(01-18-2023 10:06 PM)shampoo Wrote:  Season is over. Personally, I wouldn’t waste another year on Oliver. More transfers to come, and I don’t think he/his staff will recruit better in.

Yes has to be some high level teams that need a good assistant coach. Some coaches are just not cut out to be head coaches.

ive been very critical of coach oliver but i will say after his comments monday night on his coaches show and what he had to say about tipler and seeing the effort they gave tonight their might be hope maybe as an inexperienced coach he's finally learning quit trying to be their friend and demand the effort or have consequences yes the guard play is bad but if this team is at full strength and gives that kind of effort and energy that they played with tonight I think they could win plenty of games we actually should all be pulling for him to improve and succeed as a coach because no programs turn out well that have constant coaching turnover

Even though it was a 10-point loss, this is one of the better games we've played this year. The effort was there from each team member. Everyone that played contributed. Coach even took responsibility for a bad decision he made at the end of the game.
In spite of a couple turnovers, I thought Strothers looked the most comfortable I've seen him all year. I don't know if it'll happen but I see glimpses of him developing into a solid guard.
I don't know whether free throw shooting cost us the game but it sure made it that much more difficult.
We had to be absolutely perfect to win tonight and we were not.

Yes the effort was there tonight. But the bad turnovers and horrible free throw shooting cost us yet another game we could have won.

Personnel questions:

1. You all may remember me saying I was worried about Tipler in terms of "team rules" back in Nov.(?) when he was left out of a game. (Think he didn't even make the road trip, wherever it was to.) Well, without getting specific, that worry has borne fruit. Don't think it's a lost cause yet, but I could be wrong.

2. Weird 30 seconds of Cameron George there.

3. Was Gregory even on the bench tonight? Hope he hasn't also entered the portal, but wouldn't shock me. And wouldn't blame him.

4. Not to pontificate, really, but Strothers is doing well for a freshman. Or at least ok. Yes, he certainly has frailties, but yeah - he's a freshman.

5a. Thought Oliver was strikingly (and refreshingly!) blunt recounting his conversation with Hairston. Wish he'd be more forthcoming about other 'situations', but oh well......

5b. Yes, this team has some turmoil.............but it seems that Oliver is at least *trying* to set a template for what an ETSU player should be under his watch. Stay tuned..........or not?

6. [Counting Oliver as "personnel"............] All you guys who are calling for his head, for his contract to be bought out, finding another coach, etc., etc., etc., are getting way ahead of yourselves. I'm not some Dick Sander whisperer, but I think he'll still be here next year, barring some sort of scandal or catastrophe or something. He's trying really, really hard at a job that is really, really hard. Can he grow into it? I don't know, but (imo) some of you all need to take a chill pill.

Separately from that..............................is there anyone here who can prove that all this isn't karma/bad juju from the twin debacles of Corley, and Noland caving to the politicians? I don't normally ascribe to that kind of stuff, but seriously..............we've had a ridiculous amount of misfortune - not just injuries and drama, but on-the-court stuff, too, the way balls have bounced, etc. Truly, some really crazy stuff, that if ones adds it all up, makes one wonder.....

(01-18-2023 11:41 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  Personnel questions:

1. You all may remember me saying I was worried about Tipler in terms of "team rules" back in Nov.(?) when he was left out of a game. (Think he didn't even make the road trip, wherever it was to.) Well, without getting specific, that worry has borne fruit. Don't think it's a lost cause yet, but I could be wrong.

2. Weird 30 seconds of Cameron George there.

3. Was Gregory even on the bench tonight? Hope he hasn't also entered the portal, but wouldn't shock me. And wouldn't blame him.

4. Not to pontificate, really, but Strothers is doing well for a freshman. Or at least ok. Yes, he certainly has frailties, but yeah - he's a freshman.

5a. Thought Oliver was strikingly (and refreshingly!) blunt recounting his conversation with Hairston. Wish he'd be more forthcoming about other 'situations', but oh well......

5b. Yes, this team has some turmoil.............but it seems that Oliver is at least *trying* to set a template for what an ETSU player should be under his watch. Stay tuned..........or not?

