According to US News, W&M is now ranked 53rd in the nation among top universities, tied with the highly rigorous academic institution of Florida State University, and we are now a whopping 6 spots behind 47th ranked Virginia Polytechnic Institute. As a senior graduating this semester, I don't particularly care to see my degree perpetually degraded year after year because the administration either refuses to play the ranking games or are being simply outplayed by other schools. AND in terms of our athletics programs, I can only assume that this trend will hurt our recruit appeal. Although we may not be the best route to the big leagues, what we have traditionally offered was a top tier education that would lead to off the field success. Guess I'll end on the bright side for the FBS hopefuls, a decade from now we will be a perfect academic fit for the Sun Belt.



https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ran...iversities

(09-17-2023 10:16 PM)Grandson of Iron Indian Wrote:  According to US News, W&M is now ranked 53rd in the nation among top universities, tied with the highly rigorous academic institution of Florida State University, and we are now a whopping 6 spots behind 47th ranked Virginia Polytechnic Institute. As a senior graduating this semester, I don't particularly care to see my degree perpetually degraded year after year because the administration either refuses to play the ranking games or are being simply outplayed by other schools. AND in terms of our athletics programs, I can only assume that this trend will hurt our recruit appeal. Although we may not be the best route to the big leagues, what we have traditionally offered was a top tier education that would lead to off the field success. Guess I'll end on the bright side for the FBS hopefuls, a decade from now we will be a perfect academic fit for the Sun Belt.



https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ran...iversities

Playing the ranking games would mean destroying everything that makes W&M what it is. Class size for example is no longer really factored into the rankings, which probably killed us. Financial aid is a MASSIVE part of the rankings now. So say goodbye to competitive academics if you want to see W&M offer fin aid to out of staters and dramatically increase the Pell Grant population, because that's where the first cut is going to have to be made, realistically. We also focus on undegraduate education, which kills us since USNews favors research powerhouses.

Rankings are meaningless now because they focus on almost everything but academic quality and a 9 slot drop does not mean we are any less of a good school or that our academics are declining?? The part about us being "a perfect academic fit for the Sun Belt" in a decade is unnecessary hysterics.

What does the CAA end up being? If you guys can't spot a trend...maybe you aren't as smart as you think you are.

This taps into a study that came out when I was a student (class of 2020). Basically, W&M students tend to come from wealthier backgrounds: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/proj...lliam-mary

This is also something I think admin is trying to address, or at least was when I was a student.

The USNWR methodology underwent a pretty hefty change recently, essentially it is aiming more towards ranking economic mobility/opportunity. Not an expert at all, but I think it more or less reflects some of the debates of the past few years with regards to accessibility/necessity of higher education. This article sums it up pretty well, you'll note that some near peer institutions were also affected: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/18/us/us...nking.html

Put those two articles together and you'll begin to see where we might struggle in a ranking with those parameters. More specifically to things that W&M does exceedingly well at: graduation rates and teaching environment. Buried in that second link is that USNWR's new algorithm de-weights, of all things, graduation rates... and elsewhere that it de-weights class size. It's a marketing thing and probably an admissions thing. Not an academic thing. Anecdotally as a recent grad, my time at W&M is something I look at almost directly as a reason that I was able to get into a pretty fun/fulfilling career involving something I've wanted to do since I was a kid. As a history major, I had a lot of small classes, and what I learned there I use daily in my professional life. My professors were actively involved in discussing with me what I wanted to do, where, and how. I'm not sure I'd be where I am, doing something I really enjoy involving what I studied at W&M, if I had attended another institution. USNWR isn't really ranking for that anymore, if they ever were.

Not to sound corny, but professionally, those that need to know will know the value of your degree. You won't be able to quantify it, but you'll notice when it gets brought up at a conference or something. More directly, you'll be able to tell when you see how well your peers/friends from W&M are doing with their own careers or paths in life over the next few years.

