(10-30-2023 12:03 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 10:44 AM)bullet Wrote:  Reading it, it sounds like most of the lost seats come from adding handrails. they said that cut 2 seats per section. Guess its ADA requirements.

Interesting that they said the South end zone club seats hadn't been selling.

It says they're still learning how many total seats the handrail installation removes.

My take on the South End Zone is that the price was set too high for what the thing is, but if they go lower on price they don't make enough money to bother.

This is happening everywhere. Students and young families are increasingly watching games on television. Schools get network revenue shares for that. Stadium attendance is for the older and better off. They pay what it takes to be made comfortable, and they make booster donations if they have a good experience.

Don't get me wrong, that was an issue. Having the Taggart years followed by Covid didn't help things.

(10-30-2023 07:54 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 07:42 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 06:46 AM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  

(10-28-2023 06:41 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  One of the bullet point items was to “activate stadium beyond football”. I wonder what they have in mind?

Maybe they are trying to attract big name concerts.

That's gonna be difficult. Tallahassee is really far from any population centers. It's probably the most isolated town East of the Mississippi (other than some places up near the Canadian border).

You've never been to Homerville, Georgia. On the Okefenokee and Southwest of Waycross. That's isolated. And if you don't know what you are doing around the Swamp, it's dangerous. Many an old woman at the tame part of the park in Waycross has wondered where Fifi went and why the leash is snapped into. That part is clean with a greatly reduced presence of venomous snakes, an absence of the large red wasp nests in bushes just on the water's edge and hornets' nests in the trees. And folks in Homerville will laugh at your imperilment before they bail you out! Nice people but they don't get many outsiders. And the ones they get are a great source of entertainment to them.

Tallahassee is much less dangerous and isolated and really the only threat you'll find there are politicians and lawyers. And if those guys bother you the caves at Mariana aren't too far away.

But the politicians are only in town for 3 or so months. It's the lobbyists that are the folks to worry about year round.

Moderator move to renovation thread

(10-30-2023 12:12 PM)whittx Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 12:03 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  It says they're still learning how many total seats the handrail installation removes.

My take on the South End Zone is that the price was set too high for what the thing is, but if they go lower on price they don't make enough money to bother.

This is happening everywhere. Students and young families are increasingly watching games on television. Schools get network revenue shares for that. Stadium attendance is for the older and better off. They pay what it takes to be made comfortable, and they make booster donations if they have a good experience.

Don't get me wrong, that was an issue. Having the Taggart years followed by Covid didn't help things.

Florida State drew well on television through all of that.

The Doak renovations illustrate a national trend in stadium planning: more seating at the sides, less in end zones.

End zone seating has existed primarily to provide cheap seats for students and young families. The sight lines are terrible. For several decades, big Jumbotron scoreboards with video capability helped to ameliorate that problem for those fans.

Now people are watching on television. They are quite reasonably wondering why they should go to the trouble of attending a game if they're going to be watching every play on the big video anyway and have better televisions at home. At home they also have climate control and a nearby refrigerator and all the other comforts of home. Their own skybox, in effect.

End zones are increasingly becoming promenade spaces and food courts and whatnot. Stadium planners are still figuring out what works best. They already know the demand for 'cheap seats' is fading.

Covid no doubt has played a role in accelerating this trend. Videoconference tech and livestream tech evolved quickly to meet needs. People adapted. Now people everywhere are feeling less need to attend in person all kinds of events.

(10-30-2023 05:07 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  ....
Geography has a say, too. Most Seminole alumni live south of Tallahassee in populous cities. I recently shared here a list showing the hometowns of the 2023 football athletes and we see this reflected. The metropolitan area with the highest numerical representation on this year's team is Miami. The second is Tampa/Saint Pete. Florida State is a true state school that draws a lot of its students from urban areas.

Alumni who attend games in person at Doak typically arrive in Tallahassee after a drive or bus trip of five hours minimum (one way). For most the transit takes longer than that: six to twelve hours. For fans beholden to an employer five days a week, attending anything other than a Saturday night game takes some doing. The upshot? Those fans who are most likely to make the trip are those who are not so beholden to a boss that they can't start out early on Fridays and put their families in hotels. In other words, more affluent fans.
....

Two possibilities with the potential to change equations at Doak:

1. High-speed rail into Tallahassee
2. Departure of NFL Jaguars

(10-30-2023 01:37 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  Two possibilities with the potential to change equations at Doak:

1. High-speed rail into Tallahassee
2. Departure of NFL Jaguars

That would have been great in my days of driving from south of Tampa to Tallahassee. However....being as we still haven't gotten high-speed rail from Orlando to Tampa, it could be a looong wait.

