Does anyone else wish there was some sort of standardized method for counting attendance at games, at the conference level if not FBS-wide.

I get annoyed seeing P5 AND G5 programs reporting 45,000 fans at their games, when the pictures of the stadium mid-first quarter tell a wildly different story.

App had 40,168 in attendance today vs. ECU, which was standing room only and, I'm pretty sure, the maximum the fire department will allow. It matched the number of fans attending the UNC game last year (the 63-61 shootout) to tie for largest home crowd ever. Anyone who watched those games could see that that is how many people were there; not an empty seat in the house.

Shouldn't tickets scanned be the standard?

(09-16-2023 07:01 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  Does anyone else wish there was some sort of standardized method for counting attendance at games, at the conference level if not FBS-wide.

I get annoyed seeing P5 AND G5 programs reporting 45,000 fans at their games, when the pictures of the stadium mid-first quarter tell a wildly different story.

App had 40,168 in attendance today vs. ECU, which was standing room only and, I'm pretty sure, the maximum the fire department will allow. It matched the number of fans attending the UNC game last year (the 63-61 shootout) to tie for largest home crowd ever. Anyone who watched those games could see that that is how many people were there; not an empty seat in the house.

Shouldn't tickets scanned be the standard?

Everyone's excited about a full house. For an AD, ticket sales are the measure that matters most. Having all of the ticket buyers come to the game is a nice plus.

I'm not sure that data gathering methods are as useless as you suggest. In athletic departments and in research publications (see Research Gate), people are running analyses on something.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication...cket_Sales

80% of P2/M2 mobile ticket sales are handled through one company based in Irvine. They'd use a consistent method for tracking purchases.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...ince-1982/

lol, could be worse, Memphis doesn't know how to count, it's not unusual for our actual attendance to be higher than the official count.

FCS playoffs probably have the most accurate count in all of NCAA. The host school owes the NCAA 75% of the gate so there's huge incentive to not overcount, but you also want to show fan interest so you don't undercount.

(09-16-2023 07:01 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  Does anyone else wish there was some sort of standardized method for counting attendance at games, at the conference level if not FBS-wide.

I get annoyed seeing P5 AND G5 programs reporting 45,000 fans at their games, when the pictures of the stadium mid-first quarter tell a wildly different story.

App had 40,168 in attendance today vs. ECU, which was standing room only and, I'm pretty sure, the maximum the fire department will allow. It matched the number of fans attending the UNC game last year (the 63-61 shootout) to tie for largest home crowd ever. Anyone who watched those games could see that that is how many people were there; not an empty seat in the house.

Shouldn't tickets scanned be the standard?

Matt Brown with Extra Points has done some interesting work on this very topic. I'd recommend that you reach out to him.

(09-16-2023 07:24 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 07:01 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  Does anyone else wish there was some sort of standardized method for counting attendance at games, at the conference level if not FBS-wide.

I get annoyed seeing P5 AND G5 programs reporting 45,000 fans at their games, when the pictures of the stadium mid-first quarter tell a wildly different story.

App had 40,168 in attendance today vs. ECU, which was standing room only and, I'm pretty sure, the maximum the fire department will allow. It matched the number of fans attending the UNC game last year (the 63-61 shootout) to tie for largest home crowd ever. Anyone who watched those games could see that that is how many people were there; not an empty seat in the house.

Shouldn't tickets scanned be the standard?

Everyone's excited about a full house. For an AD, ticket sales are the measure that matters most. Having all of the ticket buyers come to the game is a nice plus.

I'm not sure that data gathering methods are as useless as you suggest. In athletic departments and in research publications (see Research Gate), people are running analyses on something.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication...cket_Sales

80% of P2/M2 mobile ticket sales are handled through one company based in Irvine. They'd use a consistent method for tracking purchases.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...ince-1982/

AEW is getting destroyed right now because they sold over 81,000 tickets to All In at Wembley Stadium in the UK, but the turnstile only counted 71,000 coming in. Ticket sales should not count when you see how Miami Florida cooked their books at times. When you see Miami with less than a half full stadium with fans in attendance? It shows that Miami is cheating on their attendance.