I'd counter that the overall brand needs a kick in the butt with regards to just public awareness. I'd love a Flutie Effect or something similar. I'll never forget being in the midwest and having to deal with someone convinced that William & Mary didn't exist and that I actually attended St. Mary's in California, known for its basketball program. That was... kind of mind-blowing, but unfortunately a conversation with a not-uncommon gist once you get off the east coast.

Also... Fun Belt Slander! Most fun G5 conference every Saturday, and the home of some former CAA members.

I read The NY Times article. The comments stated above are all accurate summaries but missed that gifting to the College was removed as a criteria that we are ranked as #1.

Also a criteria that was increased is Pell grants that Rowe announced this year was a new emphasis.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I guess you can take this as the College's official response to the recent US News ranking.

https://news.wm.edu/2023/09/18/the-quint...ublic-ivy/

I think these rankings matter less and less as everyone basically realizes that they consist of a bunch of arbitrary metrics that university administrators are paid to manipulate.

Why is our tuition so expensive? If there is one thing we should focus on changing that would be it in my mind.

Moving focus away from graduation rate and admissions rate is dumb. Pell grants have no bearing on the quality of a school and are a silly metric that will always favor large public universities. That said, there are ways to play the game and WM should focus on those. In the law world everybody remembers when W&L got hosed by the rankings and managed to climb back up by adding books to their library, lol.

It's ironic that tech is ahead of us. Most graduates I've met are top notch but dread the direction the school is heading. Dorm common spaces stuffed with 4 bunk beds so they can add more students.

I don't know what a "values-based" education means at a public university, and it feels like meaningless jargon to be honest. I would focus on what we do well, and build our way back to the top--keep emphasizing the success of our business school graduates, go for the highest graduation rate in the state, highlight student employment rate at graduation and raise it. I also have always worried about the switch from gen eds to COLL100 or whatever if they still do that. Gen eds stunk and were my lowest grades, but I learned a thing or two in astronomy, stats, and psych and they forced me to study things I didn't want to...an essential skill for when you head to the work world!

*and no I'm not a business school graduate, but I wish I had added a second major or minor based on the success of those I know who did!

(09-18-2023 08:20 AM)W+M4TW Wrote:  Why is our tuition so expensive? If there is one thing we should focus on changing that would be it in my mind.

Moving focus away from graduation rate and admissions rate is dumb. Pell grants have no bearing on the quality of a school and are a silly metric that will always favor large public universities. That said, there are ways to play the game and WM should focus on those. In the law world everybody remembers when W&L got hosed by the rankings and managed to climb back up by adding books to their library, lol.

It's ironic that tech is ahead of us. Most graduates I've met are top notch but dread the direction the school is heading. Dorm common spaces stuffed with 4 bunk beds so they can add more students.

I don't know what a "values-based" education means at a public university, and it feels like meaningless jargon to be honest. I would focus on what we do well, and build our way back to the top--keep emphasizing the success of our business school graduates, go for the highest graduation rate in the state, highlight student employment rate at graduation and raise it. I also have always worried about the switch from gen eds to COLL100 or whatever if they still do that. Gen eds stunk and were my lowest grades, but I learned a thing or two in astronomy, stats, and psych and they forced me to study things I didn't want to...an essential skill for when you head to the work world!

*and no I'm not a business school graduate, but I wish I had added a second major or minor based on the success of those I know who did!

FWIW, you basically said "I don't know what a "values-based" education means" and then described what it means in your recommendations. The press release linked by tribeintexas has a whole section at the bottom that defines it in greater detail.

Our tuition is expensive because Virginia's state legislature has spent the last 20 years cutting our funding while demanding that W&M increase in-state percentages. It costs money to have great faculty and facilities, so W&M did the only things it could do, raise tuition and increase enrollment.

Wait, what? Four factors that W&M excels in (graduation rates, alumni giving, class size, and student debt ratio) were devalued or eliminated in the rankings, causing our ranking to plummet? Is this part of the vast anti-Tribe conspiracy?

