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News Arizona County Chair Reveals He Was Forced to Certify Katie Hobbs’ Election ‘Under Du
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Arizona County Chair Reveals He Was Forced to Certify Katie Hobbs’ Election ‘Under Du
(12-01-2022 08:55 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Our controls to prevent election fraud are not by any means, "weak". Could they be better? Of course, there's always room for improvement. That being said, they are most likely the strongest they have ever been thanks to modern technology. You're a fool with little knowledge of what your local election officials actually do if you continue to believe otherwise.

trump and his idiot cult have been claiming elections were stolen since he lost his first race to Ted Cruz way back in Iowa, February of 2016. Nearly 6 years ago!

Since then, there's been nothing to even hint at this being accurate, much less possible.

Of course they are weak. These systems represent relatively low priority government funded expenditures provided by the lowest bidder----that typically dont help politicians attract financial donations or increase voter support. In other words----we spend comparatively little money on voter security compared with everything else. With massive amounts of money at stake---banks invest far more money into security with real time monitoring and high level security encryption----and yet we still have tons of credit card and bank fraud. But if you ask a bank or credit card security officer Im sure he will tell you its incredibly secure and there is little fraud (even though thats pretty much a lie).

Virtually every person who says that election security is practically fraud free is basically paid to say that because their job relies on it. Nobody spends any money what so ever really checking to see if there is any fraud---and if you dont look for it---how in the hell do you know its not there? I figure if people can crack billion dollar financial security systems (or even US Defense Department systems---yes it happens)---they can certainly crack the code on local county election systems where half the employees could probably care less about their duties and minor security violations are generally overlooked as "irrelevant". Can I tell you for sure its happening? Nope. Can you tell me for sure its not? Nope. But common sense tells me if they can do it to banks or a defense contractor---they can certainly do it to a County Election Operation where security isnt exactly hitting the level of Fort Knox. I would not have the slightest idea where the exploitable flaws in voter security are----but I will guarantee there are exploitable flaws in voter security---especially when large numbers of mail in ballots are in play.

Point is---even if they actually suspected it was true---you will NEVER see someone in charge of an election say it was screwed up. You will NEVER have a voting machine company tell you their company security protocols may have been outfoxed. You will never have a winner of an election spend a bunch of money looking into the fraud factor in his own election win. So 1000 articles with top "election officials" and representatives from election machine companies telling me how incredibly fraud free their last election was doesnt really do much for me. And to be clear---Im just saying Im pretty sure there is fraud----I just have no idea if there is enough to change election outcomes. No way to know that without spending a ton of money----and nobody is going to do that.
(This post was last modified: 12-01-2022 07:33 PM by Attackcoog.)
12-01-2022 07:10 PM
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U_of_Elvis Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Arizona County Chair Reveals He Was Forced to Certify Katie Hobbs’ Election ‘Under Du
(12-01-2022 07:10 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(12-01-2022 08:55 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Our controls to prevent election fraud are not by any means, "weak". Could they be better? Of course, there's always room for improvement. That being said, they are most likely the strongest they have ever been thanks to modern technology. You're a fool with little knowledge of what your local election officials actually do if you continue to believe otherwise.

trump and his idiot cult have been claiming elections were stolen since he lost his first race to Ted Cruz way back in Iowa, February of 2016. Nearly 6 years ago!

Since then, there's been nothing to even hint at this being accurate, much less possible.

Of course they are weak. These systems represent relatively low priority government funded expenditures provided by the lowest bidder----that typically dont help politicians attract financial donations or increase voter support. In other words----we spend comparatively little money on voter security compared with everything else. With massive amounts of money at stake---banks invest far more money into security with real time monitoring and high level security encryption----and yet we still have tons of credit card and bank fraud. But if you ask a bank or credit card security officer Im sure he will tell you its incredibly secure and there is little fraud (even though thats pretty much a lie).

