everything that would be entailed with a nearly-full merger sans those 2. So, my thought is that probably one of the Big 12 and ACC ends up in the 20-22 range, they both sit in the 16-18 range, or they merge with ~ 28 schools.

It's such a weird dynamic. Looking at it from afar like we are, especially in light of recent events in the Big 12 and Pac 12, it's easy to just assume that the ACC is dying and everyone is looking for the exit ramp. However, the ACC is currently getting paid more, they'll make even more from exit fees, and the ACCN is expected to grow quite a bit in the next couple years. I can easily see a scenario where Louisville and others, perhaps even UNC, say "we really want to go to the Big 12/P2, but this $450m exit fee that FSU and Clemson paid is stupid, we're going to sit in the ACC until 2036, collect our share of FSU's exit fees and all this nice ACCN money, then leave". And by 2036, who knows what the landscape even looks like? Phillips doesn't need to WIN anything here, he just needs to stall, obfuscate, and lawyer the heck out of his opponents.

Is there enough doubt that Yormark would talk to Phillips? Is Phillips cognizant of the danger his Conference is in and able to convince schools like Duke and GT that they're better off with the Truck Stops as long as they also bring those 5 AAU programs with them? It's going to be fascinating to see this play out in real time. I have a ton of respect for Yormark, but the ACC is much better prepared for what's coming than the Pac was, and it's highly likely that their Commissioner isn't a complete moron like Kliavkoff.

In addition to the ones you mentioned, I think you could make a case for Iowa State in the Big XII, and SMU and possibly (although less likely than the others) Syracuse in the ACC. I also would be inclined to include Kansas State, except that the Kansas legislature is trying to keep them tied to Kansas. That probably won't hold water if Kansas gets a P2 invite, but it probably will work if Kansas stays at the M2 level.

(03-20-2024 04:54 PM)Sicembear11 Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 04:28 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 03:12 PM)bullet Wrote:  A partial merger makes sense. Merge league offices and TV contracts (when it becomes possible). Rationalize membership geographically. But keep two leagues for NCAA purposes.
There really is no reason to get up beyond 20 teams.

I don't see a partial merger. Either one raids the other, they both remain mostly whole, or they fully merge. There are no Washington States in the Big 12, and the only real "little guys" in the ACC are WF and BC. I think I could deal with 2 "low end programs" like those 2 if it meant that we could avoid everything that would be entailed with a nearly-full merger sans those 2. So, my thought is that probably one of the Big 12 and ACC ends up in the 20-22 range, they both sit in the 16-18 range, or they merge with ~ 28 schools.

It's such a weird dynamic. Looking at it from afar like we are, especially in light of recent events in the Big 12 and Pac 12, it's easy to just assume that the ACC is dying and everyone is looking for the exit ramp. However, the ACC is currently getting paid more, they'll make even more from exit fees, and the ACCN is expected to grow quite a bit in the next couple years. I can easily see a scenario where Louisville and others, perhaps even UNC, say "we really want to go to the Big 12/P2, but this $450m exit fee that FSU and Clemson paid is stupid, we're going to sit in the ACC until 2036, collect our share of FSU's exit fees and all this nice ACCN money, then leave". And by 2036, who knows what the landscape even looks like? Phillips doesn't need to WIN anything here, he just needs to stall, obfuscate, and lawyer the heck out of his opponents.

Is there enough doubt that Yormark would talk to Phillips? Is Phillips cognizant of the danger his Conference is in and able to convince schools like Duke and GT that they're better off with the Truck Stops as long as they also bring those 5 AAU programs with them? It's going to be fascinating to see this play out in real time. I have a ton of respect for Yormark, but the ACC is much better prepared for what's coming than the Pac was, and it's highly likely that their Commissioner isn't a complete moron like Kliavkoff.