6. [Counting Oliver as "personnel"............] All you guys who are calling for his head, for his contract to be bought out, finding another coach, etc., etc., etc., are getting way ahead of yourselves. I'm not some Dick Sander whisperer, but I think he'll still be here next year, barring some sort of scandal or catastrophe or something. He's trying really, really hard at a job that is really, really hard. Can he grow into it? I don't know, but (imo) some of you all need to take a chill pill.

Separately from that..............................is there anyone here who can prove that all this isn't karma/bad juju from the twin debacles of Corley, and Noland caving to the politicians? I don't normally ascribe to that kind of stuff, but seriously..............we've had a ridiculous amount of misfortune - not just injuries and drama, but on-the-court stuff, too, the way balls have bounced, etc. Truly, some really crazy stuff, that if ones adds it all up, makes one wonder.....

OK — digging up that dead horse - how would you have handled that political situation by first and foremost, defending and protecting ETSU as an institution that had done nothing wrong prior, by defending the rights granted in the First Amendment, by respecting the veterans there next door at the VA Center, by dealing with the area politicians, and by dealing with the donors to the athletic department — all of this in rapid motion at the same time.. Give us your detailed specifics of how this should have been handled by Noland. Bet your plan would still have Carter as AD, Shay as coach, and we would be sitting atop the SoCon standings today.

The issues/karma of the past have nothing to do with the current product that Oliver is putting on the floor. These are Oliver's players and this is his team, he recruited all of them. He is the owner of the current 7-game home losing streak and counting. This is his offense and this is his defense. The past is the past, and the future does not look very bright. Oliver is a disaster and we are stuck watching him destroy everything that was accomplished before his arrival. We are going to have back to back losing seasons for the 1st time since the 95-96 and 96-97 seasons, and let's be honest, the SoCon is not very strong this year.

(01-19-2023 09:47 AM)ETSU4Life Wrote:  The issues/karma of the past have nothing to do with the current product that Oliver is putting on the floor. These are Oliver's players and this is his team, he recruited all of them. He is the owner of the current 7-game home losing streak and counting. This is his offense and this is his defense. The past is the past, and the future does not look very bright. Oliver is a disaster and we are stuck watching him destroy everything that was accomplished before his arrival. We are going to have back to back losing seasons for the 1st time since the 95-96 and 96-97 seasons, and let's be honest, the SoCon is not very strong this year.

Totally agree. The past is the past. We see new coaches come in and totally revamp teams in one year utilizing the Portal. In two years programs can be completely changed over again. Two years is enough if the coach is a competent head coach.

(01-19-2023 10:18 AM)bucfan81 Wrote:  

(01-19-2023 09:47 AM)ETSU4Life Wrote:  The issues/karma of the past have nothing to do with the current product that Oliver is putting on the floor. These are Oliver's players and this is his team, he recruited all of them. He is the owner of the current 7-game home losing streak and counting. This is his offense and this is his defense. The past is the past, and the future does not look very bright. Oliver is a disaster and we are stuck watching him destroy everything that was accomplished before his arrival. We are going to have back to back losing seasons for the 1st time since the 95-96 and 96-97 seasons, and let's be honest, the SoCon is not very strong this year.

Totally agree. The past is the past. We see new coaches come in and totally revamp teams in one year utilizing the Portal. In two years programs can be completely changed over again. Two years is enough if the coach is a competent head coach.

Two years is enough to see at least progress within the program, and not the deterioration that is currently on display.

(01-19-2023 09:47 AM)ETSU4Life Wrote:  The issues/karma of the past have nothing to do with the current product that Oliver is putting on the floor. These are Oliver's players and this is his team, he recruited all of them. He is the owner of the current 7-game home losing streak and counting. This is his offense and this is his defense. The past is the past, and the future does not look very bright. Oliver is a disaster and we are stuck watching him destroy everything that was accomplished before his arrival. We are going to have back to back losing seasons for the 1st time since the 95-96 and 96-97 seasons, and let's be honest, the SoCon is not very strong this year.

Also completely agree. Those who keep bringing up Bartow as ‘bad’ and beating that horse, Oliver makes Bartow look like Mike Krzyzewski. To allow this to continue — fans in the seats, even ticket holders not in the seats, could depart and never return given all the forms of entertainment out there in which to migrate and spend their money. And, what about the donors (who are, of course, ticket holders) — how much more are they going to put up with? Are Sander and Noland getting an earful?

