(01-20-2024 12:26 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-20-2024 12:03 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 11:23 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 10:23 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 08:56 PM)esayem Wrote:  Of course this thread is derailed by know-it-alls who know absolutely nothing about UNC, NC politics, and the general state of college athletics in NC.

• Stop bringing up Oklahoma and Oklahoma State. This is a totally different situation with their own governance and has nothing to do with the UNC system.

• The UC system might be a bit similar, but California could be its own country with its own politics which don't emphasize athletics quite the way we do on Tobacco Road. Plus, it's obvious UC Berkeley and UCLA don't have the same relationship—culturally or otherwise—as Carolina and State. The lack of synergy was evident in summer 2022.

• We just saw Arizona State get dragged kicking and screaming into the Big XII. Anyone want to cite that example? Their PTB were very vocal the entire time while people here blew it off.

• Are there some people that want Carolina in the SEC? Sure. Big Ten? Sure. ACC? Absolutely. Are there people high up that actually pull strings that want Carolina and State to remain together? Definitely.

• Adding Carolina and State is the ONLY way a conference gets the entire state. It's more like the power of having Texas and TAMU together than Ohio State and Cincinnati. It's more like Indiana and Purdue vs Georgia and Georgia Tech. People, you just have to trust me on this lol... I might know a liiiiitle bit more about it than you.

A&M and OUT didn't leave a bunch of NC St-like schools only to vote them in at the first opportunity in the SEC. Perhaps ESPN will take factors other than ratings into consideration, and certainly the SEC would take more than just football ratings into account for UNC, but from where I sit, NC St looks a whole lot like Baylor and quite a bit less-desirable than Ok St. And if it takes both UNC and NC St to get the entire State of North Carolina b/c UNC is worth less than we thought, then I think we just skip over them. We could take Miami and Colorado and achieve dominance in 2 large-population, growing and talent-rich regions and just never invite UNC. If you'd asked me that a decade ago I would have said there was no way we'd ever pass on UNC, but the times they are a-changin'.

https://sicem365.com/s/13048/how-many-vi...am-attract

I still maintain that laws like this play really well with citizens and cost the politicians nothing, but when/if UNC actually misses out on the SEC (or B1G) and turns into a long-term 2nd class school because of the law, then it will either be quickly changed or the BoR will just decide to allow the move to happen.

If we take 2 schools in North Carolina then it will be UNC and Duke, and it will be because we want to improve our Basketball and Academic credentials. Duke is a blue blood in a major and growing sport and T1 Academically. UNC is a blue blood + a Flagship. NC St is the school where the kids who can't get into UNC or Duke end up. How many SEC or B1G schools are 2nd or, really 3rd best in their own region? Hint: zero. And if it takes 2 schools to achieve dominance in a State with only 10m people, well...perhaps they're both better off in the ACC, anyway.

Who is "we"? Do you work for the SEC or are you a university president there?

Colorado is a terrible example. A house on stilts until Prime leaves. These should be long term moves. We've seen where rash "market grab" moves have created an albatross which is eating up a portion of the pie.

Your little graphs have NC State ahead of Carolina (lol but you love "us"), Purdue, Illinois, Rutgers, and Maryland. And those programs have the benefit of routinely playing ratings behemoths. If NC State and Carolina were in the SEC, would their viewership not go up?

The selling point for UNC and NC St is that North Carolina as a State is adjacent to the SEC footprint, it's growing rapidly, and it is a very desirable direction to expand. However, Colorado is also adjacent to the SEC footprint, it's also growing rapidly, and it's also a desirable expansion direction for us. Colorado has the added benefit of bringing the entire State all by themselves instead of needing a buddy, they're AAU, and they have a very long history with Missouri and OU (and somewhat shorter history with A&M and Texas). I do not regard last season's CU ratings as sustainable, and I think that UNC's blue blood status in basketball trumps CU's overall stature, but CU is far more desirable than NC St. If the SEC had the choice of CU + any of Miami/FSU/Clemson, then that would be enormously more desirable than UNC + NC St. I strongly believe that if our choice was just to take both UNC and NC St or take neither of them, that we would choose neither.

You might not know this, but many fans of schools/pro teams/the SEC use "We" when talking about their favored institution.

Yeah, I was just giving you crap because of how authoritative you come off. I doubt you saw Missouri coming as an SEC partner, and I doubt your graphs would have backed it up.

The point is, Colorado ain’t joining the SEC. No way, no how. Ratings aside. Have you been to Boulder? I’m surprised they let Prime practice Christianity in public.

Quoting my own post:

Quote: Re: Colorado & Duke, I just don't view them as SEC institutions, period. Never have...

On Colorado, if Kansas' fans doesn't think they fit due to War Between the States history, where does that put Colorado, solidly a free state during that war and worse yet, corrupted by UC-Berkeley??

(01-19-2024 08:56 PM)esayem Wrote:  Of course this thread is derailed by know-it-alls who know absolutely nothing about UNC, NC politics, and the general state of college athletics in NC.

• Stop bringing up Oklahoma and Oklahoma State. This is a totally different situation with their own governance and has nothing to do with the UNC system.

• The UC system might be a bit similar, but California could be its own country with its own politics which don't emphasize athletics quite the way we do on Tobacco Road. Plus, it's obvious UC Berkeley and UCLA don't have the same relationship—culturally or otherwise—as Carolina and State. The lack of synergy was evident in summer 2022.

• We just saw Arizona State get dragged kicking and screaming into the Big XII. Anyone want to cite that example? Their PTB were very vocal the entire time while people here blew it off.

• Are there some people that want Carolina in the SEC? Sure. Big Ten? Sure. ACC? Absolutely. Are there people high up that actually pull strings that want Carolina and State to remain together? Definitely.

• Adding Carolina and State is the ONLY way a conference gets the entire state. It's more like the power of having Texas and TAMU together than Ohio State and Cincinnati. It's more like Indiana and Purdue vs Georgia and Georgia Tech. People, you just have to trust me on this lol... I might know a liiiiitle bit more about it than you.