Your second paragraph is really on point and part of why I'm not expecting much movement out of the ACC to the Big 12. It isn't that the Big 12 wouldn't be at least marginally more desirable of destination for some programs (Pitt, UL, etc.) compared to a rump ACC. But the ACC 's exit fee is greater than the Big 12's, the ACC has the ACC network, AND the ACC will be receiving the settlements/payouts of the departing members. This isn't like the PAC where there was no exit fee, no GOR, and a full flight by membership without any real replacement options that almost dissolved the conference. The ACC will still puddle along without FSU/Clemson/UNC. They already have three inplace replacements with Calford and SMU. If they want to keep expanding they can look towards Oregon State, SDSU, Memphis, Tulane, USF, and UConn. The ACC is well suited to weather the blows of a departure and with the high cost of departure coupled with the reward of staying (and a lineup that the ivory towers will enjoy) I have a hard time seeing anyone lean too heavily into jumping ship to the Big 12. The only real risk is if there is large exodus of teams (5-6) that leaves the rest soul searching. I think it is unlikely that many teams make it out of the ACC and into the B1G and SEC.

Boston College
Syracuse
Pitt
Louisville
Virginia
Virginia Tech
NC State
Wake Forest
Duke
Georgia Tech
Miami
SMU
Stanford
Cal

You don't really need to add anyone else. If you wanted to go to 16 in the footprint, you add UConn and USF and call it a day.

(03-20-2024 07:18 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  This is what I had proposed on the ACC board in January.

Assumptions:

1. The ACC loses FSU and Clemson.

2. This would be an ACC-centered merge, meaning the ACC would be a surviving entity. Its contract with ESPN and the ACC Network will be retained

3. The Big 12 would be absorbed into the ACC. Assuming a 75% vote is needed, the ACC would drop 25% of the Big 12 (4 schools).

3. Only one Pac-12 school would join the ACC.

How it works:

1. The ACC merges with 12 Big 12 teams. The following schools would be excluded:

BYU, Baylor, KSU, and one of the three Eastern schools (let’s say it's UCF).

2. The ACC adds Oregon State.


3. The new ACC would then have a total of 28 football teams:

15 from the ACC,
12 from the Big 12,
and 1 from the Pac-12.

4. The new ACC would be divided into four divisions of 7 as follows:

Northeast (OBE):
BC, Cuse, Pitt, UL, Miami, WVU, Cincy

South (old ACC):
UVa, VT, UNC, NCSU, Wake, Duke, GT

West (old Pac-12):
Cal, Stan, Utah, AZ, ASU, Colorado, Oregon St

Great Plains (old Big 12):
ISU, KU, Ok State, SMU, TCU, TTU, Houston

5. Each team would play 6 divisional games and 3 intra-divisional games. Every team would face everyone else at least once in seven years.

ESPN might have to pay slightly more than their current payments, but the ACCN's profit would be maximized and the travel would be minimized.

Makes perfect sense. Preserves some degree of regionality. I could only hope that we could reach this point.

(03-20-2024 01:03 PM)Boots Wrote:  Considering the Big 12 and ACC are near equals in regards to payouts now, do you think we could see smarter brains prevail into a merger or combined umbrella for better geography (travel costs) for the student athletes/fans?

*Assuming 6 schools will leave the ACC....I chose (as example) Miami and Florida State to Big 10. And Virginia, NC State, North Carolina, and Clemson to SEC. This now puts both the Big 10 and SEC at 20 total teams.

*That leaves 10 ACC teams left and 16 total in the Big 12 (total of 26 teams). To get to 8 schools per division (for a total of 32 teams) we added 6 new schools. Oregon State, Wash. State, SDSU, Memphis, USF, UConn.

West: Arizona State, Arizona, Utah, Stanford, Cal, SDSU, Oregon State, Washington State.

leave off SD state, Memphis, USF, and UCONN. To be honest I would prefer B12 just grab 4 or 6 and call it a day. Let ACC rebuild with G5 schools.
Mountain: BYU, Colorado, Ok. State, Iowa State, Kansas State, Kansas, Texas Tech, Baylor

Central: TCU, SMU, Louisville, Pitt, West Virginia, Cincinnati, Houston, Memphis.

East: Syracuse, Boston College, Wake Forest, UCF, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, UConn, USF.

If every school is making similar dollars anyway....wouldn't this be WAY less travel for fans/athletes, preserves rivalries, great football/basketball, etc.?

Too Big. Just grab 4 or 6 and call it a day. I would prefer 6.

Yes, the Big 12 just taking the best 4 ACC leftovers is certainly the highest likely outcome.