(10-30-2023 01:41 PM)djsuperfly Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 01:37 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  Two possibilities with the potential to change equations at Doak:

1. High-speed rail into Tallahassee
2. Departure of NFL Jaguars

That would have been great in my days of driving from south of Tampa to Tallahassee. However....being as we still haven't gotten high-speed rail from Orlando to Tampa, it could be a looong wait.

Heck, Tally can't even get Amtrak to serve the city after Katrina.

(10-30-2023 01:29 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 12:12 PM)whittx Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 12:03 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  It says they're still learning how many total seats the handrail installation removes.

My take on the South End Zone is that the price was set too high for what the thing is, but if they go lower on price they don't make enough money to bother.

This is happening everywhere. Students and young families are increasingly watching games on television. Schools get network revenue shares for that. Stadium attendance is for the older and better off. They pay what it takes to be made comfortable, and they make booster donations if they have a good experience.

Don't get me wrong, that was an issue. Having the Taggart years followed by Covid didn't help things.

Florida State drew well on television through all of that.

The Doak renovations illustrate a national trend in stadium planning: more seating at the sides, less in end zones.

End zone seating has existed primarily to provide cheap seats for students and young families. The sight lines are terrible. For several decades, big Jumbotron scoreboards with video capability helped to ameliorate that problem for those fans.

Now people are watching on television. They are quite reasonably wondering why they should go to the trouble of attending a game if they're going to be watching every play on the big video anyway and have better televisions at home. At home they also have climate control and a nearby refrigerator and all the other comforts of home. Their own skybox, in effect.

End zones are increasingly becoming promenade spaces and food courts and whatnot. Stadium planners are still figuring out what works best. They already know the demand for 'cheap seats' is fading.

Covid no doubt has played a role in accelerating this trend. Videoconference tech and livestream tech evolved quickly to meet needs. People adapted. Now people everywhere are feeling less need to attend in person all kinds of events.

End zone seats aren't necessarily bad. Now the corners of the end zones tend to have views where it is difficult to tell what is going on. Did that play gain or lose yards?! The angles aren't good. But when you are straight on end zone, its not that bad. Now with the stadiums with tracks, those end zone seats were a LONG way from the field. Texas tore down their North horseshoe when they removed the track and squared it off.

(10-30-2023 01:41 PM)djsuperfly Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 01:37 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  Two possibilities with the potential to change equations at Doak:

1. High-speed rail into Tallahassee
2. Departure of NFL Jaguars

That would have been great in my days of driving from south of Tampa to Tallahassee. However....being as we still haven't gotten high-speed rail from Orlando to Tampa, it could be a looong wait.

It will happen. Brightline opened Miami-Orlando only last month.

https://www.gobrightline.com/press-room/...-and-miami

(10-30-2023 04:06 PM)whittx Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 01:41 PM)djsuperfly Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 01:37 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  Two possibilities with the potential to change equations at Doak:

1. High-speed rail into Tallahassee
2. Departure of NFL Jaguars

That would have been great in my days of driving from south of Tampa to Tallahassee. However....being as we still haven't gotten high-speed rail from Orlando to Tampa, it could be a looong wait.

Heck, Tally can't even get Amtrak to serve the city after Katrina.

Amtrak is not an apt comparison.

Chances are good that high-speed rail will eventually link Tallahassee to cities further south, I'd say. But it's still at least ten years off.

(10-31-2023 04:08 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 04:06 PM)whittx Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 01:41 PM)djsuperfly Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 01:37 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  Two possibilities with the potential to change equations at Doak:

1. High-speed rail into Tallahassee
2. Departure of NFL Jaguars

That would have been great in my days of driving from south of Tampa to Tallahassee. However....being as we still haven't gotten high-speed rail from Orlando to Tampa, it could be a looong wait.

Heck, Tally can't even get Amtrak to serve the city after Katrina.

Amtrak is not an apt comparison.

Chances are good that high-speed rail will eventually link Tallahassee to cities further south, I'd say. But it's still at least ten years off.

Its too far out into the future for me to wrap my head around it, but I don't yet see a reason to link it to Tallahassee when considering the distance and population unless its part of the agenda 2030 plan that will include people not owning cars.

(10-31-2023 06:36 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  

(10-31-2023 04:08 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 04:06 PM)whittx Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 01:41 PM)djsuperfly Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 01:37 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  Two possibilities with the potential to change equations at Doak:

1. High-speed rail into Tallahassee
2. Departure of NFL Jaguars

That would have been great in my days of driving from south of Tampa to Tallahassee. However....being as we still haven't gotten high-speed rail from Orlando to Tampa, it could be a looong wait.

Heck, Tally can't even get Amtrak to serve the city after Katrina.

Amtrak is not an apt comparison.

