RE: Mountain West: SDSU left the conference and owes $17 million
(07-09-2023 01:52 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:
(07-09-2023 08:32 AM)johnbragg Wrote:
(07-08-2023 10:41 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:
(07-07-2023 03:09 PM)OneSockUp Wrote:
(07-07-2023 02:18 PM)johnbragg Wrote: I think their prioritizing the money that's realistically collectible over the money that they're theoretically entitled to but would probably never actually see.
If San Diego State gets their Pack 12 invite on September 1st, the Mountain West is already collected one year of distributions. They'd be collecting another year of distributions in 2024. So they've already got their hands on 12 million of the 18 or so million exit fee.
Compare that to accepting San Diego's claim. They send San Diego a check for the 2023 distributions. Then San Diego State gets their Pac-12 invite on September 1st. San Diego State theoretically owes 34 million. The Mountain West claims their 2024 distributions. The Mountain West is collected 6 million, San Diego State owes 30 million. Good luck collecting that 30 million
I see what you're saying, but I'd rather be owed $34 million than have $6 million in hand and be owed $10 million. The break-even on the amount owed would be roughly 1/3 of what's due. (And I imagine it would be much easier to collect if the MWC hadn't been such a jerk about it the first time around.)
Withholding the $6.6m is a tacit admission that they never expected the entire $17m for full notice. They'll withhold next year's amount, too, then all parties agree that $13.2m is plenty.
I don't see how that follows at all. The MWC bylaws for Timely Notice say that they withhold the 2023 and 2024 distributions, with the balance due by June 30 (or July 1) 2024.
You might be right that they end up settling for the $12-13M, but I don't see how withholding the 2023 distributions, as per the MWC bylaws covering a June 13 2023 withdrawal effective June 30 2024, admits anything.
I'm just trying to get my head wrapped around why the MWC would take the sure $6.6m instead of the likelihood of an additional $17m. If they really expected to get the full $17m for normal notice, or $34m for too-short of notice, then the best play by far was to agree last month that SDSU didn't actually resign at all. A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush, $6.6m isn't much compared to $34m. My guess is that SDSU will successfully challenge the MWC's exit fees as punitive and excessive, the MWC knows this, so they're taking what they can get when they can get it.
something like that. I thought you were saying it's an admission that would somehow matter in court.
they expect to get the $18m or close to it, because they completely control $12m, the 2023 and 2024 distributions. they'll get some or all of the other $6M. SDSU seems to really want to spread out the exit fee, so that might give the MWC the leverage for the full $17-18M.
if it goes to court. SDSU will definitely challenge the legitimacy if exit fees. and they might win. or they might not, nobody knows and the conferences don't really want to find out.
RE: Mountain West: SDSU left the conference and owes $17 million
(07-09-2023 08:33 AM)johnbragg Wrote:
(07-09-2023 07:01 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:
(07-08-2023 10:41 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:
(07-07-2023 03:09 PM)OneSockUp Wrote:
(07-07-2023 02:18 PM)johnbragg Wrote:
Withholding the $6.6m is a tacit admission that they never expected the entire $17m for full notice. They'll withhold next year's amount, too, then all parties agree that $13.2m is plenty.
No the MWC will not agree that 13.2 is plenty. Teams don't leave without paying the normal exit fee, They often negotiate the extra amount for leaving early. Ucf, Cincy, Tx, OK, UH, UCLA, USC, and UConn were all perfect examples of this.
The AAC has been a little bit different, with the $10M list price exit fee and the crazy, never-enforced 27 month waiting period. Other conferences seem to treat the list price exit fee as the crazy, never-enforced part. But we'll see what happens.
Who let people out a discount. TX and OK paid full exit plus more to buy out of GOR, All 4 that have left the AAC have paid full exit plus 7 mil to get out early. The new AAC schools are paying the full 3mil exit fee from CUSA. exactly who has not paid full exit fee. early leave is different animal, that has been negotiated to both sides benefit.
RE: Mountain West: SDSU left the conference and owes $17 million
(07-10-2023 07:37 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:
(07-09-2023 08:33 AM)johnbragg Wrote:
(07-09-2023 07:01 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:
(07-08-2023 10:41 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:
(07-07-2023 03:09 PM)OneSockUp Wrote:
Withholding the $6.6m is a tacit admission that they never expected the entire $17m for full notice. They'll withhold next year's amount, too, then all parties agree that $13.2m is plenty.