With the understanding that I don’t have any insight into the situation, I would have thought Duke was UNC’s rival/partner, not NC State.

They have to make noise for their constituents but when it comes down to it, they know it's better to have 1 school in a P2 conference than no schools in a P2 conference.

(01-19-2024 11:01 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Arizona St President/AD were disrespectful towards the move to the Big XII in interviews. It was a big storyline at the time, and their unprofessionalism in interviews was highly criticized.

AZ St Pres showed his tech ignorance by describing the basics of streaming as though he were speaking of some futuristic technology. The AD said he would never set foot in Morgantown and later resigned, so I guess he really meant it. Perhaps he'll go back to being a sports agent and get Herm Edwards another HC position.

Kansas got Remy Martin, who stirred the drink in our 2022 championship run, so I guess we ought to welcome them, despite their looking down on KU from their recent ascent to the AAU, even though KU has been AAU since 1909. We fans are looking forward to playing Arizona (we owe them for taking a national championship from Paul Pierce and Raef LaFrentz in 1997) and both programs are ascendant in football. I don't know if Utah will ever admit to actually being a member of our conference. Reading remarks of Kyle Whittingham, whom I have always respected, I got the impression Utah will play in our conference without actually looking at us; his remarks sounded as though he expects an invitation to the Big Ten in the very near future, or he was just trying to encourage the fanbase not to give up or give in. Hoping that Colorado will feel welcomed.

(01-20-2024 12:38 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(01-20-2024 12:26 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-20-2024 12:03 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 11:23 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 10:23 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  A&M and OUT didn't leave a bunch of NC St-like schools only to vote them in at the first opportunity in the SEC. Perhaps ESPN will take factors other than ratings into consideration, and certainly the SEC would take more than just football ratings into account for UNC, but from where I sit, NC St looks a whole lot like Baylor and quite a bit less-desirable than Ok St. And if it takes both UNC and NC St to get the entire State of North Carolina b/c UNC is worth less than we thought, then I think we just skip over them. We could take Miami and Colorado and achieve dominance in 2 large-population, growing and talent-rich regions and just never invite UNC. If you'd asked me that a decade ago I would have said there was no way we'd ever pass on UNC, but the times they are a-changin'.

https://sicem365.com/s/13048/how-many-vi...am-attract

I still maintain that laws like this play really well with citizens and cost the politicians nothing, but when/if UNC actually misses out on the SEC (or B1G) and turns into a long-term 2nd class school because of the law, then it will either be quickly changed or the BoR will just decide to allow the move to happen.

If we take 2 schools in North Carolina then it will be UNC and Duke, and it will be because we want to improve our Basketball and Academic credentials. Duke is a blue blood in a major and growing sport and T1 Academically. UNC is a blue blood + a Flagship. NC St is the school where the kids who can't get into UNC or Duke end up. How many SEC or B1G schools are 2nd or, really 3rd best in their own region? Hint: zero. And if it takes 2 schools to achieve dominance in a State with only 10m people, well...perhaps they're both better off in the ACC, anyway.

Who is "we"? Do you work for the SEC or are you a university president there?

Colorado is a terrible example. A house on stilts until Prime leaves. These should be long term moves. We've seen where rash "market grab" moves have created an albatross which is eating up a portion of the pie.

Your little graphs have NC State ahead of Carolina (lol but you love "us"), Purdue, Illinois, Rutgers, and Maryland. And those programs have the benefit of routinely playing ratings behemoths. If NC State and Carolina were in the SEC, would their viewership not go up?

The selling point for UNC and NC St is that North Carolina as a State is adjacent to the SEC footprint, it's growing rapidly, and it is a very desirable direction to expand. However, Colorado is also adjacent to the SEC footprint, it's also growing rapidly, and it's also a desirable expansion direction for us. Colorado has the added benefit of bringing the entire State all by themselves instead of needing a buddy, they're AAU, and they have a very long history with Missouri and OU (and somewhat shorter history with A&M and Texas). I do not regard last season's CU ratings as sustainable, and I think that UNC's blue blood status in basketball trumps CU's overall stature, but CU is far more desirable than NC St. If the SEC had the choice of CU + any of Miami/FSU/Clemson, then that would be enormously more desirable than UNC + NC St. I strongly believe that if our choice was just to take both UNC and NC St or take neither of them, that we would choose neither.

You might not know this, but many fans of schools/pro teams/the SEC use "We" when talking about their favored institution.

Yeah, I was just giving you crap because of how authoritative you come off. I doubt you saw Missouri coming as an SEC partner, and I doubt your graphs would have backed it up.

The point is, Colorado ain’t joining the SEC. No way, no how. Ratings aside. Have you been to Boulder? I’m surprised they let Prime practice Christianity in public.

Quoting my own post:

Quote: Re: Colorado & Duke, I just don't view them as SEC institutions, period. Never have...

On Colorado, if Kansas' fans doesn't think they fit due to War Between the States history, where does that put Colorado, solidly a free state during that war and worse yet, corrupted by UC-Berkeley??

Duke is an ESPN jewel because they draw more viewers for hoops than about anybody. Colorado? Nice destination, but the represent a marketing opportunity for an SEC late night slot. That's what ESPN sees in them. I think they wouldn't mind Arizona State for the same reasons. That'll come down to cost benefit analysis and Greg Sankey saying okay to the bucks, or hell no to adding schools out of the Southeast. We won't know until it happens. How many we would take to the East will be a strong indicator of if we are looking West at all, meaning beyond Kansas. I think Oklahoma, Texas and Missouri are reason enough to look at Kansas and Arkansas might find them interesting as well. We'll see.

(01-20-2024 12:26 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-20-2024 12:03 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 11:23 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 10:23 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 08:56 PM)esayem Wrote:  Of course this thread is derailed by know-it-alls who know absolutely nothing about UNC, NC politics, and the general state of college athletics in NC.