(01-19-2023 08:00 AM)Buc66 Wrote:  

(01-18-2023 11:41 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  Personnel questions:

1. You all may remember me saying I was worried about Tipler in terms of "team rules" back in Nov.(?) when he was left out of a game. (Think he didn't even make the road trip, wherever it was to.) Well, without getting specific, that worry has borne fruit. Don't think it's a lost cause yet, but I could be wrong.

2. Weird 30 seconds of Cameron George there.

3. Was Gregory even on the bench tonight? Hope he hasn't also entered the portal, but wouldn't shock me. And wouldn't blame him.

4. Not to pontificate, really, but Strothers is doing well for a freshman. Or at least ok. Yes, he certainly has frailties, but yeah - he's a freshman.

5a. Thought Oliver was strikingly (and refreshingly!) blunt recounting his conversation with Hairston. Wish he'd be more forthcoming about other 'situations', but oh well......

5b. Yes, this team has some turmoil.............but it seems that Oliver is at least *trying* to set a template for what an ETSU player should be under his watch. Stay tuned..........or not?

6. [Counting Oliver as "personnel"............] All you guys who are calling for his head, for his contract to be bought out, finding another coach, etc., etc., etc., are getting way ahead of yourselves. I'm not some Dick Sander whisperer, but I think he'll still be here next year, barring some sort of scandal or catastrophe or something. He's trying really, really hard at a job that is really, really hard. Can he grow into it? I don't know, but (imo) some of you all need to take a chill pill.

Separately from that..............................is there anyone here who can prove that all this isn't karma/bad juju from the twin debacles of Corley, and Noland caving to the politicians? I don't normally ascribe to that kind of stuff, but seriously..............we've had a ridiculous amount of misfortune - not just injuries and drama, but on-the-court stuff, too, the way balls have bounced, etc. Truly, some really crazy stuff, that if ones adds it all up, makes one wonder.....

OK — digging up that dead horse - how would you have handled that political situation by first and foremost, defending and protecting ETSU as an institution that had done nothing wrong prior, by defending the rights granted in the First Amendment, by respecting the veterans there next door at the VA Center, by dealing with the area politicians, and by dealing with the donors to the athletic department — all of this in rapid motion at the same time.. Give us your detailed specifics of how this should have been handled by Noland. Bet your plan would still have Carter as AD, Shay as coach, and we would be sitting atop the SoCon standings today.

Yep, it's always virtuous for the casual intellectual to criticize the power structure when they're unwilling to step up and replace the donor money from those they abhor.

(01-18-2023 10:28 PM)frankenheimer Wrote:  Even though it was a 10-point loss, this is one of the better games we've played this year. The effort was there from each team member. Everyone that played contributed. Coach even took responsibility for a bad decision he made at the end of the game.
In spite of a couple turnovers, I thought Strothers looked the most comfortable I've seen him all year. I don't know if it'll happen but I see glimpses of him developing into a solid guard.
I don't know whether free throw shooting cost us the game but it sure made it that much more difficult.
We had to be absolutely perfect to win tonight and we were not.

I like this assessment.

Kudos to Coach Oliver for keeping this team motivated. And, for once, I was pleased with our guard play.

In particular, Strothers played a great first half: 2 for 4 shooting; 3 assists; 1 steal; and 1 turnover. For the game, King had no turnovers, and Smith had only 1. That's even more impressive considering Samford used an attacking, aggressive press throughout the game. Unfortunately, Strothers had 3 turnovers in the second half, and two of those came at critical points in the game.

The first of those second-half turnovers, roughly midway through the period, was on a charging call, which I would argue should have been called blocking. The second came at a critical point, when Strothers made a lazy cross-court pass that would have been deemed a poor attempt in any high school game. But, to his credit, Strothers raced back, blocked the layup attempt, and the Bucs defended the rest of the possession without Samford scoring. The third turnover, also at a critical time, was the botched attempt at a timeout call. Coach Oliver took responsibility for that, which is nice, but it was still a bad play by Strothers.

I've criticized our guard play all season, and I've criticized Coach Oliver's failure to recruit the guard position since before the season started, but I'm not going to complain about this game. Sure, there's still lots of room for improvement, but improvement has been made.

At this point, that's what this team needs to do. Work hard every day, getting better individually and as a team, and let's see how good this team can be at the end of the year.

