(10-30-2023 11:01 AM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  Stanford was flying everywhere except for Cal anyway. A lot of their niche sports will stay in their niche conferences as the ACC doesn’t sponsor water polo. For sports like swimming they’ll only fly East for the conference meet and just do their own thing the rest of the year.

I wonder if we won't see a decoupling of almost everything in the conference format. I can't imagine there is a single conference that cares to have their tennis teams travel across the country solely because of the value of having football/basketball pairing off against those conference foes.

It hasn't been a strong point of emphasis, but it may be in highest level's interest to work towards that result.

Didn’t SMU broker a deal as part of getting invited to the ACC where the Bay Area schools would play Olympic sports in Dallas?

So if Stanford and Duke are playing women’s tennis then I don’t see the big deal if they’re meeting in Dallas.

(10-30-2023 11:27 AM)Sicembear11 Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 11:01 AM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  Stanford was flying everywhere except for Cal anyway. A lot of their niche sports will stay in their niche conferences as the ACC doesn’t sponsor water polo. For sports like swimming they’ll only fly East for the conference meet and just do their own thing the rest of the year.

I wonder if we won't see a decoupling of almost everything in the conference format. I can't imagine there is a single conference that cares to have their tennis teams travel across the country solely because of the value of having football/basketball pairing off against those conference foes.

It hasn't been a strong point of emphasis, but it may be in highest level's interest to work towards that result.

Whether any conference claims that it’s a good thing or not, it’s pretty glaringly and 1000% clear that they will chose to do so solely because of football and basketball.

If anything, it’s an objective financial barrier to entry to the top ranks similar to how the power conferences are the ones also pushing higher levels of funding and support for non-revenue sports for Division I overall. If everyone can just put every dollar into football and basketball, then that actually makes it easier for upstart schools and conferences to theoretically challenge the power conferences. In contrast, forcing those that want to join the power ranks to fund the sports that *don’t* make revenue is an objective way to limit the elite ranks in a way that *isn’t* about football/basketball revenue. It’s like those co-op boards in New York City where they want applicants to have a net worth several times the value of the apartment as opposed to someone who can afford it but would still need a conventional mortgage. The commitment to non-revenue sports is a way for a school to show its “net worth” to a conference and can tie it to equity goals, as well.

(10-30-2023 08:48 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  You've hit on a key challenge that private schools with FBS football face: Most of those universities offer modest enrollments and highly diverse students bodies, with many of the students (and alumni) simply not interested in college football.

Here in Nashville, Vanderbilt offers a significant percentage of Asian-American and international students. American football is, understandably, not part of the culture of many of these students (though many seemingly do enjoy basketball, which is, of course, an international sport). In addition, Vanderbilt offers a smallish enrollment (about 13,700).

Olympic sports are world sports. This is true by definition, really.

American football is a sport of strongly local interest. It doesn't travel well.

Basketball and futbol are global sports, though. Baseball and tennis are international. Wide appeal.

(10-29-2023 04:58 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  Anyone see the attendance at the Stanford game last night? 24,381

That was not starting at 7:30 pm and playing Washington versus Wake Forest or Boston College.

The Bay Area is the ultimate run with winners region of the country. Stanford has a relatively small alumni base and the alumni they do have can often care less about sports. In my extended family, I have two Stanford grads and neither are sports fans in the least.

The attendance and 7:30 pm ratings for the Stanford and Cal games in the ACC are going to be brutal.

There is no question that the attendance numbers are bad. In 2013, Stanford averaged 50,726 fans in their 50,424-seat stadium. 2017 was their last good season at 47,398. It would help if they were winning. If they were winning and fans were not showing up, then you could conclude that fans just won't show up no matter what the team is doing on the field.

As far as the ACC goes, they will be fine in that conference for football. Stanford has always had football talent. On the opening day rosters in the 2023 NFL, Clemson is the only ACC school with more NFL players than Stanford. The 2024 football recruiting class is good, with the No. 2 ranked QB in California headed to Stanford. Taylor needs his type of players to implement his wide-open, fast-paced offensive system at Stanford. In the meantime, Stanford lost at home to Oregon 42-6, and at home to UCLA, 42-7. This season is lost, and fan attendance will not get any better.

