(09-28-2023 07:10 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 06:24 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 09:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 08:32 PM)tf8693 Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 08:09 PM)bullet Wrote:  Notre Dame isn't that good in basketball. They don't raise the average any noticeable amount as the Big East is already really good in basketball.

I wasn't talking about on-court success. I was talking about name brand recognition. Simply put, Notre Dame brings eyeballs to TV screens. The effect may not be as significant for basketball as it is for football, but it's still there.

One certainly could argue, depending on the standard one is using, that Georgetown, UConn and Villanova have more historic success in basketball than ND. All have more NCAA championships than ND (who has zero) and more Final Four appearances than ND (on the other side, ND has more all-time wins than any of them, and, I believe, more NCAA tournament appearances than any of them, although I could be wrong about that.) But ND has a national name recognition that the others don't have, or at least, to a greater extent than the others have.

Not in basketball. Kentucky, Arizona, Kansas and Duke have dismal football ratings but great basketball ratings. North Carolina is lower half of P5 in football ratings but one of the best in basketball.

You're bringing up schools that aren't members of the Big East, and with the possible exception of Duke, would never become members of the Big East in any possible iteration of the real world. I think Notre Dame would improve TV ratings for the Big East in basketball. You apparently do not. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

More to the point, the Big East would take Notre Dame for basketball and Olympic sports within 2 seconds. I’m not sure where the narrative that the Catholic 7 supposedly wouldn’t have wanted them came from (as it wasn’t even applicable because the ND joined the ACC long before the C7 split off - part of the reason why the C7 split off was because ND *left*).

Bullet consistently takes anti-ND and anti-independence stances when the subject comes up.

This is just another example of it.

(09-28-2023 07:01 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 07:26 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’ve said for a long time now, the ideal next 2 Big 10 schools are Notre Dame and Miami.

ESPN is in a conundrum because it makes more financial sense to move the top ACC brands to the SEC but doing so weakens the ACC, and makes it a less tenable Olympic sports home for the Irish.

Where I differ from folks like Frank and Terry is that I don’t see independence as the end all and be all for the ND sport’s identity. ND football is:

High media value
National schedule
(Academically & Athletically) elite opponents

Independence has been a means to this end. With the Big 10’s east coast and now west coast expansions they can be all 3 of those things for Notre Dame.

A raided ACC can afford them football independence, but it’s not going to give them the other 3. So it comes down to is being independent so important that it’s worth letting the brand suffer?

Nope. It is truly independence in and of itself for Notre Dame. I know a ton of actual Domers: actual Notre Dame alums who give money to the school and know the administration and athletic department as opposed to non-alum subway fans. It is completely about independence. The only thing that could drive them away from it is if (a) they’re completely precluded from competing for the national championship by not being in a conference (not merely more difficult) or (b) the TV money becomes a serious disadvantage that is no longer compensated by the fact that so many ND alums give money to the school *contingent* upon them remaining independent. [b]ND’s funding is totally different than any other FBS school: their financial power comes from virtually all ND alums giving to the university collectively as opposed to being driven by a few boosters (just like the collective value of the flock tithing in the Catholic Church), so ND listens to their broader alumni base in a way that a lot of other schools don’t.

At the same time, how is ND’s brand going to suffer? They get their own national TV time slot with their own branding on NBC. How is being the 3rd brand in the Big Ten behind Ohio State and Michigan going to improve ND’s brand compared to being independent?

Once again, I’m arguing against my self-interest here. I’d LOVE to be able to sit here and say ND will end up in the Big Ten. It would be the ultimate power move for the league. However, it’s not happening. NBC will pay plenty of money to ND in a new contract.

Thank you again, Frank, for stating the obvious.

Some people like Muskie just don't "get" ND.

There are two facts at work here:

1) ND wants to stay a football independent forever and,

2) ND adamantly does not want to join the Big Ten, ever.


One of the great ironies of conference realignment is that the one school that the Big Ten covets more than any other is the one school not in a P2 conference that has no desire to be in the Big Ten and in fact recoils from it at every opportunity.


Fans of other schools like Muskie don't understand the ND mindset.