Oliver's contract says that we would owe him $350,000 compensation if we fire him between April 1, 2023 and March 31, 2024. If we fire him before April 1, we would owe $400,000. Jason Shay's contract was written that firing a coach without cause the university would be responsible to pay Shay's salary for the term of the contract.

The two contracts would seem to have very different financial implications for the university. It is the difference between owing Oliver $350,000 lump sum vs. $325,000 for the next three years. I would think that this contract wording would put Oliver on the hot seat sooner than I had originally thought.

(01-19-2023 11:08 AM)etsubuc Wrote:  Oliver's contract says that we would owe him $350,000 compensation if we fire him between April 1, 2023 and March 31, 2024. If we fire him before April 1, we would owe $400,000. Jason Shay's contract was written that firing a coach without cause the university would be responsible to pay Shay's salary for the term of the contract.

The two contracts would seem to have very different financial implications for the university. It is the difference between owing Oliver $350,000 lump sum vs. $325,000 for the next three years. I would think that this contract wording would put Oliver on the hot seat sooner than I had originally thought.

Wow I did not know that. Indeed that changes the equation about how Noland/Sander approach this.

Could be worse. Could be playing in the ASun

(01-19-2023 10:51 AM)squeak Wrote:  

(01-19-2023 08:00 AM)Buc66 Wrote:  OK — digging up that dead horse - how would you have handled that political situation by first and foremost, defending and protecting ETSU as an institution that had done nothing wrong prior, by defending the rights granted in the First Amendment, by respecting the veterans there next door at the VA Center, by dealing with the area politicians, and by dealing with the donors to the athletic department — all of this in rapid motion at the same time.. Give us your detailed specifics of how this should have been handled by Noland. Bet your plan would still have Carter as AD, Shay as coach, and we would be sitting atop the SoCon standings today.

Yep, it's always virtuous for the casual intellectual to criticize the power structure when they're unwilling to step up and replace the donor money from those they abhor.

No, not gonna go dig up that dead horse and beat it - yet again. No point in that. I'll only say that integrity is WAY more important and valuable than money. Apparently some of you all don't see life that way. Ok. Next....... My personal opinion is that Noland also believes that, but was caught in an unwinnable situation, and took the option of hoping that his remaining at ETSU will do more good in the long run than having to fall on the knife of integrity at that moment in time. No way to know, for now, if that assessment/choice will turn out to be proper. A lot of that is what his internal compass was reading, and doubt we'll ever know that - unless in 2048 or so he publishes a tell-all book.

And...........altho I also am not gonna get into this argument again..........yes, this is Oliver's second year, technically, but his first one really shouldn't count against him, with the turmoil and short time frame he came into. And, as I've said multiple times, I do fault him for painting too rosy a picture of his last-minute yes-we'll-take-you-because-we-don't-have-many-other-options "recruits". But come on, he walked into a can't-win situation and did sort of 'ok' with it, considering. Yes, there are a few coaches in this fair land who can work miracles in a year or 1.5, but Stever Forbeses don't grow on trees. I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt for now, especially considering his son is (still, we hope) coming into the fold this fall. And AGAIN............not to mention more than anyone's fair share of injuries have really hampered his player options. AND ALSO AGAIN.................I'm not some sort of Oliver apologist AT ALL, but you all are trying to make the few drops of blood in the water into a festering flesh wound. Ok, you be you; and I'll be the rational, "casual intellectual" (that's a new one on me, but fine) realist, even if it doesn't fit the narrative you all are trying to spin here. It's JUST TOO EARLY to pass judgement on him.

(01-19-2023 08:00 AM)Buc66 Wrote:  Bet your plan would still have Carter as AD, Shay as coach, and we would be sitting atop the SoCon standings today.

Just as a very quick rebuttal..................no shay would not have been coach (I have my reasons), and most certainly Carter would not be AD, because he NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN AD IN THE FIRST PLACE. Again, I urge some of you who were gung-ho on Carter to have a nice, long look in the mirror. Go back and read those threads when he became AD. Most of you were all on board with that - in a big way.

(01-19-2023 03:10 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  

(01-19-2023 08:00 AM)Buc66 Wrote:  Bet your plan would still have Carter as AD, Shay as coach, and we would be sitting atop the SoCon standings today.