Then the ACC rebuilding itself.

The only big disadvantage to this outcome is the travel for the schools is just stupid insane. This would be a way to solve the travel issue considering everyone is getting about the same money anyway.

(03-21-2024 10:51 AM)Boots Wrote:  Yes, the Big 12 just taking the best 4 ACC leftovers is certainly the highest likely outcome.

Then the ACC rebuilding itself.

The only big disadvantage to this outcome is the travel for the schools is just stupid insane. This would be a way to solve the travel issue considering everyone is getting about the same money anyway.

Not necessarily. While the B12 taking just 4 ACC schools would result in slightly smaller B12, there is no reason they couldnt use a similar pod system to make sure each season was anchored by a group of relatively nearby schools---while some sort of rotation system allows for a schedule that cycles through the rest of the league every 4-6 years. Truth be told, Im just fine with the 16 we have now. But I imagine some of the eastern Big12 schools would love to have a few closer rivalries. For instance, would W Virginia love to have Pitt in the Big12 so the Backyard Brawl would become an annual league game? Yeah---I suspect they would. Would UCF and WVU like to be playing a couple of games a year each season against schools like Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Louisville, Miami, or NC State? Im sure they would---and if a couple of those schools were to be available it would be perfectly reasonable for the B12 to try and make that happen for those members if possible.

(03-20-2024 10:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 10:36 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 09:29 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 07:42 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  

(03-20-2024 07:18 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  This is what I had proposed on the ACC board in January.

Assumptions:

1. The ACC loses FSU and Clemson.

2. This would be an ACC-centered merge, meaning the ACC would be a surviving entity. Its contract with ESPN and the ACC Network will be retained

3. The Big 12 would be absorbed into the ACC. Assuming a 75% vote is needed, the ACC would drop 25% of the Big 12 (4 schools).

3. Only one Pac-12 school would join the ACC.

How it works:

1. The ACC merges with 12 Big 12 teams. The following schools would be excluded:

BYU, Baylor, KSU, and one of the three Eastern schools (let’s say it's UCF).

2. The ACC adds Oregon State.


3. The new ACC would then have a total of 28 football teams:

15 from the ACC,
12 from the Big 12,
and 1 from the Pac-12.

4. The new ACC would be divided into four divisions of 7 as follows:

Northeast (OBE):
BC, Cuse, Pitt, UL, Miami, WVU, Cincy

South (old ACC):
UVa, VT, UNC, NCSU, Wake, Duke, GT

West (old Pac-12):
Cal, Stan, Utah, AZ, ASU, Colorado, Oregon St

Great Plains (old Big 12):
ISU, KU, Ok State, SMU, TCU, TTU, Houston

5. Each team would play 6 divisional games and 3 intra-divisional games. Every team would face everyone else at least once in seven years.

ESPN might have to pay slightly more than their current payments, but the ACCN's profit would be maximized and the travel would be minimized.

Looks good

So include 5 schools with no bids in a 14 team playoff over 26 years.
Exclude #1 out of the 28-Kansas St. with 9 bids, #7 Baylor, BYU and UCF with 2 bids.
Include Oregon St. with 2 bids that neither Big 12 or ACC wanted and 4 Big 12 and 5 ACC schools with 1 each.
Sounds like something a parochial ACC fan would suggest.

https://www.csnbbs.com/thread-988626.html per Beprc07 on another thread:
Bids by School:
20 - Ohio St
19 - Oklahoma
17 - Alabama
14 - Georgia
12 - Florida, LSU
11 - Florida St, Michigan, Oregon, Penn St
10 - USC
9 - Kansas St, Notre Dame, Texas
8 - Boise St, Clemson, Virginia Tech, Wisconsin
7 - Auburn, Miami FL, Stanford
6 - Michigan St, Oklahoma St, TCU, Washington
5 -Baylor, Georgia Tech, Iowa, Tennessee, Utah
4 - Arkansas, Cincinnati, Fresno St, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, Texas A&M
3 - Arizona, Colorado, Louisville, South Carolina, Washington St, West Virginia
2 - BYU, Central Florida, Illinois, Memphis, North Carolina, Northwestern, Oregon St, Tulane
1 - Arizona St, Boston College, California, Coastal Carolina, Colorado St, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa St, Kansas, Liberty, Marshall, Maryland, Miami OH, Minnesota, Mississippi St, Navy, Northern Illinois, Pittsburgh, Purdue, Texas Tech, UCLA, UL Lafayette, Virginia, Wake Forest, Western Michigan

Power Schools (70) with 0 bids:
ACC - Duke, North Carolina St, SMU, Syracuse
B1G - Rutgers
SEC - Kentucky, Vanderbilt
XII - Houston

Then the ACC / B12 should add Boise State?