This leads them to try to substitute their own viewpoints on ND related subjects instead of realizing that ND's viewpoints are simply quite different than their own.

(09-28-2023 06:57 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 06:23 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 05:29 PM)tf8693 Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 04:55 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  The question is really what Notre Dame wants. More money doesn't seem to be a primary driver for them. They control themselves and Indy has been their calling card and preference for nearly 130 years...

Mostly, but not entirely true. ND actually applied for Big Ten membership twice, in 1909 and 1924. On both occasions they were blocked by Michigan, because Fielding Yost did not want a Catholic university (which was essentially Notre Dame's entire raison d'etre at the time) in his conference. Following the second rejection, ND committed itself to independence. The ND-USC series also originated after Michigan cancelled its series with ND.

Actually the president and faculty voted to join the Big 10 in the late 90s (1999?). But then the alumni revolted and the board voted it down.

The president didn't vote anything, only the faculty senate did because of the research issue. (not a sports related vote, at all)

The alumni and the Board of Trustees has the same attitude in 2023 as it had in 1999.

Since when did a faculty vote have any relevance to conference realignment?

I don’t know why you won’t admit there truth. The ND president and AD reached a deal to join the Big 10. The faculty was asked to then approve and they did. The alumni and trustees shut it down. Those are the facts. Now I agree Flugaur has nothing to do with facts and NBC will happily sign up ND as an independent

(09-28-2023 07:18 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 07:10 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 06:24 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 09:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 08:32 PM)tf8693 Wrote:  I wasn't talking about on-court success. I was talking about name brand recognition. Simply put, Notre Dame brings eyeballs to TV screens. The effect may not be as significant for basketball as it is for football, but it's still there.

One certainly could argue, depending on the standard one is using, that Georgetown, UConn and Villanova have more historic success in basketball than ND. All have more NCAA championships than ND (who has zero) and more Final Four appearances than ND (on the other side, ND has more all-time wins than any of them, and, I believe, more NCAA tournament appearances than any of them, although I could be wrong about that.) But ND has a national name recognition that the others don't have, or at least, to a greater extent than the others have.

Not in basketball. Kentucky, Arizona, Kansas and Duke have dismal football ratings but great basketball ratings. North Carolina is lower half of P5 in football ratings but one of the best in basketball.

You're bringing up schools that aren't members of the Big East, and with the possible exception of Duke, would never become members of the Big East in any possible iteration of the real world. I think Notre Dame would improve TV ratings for the Big East in basketball. You apparently do not. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

More to the point, the Big East would take Notre Dame for basketball and Olympic sports within 2 seconds. I’m not sure where the narrative that the Catholic 7 supposedly wouldn’t have wanted them came from (as it wasn’t even applicable because the ND joined the ACC long before the C7 split off - part of the reason why the C7 split off was because ND *left*).

Bullet consistently takes anti-ND and anti-independence stances when the subject comes up.

This is just another example of it.

How is it anti notre dame to say the Big East thinks Notre Dame is too good for it?

(09-28-2023 09:16 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 07:18 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 07:10 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 06:24 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 09:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  Not in basketball. Kentucky, Arizona, Kansas and Duke have dismal football ratings but great basketball ratings. North Carolina is lower half of P5 in football ratings but one of the best in basketball.

You're bringing up schools that aren't members of the Big East, and with the possible exception of Duke, would never become members of the Big East in any possible iteration of the real world. I think Notre Dame would improve TV ratings for the Big East in basketball. You apparently do not. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

More to the point, the Big East would take Notre Dame for basketball and Olympic sports within 2 seconds. I’m not sure where the narrative that the Catholic 7 supposedly wouldn’t have wanted them came from (as it wasn’t even applicable because the ND joined the ACC long before the C7 split off - part of the reason why the C7 split off was because ND *left*).

Bullet consistently takes anti-ND and anti-independence stances when the subject comes up.

This is just another example of it.

How is it anti notre dame to say the Big East thinks Notre Dame is too good for it?

It is not just this post, but a decade or more of posts, Bullet.

Regarding 1999, the faculty senate did vote in favor of the Big Ten. So what?

That vote was CIC based, not sports based.

The president didn't "vote", which led to my response to your post.