At one point in time, W&M was the Second-Best College behind only Harvard. Is it too much to ask that we return to our former glory?

(09-18-2023 09:02 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(09-18-2023 08:20 AM)W+M4TW Wrote:  Why is our tuition so expensive? If there is one thing we should focus on changing that would be it in my mind.

Moving focus away from graduation rate and admissions rate is dumb. Pell grants have no bearing on the quality of a school and are a silly metric that will always favor large public universities. That said, there are ways to play the game and WM should focus on those. In the law world everybody remembers when W&L got hosed by the rankings and managed to climb back up by adding books to their library, lol.

It's ironic that tech is ahead of us. Most graduates I've met are top notch but dread the direction the school is heading. Dorm common spaces stuffed with 4 bunk beds so they can add more students.

I don't know what a "values-based" education means at a public university, and it feels like meaningless jargon to be honest. I would focus on what we do well, and build our way back to the top--keep emphasizing the success of our business school graduates, go for the highest graduation rate in the state, highlight student employment rate at graduation and raise it. I also have always worried about the switch from gen eds to COLL100 or whatever if they still do that. Gen eds stunk and were my lowest grades, but I learned a thing or two in astronomy, stats, and psych and they forced me to study things I didn't want to...an essential skill for when you head to the work world!

*and no I'm not a business school graduate, but I wish I had added a second major or minor based on the success of those I know who did!

FWIW, you basically said "I don't know what a "values-based" education means" and then described what it means in your recommendations. The press release linked by tribeintexas has a whole section at the bottom that defines it in greater detail.

Our tuition is expensive because Virginia's state legislature has spent the last 20 years cutting our funding while demanding that W&M increase in-state percentages. It costs money to have great faculty and facilities, so W&M did the only things it could do, raise tuition and increase enrollment.

From the article:
"'William & Mary remains focused on what matters to us: providing students with a distinctive, personal educational experience aligned with our values,' said Vice President for Strategy & Innovation Jeremy P. Martin"

"The charge, in part, reads, William & Mary’s mission statement defines the institution as ‘a preeminent, public research university, grounded in the liberal arts and sciences since 1693.’ The university recognizes that rankings are important because they matter to people who matter to us – prospective students, alumni and others. Yet William & Mary’s mission statement also defines critical aspects of the university that may or may not align with a respective ranking. A values-based approach will aid the William & Mary community when engaging rankings, individually or collectively.”

"It’s time to focus on what is so distinctive about William & Mary as the most personal of all public universities. A great university defines that on its own terms.”

The values are not defined, and the middle paragraph is taken from under the heading "A values-based approach."

It's circumlocution, a whole article discussing our values-based approach with no defining what that means.

(09-18-2023 09:18 AM)W+M4TW Wrote:  

(09-18-2023 09:02 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(09-18-2023 08:20 AM)W+M4TW Wrote:  Why is our tuition so expensive? If there is one thing we should focus on changing that would be it in my mind.

Moving focus away from graduation rate and admissions rate is dumb. Pell grants have no bearing on the quality of a school and are a silly metric that will always favor large public universities. That said, there are ways to play the game and WM should focus on those. In the law world everybody remembers when W&L got hosed by the rankings and managed to climb back up by adding books to their library, lol.

It's ironic that tech is ahead of us. Most graduates I've met are top notch but dread the direction the school is heading. Dorm common spaces stuffed with 4 bunk beds so they can add more students.

I don't know what a "values-based" education means at a public university, and it feels like meaningless jargon to be honest. I would focus on what we do well, and build our way back to the top--keep emphasizing the success of our business school graduates, go for the highest graduation rate in the state, highlight student employment rate at graduation and raise it. I also have always worried about the switch from gen eds to COLL100 or whatever if they still do that. Gen eds stunk and were my lowest grades, but I learned a thing or two in astronomy, stats, and psych and they forced me to study things I didn't want to...an essential skill for when you head to the work world!