No the MWC will not agree that 13.2 is plenty. Teams don't leave without paying the normal exit fee, They often negotiate the extra amount for leaving early. Ucf, Cincy, Tx, OK, UH, UCLA, USC, and UConn were all perfect examples of this.
The AAC has been a little bit different, with the $10M list price exit fee and the crazy, never-enforced 27 month waiting period. Other conferences seem to treat the list price exit fee as the crazy, never-enforced part. But we'll see what happens.
Who let people out a discount. TX and OK paid full exit plus more to buy out of GOR, All 4 that have left the AAC have paid full exit plus 7 mil to get out early. The new AAC schools are paying the full 3mil exit fee from CUSA. exactly who has not paid full exit fee. early leave is different animal, that has been negotiated to both sides benefit.
I've been one of those saying that these exit fees always seem to get bargained downward, but you are disabusing me of that notion.
I guess Maryland got out of the ACC at a reduced rate? But your examples are more numerous, and a lot more recent.
So maybe there is more at stake in the SDS/MW drama than I have imagined, LOL.
RE: Mountain West: SDSU left the conference and owes $17 million
Maryland was a bit different, they voted against increasing the exit fee from 17 mil to 51. But nonetheless they are the exception to the rule. SD state has no excuse to get out cheaper.
RE: Mountain West: SDSU left the conference and owes $17 million
(07-10-2023 07:37 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:
(07-09-2023 08:33 AM)johnbragg Wrote:
(07-09-2023 07:01 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:
(07-08-2023 10:41 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:
(07-07-2023 03:09 PM)OneSockUp Wrote:
Withholding the $6.6m is a tacit admission that they never expected the entire $17m for full notice. They'll withhold next year's amount, too, then all parties agree that $13.2m is plenty.
No the MWC will not agree that 13.2 is plenty. Teams don't leave without paying the normal exit fee, They often negotiate the extra amount for leaving early. Ucf, Cincy, Tx, OK, UH, UCLA, USC, and UConn were all perfect examples of this.
The AAC has been a little bit different, with the $10M list price exit fee and the crazy, never-enforced 27 month waiting period. Other conferences seem to treat the list price exit fee as the crazy, never-enforced part. But we'll see what happens.
Who let people out a discount. TX and OK paid full exit plus more to buy out of GOR, All 4 that have left the AAC have paid full exit plus 7 mil to get out early. The new AAC schools are paying the full 3mil exit fee from CUSA. exactly who has not paid full exit fee. early leave is different animal, that has been negotiated to both sides benefit.
No, Big 12 list price exit fee is two years' distributions, roughly $80M a piece. They're paying $50M a piece.
CUSA's exit fees get paid. The Sun Belt 3 settled for about the same amount as the list-price CUSA exit fee.
I suspect how hard the conference tries to enforce the exit fee is based on how well the conference thinks they can defend that exit fee in court. CUSA has a record of what happens to their TV deal with each series of defections. The Big 12 has a record of what happens to their exit fees, and now a list of precedents for other schools being able to negotiate down.
Mountain West is perfectly capable of collecting the first 2/3 of the SDSU exit fee. It's the part you'd have to go to court to chase that's tricky.
If all 10 PAC schools are still in the PAC in six months, and SDSU gets their PAC invite, I suspect they'll make a deal to pay the full $17-18M exit fee, spread out over 4 or 5 years. IF SDSU is joining a PAC that is missing 2-4 of the current schools, with a $10-15M per school per year TV contract, they'll probably push back harder on the exit fee, together with whoever else the PAC takes from the MWC to backfill.
RE: Mountain West: SDSU left the conference and owes $17 million
(07-07-2023 03:51 PM)jacksfan29! Wrote:
(07-07-2023 12:09 PM)UIWElite Wrote:
(07-07-2023 11:58 AM)bullet Wrote:
(07-07-2023 11:20 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:
(07-07-2023 10:57 AM)The Sicatoka Wrote: Conversations mean squat.
Signed documents (contracts, letters) are what courts decide on.
SDSU signed a letter.