The faculty senate was irrelevant. No school moves in CR due to what the faculty wants.

The alumni and fans are still anti-Big Ten and pro-independence, 24 years later.

(09-28-2023 07:10 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 06:24 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 09:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 08:32 PM)tf8693 Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 08:09 PM)bullet Wrote:  Notre Dame isn't that good in basketball. They don't raise the average any noticeable amount as the Big East is already really good in basketball.

I wasn't talking about on-court success. I was talking about name brand recognition. Simply put, Notre Dame brings eyeballs to TV screens. The effect may not be as significant for basketball as it is for football, but it's still there.

One certainly could argue, depending on the standard one is using, that Georgetown, UConn and Villanova have more historic success in basketball than ND. All have more NCAA championships than ND (who has zero) and more Final Four appearances than ND (on the other side, ND has more all-time wins than any of them, and, I believe, more NCAA tournament appearances than any of them, although I could be wrong about that.) But ND has a national name recognition that the others don't have, or at least, to a greater extent than the others have.

Not in basketball. Kentucky, Arizona, Kansas and Duke have dismal football ratings but great basketball ratings. North Carolina is lower half of P5 in football ratings but one of the best in basketball.

You're bringing up schools that aren't members of the Big East, and with the possible exception of Duke, would never become members of the Big East in any possible iteration of the real world. I think Notre Dame would improve TV ratings for the Big East in basketball. You apparently do not. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

More to the point, the Big East would take Notre Dame for basketball and Olympic sports within 2 seconds. I’m not sure where the narrative that the Catholic 7 supposedly wouldn’t have wanted them came from (as it wasn’t even applicable because the ND joined the ACC long before the C7 split off - part of the reason why the C7 split off was because ND *left*).

Well . . . UConn might vote against ND joining the Big East. There is a vocal contingent of UConn's fanbase who blames ND's failure to join the Big East in football for the current state of UConn football, and UConn's administration might want to placate them. They'd be outvoted, though.

UConn's administration would vote for Notre Dame to join the Big East in 2 seconds.

(09-28-2023 09:20 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 09:16 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 07:18 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 07:10 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 06:24 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  You're bringing up schools that aren't members of the Big East, and with the possible exception of Duke, would never become members of the Big East in any possible iteration of the real world. I think Notre Dame would improve TV ratings for the Big East in basketball. You apparently do not. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

More to the point, the Big East would take Notre Dame for basketball and Olympic sports within 2 seconds. I’m not sure where the narrative that the Catholic 7 supposedly wouldn’t have wanted them came from (as it wasn’t even applicable because the ND joined the ACC long before the C7 split off - part of the reason why the C7 split off was because ND *left*).

Bullet consistently takes anti-ND and anti-independence stances when the subject comes up.

This is just another example of it.

How is it anti notre dame to say the Big East thinks Notre Dame is too good for it?

It is not just this post, but a decade or more of posts, Bullet.

Regarding 1999, the faculty senate did vote in favor of the Big Ten. So what?

That vote was CIC based, not sports based.

The president didn't "vote", which led to my response to your post.

The faculty senate was irrelevant. No school moves in CR due to what the faculty wants.

The alumni and fans are still anti-Big Ten and pro-independence, 24 years later.

I don't think Notre Dame should get special privileges. I think Notre Dame will be forced to eventually join a conference, just as Texas realized they had to join the SEC who they really didn't want to join. That's not anti-Notre Dame. That's anit-privilege. Why should Notre Dame be the one school who gets a vote in College Football Playoff? And I've said Notre Dame was the most valuable school in college football. Maybe today Ohio St. and Alabama have passed them (and Deion's team for this one season!), but Notre Dame is very close to the top without the success over the last quarter century that Ohio St. and Alabama have had. However, they aren't as valuable as a whole conference.

And I suspect the anti-Big 10 attitude is strongest among the older alumni, who faced anti-Irish and anti-Catholic discrimination. And the Irish/Catholic T-shirt fans are probably a lot fewer than 30 years ago as later generations get more assimilated and dispersed.

(09-28-2023 06:59 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  Flug, is it? Some of us are still waiting for our money perch.

Not ND, apparently. They're actively avoiding the highest money perch for more of a money rest stop.