• Stop bringing up Oklahoma and Oklahoma State. This is a totally different situation with their own governance and has nothing to do with the UNC system.

• The UC system might be a bit similar, but California could be its own country with its own politics which don't emphasize athletics quite the way we do on Tobacco Road. Plus, it's obvious UC Berkeley and UCLA don't have the same relationship—culturally or otherwise—as Carolina and State. The lack of synergy was evident in summer 2022.

• We just saw Arizona State get dragged kicking and screaming into the Big XII. Anyone want to cite that example? Their PTB were very vocal the entire time while people here blew it off.

• Are there some people that want Carolina in the SEC? Sure. Big Ten? Sure. ACC? Absolutely. Are there people high up that actually pull strings that want Carolina and State to remain together? Definitely.

• Adding Carolina and State is the ONLY way a conference gets the entire state. It's more like the power of having Texas and TAMU together than Ohio State and Cincinnati. It's more like Indiana and Purdue vs Georgia and Georgia Tech. People, you just have to trust me on this lol... I might know a liiiiitle bit more about it than you.

A&M and OUT didn't leave a bunch of NC St-like schools only to vote them in at the first opportunity in the SEC. Perhaps ESPN will take factors other than ratings into consideration, and certainly the SEC would take more than just football ratings into account for UNC, but from where I sit, NC St looks a whole lot like Baylor and quite a bit less-desirable than Ok St. And if it takes both UNC and NC St to get the entire State of North Carolina b/c UNC is worth less than we thought, then I think we just skip over them. We could take Miami and Colorado and achieve dominance in 2 large-population, growing and talent-rich regions and just never invite UNC. If you'd asked me that a decade ago I would have said there was no way we'd ever pass on UNC, but the times they are a-changin'.

https://sicem365.com/s/13048/how-many-vi...am-attract

I still maintain that laws like this play really well with citizens and cost the politicians nothing, but when/if UNC actually misses out on the SEC (or B1G) and turns into a long-term 2nd class school because of the law, then it will either be quickly changed or the BoR will just decide to allow the move to happen.

If we take 2 schools in North Carolina then it will be UNC and Duke, and it will be because we want to improve our Basketball and Academic credentials. Duke is a blue blood in a major and growing sport and T1 Academically. UNC is a blue blood + a Flagship. NC St is the school where the kids who can't get into UNC or Duke end up. How many SEC or B1G schools are 2nd or, really 3rd best in their own region? Hint: zero. And if it takes 2 schools to achieve dominance in a State with only 10m people, well...perhaps they're both better off in the ACC, anyway.

Who is "we"? Do you work for the SEC or are you a university president there?

Colorado is a terrible example. A house on stilts until Prime leaves. These should be long term moves. We've seen where rash "market grab" moves have created an albatross which is eating up a portion of the pie.

Your little graphs have NC State ahead of Carolina (lol but you love "us"), Purdue, Illinois, Rutgers, and Maryland. And those programs have the benefit of routinely playing ratings behemoths. If NC State and Carolina were in the SEC, would their viewership not go up?

The selling point for UNC and NC St is that North Carolina as a State is adjacent to the SEC footprint, it's growing rapidly, and it is a very desirable direction to expand. However, Colorado is also adjacent to the SEC footprint, it's also growing rapidly, and it's also a desirable expansion direction for us. Colorado has the added benefit of bringing the entire State all by themselves instead of needing a buddy, they're AAU, and they have a very long history with Missouri and OU (and somewhat shorter history with A&M and Texas). I do not regard last season's CU ratings as sustainable, and I think that UNC's blue blood status in basketball trumps CU's overall stature, but CU is far more desirable than NC St. If the SEC had the choice of CU + any of Miami/FSU/Clemson, then that would be enormously more desirable than UNC + NC St. I strongly believe that if our choice was just to take both UNC and NC St or take neither of them, that we would choose neither.

You might not know this, but many fans of schools/pro teams/the SEC use "We" when talking about their favored institution.

Yeah, I was just giving you crap because of how authoritative you come off. I doubt you saw Missouri coming as an SEC partner, and I doubt your graphs would have backed it up.

The point is, Colorado ain’t joining the SEC. No way, no how. Ratings aside. Have you been to Boulder? I’m surprised they let Prime practice Christianity in public.

The SEC is more than Alabama and Tennessee. As I stated above, 1/4 of the full 16 team SEC spent time in a conference with Colorado.

Boulder is incredibly nice. Is it more liberal than Athens or Gainesville? Sure, but it's no more liberal than Austin. There's a lot that the decision-makers can put up with if a school brings the Bacon. Would most of us PREFER UNC and some other ACC schools? Of course. But that doesn't mean that our only potential growth vector these days is "Northeasterly".

I knew you were messing with me, I was just politely messing back. I use the "We" for the SEC b/c my school overwhelmingly favors membership and A&M sees the SEC as our forever home. I'm sure that, up until quite recently, UNC felt much the same about the ACC, and I'm certain that it's uncomfortable to consider the unraveling or at least significant weakening of the ACC after so much time there as a member. At least you can take solace with the fact that UNC spent over a decade with 10 SEC members in the SoCon back in the 20s and early 30s.

To get this back on track, if the vote passes and UNC/NCSU are tied at the hip athletically, I don’t see the SEC taking them both, without FSU Clemson at least. Even then, Duke would better counterbalance the football. If the SEC doesn’t like both as a pair, they could turn their eyes to FSU once again and ESPN may make amends.

It certainly changes the calculus a bit for FSU as the B1G would not be automatic. But I don’t think the ACC can be killed off if UNC and UVa are tied to their little brothers. That’s a nice nucleus there. Still, I don’t see why the BoG would want to deny UNC its potential earnings outside the ACC.