Just as a very quick rebuttal..................no shay would not have been coach (I have my reasons), and most certainly Carter would not be AD, because he NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN AD IN THE FIRST PLACE. Again, I urge some of you who were gung-ho on Carter to have a nice, long look in the mirror. Go back and read those threads when he became AD. Most of you were all on board with that - in a big way.

After all you’ve said — you still haven’t told us what you would have done. And, you even have hindsight.

(01-19-2023 03:05 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  

(01-19-2023 10:51 AM)squeak Wrote:  

(01-19-2023 08:00 AM)Buc66 Wrote:  OK — digging up that dead horse - how would you have handled that political situation by first and foremost, defending and protecting ETSU as an institution that had done nothing wrong prior, by defending the rights granted in the First Amendment, by respecting the veterans there next door at the VA Center, by dealing with the area politicians, and by dealing with the donors to the athletic department — all of this in rapid motion at the same time.. Give us your detailed specifics of how this should have been handled by Noland. Bet your plan would still have Carter as AD, Shay as coach, and we would be sitting atop the SoCon standings today.

Yep, it's always virtuous for the casual intellectual to criticize the power structure when they're unwilling to step up and replace the donor money from those they abhor.

No, not gonna go dig up that dead horse and beat it - yet again. No point in that. I'll only say that integrity is WAY more important and valuable than money. Apparently some of you all don't see life that way. Ok. Next....... My personal opinion is that Noland also believes that, but was caught in an unwinnable situation, and took the option of hoping that his remaining at ETSU will do more good in the long run than having to fall on the knife of integrity at that moment in time. No way to know, for now, if that assessment/choice will turn out to be proper. A lot of that is what his internal compass was reading, and doubt we'll ever know that - unless in 2048 or so he publishes a tell-all book.

And...........altho I also am not gonna get into this argument again..........yes, this is Oliver's second year, technically, but his first one really shouldn't count against him, with the turmoil and short time frame he came into. And, as I've said multiple times, I do fault him for painting too rosy a picture of his last-minute yes-we'll-take-you-because-we-don't-have-many-other-options "recruits". But come on, he walked into a can't-win situation and did sort of 'ok' with it, considering. Yes, there are a few coaches in this fair land who can work miracles in a year or 1.5, but Stever Forbeses don't grow on trees. I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt for now, especially considering his son is (still, we hope) coming into the fold this fall. And AGAIN............not to mention more than anyone's fair share of injuries have really hampered his player options. AND ALSO AGAIN.................I'm not some sort of Oliver apologist AT ALL, but you all are trying to make the few drops of blood in the water into a festering flesh wound. Ok, you be you; and I'll be the rational, "casual intellectual" (that's a new one on me, but fine) realist, even if it doesn't fit the narrative you all are trying to spin here. It's JUST TOO EARLY to pass judgement on him.

I have been very critical of Oliver myself but I have to say everybody who keeps bringing up Bartow why is no one bringing up Jason Shay? this mess really started with him he was not a good head coach and he oversaw the non-basketball stuff that created the start of the roster turnover no one criticizes him because everyone loves Steve Forbes and he is his boy and I loved Forbes myself but let's be fair Jason Shay was part of the deterioration of the program and we will see if this guy can turn it around or not

(01-19-2023 04:21 PM)buc nekkid Wrote:  I have been very critical of Oliver myself but I have to say everybody who keeps bringing up Bartow why is no one bringing up Jason Shay? this mess really started with him he was not a good head coach and he oversaw the non-basketball stuff that created the start of the roster turnover no one criticizes him because everyone loves Steve Forbes and he is his boy and I loved Forbes myself but let's be fair Jason Shay was part of the deterioration of the program and we will see if this guy can turn it around or not

Others here have criticized shay. In fact, for those paying attention, I quit capitalizing shay's name for the same reason I quit capitalizing bartow's: lack of respect. Altho Forbes set up the Corley situation, it was shay who pulled the trigger (on bringing in Adehke at the last minute, leaving Corley out in the cold). That truly shocked me, altho in retrospect it maybe shouldn't have. shay "earned" his chance - but really, he was never gonna be a great head coach (anywhere - not just at ETSU). I don't wanna say why here. Just one example of what Carter couldn't see.