*and no I'm not a business school graduate, but I wish I had added a second major or minor based on the success of those I know who did!

FWIW, you basically said "I don't know what a "values-based" education means" and then described what it means in your recommendations. The press release linked by tribeintexas has a whole section at the bottom that defines it in greater detail.

Our tuition is expensive because Virginia's state legislature has spent the last 20 years cutting our funding while demanding that W&M increase in-state percentages. It costs money to have great faculty and facilities, so W&M did the only things it could do, raise tuition and increase enrollment.

From the article:
"'William & Mary remains focused on what matters to us: providing students with a distinctive, personal educational experience aligned with our values,' said Vice President for Strategy & Innovation Jeremy P. Martin"

"The charge, in part, reads, William & Mary’s mission statement defines the institution as ‘a preeminent, public research university, grounded in the liberal arts and sciences since 1693.’ The university recognizes that rankings are important because they matter to people who matter to us – prospective students, alumni and others. Yet William & Mary’s mission statement also defines critical aspects of the university that may or may not align with a respective ranking. A values-based approach will aid the William & Mary community when engaging rankings, individually or collectively.”

"It’s time to focus on what is so distinctive about William & Mary as the most personal of all public universities. A great university defines that on its own terms.”

The values are not defined, and the middle paragraph is taken from under the heading "A values-based approach."

It's circumlocution, a whole article discussing our values-based approach with no defining what that means.

These are the sentences that you left out from the passage that you quoted. (Emphasis mine)

"Stottlemyer said. “Our prospective students care about great academics, faculty mentoring with small classes, and pathways to successful careers. These are core values for William & Mary."

Those are the values that we're focused on in a values-based approach.

(09-18-2023 09:18 AM)Grandson of Iron Indian Wrote:  At one point in time, W&M was the Second-Best College behind only Harvard. Is it too much to ask that we return to our former glory?

"Return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear..." -- 1694, to be precise.

(09-18-2023 09:41 AM)Blow Gym rat Wrote:  

(09-18-2023 09:18 AM)Grandson of Iron Indian Wrote:  At one point in time, W&M was the Second-Best College behind only Harvard. Is it too much to ask that we return to our former glory?

"Return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear..." -- 1694, to be precise.

The issue with playing the rankings game is if we fine tune things with the specific goal of improving our ranking in US news, they could just change the criteria again next year in a way that hurts WM.

(09-18-2023 09:57 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  The issue with playing the rankings game is if we fine tune things with the specific goal of improving our ranking in US news, they could just change the criteria again next year in a way that hurts WM.

This exactly! President of Wake Forest said that they will continue to not make decisions only because they play into rankings and she's totally right that it's a bad decision for an institution

W&M's decline is inevitable, given the prevailing Woke culture. We have always billed ourselves as "Alma Mater of a Nation." We used to celebrate Colonial Wmbg right down the street. Now, the 1619 Project, the reparations movement, etc. views the Founding Fathers who walked our hallowed halls as slave holding bastards and the entire colonial era as disgraceful. Renaming College buildings, building monuments to the slaves who build our campus, etc. may not be enough.

As I said on our board, W&M behind VT and tied with FSU is an absolute joke. Florida at #28? Ohio State in the top 50?

I'm sure that there are more examples, but USNEWS rankings continue to mean less and less.

(09-18-2023 10:24 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  W&M's decline is inevitable, given the prevailing Woke culture. We have always billed ourselves as "Alma Mater of a Nation." We used to celebrate Colonial Wmbg right down the street. Now, the 1619 Project, the reparations movement, etc. views the Founding Fathers who walked our hallowed halls as slave holding bastards and the entire colonial era as disgraceful. Renaming College buildings, building monuments to the slaves who build our campus, etc. may not be enough.

Ha..."woke" is the reason for everything these days, right? I continue to be amazed by the echo chambers on both sides these days. No actual discussion, just ideologic straw man fallacies.