(09-25-2023 10:26 AM)Eggszecutor Wrote:  

(09-25-2023 10:20 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/spt...96899.html

Quote:As the Pac-12 burned to the ground, the Big 12 had the chance to invite two of its remaining members, Stanford and California.

According to Big 12 school officials, the conference contemplated adding the two elite Bay-area schools but were met with resistance from four members, namely Iowa State, Oklahoma State, Kansas State and Texas Tech.

Having already added Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado and Utah to the league starting in 2024, one Big 12 official said, “There is no more money.”

This from a column talking about how SMU to the ACC might affect TCU but we get some clarity on what was going on behind the scenes as PAC programs were scrambling after the Oregon and Washington news hit them like a ton of bricks. It could well explain why Oregon State and Washington State weren't invited, either.

It absolutely explains OSU/WSU. It also makes one wonder if the money is sustainable for the new Big XII when their next TV deal comes up? Everyone was praising Yormark for being a genius. However, It's overlooked that part of the reason ESPN extended their agreement with the Big XII was to help get OU/UT out of the Big XII sooner. That leverage is now gone. What happens in 5 years when it's time to renegotiate the Big XII TV deal? Are they still worth $31 million per school? It's not over yet.

It won't be. Big XIIIIIII is doomed to implode

I think it was pretty dumb for the big 12 to turn down cal and Stanford and allow smu to join the acc. The best move now would be for the big 12 and ACC to merge and invite San Diego state and Oregon state to get to 36. Eventually, the big 10 and SEC will expand so securing a conference right below those 2 for the 36 big 12 members should be the goal. Post big 10/SEC expansion the big 12/ACC merged conference can downsize and or reload to be the clear #3 conference. I would fold the big 12 into the ACC with its network and rebrand All Coast Conference or maybe get a sponsorship with Allstate Coast Conference

Those four Big XII schools would be OSU's and WSU's biggest proponents. However, at least for now, they couldn't make the numbers work. I hope there's hope once the PAC10gone are deemed legally gone by that judge next month.

(09-25-2023 11:59 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(09-25-2023 10:26 AM)Eggszecutor Wrote:  

(09-25-2023 10:20 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/spt...96899.html

Quote:As the Pac-12 burned to the ground, the Big 12 had the chance to invite two of its remaining members, Stanford and California.

According to Big 12 school officials, the conference contemplated adding the two elite Bay-area schools but were met with resistance from four members, namely Iowa State, Oklahoma State, Kansas State and Texas Tech.

Having already added Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado and Utah to the league starting in 2024, one Big 12 official said, “There is no more money.”

This from a column talking about how SMU to the ACC might affect TCU but we get some clarity on what was going on behind the scenes as PAC programs were scrambling after the Oregon and Washington news hit them like a ton of bricks. It could well explain why Oregon State and Washington State weren't invited, either.

It absolutely explains OSU/WSU. It also makes one wonder if the money is sustainable for the new Big XII when their next TV deal comes up? Everyone was praising Yormark for being a genius. However, It's overlooked that part of the reason ESPN extended their agreement with the Big XII was to help get OU/UT out of the Big XII sooner. That leverage is now gone. What happens in 5 years when it's time to renegotiate the Big XII TV deal? Are they still worth $31 million per school? It's not over yet.

It won't be. Big XIIIIIII is doomed to implode

Ha! Don't you understand how many times people have been wrong about that?

(09-25-2023 11:55 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-25-2023 11:37 AM)Sicembear11 Wrote:  

(09-25-2023 10:26 AM)Eggszecutor Wrote:  

(09-25-2023 10:20 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/spt...96899.html

Quote:As the Pac-12 burned to the ground, the Big 12 had the chance to invite two of its remaining members, Stanford and California.

According to Big 12 school officials, the conference contemplated adding the two elite Bay-area schools but were met with resistance from four members, namely Iowa State, Oklahoma State, Kansas State and Texas Tech.

Having already added Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado and Utah to the league starting in 2024, one Big 12 official said, “There is no more money.”

This from a column talking about how SMU to the ACC might affect TCU but we get some clarity on what was going on behind the scenes as PAC programs were scrambling after the Oregon and Washington news hit them like a ton of bricks. It could well explain why Oregon State and Washington State weren't invited, either.

It absolutely explains OSU/WSU. It also makes one wonder if the money is sustainable for the new Big XII when their next TV deal comes up? Everyone was praising Yormark for being a genius. However, It's overlooked that part of the reason ESPN extended their agreement with the Big XII was to help get OU/UT out of the Big XII sooner. That leverage is now gone. What happens in 5 years when it's time to renegotiate the Big XII TV deal? Are they still worth $31 million per school? It's not over yet.

Is it ever over? You have schools from the ACC and the Big 12 who will be courting B1G and SEC invites hard.