Virtually every person who says that election security is practically fraud free is basically paid to say that because their job relies on it. Nobody spends any money what so ever really checking to see if there is any fraud---and if you dont look for it---how in the hell do you know its not there? I figure if people can crack billion dollar financial security systems (or even US Defense Department systems---yes it happens)---they can certainly crack the code on local county election systems where half the employees could probably care less about their duties and minor security violations are generally overlooked as "irrelevant". Can I tell you for sure its happening? Nope. Can you tell me for sure its not? Nope. But common sense tells me if they can do it to banks or a defense contractor---they can certainly do it to a County Election Operation where security isnt exactly hitting the level of Fort Knox. I would not have the slightest idea where the exploitable flaws in voter security are----but I will guarantee there are exploitable flaws in voter security---especially when large numbers of mail in ballots are in play.

Point is---even if they actually suspected it was true---you will NEVER see someone in charge of an election say it was screwed up. You will NEVER have a voting machine company tell you their company security protocols may have been outfoxed. You will never have a winner of an election spend a bunch of money looking into the fraud factor in his own election win. So 1000 articles with top "election officials" and representatives from election machine companies telling me how incredibly fraud free their last election was doesnt really do much for me. And to be clear---Im just saying Im pretty sure there is fraud----I just have no idea if there is enough to change election outcomes. No way to know that without spending a ton of money----and nobody is going to do that.

You are forgetting that paper is immutable. Once it is printed it can’t be hacked.

All of these elections had risk limiting audits, some had recounts, and some even had full hand recounts. If they were hacked the paper wouldn’t match the electronic tally.

Those types of controls mean election fraud isn’t something that could be executed on a broad scale by a very small group of peopled. It would take collusion from local and state officials at a massive scale. That’s where conspiracy theories fall apart, no one can keep a secret that big.
12-01-2022 07:47 PM
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Post: #43
RE: Arizona County Chair Reveals He Was Forced to Certify Katie Hobbs’ Election ‘Under Du
I did find evidence of someone violating the security of a voting machine.

https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-...77893790d1
12-01-2022 09:27 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Arizona County Chair Reveals He Was Forced to Certify Katie Hobbs’ Election ‘Under Du
(12-01-2022 07:47 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  Those types of controls mean election fraud isn’t something that could be executed on a broad scale by a very small group of peopled.

No, they don't. They don't even address the issue of fraudulent voters at all.
12-01-2022 09:54 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Arizona County Chair Reveals He Was Forced to Certify Katie Hobbs’ Election ‘Under Du
(12-01-2022 09:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-01-2022 07:47 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  Those types of controls mean election fraud isn’t something that could be executed on a broad scale by a very small group of peopled.

No, they don't. They don't even address the issue of fraudulent voters at all.

So why don’t tell us how fraud would be executed on a broad scale by a small group? Because they can’t do it via electronic means.
12-01-2022 10:05 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Arizona County Chair Reveals He Was Forced to Certify Katie Hobbs’ Election ‘Under Du
(12-01-2022 10:05 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  
(12-01-2022 09:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-01-2022 07:47 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  Those types of controls mean election fraud isn’t something that could be executed on a broad scale by a very small group of peopled.

No, they don't. They don't even address the issue of fraudulent voters at all.

So why don’t tell us how fraud would be executed on a broad scale by a small group? Because they can’t do it via electronic means.

I don’t know how to commit fraud at a bank—-but it still happens every day. I don’t know how to steal top secret plans for parts of an F-35 fighter jet—--but there are people that figured out holes in our security systems and managed to do it. I guarantee there are people who know exactly where the vulnerabilities exist in various voter security systems and all it takes is for one of them to be willing to show someone how to exploit that gap or vulnerability. Pretending it can’t be done is silly—which is why I think we should be spending substantial sums annually doing major spot audits of mail in ballots. It’s incredibly labor intensive—-but if you’re not doing something like that there is no way to know if your system is being gamed or not. What I do know is you'll never find fraud if you make no effort to actually look for it.