(09-28-2023 07:18 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 07:10 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 06:24 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 09:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 08:32 PM)tf8693 Wrote:  I wasn't talking about on-court success. I was talking about name brand recognition. Simply put, Notre Dame brings eyeballs to TV screens. The effect may not be as significant for basketball as it is for football, but it's still there.

One certainly could argue, depending on the standard one is using, that Georgetown, UConn and Villanova have more historic success in basketball than ND. All have more NCAA championships than ND (who has zero) and more Final Four appearances than ND (on the other side, ND has more all-time wins than any of them, and, I believe, more NCAA tournament appearances than any of them, although I could be wrong about that.) But ND has a national name recognition that the others don't have, or at least, to a greater extent than the others have.

Not in basketball. Kentucky, Arizona, Kansas and Duke have dismal football ratings but great basketball ratings. North Carolina is lower half of P5 in football ratings but one of the best in basketball.

You're bringing up schools that aren't members of the Big East, and with the possible exception of Duke, would never become members of the Big East in any possible iteration of the real world. I think Notre Dame would improve TV ratings for the Big East in basketball. You apparently do not. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

More to the point, the Big East would take Notre Dame for basketball and Olympic sports within 2 seconds. I’m not sure where the narrative that the Catholic 7 supposedly wouldn’t have wanted them came from (as it wasn’t even applicable because the ND joined the ACC long before the C7 split off - part of the reason why the C7 split off was because ND *left*).

Bullet consistently takes anti-ND and anti-independence stances when the subject comes up.

This is just another example of it.

That's why he's so great and why shouldn't he take that stance? Oh right, that title in 1988.
ND operates outside the operations that 99% of all teams followsand is considered its own conference. Total looney tunes.

(09-28-2023 07:05 AM)esayem Wrote:  Let's analyze a couple current events and trends:

• Greater at-large playoff access

• ACC following ND's national expansion plan



Yet, this board started putting together ND-in-the-Big Ten fantasy structures because NBC "wants" them to join the Big Ten?! Guess what? ESPN wants them to join the ACC!! So what?

Not all of us think ND is imminently joining the B1G. I think that's a pipe dream. ND's playoff access is secure as long as the B1G and SEC are either courting them or trying to block them from joining the other, and for now the ACC also falls into that boat. Swarbrick has done a masterful job of playing the Conferences off against each other in order to maintain and even strengthen ND's independence.

(09-28-2023 07:05 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 06:23 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 05:29 PM)tf8693 Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 04:55 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  The question is really what Notre Dame wants. More money doesn't seem to be a primary driver for them. They control themselves and Indy has been their calling card and preference for nearly 130 years...

Mostly, but not entirely true. ND actually applied for Big Ten membership twice, in 1909 and 1924. On both occasions they were blocked by Michigan, because Fielding Yost did not want a Catholic university (which was essentially Notre Dame's entire raison d'etre at the time) in his conference. Following the second rejection, ND committed itself to independence. The ND-USC series also originated after Michigan cancelled its series with ND.

Was not aware of that. Thanks for sharing. Edit their Indy preference for nearly 100 years...

(09-27-2023 07:07 PM)tf8693 Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 06:50 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 06:43 PM)tf8693 Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 05:49 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  That's no dilemma, ND won't stay in the ACC if the top Brands leave. I actually think that they'd prefer the BE for their non-FB sports, with the Big 12 as the backup, but I'm not certain of that.

I think the dilemma might arise in the event of a minimal number of ACC teams defecting. Let's say that the SEC adds Florida State and Clemson, while the Big Ten adds North Carolina and Virginia. What does ND do if the remaining ACC members decide to stick together? If the Big Ten and SEC raids get a little more extensive, and the Big XII gets into the action, then it's a different story entirely.

As to your second sentence, I can't be sure about ND's Administration. I believe the majority of ND's fanbase would prefer the Big East to the Big XII. But money talks, and even a half share from the Big XII would be considerably more money than a full share from the Big East.

ND gets a 20% share from the ACC. Why would the Big 12 offer them a 50% share when they were looking for a lifeline? I'd think that 20% is the best that Yormark would offer them.