(01-20-2024 12:31 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-20-2024 12:09 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 11:42 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 07:20 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 07:09 PM)mj4life Wrote:  Nothing new to those who understand the political nature of the UNC System. The President/BOG /State Government will have major influence over UNC/NCSU & their conference affiliation. Doesn't matter what the B1G or SEC thinks about it

OU could have joined with A&M. However, their President, a former Oklahoma Governor, refused to leave without OSU. The SEC passed, and waited.

If I were a UNC fan, I'd be fighting this legislation. It forces you to only have one Conference option and hope that the SEC will suddenly decide that money doesn't matter.

From the SEC perspective, I think that we'd like all 4 of Clemson/UNC/FSU/Miami, but if we only can get 2 of them then that would be fine, too. Let UNC die on the vine for a decade or 2 and see if they change their minds. Any of the other 3 would be more likely to bring in additional revenue in the short or medium term than UNC, anyway.

Ummm….I guess you don’t know much about the ACC.

UNC is like Texas of the ACC. They (ane their fans) won’t fight the legislation just to get into the BIG or the SEC.

That's funny because Texas was blocked from joining the Big 8 with just A&M due to political interference in the '90s, and they were in fact stuck with Texas Tech and Barely (and later TCU) for over 25 years after the end of the SWC. If UNC was "like Texas" then they'd work hard to be shed of schools like NC St, or at least be allowed to make their own decision on their Conference.

I would argue that UNC has some similarities to Texas, but they also bring in about half as much athletics revenue. UNC would in fact be very near the bottom in Athletics revenue if they were to join tomorrow and immediately get full SEC shares from day 1. Sure, they're cocky as an institution and their grads are also cocky, but that's kind of the point of inviting only flagships (or near-flagships). Everyone in the SEC is like that.

“Schools like NC State”?!? NC State is the engineering/ag school of the UNC system. The universities work together. This isn’t Texas where there are like 15 different university systems with governors and senators lobbying for conference inclusion lol

Schools like NC St, as in schools that aren't the "flagship" and are not even a clear #2 in their own region, get a little over 2m eyeballs avg in their best games each year, schools that have stadium capacity and/or attendance in the 40-60k range, and raise money and spend towards the lower end of their own conference. ie, I was commenting on their fitness for discussion for SEC membership financially, not their curriculum.

NC St looks a lot like Ok St, Texas Tech, UH, Baylor, Iowa St, and others that OUT, Missouri and A&M left behind. They're not elite Academically, either. It's tough to see why we'd want to replace a bunch of middle of the pack schools in our own neighborhood for middle of the pack schools 1200 miles away. UNC? Yeah, they're worth it to us, they're an AAU Flagship in a 10.5m population state, and they're a Basketball Blue Blood. Duke? T1 Academics, $13b endowment, Basketball Blue Blood. You can get behind that. But NC St has nothing to hang their hat on. Avg sized football stadium. Avg attendance. Avg (for M2) tv numbers. Avg fanbase. Somewhat below avg Athletic revenues and spending. They're a poor man's Virginia Tech.

(01-20-2024 01:24 AM)EdwordL Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 11:01 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Arizona St President/AD were disrespectful towards the move to the Big XII in interviews. It was a big storyline at the time, and their unprofessionalism in interviews was highly criticized.

AZ St Pres showed his tech ignorance by describing the basics of streaming as though he were speaking of some futuristic technology. The AD said he would never set foot in Morgantown and later resigned, so I guess he really meant it. Perhaps he'll go back to being a sports agent and get Herm Edwards another HC position.

Kansas got Remy Martin, who stirred the drink in our 2022 championship run, so I guess we ought to welcome them, despite their looking down on KU from their recent ascent to the AAU, even though KU has been AAU since 1909. We fans are looking forward to playing Arizona (we owe them for taking a national championship from Paul Pierce and Raef LaFrentz in 1997) and both programs are ascendant in football. I don't know if Utah will ever admit to actually being a member of our conference. Reading remarks of Kyle Whittingham, whom I have always respected, I got the impression Utah will play in our conference without actually looking at us; his remarks sounded as though he expects an invitation to the Big Ten in the very near future, or he was just trying to encourage the fanbase not to give up or give in. Hoping that Colorado will feel welcomed.

Everyone in the Big 12 is "hoping" for a P2 love letter, but it's hard to see many getting one. The most desirable are probably Kansas, Colorado and ASU, with Ok St and Arizona heading up that next tier, but none of them really has much hope for now. Utah is the 1A school in an isolated 3m population state that has been pretty good but not great in football for a while now. There's a long line of schools ahead of them from both the Big 12 and ACC if the B1G decides to start gobbling up more schools.

(01-20-2024 06:24 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-20-2024 12:31 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-20-2024 12:09 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 11:42 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 07:20 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  OU could have joined with A&M. However, their President, a former Oklahoma Governor, refused to leave without OSU. The SEC passed, and waited.

If I were a UNC fan, I'd be fighting this legislation. It forces you to only have one Conference option and hope that the SEC will suddenly decide that money doesn't matter.

From the SEC perspective, I think that we'd like all 4 of Clemson/UNC/FSU/Miami, but if we only can get 2 of them then that would be fine, too. Let UNC die on the vine for a decade or 2 and see if they change their minds. Any of the other 3 would be more likely to bring in additional revenue in the short or medium term than UNC, anyway.

Ummm….I guess you don’t know much about the ACC.

UNC is like Texas of the ACC. They (ane their fans) won’t fight the legislation just to get into the BIG or the SEC.

That's funny because Texas was blocked from joining the Big 8 with just A&M due to political interference in the '90s, and they were in fact stuck with Texas Tech and Barely (and later TCU) for over 25 years after the end of the SWC. If UNC was "like Texas" then they'd work hard to be shed of schools like NC St, or at least be allowed to make their own decision on their Conference.

I would argue that UNC has some similarities to Texas, but they also bring in about half as much athletics revenue. UNC would in fact be very near the bottom in Athletics revenue if they were to join tomorrow and immediately get full SEC shares from day 1. Sure, they're cocky as an institution and their grads are also cocky, but that's kind of the point of inviting only flagships (or near-flagships). Everyone in the SEC is like that.