Chances are good that high-speed rail will eventually link Tallahassee to cities further south, I'd say. But it's still at least ten years off.

Its too far out into the future for me to wrap my head around it, but I don't yet see a reason to link it to Tallahassee when considering the distance and population unless its part of the agenda 2030 plan that will include people not owning cars.

Oh, I don't see what's to wrap one's head around. High-speed rail, aka 'bullet trains,' have been whooshing around on this planet for years and they're a hit everywhere they exist. They will be popular in the States, too, as soon as isolated Yanks find out what they've been missing.

Quiet, clean transportation. No traffic lights, no fuming at others on the road. Someone else does the driving while you work on your laptop, play games on your tablet, talk with your friends or catch a nap. You disembark, rested, with all your gadgets charged and the sun still high and plenty of time left in the day to do something worthwhile.

Make it a habit and you're just as mobile at age 99 as at 19.

And it makes for smart urban planning. Cars actually have a negative impact on mobility in cities. High-speed rail gets people in and out of the capital for work and play while letting Tallahassee keep its canopy roads.

A Gulf Coast route connecting, say, Houston and Jacksonville with stations in New Orleans and Tallahassee makes too much sense. Some business like Brightline will do that and link the line to routes going south into Orlando and Miami.

First, people need to experience these shorter, high-volume routes and see what it's like. That's the phase that's just begun. Demand will lead to more routes and wider coverage.

(10-31-2023 08:19 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(10-31-2023 06:36 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  

(10-31-2023 04:08 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 04:06 PM)whittx Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 01:41 PM)djsuperfly Wrote:  That would have been great in my days of driving from south of Tampa to Tallahassee. However....being as we still haven't gotten high-speed rail from Orlando to Tampa, it could be a looong wait.

Heck, Tally can't even get Amtrak to serve the city after Katrina.

Amtrak is not an apt comparison.

Chances are good that high-speed rail will eventually link Tallahassee to cities further south, I'd say. But it's still at least ten years off.

Its too far out into the future for me to wrap my head around it, but I don't yet see a reason to link it to Tallahassee when considering the distance and population unless its part of the agenda 2030 plan that will include people not owning cars.

Oh, I don't see what's to wrap one's head around. High-speed rail, aka 'bullet trains,' have been whooshing around on this planet for years and they're a hit everywhere they exist. They will be popular in the States, too, as soon as isolated Yanks find out what they've been missing.

Quiet, clean transportation. No traffic lights, no fuming at others on the road. Someone else does the driving while you work on your laptop, play games on your tablet, talk with your friends or catch a nap. You disembark, rested, with all your gadgets charged and the sun still high and plenty of time left in the day to do something worthwhile.

Make it a habit and you're just as mobile at age 99 as at 19.

And it makes for smart urban planning. Cars actually have a negative impact on mobility in cities. High-speed rail gets people in and out of the capital for work and play while letting Tallahassee keep its canopy roads.

A Gulf Coast route connecting, say, Houston and Jacksonville with stations in New Orleans and Tallahassee makes too much sense. Some business like Brightline will do that and link the line to routes going south into Orlando and Miami.

First, people need to experience these shorter, high-volume routes and see what it's like. That's the phase that's just begun. Demand will lead to more routes and wider coverage.

They can't get LA-San Fran built. Houston-Dallas, perhaps the best location for HSR outside the NE Amtrak corridors is on vapors. No way a line to Tallahassee gets built. Too expensive. Too few people. Too far from things. Jax-Orlando isn't even certain.

(10-31-2023 04:08 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 04:06 PM)whittx Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 01:41 PM)djsuperfly Wrote:  

(10-30-2023 01:37 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  Two possibilities with the potential to change equations at Doak:

1. High-speed rail into Tallahassee
2. Departure of NFL Jaguars

That would have been great in my days of driving from south of Tampa to Tallahassee. However....being as we still haven't gotten high-speed rail from Orlando to Tampa, it could be a looong wait.

Heck, Tally can't even get Amtrak to serve the city after Katrina.

Amtrak is not an apt comparison.

Chances are good that high-speed rail will eventually link Tallahassee to cities further south, I'd say. But it's still at least ten years off.

It's not, but Tallahassee's isolation won't help in getting a private company to invest in a line serving Tallahassee when lines from Orlando to Jacksonville, Tampa to Orlando, Tampa to Naples, and Jacksonville to Miami are more likely to happen first. Unless there is a HSR line parallel to I-10 from Jacksonville to New Orleans or Houston, a HSR connection probably won't happen in my lifetime. Just having Amtrak coming through 3 or 4 times a day would be so much better than nothing. I am a city planner by trade but recognize that short of massive investment at the state or federal level, coupled with limiting investments in interstates and state highways to maintainance and limited widening, unlike what we see in the American South.