(09-16-2023 07:53 PM)clunk Wrote:  FCS playoffs probably have the most accurate count in all of NCAA. The host school owes the NCAA 75% of the gate so there's huge incentive to not overcount, but you also want to show fan interest so you don't undercount.

75% of the money goes to the NCAA???

That's highway robbery.

(09-16-2023 10:07 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 07:53 PM)clunk Wrote:  FCS playoffs probably have the most accurate count in all of NCAA. The host school owes the NCAA 75% of the gate so there's huge incentive to not overcount, but you also want to show fan interest so you don't undercount.

75% of the money goes to the NCAA???

That's highway robbery.

App used to under announce for the FCS playoffs. I've been in a crowd of 17000 get called 13000

(09-16-2023 07:24 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  [quote='Michael in Raleigh' pid='19150605' dateline='1694908866']
Does anyone else wish there was some sort of standardized method for counting attendance at games, at the conference level if not FBS-wide.

I get annoyed seeing P5 AND G5 programs reporting 45,000 fans at their games, when the pictures of the stadium mid-first quarter tell a wildly different story.

App had 40,168 in attendance today vs. ECU, which was standing room only and, I'm pretty sure, the maximum the fire department will allow. It matched the number of fans attending the UNC game last year (the 63-61 shootout) to tie for largest home crowd ever. Anyone who watched those games could see that that is how many people were there; not an empty seat in the house.

Shouldn't tickets scanned be the standard?

It would be nice, but getting standardized almost ANYTHING when it comes to data collection is almost impossible in college sports. The budget numbers this board (and Twitter) likes to argue about a lot...from the FRS reports...are NOT standardized. Attendance isn't either. It probably *should* be, but
a) not every event actually uses ticket scanning
b) the ticket scanners break on a non-irregular basis, and user error, I'm told, can be high
c) nobody in NCAA governance REALLY cares to push about this all that much

The official NCAA attendance numbers are not accurate representations of how many people actually showed up. The most accurate count anybody is going to get for how many people walked into the door is ticket scans, and the only way to get that is via Open Records Request, which I've done hundreds of times in my career.

A good rule of thumb is what the actual attendance is at least 10% less than whatever the school says it was. In some cases, the error could be north of 20%.

Quote:

Everyone's excited about a full house. For an AD, ticket sales are the measure that matters most. Having all of the ticket buyers come to the game is a nice plus.

It totally depends. If that "ticket sold" was a giveaway to a charity (which is very common), and then nobody shows up...it'll appear as paid attendance, but the department earned zero dollars from it. No shows might have paid for a ticket, but they don't pay for parking, they don't buy hot dogs, 50-50 raffle tickets, or any of the other things you want them to pay for.

Tickets sold is an important number, but depending on the school and situations, butts in seats can still matter a LOT.

Researchers work with the best data sets they can get. The most complete and "uniform" data set is the official numbers, but any serious researcher knows those numbers aren't concrete. That's part of why people pay us to file FOIAs.

(09-16-2023 10:07 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  75% of the money goes to the NCAA???

That's highway robbery.

Yup. Financials behind FCS football have a lot of problems.

If you watch a game where the camera angles rarely show the crowd, then the school most likely reports more than attend the game. Some even avoid following the ball on a punts to avoid showing the 25,000 announced crowd which is really 10,000.

(09-16-2023 10:07 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 07:53 PM)clunk Wrote:  FCS playoffs probably have the most accurate count in all of NCAA. The host school owes the NCAA 75% of the gate so there's huge incentive to not overcount, but you also want to show fan interest so you don't undercount.

75% of the money goes to the NCAA???

That's highway robbery.

The NCAA also pays pretty much everything for the visiting team, officials, media, etc. Anybody that pulls 10k attendance does just fine.
It's those Thanksgiving weekend games among the participation ribbon teams drawing 1-2k that's the problem. Unbelievable money pit the rest of the bracket can't make up for.