Cal/Stanford/Utah/Colorado/Kansas/Virginia/Virginia Tech/UNC/NC State/Duke/Clemson/FSU/Miami.

You could even thrown in the Arizonas/Pitt/WVU/TCU.

Some of those schools WILL get picked up, and the rest will have to make do where they are.

The best you are going to get in this environment is the current deal and then reassess at the next media deal. The Big 12 should be okay in that it has already outlasted the PAC. The Big 12 will be able to offer games in every single time slot for potential partners. It has the reach to East or West and centrally anchored.

Regardless of any turmoil, the conference will survive in some form or other.

I suspect if the ACC GOR lasts until the late 2030s, there will be enough of the ACC left to survive and they will trade with Stanford/Cal realizing the cost of their arrogance and WVU and UCF getting reduced travel costs in the ACC, with renewed rivalries for WVU. Not sure if the Big 12 would be willing to trade Cincinnati for SMU, though.

I don't think the ACC will trade Stanford and Cal for West Virginia and UCF.
That trade could be made with the B1G in exchange for Rutgers and Maryland. That solves problems for both conferences; it gets the ACC out of the West Coast and it gets the B1G out of the East Coast. This consolidates travel and advertising for both conferences.

So the Big 12 couldn't invite them because it couldn't afford them.

OK.

Having already added Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado and Utah to the league starting in 2024, one Big 12 official said, “There is no more money.”

Hmm...
If the ACC and Big 12 merged into one 34-team confererence

West division-7
Cal, Stan, Ariz, Ariz St, Utah, BYU, Col

Central-9
Iowa St, Kan, Kan St, OK St, TT, TCU, SMU, Bay, Hou

South-9
UCF, Miami, Flor St, GT, Clem, UNC, NCSU, WF, Duke

North-9
Lou, VA, VT, Pitt, WV, Cincy, Cuse, BC, ND

(09-25-2023 10:40 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  Thing is both Cal and Stanford would pay their own way - accept less payout

I actually think the B12 should have just added OSU/WSU/Cal/Stanford and gone to 20

4 5-team pods -
OSU, WSU, Cal, Stan, Utah
AZ, ASU, BYU, TTU, TCU
CO, KU, KSU, ISU, Ok St (old Big 8)
Hous, Bay, UCF, Cinc, WV

Those all contain some nice existing rivalries/ratings drivers

Football - play 4 from your pod every year, then 2 from the other 3 pods (10 games but works best that way)

Basketball - home and home within pod (8 games), everyone else once (12) - making a 20 game conf season -doable

The old Big 8 schools get to maintain their 100 year old rivalries, BYU-TCU get to play every year, the Pac NW group has decent travel

The B12 gets two more AAU schools in Cal and Stan, gives AZ some west coast recruiting access

Also, when ACC implodes, B12 can add Louisville, Pitt and find two more to get to 24 - guessing this configuration of the B12 is a near match to SEC and B1G football and basketball

Did you just really split up BYU and Utah in your pods?

(09-25-2023 01:03 PM)C2__ Wrote:  

(09-25-2023 10:40 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  Thing is both Cal and Stanford would pay their own way - accept less payout

I actually think the B12 should have just added OSU/WSU/Cal/Stanford and gone to 20

4 5-team pods -
OSU, WSU, Cal, Stan, Utah
AZ, ASU, BYU, TTU, TCU
CO, KU, KSU, ISU, Ok St (old Big 8)
Hous, Bay, UCF, Cinc, WV

Those all contain some nice existing rivalries/ratings drivers

Football - play 4 from your pod every year, then 2 from the other 3 pods (10 games but works best that way)

Basketball - home and home within pod (8 games), everyone else once (12) - making a 20 game conf season -doable

The old Big 8 schools get to maintain their 100 year old rivalries, BYU-TCU get to play every year, the Pac NW group has decent travel

The B12 gets two more AAU schools in Cal and Stan, gives AZ some west coast recruiting access

Also, when ACC implodes, B12 can add Louisville, Pitt and find two more to get to 24 - guessing this configuration of the B12 is a near match to SEC and B1G football and basketball

Did you just really split up BYU and Utah in your pods?

That’s a huge part of a TV package lol

(09-25-2023 11:03 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  

(09-25-2023 10:56 AM)solohawks Wrote:  I dont see Cal and Stanford being good partners in the Big 12. It wouldn't have been a pleasant experience for any of the involved parties

The ACC is going to have their hands full with those two.

The ACC has their hands full with current members...I could actually see Stanford & Cal fitting in nicely down the road with the Ivory Tower Trio of UNC, UVA and Duke that runs the ACC. If all of those schools stay when the dam breaks, that is.