(10-30-2023 10:42 AM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  

(10-29-2023 04:58 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  Anyone see the attendance at the Stanford game last night? 24,381

That was not starting at 7:30 pm and playing Washington versus Wake Forest or Boston College.

The Bay Area is the ultimate run with winners region of the country. Stanford has a relatively small alumni base and the alumni they do have can often care less about sports. In my extended family, I have two Stanford grads and neither are sports fans in the least.

The attendance and 7:30 pm ratings for the Stanford and Cal games in the ACC are going to be brutal.

Um... Stanford wins the "Directors Cup" for overall NCAA Championships on a fairly frequent basis and they have one of the largest Athletics Departments in the NCAA.

Yes, Stanford spends tons of money fielding teams in sports that bring in no revenue and have no fan support. How did regularly winning the Director’s Cup work out? Right, Stanford was left out of the BIG sweepstakes. Meantime UC received an invite to the B12. Was that based on the success of your water polo team?

(10-30-2023 08:19 AM)Sparty Baby 84 Wrote:  I have a level beyond tremendous respect for Asian-Americans. But by and large they don't care about college football...

If football is part of the fabric of a community then people representing the full ethnic spectrum of the community will show up for games. If it isn't then people of all colors will be missing from the stands.

To illustrate the point here are some excerpts from the Hawaii versus Duquesne football game fan photo gallery:


















https://www.espnhonolulu.com/2022/09/18/...-duquesne/

Yeah, so I can only speak about what is going on in NJ. This state has realized huge immigration from Asia, Africa and South America. The municipalities that have absorbed the highest amount of immigrants have also seen the biggest drop off in participation rates for football and baseball from rec through high school. Most probably because those sports are American centric and not widely played in home countries. While soccer, basketball and tennis are all seeing big increases in participation and continue to gain popularity at all levels. Again, most probably because these are popular sports in home countries.

I do think that there is a direct correlation between the percentage of foreign students at a college and the popularity of all sports. Foreign students aren't here to assimilate and get that American college experience. They are academic mercanaries, here to get a degree and go home.

(10-29-2023 06:13 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(10-29-2023 04:58 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  The Bay Area is the ultimate run with winners region of the country...

The attendance and 7:30 pm ratings for the Stanford and Cal games in the ACC are going to be brutal.

Unless Stanford improves, of course. I mean you said it yourself.

Yes of course which the could do easily. Just grant graduating players admission into their grad programs. But it’s unlikely they make that change. Same with NIL and transfers.

(10-30-2023 10:42 AM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  

(10-29-2023 04:58 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  Anyone see the attendance at the Stanford game last night? 24,381

That was not starting at 7:30 pm and playing Washington versus Wake Forest or Boston College.

The Bay Area is the ultimate run with winners region of the country. Stanford has a relatively small alumni base and the alumni they do have can often care less about sports. In my extended family, I have two Stanford grads and neither are sports fans in the least.

The attendance and 7:30 pm ratings for the Stanford and Cal games in the ACC are going to be brutal.

Um... Stanford wins the "Directors Cup" for overall NCAA Championships on a fairly frequent basis and they have one of the largest Athletics Departments in the NCAA.

Yep and I can tell you as a person who attended many a water polo game at Stanford, the team is good, the fan support is pathetic. Even NCAA tournament games at Stanford routinely draw more fans from other schools than Stanford fans.

(10-30-2023 10:41 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 10:28 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  Uhhh... Is Washington not a quality opponent?

Institutional effort and quality opponents need to go hand in hand. Stanford hasn't won more than four games since the 2018 season and casual fans aren't paying top dollar to see teams lose. Drawing 24,380 for a 2-win team is not out of the realm of reality.