They signed a letter asking for an extension on the date by which they needed to give notice that they were leaving.
If there is any ambiguity (which I don't even think there is), that was cleared up two days later, when SDSU sent written notice that the MWC misinterpreted their SDSU's letter of intent.
Should a court go beyond the basic law -- that a letter of intent is not legally binding -- then they can look at subsequent communication and see that the MWC was in no way harmed by SDSU's letter in the two days that there was any confusion.
SDSU has played this perfectly. They got a 17 day extension without any sacrifice.
SDSU-I'm giving formal notice.
MWC-We understand and accept.
SDSU-Woops, not really.
Sorry, that doesn't work.
It does in this situation. It wouldn't work if ULM did that to the Sun Belt. The MWC is significantly worse off without SDSU.
Are they? Tell us, if SDSU are of such great value, why has the PAC not offered already? If they added this grand value, would you not want them in place while you negotiate a new media deal?
Its pretty simple. Just because they're not as valuable to the Pac 12 doesn't mean that they're worthless. If you give a millionaire a 2023 Honda Civic, its not as valuable to them, as someone making $75,000 a year.
RE: Mountain West: SDSU left the conference and owes $17 million
(07-10-2023 12:48 PM)johnbragg Wrote:
(07-10-2023 07:37 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:
(07-09-2023 08:33 AM)johnbragg Wrote:
(07-09-2023 07:01 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:
(07-08-2023 10:41 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote: Withholding the $6.6m is a tacit admission that they never expected the entire $17m for full notice. They'll withhold next year's amount, too, then all parties agree that $13.2m is plenty.
No the MWC will not agree that 13.2 is plenty. Teams don't leave without paying the normal exit fee, They often negotiate the extra amount for leaving early. Ucf, Cincy, Tx, OK, UH, UCLA, USC, and UConn were all perfect examples of this.
The AAC has been a little bit different, with the $10M list price exit fee and the crazy, never-enforced 27 month waiting period. Other conferences seem to treat the list price exit fee as the crazy, never-enforced part. But we'll see what happens.
Who let people out a discount. TX and OK paid full exit plus more to buy out of GOR, All 4 that have left the AAC have paid full exit plus 7 mil to get out early. The new AAC schools are paying the full 3mil exit fee from CUSA. exactly who has not paid full exit fee. early leave is different animal, that has been negotiated to both sides benefit.
No, Big 12 list price exit fee is two years' distributions, roughly $80M a piece. They're paying $50M a piece.
CUSA's exit fees get paid. The Sun Belt 3 settled for about the same amount as the list-price CUSA exit fee.
I suspect how hard the conference tries to enforce the exit fee is based on how well the conference thinks they can defend that exit fee in court. CUSA has a record of what happens to their TV deal with each series of defections. The Big 12 has a record of what happens to their exit fees, and now a list of precedents for other schools being able to negotiate down.
Mountain West is perfectly capable of collecting the first 2/3 of the SDSU exit fee. It's the part you'd have to go to court to chase that's tricky.
If all 10 PAC schools are still in the PAC in six months, and SDSU gets their PAC invite, I suspect they'll make a deal to pay the full $17-18M exit fee, spread out over 4 or 5 years. IF SDSU is joining a PAC that is missing 2-4 of the current schools, with a $10-15M per school per year TV contract, they'll probably push back harder on the exit fee, together with whoever else the PAC takes from the MWC to backfill.
Good point about the Big 12 exit fee and TX and OU. They do seem to have saved $30m each or so off of that.
And IIRC, a portion of the $$$ TX and OU are paying is going to FOX to compensate them for lost TX/OU 2024 games, so the amount going to the Big 12 is less than even the $50m each.
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2023 07:32 AM by quo vadis.)
RE: Mountain West: SDSU left the conference and owes $17 million
(07-10-2023 07:37 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:
(07-09-2023 08:33 AM)johnbragg Wrote:
(07-09-2023 07:01 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:
(07-08-2023 10:41 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:
(07-07-2023 03:09 PM)OneSockUp Wrote:
Withholding the $6.6m is a tacit admission that they never expected the entire $17m for full notice. They'll withhold next year's amount, too, then all parties agree that $13.2m is plenty.