The ACC has set itself up to be the private school/Ivory tower conference after the inevitable happens

Wake, Duke, GA Tech, Syracuse, BC, SMU, Cal, Stanford at minimum

Rice, Tulane, USF would fit in well as needed

If B12 money dries up while the ACC remains viable, those 4 are the most likely to be left behind as the ACC backfills.

(09-25-2023 11:57 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(09-25-2023 10:40 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  Thing is both Cal and Stanford would pay their own way - accept less payout

I actually think the B12 should have just added OSU/WSU/Cal/Stanford and gone to 20

4 5-team pods -
OSU, WSU, Cal, Stan, Utah
AZ, ASU, BYU, TTU, TCU
CO, KU, KSU, ISU, Ok St (old Big 8)
Hous, Bay, UCF, Cinc, WV

Those all contain some nice existing rivalries/ratings drivers

Football - play 4 from your pod every year, then 2 from the other 3 pods (10 games but works best that way)

Basketball - home and home within pod (8 games), everyone else once (12) - making a 20 game conf season -doable

The old Big 8 schools get to maintain their 100 year old rivalries, BYU-TCU get to play every year, the Pac NW group has decent travel

The B12 gets two more AAU schools in Cal and Stan, gives AZ some west coast recruiting access

Also, when ACC implodes, B12 can add Louisville, Pitt and find two more to get to 24 - guessing this configuration of the B12 is a near match to SEC and B1G football and basketball

Doesnt say when that occurred. It may be that Cal and Stanford were not wiling to take half shares at that time. However, if they were---then the rejection indicates the B12 could not make money off of that expansion even at half price.

People forget how much Yormark talked about cultural fit. Cal and Stanford are as far from a cultural fit as possible from Big 12 schools.

That being said I think the Utah and AZ schools are going to struggle not being in CA.

(09-25-2023 01:27 PM)solohawks Wrote:  The ACC has set itself up to be the private school/Ivory tower conference after the inevitable happens

Wake, Duke, GA Tech, Syracuse, BC, SMU, Cal, Stanford at minimum

Rice, Tulane, USF would fit in well as needed

AZ State and Utah would both want to join that conference.

(09-25-2023 01:27 PM)solohawks Wrote:  The ACC has set itself up to be the private school/Ivory tower conference after the inevitable happens

Wake, Duke, GA Tech, Syracuse, BC, SMU, Cal, Stanford at minimum

Rice, Tulane, USF would fit in well as needed

That’s the impression I have as well.

When the ACC does finally see its most attractive members depart, there will be some schools with difficult choices to make—stay in the academic minded ACC or the more athletically focused Big 12.

Louisville strikes me as a school that better fits the Big 12 mentality.

Miami/Pitt/VT/NC St could be swayed to go either way. SMU is a bit of a snob but they might find their old SWC foes attractive conference mates.

If they are still there, BC, Cuse, UVA, Duke, WF, GT, Cal, and Stanford are your academic upper crust cohort.

(09-25-2023 11:37 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(09-25-2023 10:40 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  Thing is both Cal and Stanford would pay their own way - accept less payout ...

The thing is, Stanford probably prefers to be in the ACC if they have to enter either the ACC or the Big12 at a reduced payout.

And you may well retort that it would be the height of arrogance for Stanford to just assume they can talk their way into the ACC but, (1) this is Stanford we are talking about, and over the past few decades, there would have to be more people who've lost bets on the under side regarding how high their arrogance goes, and (2) they might have held onto the offer to join the Big12 at a reduced payout as their Plan C, but they didn't have to turn to Plan C because their Plan B worked out.

Knowing Yormark, he talked about a "let's sort this our right now", rather than "let's extend them an offer and let them mull it over for months". Yormark doesn't need to be a plan C for 2 of the primary reasons that the Pac is now dead, and he knows it. And we definitely know that he wanted all 4 of the 4c more than he wanted Cal, Stanford or SMU.

(09-25-2023 11:37 AM)Sicembear11 Wrote:  

(09-25-2023 10:26 AM)Eggszecutor Wrote:  

(09-25-2023 10:20 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/spt...96899.html

Quote:As the Pac-12 burned to the ground, the Big 12 had the chance to invite two of its remaining members, Stanford and California.

According to Big 12 school officials, the conference contemplated adding the two elite Bay-area schools but were met with resistance from four members, namely Iowa State, Oklahoma State, Kansas State and Texas Tech.

Having already added Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado and Utah to the league starting in 2024, one Big 12 official said, “There is no more money.”

This from a column talking about how SMU to the ACC might affect TCU but we get some clarity on what was going on behind the scenes as PAC programs were scrambling after the Oregon and Washington news hit them like a ton of bricks. It could well explain why Oregon State and Washington State weren't invited, either.