It’s all about demand from TV networks. ESPN would not need second school from Utah or Kansas.

They would want schools that win at football so that people will watch. You seem to go out of your way to exclude several of those.

Boise State, Fresno State, Colorado State, San Diego State, Tulane, UNR, UTSA, Memphis, USF, Air Force and some others people would watched them if they are not being hindered by the low rated schools that people do not watch. It can be said for schools that people don't watch like Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, California, Stanford, Oregon State, Vanderbilt, Duke, Wake Forest, Boston College, Miami at times, Virginia, Kentucky, Northwestern, Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, and Iowa.

(03-21-2024 11:13 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(03-21-2024 10:51 AM)Boots Wrote:  Yes, the Big 12 just taking the best 4 ACC leftovers is certainly the highest likely outcome.

Then the ACC rebuilding itself.

The only big disadvantage to this outcome is the travel for the schools is just stupid insane. This would be a way to solve the travel issue considering everyone is getting about the same money anyway.

Not necessarily. While the B12 taking just 4 ACC schools would result in slightly smaller B12, there is no reason they couldnt use a similar pod system to make sure each season was anchored by a group of relatively nearby schools---while some sort of rotation system allows for a schedule that cycles through the rest of the league every 4-6 years. Truth be told, Im just fine with the 16 we have now. But I imagine some of the eastern Big12 schools would love to have a few closer rivalries. For instance, would W Virginia love to have Pitt in the Big12 so the Backyard Brawl would become an annual league game? Yeah---I suspect they would. Would UCF and WVU like to be playing a couple of games a year each season against schools like Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Louisville, Miami, or NC State? Im sure they would---and if a couple of those schools were to be available it would be perfectly reasonable for the B12 to try and make that happen for those members if possible.

Divisions are gone. You don't need divisions or pods anyway to arrange scheduling patterns. 28 teams for a G5 or even an M1/2 is just stupid. There is zero benefit and lots of downsides vs. simply a joint TV contract while keeping two distinct conferences.

(03-21-2024 11:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-21-2024 11:13 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(03-21-2024 10:51 AM)Boots Wrote:  Yes, the Big 12 just taking the best 4 ACC leftovers is certainly the highest likely outcome.

Then the ACC rebuilding itself.

The only big disadvantage to this outcome is the travel for the schools is just stupid insane. This would be a way to solve the travel issue considering everyone is getting about the same money anyway.

Not necessarily. While the B12 taking just 4 ACC schools would result in slightly smaller B12, there is no reason they couldnt use a similar pod system to make sure each season was anchored by a group of relatively nearby schools---while some sort of rotation system allows for a schedule that cycles through the rest of the league every 4-6 years. Truth be told, Im just fine with the 16 we have now. But I imagine some of the eastern Big12 schools would love to have a few closer rivalries. For instance, would W Virginia love to have Pitt in the Big12 so the Backyard Brawl would become an annual league game? Yeah---I suspect they would. Would UCF and WVU like to be playing a couple of games a year each season against schools like Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Louisville, Miami, or NC State? Im sure they would---and if a couple of those schools were to be available it would be perfectly reasonable for the B12 to try and make that happen for those members if possible.

Divisions are gone. You don't need divisions or pods anyway to arrange scheduling patterns. 28 teams for a G5 or even an M1/2 is just stupid. There is zero benefit and lots of downsides vs. simply a joint TV contract while keeping two distinct conferences.

Division being gone is a mistake. There needs to be as little subjectivity as possible when determining post-season access. There are going to be real problems when multiple teams are tied at the top of the conference and they have to use deep tiebreakers that rely on things like "CFP ranking" to determine who gets to play in the conference championship with a shot at the playoff.