No the MWC will not agree that 13.2 is plenty. Teams don't leave without paying the normal exit fee, They often negotiate the extra amount for leaving early. Ucf, Cincy, Tx, OK, UH, UCLA, USC, and UConn were all perfect examples of this.
The AAC has been a little bit different, with the $10M list price exit fee and the crazy, never-enforced 27 month waiting period. Other conferences seem to treat the list price exit fee as the crazy, never-enforced part. But we'll see what happens.
Who let people out a discount. TX and OK paid full exit plus more to buy out of GOR, All 4 that have left the AAC have paid full exit plus 7 mil to get out early. The new AAC schools are paying the full 3mil exit fee from CUSA. exactly who has not paid full exit fee. early leave is different animal, that has been negotiated to both sides benefit.
...the only instance that I can remember, and I don't remember the details and numbers, but when USM/Marshall/ODU jumped out of CUSA early, and it seemed that they 'cut a deal' which wasn't as bad as the original required fees... ...lots of folks from all three of those entities are afoot on the board which can expound much further on it than I can...
(This post was last modified: 07-12-2023 10:21 AM by GreenFreakUAB.)
RE: Mountain West: SDSU left the conference and owes $17 million
(07-12-2023 10:20 AM)GreenFreakUAB Wrote:
(07-10-2023 07:37 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:
(07-09-2023 08:33 AM)johnbragg Wrote:
(07-09-2023 07:01 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:
(07-08-2023 10:41 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote: Withholding the $6.6m is a tacit admission that they never expected the entire $17m for full notice. They'll withhold next year's amount, too, then all parties agree that $13.2m is plenty.
No the MWC will not agree that 13.2 is plenty. Teams don't leave without paying the normal exit fee, They often negotiate the extra amount for leaving early. Ucf, Cincy, Tx, OK, UH, UCLA, USC, and UConn were all perfect examples of this.
The AAC has been a little bit different, with the $10M list price exit fee and the crazy, never-enforced 27 month waiting period. Other conferences seem to treat the list price exit fee as the crazy, never-enforced part. But we'll see what happens.
Who let people out a discount. TX and OK paid full exit plus more to buy out of GOR, All 4 that have left the AAC have paid full exit plus 7 mil to get out early. The new AAC schools are paying the full 3mil exit fee from CUSA. exactly who has not paid full exit fee. early leave is different animal, that has been negotiated to both sides benefit.
...the only instance that I can remember, and I don't remember the details and numbers, but when USM/Marshall/ODU jumped out of CUSA early, and it seemed that they 'cut a deal' which wasn't as bad as the original required fees... ...lots of folks from all three of those entities are afoot on the board which can expound much further on it than I can...
No, the Sun Belt 3 ended up paying about the same amount as they would have if they stayed another year and had distributions withheld.
The Separation Agreement
It was previously reported that the typical Conference USA exit fee was $3 million, but the conference and the universities agreed to settle for a $1.75 million buyout. This was also a penalty for not giving the required 14 months’ notice before leaving. Southern Miss was required to pay the fee within 30 calendar days of receiving the notice, which it appears they have done so.
The document revealed that Conference USA would not withhold any funding towards the universities from the NCAA, including the academic enhancing fund, academic performance fund, student assistance fund, sports sponsorships and grants-in-aid. Conference USA stated that they would not distribute any other funding towards the universities regarding the 2021-2022 fiscal year. This includes $400,000 for the C-USA television contract in football as well as $1 million from the conference for bowl appearances.
$1.75 plus $1.4M is about $3.2M, which is about the two-years-distributions that are the CUSA list price exit fee.
The Big 12, nobody pays list price exit fee. The AAC, everybody pays list price and more, but nobody waits for the 27 month waiting period. the ACC, only Maryland has left in modern history, they settled out of court, ACC held on to two years' distributions, gave up on the difference between 2 years' distributions and 3 years of conference-budget.
RE: Mountain West: SDSU left the conference and owes $17 million
A bit more from BY:
“The great thing about my board and my AD partnership is that we collaborate all the time. We can agree to disagree on certain things and we have throughout the year. I’ve learned a lot from both governance groups, but again, if within the value equation, there is alignment, Power 5 or non-Power 5, we’ll look to pursue it."
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Mountain West: SDSU left the conference and owes $17 million