I've seen ND fans here (Terry? Maybe a couple others?) say that ND wouldn't want to stay in a neutered ACC. Just the loss of FSU/Clemson would be gut-wrenching but they might play out the GoR. Any more than that and ND would want to leave without a doubt.

More like a 30% share from the ACC. I think the actual number is around $11 million/year. A similar number from the Big XII would be roughly 2x a full share from the Big East.

And while this is only my personal opinion, I don't see that the ACC generally provides much in the way of quality football opponents beyond Florida State and Clemson. Other schools may have a good season from time to time, but not consistently. I also do enjoy ND playing Pitt, because of the history behind that series, and Syracuse, because a road game is close to home for me (although Syracuse made individual game tickets for that game nearly impossible to get last year.) Beyond that, I wouldn't shed a tear if ND never played another ACC team.

ND received $17.4 million from the ACC as per the latter's 2022 tax forms.

ND received $26 million from NBC as well, for a total of $43.4 million from all media/conference sources, including its full share of ACC Network profits.

It's 20% of the media rights agreement and 100% of ACCN money. So that % will increase for a few years, and it also explains why ND was pushing so hard for Calford and SMU. They'll benefit immensely from the turbocharged ACCN revenues.

(09-27-2023 07:26 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’ve said for a long time now, the ideal next 2 Big 10 schools are Notre Dame and Miami.

ESPN is in a conundrum because it makes more financial sense to move the top ACC brands to the SEC but doing so weakens the ACC, and makes it a less tenable Olympic sports home for the Irish.

Where I differ from folks like Frank and Terry is that I don’t see independence as the end all and be all for the ND sport’s identity. ND football is:

High media value
National schedule
(Academically & Athletically) elite opponents

Independence has been a means to this end. With the Big 10’s east coast and now west coast expansions they can be all 3 of those things for Notre Dame.

A raided ACC can afford them football independence, but it’s not going to give them the other 3. So it comes down to is being independent so important that it’s worth letting the brand suffer?

No, the ND thinking is centered around Having it's cake and eating it too. That's their complete raison d'etre.

(09-28-2023 07:18 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 07:10 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 06:24 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 09:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 08:32 PM)tf8693 Wrote:  I wasn't talking about on-court success. I was talking about name brand recognition. Simply put, Notre Dame brings eyeballs to TV screens. The effect may not be as significant for basketball as it is for football, but it's still there.

One certainly could argue, depending on the standard one is using, that Georgetown, UConn and Villanova have more historic success in basketball than ND. All have more NCAA championships than ND (who has zero) and more Final Four appearances than ND (on the other side, ND has more all-time wins than any of them, and, I believe, more NCAA tournament appearances than any of them, although I could be wrong about that.) But ND has a national name recognition that the others don't have, or at least, to a greater extent than the others have.

Not in basketball. Kentucky, Arizona, Kansas and Duke have dismal football ratings but great basketball ratings. North Carolina is lower half of P5 in football ratings but one of the best in basketball.

You're bringing up schools that aren't members of the Big East, and with the possible exception of Duke, would never become members of the Big East in any possible iteration of the real world. I think Notre Dame would improve TV ratings for the Big East in basketball. You apparently do not. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

More to the point, the Big East would take Notre Dame for basketball and Olympic sports within 2 seconds. I’m not sure where the narrative that the Catholic 7 supposedly wouldn’t have wanted them came from (as it wasn’t even applicable because the ND joined the ACC long before the C7 split off - part of the reason why the C7 split off was because ND *left*).

Bullet consistently takes anti-ND and anti-independence stances when the subject comes up.

This is just another example of it.

Bullet and I are natural born enemies. We rarely see eye to eye on any topic, but we post in a lot of the same threads, and I've never had the feeling that he was anti-ND or anti-Independent. Just b/c someone posts things that you disagree with doesn't automatically mean that person is out to get you or is somehow a threat to ND.

(09-28-2023 10:07 AM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 07:18 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 07:10 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 06:24 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 09:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  Not in basketball. Kentucky, Arizona, Kansas and Duke have dismal football ratings but great basketball ratings. North Carolina is lower half of P5 in football ratings but one of the best in basketball.