“Schools like NC State”?!? NC State is the engineering/ag school of the UNC system. The universities work together. This isn’t Texas where there are like 15 different university systems with governors and senators lobbying for conference inclusion lol

Schools like NC St, as in schools that aren't the "flagship" and are not even a clear #2 in their own region, get a little over 2m eyeballs avg in their best games each year, schools that have stadium capacity and/or attendance in the 40-60k range, and raise money and spend towards the lower end of their own conference. ie, I was commenting on their fitness for discussion for SEC membership financially, not their curriculum.

NC St looks a lot like Ok St, Texas Tech, UH, Baylor, Iowa St, and others that OUT, Missouri and A&M left behind. They're not elite Academically, either. It's tough to see why we'd want to replace a bunch of middle of the pack schools in our own neighborhood for middle of the pack schools 1200 miles away. UNC? Yeah, they're worth it to us, they're an AAU Flagship in a 10.5m population state, and they're a Basketball Blue Blood. Duke? T1 Academics, $13b endowment, Basketball Blue Blood. You can get behind that. But NC St has nothing to hang their hat on. Avg sized football stadium. Avg attendance. Avg (for M2) tv numbers. Avg fanbase. Somewhat below avg Athletic revenues and spending. They're a poor man's Virginia Tech.

bolded - "Looks a lot like"... to you.

I've been as much a proponent of OK State to the SEC as anyone, but I just don't think you can compare the situation with OK State with NC State.

Different state, different market, different academics level, just different circumstances.

If you don't want them, well, that's fair, we all have our opinions.

But if the SEC is going to 20 (which is one of the possibilities laid out), then I think FSU/Clemson/NC/NC State, are not a bad grouping.

And one other thing...

Everyone has seen what happens when you join a conference without another school you have a history with (looks at Nebraska). If the SEC wants to add NC as a successful school, being aware of that is in their interest.

(01-20-2024 07:32 AM)Skyhawk Wrote:  

(01-20-2024 06:24 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-20-2024 12:31 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-20-2024 12:09 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 11:42 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  Ummm….I guess you don’t know much about the ACC.

UNC is like Texas of the ACC. They (ane their fans) won’t fight the legislation just to get into the BIG or the SEC.

That's funny because Texas was blocked from joining the Big 8 with just A&M due to political interference in the '90s, and they were in fact stuck with Texas Tech and Barely (and later TCU) for over 25 years after the end of the SWC. If UNC was "like Texas" then they'd work hard to be shed of schools like NC St, or at least be allowed to make their own decision on their Conference.

I would argue that UNC has some similarities to Texas, but they also bring in about half as much athletics revenue. UNC would in fact be very near the bottom in Athletics revenue if they were to join tomorrow and immediately get full SEC shares from day 1. Sure, they're cocky as an institution and their grads are also cocky, but that's kind of the point of inviting only flagships (or near-flagships). Everyone in the SEC is like that.

“Schools like NC State”?!? NC State is the engineering/ag school of the UNC system. The universities work together. This isn’t Texas where there are like 15 different university systems with governors and senators lobbying for conference inclusion lol

Schools like NC St, as in schools that aren't the "flagship" and are not even a clear #2 in their own region, get a little over 2m eyeballs avg in their best games each year, schools that have stadium capacity and/or attendance in the 40-60k range, and raise money and spend towards the lower end of their own conference. ie, I was commenting on their fitness for discussion for SEC membership financially, not their curriculum.

NC St looks a lot like Ok St, Texas Tech, UH, Baylor, Iowa St, and others that OUT, Missouri and A&M left behind. They're not elite Academically, either. It's tough to see why we'd want to replace a bunch of middle of the pack schools in our own neighborhood for middle of the pack schools 1200 miles away. UNC? Yeah, they're worth it to us, they're an AAU Flagship in a 10.5m population state, and they're a Basketball Blue Blood. Duke? T1 Academics, $13b endowment, Basketball Blue Blood. You can get behind that. But NC St has nothing to hang their hat on. Avg sized football stadium. Avg attendance. Avg (for M2) tv numbers. Avg fanbase. Somewhat below avg Athletic revenues and spending. They're a poor man's Virginia Tech.

bolded - "Looks a lot like"... to you.

I've been as much a proponent of OK State to the SEC as anyone, but I just don't think you can compare the situation with OK State with NC State.

Different state, different market, different academics level, just different circumstances.

If you don't want them, well, that's fair, we all have our opinions.

But if the SEC is going to 20 (which is one of the possibilities laid out), then I think FSU/Clemson/NC/NC State, are not a bad grouping.

And one other thing...

Everyone has seen what happens when you join a conference without another school you have a history with (looks at Nebraska). If the SEC wants to add NC as a successful school, being aware of that is in their interest.

A&M and Missouri barely had any history together, we've only played each other 16 times total, and yet we both have thrived in the SEC. If UNC is unable to thrive in the SEC with Miami, FSU or Clemson as a partner, rather than little brother NC St from down the road, then perhaps they're not a good fit for the SEC, after all.

When I say "looks a lot like" Ok St, I think that the comparison is obvious. The people making these decisions are primarily concerned about the financial bottom line impact to the Conference of adding a school. NC St would be a negative for the SEC, and Ok St would hurt our bottom line by roughly the same amount.

(01-19-2024 07:09 PM)mj4life Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 07:01 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 06:57 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  https://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc-system.../21244582/


North Carolina or NC State won't be able to leave the ACC without approval from the UNC System president and its board of governors under a proposal to be considered by the board next week.

The policy change would allow either the president or the board of governors to stop a conference change. It comes at a time when Florida State is challenging the conference in court and the biggest brands in college athletics are concentrating in two major conferences — the SEC and the Big Ten.

An initial draft of the policy change was first considered in October. It would have given the president "the opportunity to weigh in."