It absolutely explains OSU/WSU. It also makes one wonder if the money is sustainable for the new Big XII when their next TV deal comes up? Everyone was praising Yormark for being a genius. However, It's overlooked that part of the reason ESPN extended their agreement with the Big XII was to help get OU/UT out of the Big XII sooner. That leverage is now gone. What happens in 5 years when it's time to renegotiate the Big XII TV deal? Are they still worth $31 million per school? It's not over yet.

Is it ever over? You have schools from the ACC and the Big 12 who will be courting B1G and SEC invites hard.

Cal/Stanford/Utah/Colorado/Kansas/Virginia/Virginia Tech/UNC/NC State/Duke/Clemson/FSU/Miami.

You could even thrown in the Arizonas/Pitt/WVU/TCU.

Some of those schools WILL get picked up, and the rest will have to make do where they are.

The best you are going to get in this environment is the current deal and then reassess at the next media deal. The Big 12 should be okay in that it has already outlasted the PAC. The Big 12 will be able to offer games in every single time slot for potential partners. It has the reach to East or West and centrally anchored.

Regardless of any turmoil, the conference will survive in some form or other.

Yeah, you guys deserve a ton of credit. I know that Yormark gets most of it, and he's certainly done a lot, but your Presidents could have been just as foolish as the Pac Presidents were last fall and easily killed off the Conference. Instead, you guys are sitting pretty as a strong M2 Conference with a reasonable expectation of remaining in the top tier indefinitely, and everyone will have that equal playing field that the SEC has proven to be an excellent model for running a Conference. Well, the new g5s will take a couple short years to get up to even, but by 25-26 they'll be even with everybody else, and your issue with ramping them up had more to do with uncertainty regarding incoming revenues than it did out of any desire to keep them from being able to compete with the rest of the Conference.

(09-25-2023 11:43 AM)IWantToTalkToRalphSampson Wrote:  

(09-25-2023 11:19 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-25-2023 10:56 AM)solohawks Wrote:  I dont see Cal and Stanford being good partners in the Big 12. It wouldn't have been a pleasant experience for any of the involved parties

It's a very complicated situation. If the money had been there to add them at the same payout as the 4c then they'd probably have gotten in, but as it was, there were enough hard feelings over their decades of snobbery and extreme foolishness that the money issue was a good excuse to vote against them. If they'd actually had to remain in the 4Pack and help rebuild it, they might have gotten an invite in 2031 or 2036.

I wonder if, beyond the ESPN/Fox TV money, if adding two more schools outside the current footprint wasn't palatable, given that would have put the league with 7 Pacific/Mountain time zone schools, exacerbated travel problems, and further made WVU, UCF, and Cincy outliers? Particularly given that Calford would bolt the Big XII for a B1G invite in a heartbeat when the B12's short GOR is up, whereas the ACC has them locked in for another 13 years with the GOR.

In this particular case I think that the simplest explanation is also the most likely one: Calford were lukewarm on the Big 12, the Big was lukewarm on Calford, and the networks were also lukewarm (at best) on Calford. I think that this is one of those cases where any of those 3 parties could have killed off a potential move, and instead of one of them killing it, all 3 of them vetoed it at more or less the same time.

(09-25-2023 11:59 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(09-25-2023 10:26 AM)Eggszecutor Wrote:  

(09-25-2023 10:20 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/spt...96899.html

Quote:As the Pac-12 burned to the ground, the Big 12 had the chance to invite two of its remaining members, Stanford and California.

According to Big 12 school officials, the conference contemplated adding the two elite Bay-area schools but were met with resistance from four members, namely Iowa State, Oklahoma State, Kansas State and Texas Tech.

Having already added Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado and Utah to the league starting in 2024, one Big 12 official said, “There is no more money.”

This from a column talking about how SMU to the ACC might affect TCU but we get some clarity on what was going on behind the scenes as PAC programs were scrambling after the Oregon and Washington news hit them like a ton of bricks. It could well explain why Oregon State and Washington State weren't invited, either.

It absolutely explains OSU/WSU. It also makes one wonder if the money is sustainable for the new Big XII when their next TV deal comes up? Everyone was praising Yormark for being a genius. However, It's overlooked that part of the reason ESPN extended their agreement with the Big XII was to help get OU/UT out of the Big XII sooner. That leverage is now gone. What happens in 5 years when it's time to renegotiate the Big XII TV deal? Are they still worth $31 million per school? It's not over yet.

It won't be. Big XIIIIIII is doomed to implode

I'm actually not sure if you're talking about the Big 16 or the Big 18. I know that if I was an Illini fan, I'd be watching my back these days though. You guys have more in common with ASU or CU than you do with Michigan or tOSU.

Those four are original Big12 schools. The PAC12 snubbed “inquiries” prior from B12 members, including those four. Cal and Stanford showed no fondness in adding from the B12. Even Texas once got rejected by Stanford.