You're bringing up schools that aren't members of the Big East, and with the possible exception of Duke, would never become members of the Big East in any possible iteration of the real world. I think Notre Dame would improve TV ratings for the Big East in basketball. You apparently do not. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

More to the point, the Big East would take Notre Dame for basketball and Olympic sports within 2 seconds. I’m not sure where the narrative that the Catholic 7 supposedly wouldn’t have wanted them came from (as it wasn’t even applicable because the ND joined the ACC long before the C7 split off - part of the reason why the C7 split off was because ND *left*).

Bullet consistently takes anti-ND and anti-independence stances when the subject comes up.

This is just another example of it.

That's why he's so great and why shouldn't he take that stance? Oh right, that title in 1988.
ND operates outside the operations that 99% of all teams followsand is considered its own conference. Total looney tunes.

It’s not looney when looking at the interests of the conferences specifically.

Too many fans just look at ND needing to join “a” conference.

That’s not what the Big Ten, ACC or SEC want. Instead, they want ND to join *their* specific conference and, if that doesn’t happen, then they want ND to stay independent.

Neither the Big Ten nor SEC want ND to join the ACC because that would give their mutual regional competitor of the ACC the biggest brand in college football and create a P3.

Neither the ACC nor SEC want the Big Ten to get ND because that makes the Big Ten into an even bigger juggernaut.

That would be the same with why neither the ACC nor Big Ten would want ND to join the SEC and then turn the SEC into an even bigger juggernaut (although that would be the wackiest marriage of them all).

The point is that everyone would rather have ND stay independent forever than to join a competing conference. As a result, the powers that be continue to work with ND and always make exceptions for them: it’s in the rational self-interests of all of those leagues to do so.

This clown spewing nonsense again.

(09-28-2023 10:02 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 09:20 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 09:16 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 07:18 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 07:10 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  More to the point, the Big East would take Notre Dame for basketball and Olympic sports within 2 seconds. I’m not sure where the narrative that the Catholic 7 supposedly wouldn’t have wanted them came from (as it wasn’t even applicable because the ND joined the ACC long before the C7 split off - part of the reason why the C7 split off was because ND *left*).

Bullet consistently takes anti-ND and anti-independence stances when the subject comes up.

This is just another example of it.

How is it anti notre dame to say the Big East thinks Notre Dame is too good for it?

It is not just this post, but a decade or more of posts, Bullet.

Regarding 1999, the faculty senate did vote in favor of the Big Ten. So what?

That vote was CIC based, not sports based.

The president didn't "vote", which led to my response to your post.

The faculty senate was irrelevant. No school moves in CR due to what the faculty wants.

The alumni and fans are still anti-Big Ten and pro-independence, 24 years later.

I don't think Notre Dame should get special privileges. I think Notre Dame will be forced to eventually join a conference, just as Texas realized they had to join the SEC who they really didn't want to join. That's not anti-Notre Dame. That's anit-privilege. Why should Notre Dame be the one school who gets a vote in College Football Playoff? And I've said Notre Dame was the most valuable school in college football. Maybe today Ohio St. and Alabama have passed them (and Deion's team for this one season!), but Notre Dame is very close to the top without the success over the last quarter century that Ohio St. and Alabama have had. However, they aren't as valuable as a whole conference.

And I suspect the anti-Big 10 attitude is strongest among the older alumni, who faced anti-Irish and anti-Catholic discrimination. And the Irish/Catholic T-shirt fans are probably a lot fewer than 30 years ago as later generations get more assimilated and dispersed.

(09-28-2023 10:07 AM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 07:18 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 07:10 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 06:24 AM)tf8693 Wrote:  

(09-27-2023 09:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  Not in basketball. Kentucky, Arizona, Kansas and Duke have dismal football ratings but great basketball ratings. North Carolina is lower half of P5 in football ratings but one of the best in basketball.

You're bringing up schools that aren't members of the Big East, and with the possible exception of Duke, would never become members of the Big East in any possible iteration of the real world. I think Notre Dame would improve TV ratings for the Big East in basketball. You apparently do not. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

More to the point, the Big East would take Notre Dame for basketball and Olympic sports within 2 seconds. I’m not sure where the narrative that the Catholic 7 supposedly wouldn’t have wanted them came from (as it wasn’t even applicable because the ND joined the ACC long before the C7 split off - part of the reason why the C7 split off was because ND *left*).