(09-17-2023 11:48 AM)clunk Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 10:07 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 07:53 PM)clunk Wrote:  FCS playoffs probably have the most accurate count in all of NCAA. The host school owes the NCAA 75% of the gate so there's huge incentive to not overcount, but you also want to show fan interest so you don't undercount.

75% of the money goes to the NCAA???

That's highway robbery.

The NCAA also pays pretty much everything for the visiting team, officials, media, etc. Anybody that pulls 10k attendance does just fine.
It's those Thanksgiving weekend games among the participation ribbon teams drawing 1-2k that's the problem. Unbelievable money pit the rest of the bracket can't make up for.

Thanksgiving weekend games are the best.

(09-17-2023 12:59 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-17-2023 11:48 AM)clunk Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 10:07 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 07:53 PM)clunk Wrote:  FCS playoffs probably have the most accurate count in all of NCAA. The host school owes the NCAA 75% of the gate so there's huge incentive to not overcount, but you also want to show fan interest so you don't undercount.

75% of the money goes to the NCAA???

That's highway robbery.

The NCAA also pays pretty much everything for the visiting team, officials, media, etc. Anybody that pulls 10k attendance does just fine.
It's those Thanksgiving weekend games among the participation ribbon teams drawing 1-2k that's the problem. Unbelievable money pit the rest of the bracket can't make up for.

Thanksgiving weekend games are the best.

He's talking about FCS playoff games that can't draw flies on Thanksgiving weekend.

(09-16-2023 11:05 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  It totally depends. If that "ticket sold" was a giveaway to a charity (which is very common), and then nobody shows up...it'll appear as paid attendance, but the department earned zero dollars from it. No shows might have paid for a ticket, but they don't pay for parking, they don't buy hot dogs, 50-50 raffle tickets, or any of the other things you want them to pay for.

See: Nebraska

(09-16-2023 11:05 PM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 07:24 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  [quote='Michael in Raleigh' pid='19150605' dateline='1694908866']
Does anyone else wish there was some sort of standardized method for counting attendance at games, at the conference level if not FBS-wide.

I get annoyed seeing P5 AND G5 programs reporting 45,000 fans at their games, when the pictures of the stadium mid-first quarter tell a wildly different story.

App had 40,168 in attendance today vs. ECU, which was standing room only and, I'm pretty sure, the maximum the fire department will allow. It matched the number of fans attending the UNC game last year (the 63-61 shootout) to tie for largest home crowd ever. Anyone who watched those games could see that that is how many people were there; not an empty seat in the house.

Shouldn't tickets scanned be the standard?

It would be nice, but getting standardized almost ANYTHING when it comes to data collection is almost impossible in college sports. The budget numbers this board (and Twitter) likes to argue about a lot...from the FRS reports...are NOT standardized. Attendance isn't either. It probably *should* be, but
a) not every event actually uses ticket scanning
b) the ticket scanners break on a non-irregular basis, and user error, I'm told, can be high
c) nobody in NCAA governance REALLY cares to push about this all that much

The official NCAA attendance numbers are not accurate representations of how many people actually showed up. The most accurate count anybody is going to get for how many people walked into the door is ticket scans, and the only way to get that is via Open Records Request, which I've done hundreds of times in my career.

A good rule of thumb is what the actual attendance is at least 10% less than whatever the school says it was. In some cases, the error could be north of 20%.

Quote:

Everyone's excited about a full house. For an AD, ticket sales are the measure that matters most. Having all of the ticket buyers come to the game is a nice plus.

It totally depends. If that "ticket sold" was a giveaway to a charity (which is very common), and then nobody shows up...it'll appear as paid attendance, but the department earned zero dollars from it. No shows might have paid for a ticket, but they don't pay for parking, they don't buy hot dogs, 50-50 raffle tickets, or any of the other things you want them to pay for.

Tickets sold is an important number, but depending on the school and situations, butts in seats can still matter a LOT.

Researchers work with the best data sets they can get. The most complete and "uniform" data set is the official numbers, but any serious researcher knows those numbers aren't concrete. That's part of why people pay us to file FOIAs.