The current version gives the president and board explicit power to approve or thwart a move.

...

"I really think Carolina and State ought to be in the same conference," said House Speaker Tim Moore, R-Cleveland. "I really think they ought to do that. And I think you’d have a lot of resistance to seeing them split off in different conferences."

Said Senate leader Phil Berger, R-Rockingham: "There is something about the rivalries that exist that i think would be damaged if we have the larger schools within North Carolina in different conferences. I would not like to see that happen. Whether or not that’s something that would be appropriate for the legislature to step in or not, I have not really thought about it that way."

This potentially has very significant implications. If the B10 doesn't want NCSU, UNC's only possible P2 destination is the SEC.

ESPN is certainly not in a rush. So if that happens, I would expect the earliest to be 2033 when the SEC's media contract expires.

Meh. Perhaps the law passes, perhaps not. But with no B1G interest in NC St at all, the SEC could just send out "cut loose NC St" smoke signals and UNC would be able to control their own destiny if they have the political clout to do so. We made OU cut Ok St loose, after all, and OU is a bigger overall Brand than UNC while Ok St is at least as strong as (and probably a bit more desirable than" NC St.

This is like a Conference realignment poison pill. It doesn't help NC St any, but it does make UNC's path murkier.

Nothing new to those who understand the political nature of the UNC System. The President/BOG /State Government will have major influence over UNC/NCSU & their conference affiliation. Doesn't matter what the B1G or SEC thinks about it

I agree.

But on the other hand, I don't think the B1G or SEC would care. IMO, if somehow UNC and NCST came on the market in a chaotic situation like the PAC last year, both would want UNC, but not at the price of taking NC State, so the state would IMO likely face the choice of seeing both sink in a dying ACC, or UNC getting a safe haven in the SEC or B1G.

IMO it is kind of like Oklahoma and Oklahoma State. IIRC, before it happened, some said that OU might not be allowed to leave OK State behind. Then they left them behind. I would expect the same here, but maybe we'll see.

Interesting little nugget at the very end of the article:

"The proposed changes to the policy would also require schools to provide grant of rights agreements, TV rights agreements and name, image and likeness contracts to the board if such agreements are "accessible to the constituent institution." Until recently, the ACC kept its grant of rights agreement in its office in Greensboro and member schools did not have a copy of it."

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

(01-20-2024 07:51 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 07:09 PM)mj4life Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 07:01 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 06:57 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  https://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc-system.../21244582/


North Carolina or NC State won't be able to leave the ACC without approval from the UNC System president and its board of governors under a proposal to be considered by the board next week.

The policy change would allow either the president or the board of governors to stop a conference change. It comes at a time when Florida State is challenging the conference in court and the biggest brands in college athletics are concentrating in two major conferences — the SEC and the Big Ten.

An initial draft of the policy change was first considered in October. It would have given the president "the opportunity to weigh in."

The current version gives the president and board explicit power to approve or thwart a move.

...

"I really think Carolina and State ought to be in the same conference," said House Speaker Tim Moore, R-Cleveland. "I really think they ought to do that. And I think you’d have a lot of resistance to seeing them split off in different conferences."

Said Senate leader Phil Berger, R-Rockingham: "There is something about the rivalries that exist that i think would be damaged if we have the larger schools within North Carolina in different conferences. I would not like to see that happen. Whether or not that’s something that would be appropriate for the legislature to step in or not, I have not really thought about it that way."

This potentially has very significant implications. If the B10 doesn't want NCSU, UNC's only possible P2 destination is the SEC.

ESPN is certainly not in a rush. So if that happens, I would expect the earliest to be 2033 when the SEC's media contract expires.

Meh. Perhaps the law passes, perhaps not. But with no B1G interest in NC St at all, the SEC could just send out "cut loose NC St" smoke signals and UNC would be able to control their own destiny if they have the political clout to do so. We made OU cut Ok St loose, after all, and OU is a bigger overall Brand than UNC while Ok St is at least as strong as (and probably a bit more desirable than" NC St.

This is like a Conference realignment poison pill. It doesn't help NC St any, but it does make UNC's path murkier.

Nothing new to those who understand the political nature of the UNC System. The President/BOG /State Government will have major influence over UNC/NCSU & their conference affiliation. Doesn't matter what the B1G or SEC thinks about it

I agree.

But on the other hand, I don't think the B1G or SEC would care. IMO, if somehow UNC and NCST came on the market in a chaotic situation like the PAC last year, both would want UNC, but not at the price of taking NC State, so the state would IMO likely face the choice of seeing both sink in a dying ACC, or UNC getting a safe haven in the SEC or B1G.

IMO it is kind of like Oklahoma and Oklahoma State. IIRC, before it happened, some said that OU might not be allowed to leave OK State behind. Then they left them behind. I would expect the same here, but maybe we'll see.

It took OU decades to leave Ok St behind. It took A&M 20 years to join the SEC. It took Texas nearly 30 to finally leave the little guys behind. It took Missouri 5 minutes. Sometimes, you're just in the right place at the right time, and everything clicks, and that almost happened to NC St a dozen years ago. If NC St had joined with us then I'd be happy to have them in the SEC and I'm sure they'd be a credit to the league, but with so many better options potentially available these days, I fear that their big chance has passed them by. With or without Political intervention on their behalf.

I don't know if this has been said or not, but don't be surprised if the same thing happens to Virginia and Virginia Tech.