Bullet consistently takes anti-ND and anti-independence stances when the subject comes up.

This is just another example of it.

That's why he's so great and why shouldn't he take that stance? Oh right, that title in 1988.
ND operates outside the operations that 99% of all teams followsand is considered its own conference. Total looney tunes.

Notre Dame took the chance to be privileged. They are not inherently privileged. If Ohio State wanted to go Independent and join the Big East for Olympic sports, does anyone here honestly believe they wouldn't get a fat football deal with FOX and a vote in playoff matters?

IMO, it looks extremely anti-ND considering this was the way many schools did it for decades (and longer considering radio). ND didn't conform to TV bundling, it's not their fault everyone else did.

(09-28-2023 10:02 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 09:20 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 09:16 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 07:18 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(09-28-2023 07:10 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  More to the point, the Big East would take Notre Dame for basketball and Olympic sports within 2 seconds. I’m not sure where the narrative that the Catholic 7 supposedly wouldn’t have wanted them came from (as it wasn’t even applicable because the ND joined the ACC long before the C7 split off - part of the reason why the C7 split off was because ND *left*).

Bullet consistently takes anti-ND and anti-independence stances when the subject comes up.

This is just another example of it.

How is it anti notre dame to say the Big East thinks Notre Dame is too good for it?

It is not just this post, but a decade or more of posts, Bullet.

Regarding 1999, the faculty senate did vote in favor of the Big Ten. So what?

That vote was CIC based, not sports based.

The president didn't "vote", which led to my response to your post.

The faculty senate was irrelevant. No school moves in CR due to what the faculty wants.

The alumni and fans are still anti-Big Ten and pro-independence, 24 years later.

I don't think Notre Dame should get special privileges. I think Notre Dame will be forced to eventually join a conference, just as Texas realized they had to join the SEC who they really didn't want to join. That's not anti-Notre Dame. That's anit-privilege. Why should Notre Dame be the one school who gets a vote in College Football Playoff? And I've said Notre Dame was the most valuable school in college football. Maybe today Ohio St. and Alabama have passed them (and Deion's team for this one season!), but Notre Dame is very close to the top without the success over the last quarter century that Ohio St. and Alabama have had. However, they aren't as valuable as a whole conference.

And I suspect the anti-Big 10 attitude is strongest among the older alumni, who faced anti-Irish and anti-Catholic discrimination. And the Irish/Catholic T-shirt fans are probably a lot fewer than 30 years ago as later generations get more assimilated and dispersed.

The thing about ND is that they're in the conversation for "most valuable", along with tOSU, UT, and Alabama. It's hard to differentiate between those 4, and whatever difference exists is very small, regardless. However, ND's only true rival is USC, and they don't need to be in a Conference together to play, nor do they need USC to recruit SoCal.

Looking at those other 3 schools... Bama has been part of the SEC and before that the SoCon for over 100 years. They have several VERY intense rivalries with nearby SEC members. tOSU is similar but with the B1G, and their rivalry with Michigan is legendary. Texas has moved Conferences a couple of times, but they have not 1 but 2 very intense rivals, both of whom would have benefited immensely if Texas went independent while the other 2 were in the SEC. ND has no fears of any of that. They don't need a Conference to help them recruit or to help them have enough money available to compete for National Titles, and without either of those needs, I personally think that they're actually better off as an Independent.

I agree that the anti-B1G sentiment is likely related to the anti-Catholic bias they've experienced over the past 100 years. Could you get by that? I think that I could if I absolutely had to, but if I had a choice, then I'd rather stick it to Michigan and the others and never join them.

Notre Dame will finally let go of Independence and join the BIG10 along with Virginia, Duke, Miami, Stanford and Cal….. in a few years.

(09-28-2023 10:44 AM)army56mike Wrote:  Notre Dame will finally let go of Independence and join the BIG10 along with Virginia, Duke, Miami, Stanford and Cal….. in a few years.

They want their independence. They will never ever join the Big 10.