(09-16-2023 10:07 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  75% of the money goes to the NCAA???

That's highway robbery.

Yup. Financials behind FCS football have a lot of problems.

Colleges don't get nearly the supplemental revenue from ticket buyers actually showing up that the pros do. People tailgate, so they don't buy as much food as people usually do at pro games. And maybe colleges leave money on the table as they seem to have fewer, slower concession lines as well as many fewer choices. A lot of the parking is not affiliated with the university, whereas pros like to have captive lots, particularly in the newer stadiums.

What we are not to believe our lying eyes?

I think schools need to put the 2020 cardboard cutouts in the stands and just have the fan actual hand them to the usher when the arrive.

By the way, I always have admired the loyalty of App State fans and their attendance. Are there any future expansion plans at Kidd-Brewer? Still think the AAC made a huge mistake picking Charlotte over you all. But we know ECU is thrilled about it.

Very nervous but excited about the Pack/Mountaineers scheduled game. To me, you all have had the most consistent Football Program in NC and don't get the credit for it.

(09-16-2023 07:01 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  Does anyone else wish there was some sort of standardized method for counting attendance at games, at the conference level if not FBS-wide.

No.

[quote='MattBrownEP' pid='19152492' dateline='1694923545']
It would be nice, but getting standardized almost ANYTHING when it comes to data collection is almost impossible in college sports...

...ticket scanners break on a non-irregular basis, and user error, I'm told, can be high... The most accurate count anybody is going to get for how many people walked into the door is ticket scans, and the only way to get that is via Open Records Request, which I've done hundreds of times in my career.
[quote]

Every point you made is correct, including this one. I'd like to add a personal anecdote: last weekend, my family and I were in Atlanta and GT was selling upper deck tickets for $3 (for the SC State game), so I thought "sure, let's go". When I got to the ticket scanner - which was working - I had trouble pulling up the scan code on my cell phone, so the ticket taker just waved me on. Four people never scanned, and I'm sure we weren't the only ones.

By the way, we bought 3 bottles of water for $5 each and one small coke for $6 before getting rained out. So I still have never seen a Yellow Jackets game in person at Bobby Dodd...

(09-17-2023 01:35 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  What we are not to believe our lying eyes?

I think schools need to put the 2020 cardboard cutouts in the stands and just have the fan actual hand them to the usher when the arrive.

By the way, I always have admired the loyalty of App State fans and their attendance. Are there any future expansion plans at Kidd-Brewer? Still think the AAC made a huge mistake picking Charlotte over you all. But we know ECU is thrilled about it.

Very nervous but excited about the Pack/Mountaineers scheduled game. To me, you all have had the most consistent Football Program in NC and don't get the credit for it.

Have you seen the AI robots in the stands of the Chargers game last week? Interesting times

I agree with your take on App State. Most consistent program in the state and they don't get the credit that they should.

[quote='Hokie Mark' pid='19153822' dateline='1694980305']
[quote='MattBrownEP' pid='19152492' dateline='1694923545']
It would be nice, but getting standardized almost ANYTHING when it comes to data collection is almost impossible in college sports...

...ticket scanners break on a non-irregular basis, and user error, I'm told, can be high... The most accurate count anybody is going to get for how many people walked into the door is ticket scans, and the only way to get that is via Open Records Request, which I've done hundreds of times in my career.
[quote]

Every point you made is correct, including this one. I'd like to add a personal anecdote: last weekend, my family and I were in Atlanta and GT was selling upper deck tickets for $3 (for the SC State game), so I thought "sure, let's go". When I got to the ticket scanner - which was working - I had trouble pulling up the scan code on my cell phone, so the ticket taker just waved me on. Four people never scanned, and I'm sure we weren't the only ones.

By the way, we bought 3 bottles of water for $5 each and one small coke for $6 before getting rained out. So I still have never seen a Yellow Jackets game in person at Bobby Dodd...
[/quote]

Extensive rain delay? I really don't remember the weather being bad for very long that day.