1. You do realize that's just 5 years ago?
2. Prior to that, they were winning 9/yr or more every year for a decade.
3. Stanford averaged 44,142 for football in 2016 when their record was 10-3, 47,398 in 2017 (9-5 record), and 49,914 in 2014 (8-5 record).

They win when they have a good coach - same as most teams.
They draw fans when they win - same as most teams.

(10-30-2023 08:46 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 08:39 AM)goofus Wrote:  The thing I wonder about is this trend could spread to other parts of the country. Could attendance for Big Ten games slip to 30k in 20 years? I mean what's the reason to go on a cold November day where you have to fight traffic and drunken fans where you could just stay home and watch on tv. Or a new trend I heard about, go to the local movie theater and watch the game there.

I think TVs are the biggest threat, combined with the nature of CFB media deals which is that basically every FBS game is available on your TV, either via cable or streaming at very little cost. Those are a lethal combination. Pro leagues avoid this in part by making the second aspect, seeing all the games, very expensive to do.

I mean, I just bought a 50" 4KTV, it cost me $230 with tax and delivery to my front door. That is just insane. The CFB games look great on it.

In 1998, I bought my first "wide screen" TV. It was 40", and was standard resolution, 480p. That cost $2300 shipped, which is about $4300 in today's dollars, and was a steal at the price, it was selling for $2800 at most places.

Quo, CFB is already starting to copy from the pros on this, IMO. A lot of colleges and universities have reduced their football stadium's capacities, making them much more expensive than they used to be, IMO.

(10-30-2023 07:53 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 08:19 AM)Sparty Baby 84 Wrote:  I have a level beyond tremendous respect for Asian-Americans. But by and large they don't care about college football...

If football is part of the fabric of a community then people representing the full ethnic spectrum of the community will show up for games. If it isn't then people of all colors will be missing from the stands.

To illustrate the point here are some excerpts from the Hawaii versus Duquesne football game fan photo gallery:


















https://www.espnhonolulu.com/2022/09/18/...-duquesne/

I should have went to college in Hawaii!! You have some real babes over there, Hawaii Mongoose!!!

(10-31-2023 09:39 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  Yeah, so I can only speak about what is going on in NJ. This state has realized huge immigration from Asia, Africa and South America. The municipalities that have absorbed the highest amount of immigrants have also seen the biggest drop off in participation rates for football and baseball from rec through high school. Most probably because those sports are American centric and not widely played in home countries. While soccer, basketball and tennis are all seeing big increases in participation and continue to gain popularity at all levels. Again, most probably because these are popular sports in home countries.

I do think that there is a direct correlation between the percentage of foreign students at a college and the popularity of all sports. Foreign students aren't here to assimilate and get that American college experience. They are academic mercanaries, here to get a degree and go home.

Some do, but some don't. I know of some foreign students at my alma mater, the University of Montevallo, that wound up becoming American cutizens.

(11-01-2023 11:30 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I should have went to college in Hawaii!! You have some real babes over there, Hawaii Mongoose!!!

I should know. I married one!

(11-01-2023 10:48 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 10:41 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 10:28 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  Uhhh... Is Washington not a quality opponent?

Institutional effort and quality opponents need to go hand in hand. Stanford hasn't won more than four games since the 2018 season and casual fans aren't paying top dollar to see teams lose. Drawing 24,380 for a 2-win team is not out of the realm of reality.

1. You do realize that's just 5 years ago?
2. Prior to that, they were winning 9/yr or more every year for a decade.
3. Stanford averaged 44,142 for football in 2016 when their record was 10-3, 47,398 in 2017 (9-5 record), and 49,914 in 2014 (8-5 record).

They win when they have a good coach - same as most teams.
They draw fans when they win - same as most teams.

Most P5 schools draw pretty well win or lose. Virginia Tech is certainly a good example of that.

(11-01-2023 01:53 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  

(11-01-2023 11:30 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I should have went to college in Hawaii!! You have some real babes over there, Hawaii Mongoose!!!

I should know. I married one!

Good for you, HMongoose. And good for your wife, because you are a classy gentleman who is one of this board's most respected posters.