(01-20-2024 05:09 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-20-2024 12:26 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-20-2024 12:03 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 11:23 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 10:23 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  A&M and OUT didn't leave a bunch of NC St-like schools only to vote them in at the first opportunity in the SEC. Perhaps ESPN will take factors other than ratings into consideration, and certainly the SEC would take more than just football ratings into account for UNC, but from where I sit, NC St looks a whole lot like Baylor and quite a bit less-desirable than Ok St. And if it takes both UNC and NC St to get the entire State of North Carolina b/c UNC is worth less than we thought, then I think we just skip over them. We could take Miami and Colorado and achieve dominance in 2 large-population, growing and talent-rich regions and just never invite UNC. If you'd asked me that a decade ago I would have said there was no way we'd ever pass on UNC, but the times they are a-changin'.

https://sicem365.com/s/13048/how-many-vi...am-attract

I still maintain that laws like this play really well with citizens and cost the politicians nothing, but when/if UNC actually misses out on the SEC (or B1G) and turns into a long-term 2nd class school because of the law, then it will either be quickly changed or the BoR will just decide to allow the move to happen.

If we take 2 schools in North Carolina then it will be UNC and Duke, and it will be because we want to improve our Basketball and Academic credentials. Duke is a blue blood in a major and growing sport and T1 Academically. UNC is a blue blood + a Flagship. NC St is the school where the kids who can't get into UNC or Duke end up. How many SEC or B1G schools are 2nd or, really 3rd best in their own region? Hint: zero. And if it takes 2 schools to achieve dominance in a State with only 10m people, well...perhaps they're both better off in the ACC, anyway.

Who is "we"? Do you work for the SEC or are you a university president there?

Colorado is a terrible example. A house on stilts until Prime leaves. These should be long term moves. We've seen where rash "market grab" moves have created an albatross which is eating up a portion of the pie.

Your little graphs have NC State ahead of Carolina (lol but you love "us"), Purdue, Illinois, Rutgers, and Maryland. And those programs have the benefit of routinely playing ratings behemoths. If NC State and Carolina were in the SEC, would their viewership not go up?

The selling point for UNC and NC St is that North Carolina as a State is adjacent to the SEC footprint, it's growing rapidly, and it is a very desirable direction to expand. However, Colorado is also adjacent to the SEC footprint, it's also growing rapidly, and it's also a desirable expansion direction for us. Colorado has the added benefit of bringing the entire State all by themselves instead of needing a buddy, they're AAU, and they have a very long history with Missouri and OU (and somewhat shorter history with A&M and Texas). I do not regard last season's CU ratings as sustainable, and I think that UNC's blue blood status in basketball trumps CU's overall stature, but CU is far more desirable than NC St. If the SEC had the choice of CU + any of Miami/FSU/Clemson, then that would be enormously more desirable than UNC + NC St. I strongly believe that if our choice was just to take both UNC and NC St or take neither of them, that we would choose neither.

You might not know this, but many fans of schools/pro teams/the SEC use "We" when talking about their favored institution.

Yeah, I was just giving you crap because of how authoritative you come off. I doubt you saw Missouri coming as an SEC partner, and I doubt your graphs would have backed it up.

The point is, Colorado ain’t joining the SEC. No way, no how. Ratings aside. Have you been to Boulder? I’m surprised they let Prime practice Christianity in public.

The SEC is more than Alabama and Tennessee. As I stated above, 1/4 of the full 16 team SEC spent time in a conference with Colorado.

Boulder is incredibly nice. Is it more liberal than Athens or Gainesville? Sure, but it's no more liberal than Austin. There's a lot that the decision-makers can put up with if a school brings the Bacon. Would most of us PREFER UNC and some other ACC schools? Of course. But that doesn't mean that our only potential growth vector these days is "Northeasterly".

I knew you were messing with me, I was just politely messing back. I use the "We" for the SEC b/c my school overwhelmingly favors membership and A&M sees the SEC as our forever home. I'm sure that, up until quite recently, UNC felt much the same about the ACC, and I'm certain that it's uncomfortable to consider the unraveling or at least significant weakening of the ACC after so much time there as a member. At least you can take solace with the fact that UNC spent over a decade with 10 SEC members in the SoCon back in the 20s and early 30s.

I feel VERY strongly that Colorado will never join the SEC. Let's just leave it at that. It's much more likely they end up in the Big Ten. Lots of recency bias packed into your posts, and not just this one.

Carolina wants more money and to remain in the ACC point blank period. That's it. In the grand history of the conference, going back to my grandfather's days, FSU is not what makes the ACC. Miami is not what makes the ACC. Notre Dame is not what makes the ACC. Clemson leaving would be lamented as they are a founding member and post-SAT rule have been the leading football program.

It might be uncomfortable for you to admit that the SEC is much more likely to take Carolina and State as a package than the Big Ten. As I showcased earlier, the Big Ten can't afford any more experiments like low ratings Rutgers and Maryland, when they already have Illinois, Northwestern, Indiana, and Purdue as well. That's why I laugh when people suggest Virginia or Duke to the Big Ten.

I can go into why the ACC is by far the best fit, but it seems like it never sinks in with you, so if you so choose, you can look up the small collection of posts I've written addressing this topic. If it comes down to it, the SEC makes more sense than the Big Ten from our perspective. I've written extensively about this as well. Feel free to research the topic on your own.

(01-20-2024 06:24 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-20-2024 12:31 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-20-2024 12:09 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 11:42 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 07:20 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  OU could have joined with A&M. However, their President, a former Oklahoma Governor, refused to leave without OSU. The SEC passed, and waited.

If I were a UNC fan, I'd be fighting this legislation. It forces you to only have one Conference option and hope that the SEC will suddenly decide that money doesn't matter.

From the SEC perspective, I think that we'd like all 4 of Clemson/UNC/FSU/Miami, but if we only can get 2 of them then that would be fine, too. Let UNC die on the vine for a decade or 2 and see if they change their minds. Any of the other 3 would be more likely to bring in additional revenue in the short or medium term than UNC, anyway.

Ummm….I guess you don’t know much about the ACC.

UNC is like Texas of the ACC. They (ane their fans) won’t fight the legislation just to get into the BIG or the SEC.

That's funny because Texas was blocked from joining the Big 8 with just A&M due to political interference in the '90s, and they were in fact stuck with Texas Tech and Barely (and later TCU) for over 25 years after the end of the SWC. If UNC was "like Texas" then they'd work hard to be shed of schools like NC St, or at least be allowed to make their own decision on their Conference.