Place teams in pods, give them stakes with regional opponents/rivals, play the other conference teams intermittently. I don't care if one pod is harder than another, at the very least you know from game one that all you need to do is win your pod to advance to the conference semis/championship.

(03-21-2024 11:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-21-2024 11:13 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(03-21-2024 10:51 AM)Boots Wrote:  Yes, the Big 12 just taking the best 4 ACC leftovers is certainly the highest likely outcome.

Then the ACC rebuilding itself.

The only big disadvantage to this outcome is the travel for the schools is just stupid insane. This would be a way to solve the travel issue considering everyone is getting about the same money anyway.

Not necessarily. While the B12 taking just 4 ACC schools would result in slightly smaller B12, there is no reason they couldnt use a similar pod system to make sure each season was anchored by a group of relatively nearby schools---while some sort of rotation system allows for a schedule that cycles through the rest of the league every 4-6 years. Truth be told, Im just fine with the 16 we have now. But I imagine some of the eastern Big12 schools would love to have a few closer rivalries. For instance, would W Virginia love to have Pitt in the Big12 so the Backyard Brawl would become an annual league game? Yeah---I suspect they would. Would UCF and WVU like to be playing a couple of games a year each season against schools like Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Louisville, Miami, or NC State? Im sure they would---and if a couple of those schools were to be available it would be perfectly reasonable for the B12 to try and make that happen for those members if possible.

Divisions are gone. You don't need divisions or pods anyway to arrange scheduling patterns. 28 teams for a G5 or even an M1/2 is just stupid. There is zero benefit and lots of downsides vs. simply a joint TV contract while keeping two distinct conferences.

Could 28 work? I suppose. But my personal preference would be closer to the 16-20 range. Like I said----I really like the 16 we currently have. Maybe take the best 2 to 4 schools remaining in the ACC after any B10/SEC raid just to give WVU and UCF some closer schools or rivalries as I recognize they are more outliers in the current configuration. Agree that jointly negotiating TV/CFP contracts would largely accomplish as much as any merger.

(03-21-2024 11:43 AM)Sicembear11 Wrote:  

(03-21-2024 11:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-21-2024 11:13 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(03-21-2024 10:51 AM)Boots Wrote:  Yes, the Big 12 just taking the best 4 ACC leftovers is certainly the highest likely outcome.

Then the ACC rebuilding itself.

The only big disadvantage to this outcome is the travel for the schools is just stupid insane. This would be a way to solve the travel issue considering everyone is getting about the same money anyway.

Not necessarily. While the B12 taking just 4 ACC schools would result in slightly smaller B12, there is no reason they couldnt use a similar pod system to make sure each season was anchored by a group of relatively nearby schools---while some sort of rotation system allows for a schedule that cycles through the rest of the league every 4-6 years. Truth be told, Im just fine with the 16 we have now. But I imagine some of the eastern Big12 schools would love to have a few closer rivalries. For instance, would W Virginia love to have Pitt in the Big12 so the Backyard Brawl would become an annual league game? Yeah---I suspect they would. Would UCF and WVU like to be playing a couple of games a year each season against schools like Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Louisville, Miami, or NC State? Im sure they would---and if a couple of those schools were to be available it would be perfectly reasonable for the B12 to try and make that happen for those members if possible.

Divisions are gone. You don't need divisions or pods anyway to arrange scheduling patterns. 28 teams for a G5 or even an M1/2 is just stupid. There is zero benefit and lots of downsides vs. simply a joint TV contract while keeping two distinct conferences.

Division being gone is a mistake. There needs to be as little subjectivity as possible when determining post-season access. There are going to be real problems when multiple teams are tied at the top of the conference and they have to use deep tiebreakers that rely on things like "CFP ranking" to determine who gets to play in the conference championship with a shot at the playoff.

Place teams in pods, give them stakes with regional opponents/rivals, play the other conference teams intermittently. I don't care if one pod is harder than another, at the very least you know from game one that all you need to do is win your pod to advance to the conference semis/championship.

While I agree about your first paragraph, I don't think they care. Its about getting the most compelling matchup and the best ranked champ into the CFP.