And I agree fully with your point about Hawaii. American football is popular in Hawaii, so many of that state's multitude of Asian-Americans enjoy it and, as such, the Rainbow Warriors benefit related to attendance from those fans.

In contrast, Nashville/Vanderbilt is different (as you might know) related to Asian and Asian-American VU students' interest in football. I don't see as many of them in the stands for football games as I do for men's basketball games (which seem to be very popular for the Asian students). Of note, the Vanderbilt student body is about 16 percent Asian and Asian-American, according to the university.

https://as.vanderbilt.edu/news/2023/01/1...a-studies/

(11-01-2023 10:48 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 10:41 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 10:28 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  Uhhh... Is Washington not a quality opponent?

Institutional effort and quality opponents need to go hand in hand. Stanford hasn't won more than four games since the 2018 season and casual fans aren't paying top dollar to see teams lose. Drawing 24,380 for a 2-win team is not out of the realm of reality.

1. You do realize that's just 5 years ago?
2. Prior to that, they were winning 9/yr or more every year for a decade.
3. Stanford averaged 44,142 for football in 2016 when their record was 10-3, 47,398 in 2017 (9-5 record), and 49,914 in 2014 (8-5 record).

They win when they have a good coach - same as most teams.
They draw fans when they win - same as most teams.

They win when they can keep players all 5 years. What changed 5 years ago is Stanford stopped granting football players preferred access into their grad programs. As a result, with David Shaw’s blessing a ton of upper class man transferred out. As long as that continues it doesn’t matter who the coach they hired is.

(10-30-2023 07:53 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 08:19 AM)Sparty Baby 84 Wrote:  I have a level beyond tremendous respect for Asian-Americans. But by and large they don't care about college football...

If football is part of the fabric of a community then people representing the full ethnic spectrum of the community will show up for games. If it isn't then people of all colors will be missing from the stands.

To illustrate the point here are some excerpts from the Hawaii versus Duquesne football game fan photo gallery:


















https://www.espnhonolulu.com/2022/09/18/...-duquesne/

You point is true but what can also be true is the student is a foreign student who may stay or is as likely to return home. The more your student body is made up of foreigners the more likely they are to not care about American football. This phenomenon is different than a US born US Citizen Asian American.

(11-01-2023 03:45 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(11-01-2023 01:53 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  

(11-01-2023 11:30 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I should have went to college in Hawaii!! You have some real babes over there, Hawaii Mongoose!!!

I should know. I married one!

Good for you, HMongoose. And good for your wife, because you are a classy gentleman who is one of this board's most respected posters.

And I agree fully with your point about Hawaii. American football is popular in Hawaii, so many of that state's multitude of Asian-Americans enjoy it and, as such, the Rainbow Warriors benefit related to attendance from those fans.

In contrast, Nashville/Vanderbilt is different (as you might know) related to Asian and Asian-American VU students' interest in football. I don't see as many of them in the stands for football games as I do for men's basketball games (which seem to be very popular for the Asian students). Of note, the Vanderbilt student body is about 16 percent Asian and Asian-American, according to the university.

https://as.vanderbilt.edu/news/2023/01/1...a-studies/

Bill, thank you for the kind words.

I think mikeinsec127 (edit: and Sactowndog) make a good point. A big driver is whether the students are from abroad. Regardless of racial/ethnic background, if they're from a foreign country or are first-generation immigrants, it's unlikely that American football will be of great interest to them. They can identify more with basketball, soccer, or even baseball.

On the other hand, students whose families immigrated two or more generations ago are a lot more likely to have grown up watching and/or playing football and to have family members who did the same. Regardless of racial/ethnic background, kids who have had that experience will be fairly likely to attend football games.

The main reason you see so many Asian faces in the photos I posted is that Honolulu is full of Asian people whose families have been in the Islands for many decades. Their fathers and grandfathers played high school football here. They grew up tailgating in the Aloha Stadium parking lot before filing in to watch Timmy Chang or Colt Brennan throw touchdown passes. In Hawaii, football is part of the culture.