I would argue that UNC has some similarities to Texas, but they also bring in about half as much athletics revenue. UNC would in fact be very near the bottom in Athletics revenue if they were to join tomorrow and immediately get full SEC shares from day 1. Sure, they're cocky as an institution and their grads are also cocky, but that's kind of the point of inviting only flagships (or near-flagships). Everyone in the SEC is like that.

“Schools like NC State”?!? NC State is the engineering/ag school of the UNC system. The universities work together. This isn’t Texas where there are like 15 different university systems with governors and senators lobbying for conference inclusion lol

Schools like NC St, as in schools that aren't the "flagship" and are not even a clear #2 in their own region, get a little over 2m eyeballs avg in their best games each year, schools that have stadium capacity and/or attendance in the 40-60k range, and raise money and spend towards the lower end of their own conference. ie, I was commenting on their fitness for discussion for SEC membership financially, not their curriculum.

NC St looks a lot like Ok St, Texas Tech, UH, Baylor, Iowa St, and others that OUT, Missouri and A&M left behind. They're not elite Academically, either. It's tough to see why we'd want to replace a bunch of middle of the pack schools in our own neighborhood for middle of the pack schools 1200 miles away. UNC? Yeah, they're worth it to us, they're an AAU Flagship in a 10.5m population state, and they're a Basketball Blue Blood. Duke? T1 Academics, $13b endowment, Basketball Blue Blood. You can get behind that. But NC St has nothing to hang their hat on. Avg sized football stadium. Avg attendance. Avg (for M2) tv numbers. Avg fanbase. Somewhat below avg Athletic revenues and spending. They're a poor man's Virginia Tech.

"You" as in Texas, TAMU, and Oklahoma are a small minority in the SEC. You'll do what you're told, like vote in Texas—kicking and screaming lol

You're still missing the point of the uniqueness of North Carolina higher education. It's like the article posted here doesn't fit into your worldview so you deny it.

(01-19-2024 08:56 PM)esayem Wrote:  Of course this thread is derailed by know-it-alls who know absolutely nothing about UNC, NC politics, and the general state of college athletics in NC.

• Stop bringing up Oklahoma and Oklahoma State. This is a totally different situation with their own governance and has nothing to do with the UNC system.

• The UC system might be a bit similar, but California could be its own country with its own politics which don't emphasize athletics quite the way we do on Tobacco Road. Plus, it's obvious UC Berkeley and UCLA don't have the same relationship—culturally or otherwise—as Carolina and State. The lack of synergy was evident in summer 2022.

• We just saw Arizona State get dragged kicking and screaming into the Big XII. Anyone want to cite that example? Their PTB were very vocal the entire time while people here blew it off.

• Are there some people that want Carolina in the SEC? Sure. Big Ten? Sure. ACC? Absolutely. Are there people high up that actually pull strings that want Carolina and State to remain together? Definitely.

• Adding Carolina and State is the ONLY way a conference gets the entire state. It's more like the power of having Texas and TAMU together than Ohio State and Cincinnati. It's more like Indiana and Purdue vs Georgia and Georgia Tech. People, you just have to trust me on this lol... I might know a liiiiitle bit more about it than you.

Esayem, you have more knowledge than 99% of the posters on this board.

(01-20-2024 05:59 AM)RUScarlets Wrote:  To get this back on track, if the vote passes and UNC/NCSU are tied at the hip athletically, I don’t see the SEC taking them both, without FSU Clemson at least. Even then, Duke would better counterbalance the football. If the SEC doesn’t like both as a pair, they could turn their eyes to FSU once again and ESPN may make amends.

It certainly changes the calculus a bit for FSU as the B1G would not be automatic. But I don’t think the ACC can be killed off if UNC and UVa are tied to their little brothers. That’s a nice nucleus there. Still, I don’t see why the BoG would want to deny UNC its potential earnings outside the ACC.

First the only school in the country with a larger athletic Endowment than UNC is Stanford & that fund covers every scholarship on campus. The BOG/State could adjust certain laws that would allow UNC to operate more like a private University like the out of state cap that UNC could funnel into athletics for example

(01-19-2024 09:50 PM)ren.hoek Wrote:  

(01-19-2024 08:56 PM)esayem Wrote:  Of course this thread is derailed by know-it-alls who know absolutely nothing about UNC, NC politics, and the general state of college athletics in NC.

• Stop bringing up Oklahoma and Oklahoma State. This is a totally different situation with their own governance and has nothing to do with the UNC system.

• The UC system might be a bit similar, but California could be its own country with its own politics which don't emphasize athletics quite the way we do on Tobacco Road. Plus, it's obvious UC Berkeley and UCLA don't have the same relationship—culturally or otherwise—as Carolina and State. The lack of synergy was evident in summer 2022.

• We just saw Arizona State get dragged kicking and screaming into the Big XII. Anyone want to cite that example? Their PTB were very vocal the entire time while people here blew it off.

• Are there some people that want Carolina in the SEC? Sure. Big Ten? Sure. ACC? Absolutely. Are there people high up that actually pull strings that want Carolina and State to remain together? Definitely.

• Adding Carolina and State is the ONLY way a conference gets the entire state. It's more like the power of having Texas and TAMU together than Ohio State and Cincinnati. It's more like Indiana and Purdue vs Georgia and Georgia Tech. People, you just have to trust me on this lol... I might know a liiiiitle bit more about it than you.

it is a fact that Arizona State was not thrilled with joining the Big12. I count it as a colossal failure of Jim Phillips and ACC "leadership" that Arizona State isn't in the ACC. Given the chance, I'd think they'd consider the ACC with like minded schools (CaliStan, UNC, UVa, Duke, Miami, GT, etc.) and the ACC network. Utah might have a similar mind set.

AZ state and Utah may have gotten in ACC at 1/2 rate like Cal/Stanford.