Ive said this one hundred times---but there is no more "proof" that 2020 was "the most secure election in history" than there is that the 2020 election was stolen. They both are unprovable allegations with little hard evidence as support. Given the number of mail in ballots that were cast in areas that had never utilized mail in ballots at that kind of scale---its almost asinine to pretend there was absolutely no fraud. Was there enough fraud to change the outcome? Thats an entirely different question that I have no way of knowing and I suspect we will never really know for sure (similar conjecture still swirls around the 1960 Kennedy vs Nixon election). One thing I am sure of is the Democrats are miles ahead of the Republicans in their ballot harvesting efforts and it would behoove the Republicans to adapt by creating a similar (or better) ballot harvesting operation.
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2022 01:21 AM by Attackcoog.)
12-02-2022 12:13 AM
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Post: #47
RE: Arizona County Chair Reveals He Was Forced to Certify Katie Hobbs’ Election ‘Under Du
(12-01-2022 10:05 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  
(12-01-2022 09:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-01-2022 07:47 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  Those types of controls mean election fraud isn’t something that could be executed on a broad scale by a very small group of peopled.
No, they don't. They don't even address the issue of fraudulent voters at all.
So why don’t tell us how fraud would be executed on a broad scale by a small group? Because they can’t do it via electronic means.

First, it doesn't have to be executed on a broad scale to be effective. You're not going to commit enough fraud to turn an election where the winner gets more than 60% of the vote, such as the four Utah HOR seats in 2022. And it you did, the results would be patently and obviously unbelievable to the extent that fraud would be obvious. But small scale fraud would be enough to turn elections as close as Boebert (51.1%) v Frisch (49.9%) or Duarte (50.2%) v Gray (49.8%). Even in presidential elections, I would bet that in Florida in 2000 there were more fraudulent votes on both sides than the eventual margin (537 votes) which sent Bush to the white house instead of Gore. So your question is improperly worded and out of order.

Second, any time a person can submit a ballot without having to verify his/her identity through some objective, verifiable means (which pretty much means photo ID or finger/thumb print) the door is wide open for identity fraud. And once that ballot gets into the box, our necessary and appropriate secret ballot provisions pretty much mean that it isn't coming back out. So the fraud has to be detected and prevented up front in order for any controls to be effective. Recounts and audits don't do that.

If I can get a list of dead people that have not been removed from the voting rolls, or residents of a nursing home or other mass care facility where I can exercise undue influence over a large group, and I don't have to provide photo or finger/thumb print verification, then I can make voter fraud happen pretty quickly and easily, and on a scale large enough to swing close elections. Remember "Landslide Lyndon" and Duval County in 1948.
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2022 07:01 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-02-2022 07:00 AM
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Post: #48
RE: Arizona County Chair Reveals He Was Forced to Certify Katie Hobbs’ Election ‘Under Du
(12-02-2022 07:00 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-01-2022 10:05 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  
(12-01-2022 09:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-01-2022 07:47 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  Those types of controls mean election fraud isn’t something that could be executed on a broad scale by a very small group of peopled.
No, they don't. They don't even address the issue of fraudulent voters at all.
So why don’t tell us how fraud would be executed on a broad scale by a small group? Because they can’t do it via electronic means.

First, it doesn't have to be executed on a broad scale to be effective. You're not going to commit enough fraud to turn an election where the winner gets more than 60% of the vote, such as the four Utah HOR seats in 2022. And it you did, the results would be patently and obviously unbelievable to the extent that fraud would be obvious. But small scale fraud would be enough to turn elections as close as Boebert (51.1%) v Frisch (49.9%) or Duarte (50.2%) v Gray (49.8%). Even in presidential elections, I would bet that in Florida in 2000 there were more fraudulent votes on both sides than the eventual margin (537 votes) which sent Bush to the white house instead of Gore. So your question is improperly worded and out of order.

Second, any time a person can submit a ballot without having to verify his/her identity through some objective, verifiable means (which pretty much means photo ID or finger/thumb print) the door is wide open for identity fraud. And once that ballot gets into the box, our necessary and appropriate secret ballot provisions pretty much mean that it isn't coming back out. So the fraud has to be detected and prevented up front in order for any controls to be effective. Recounts and audits don't do that.

If I can get a list of dead people that have not been removed from the voting rolls, or residents of a nursing home or other mass care facility where I can exercise undue influence over a large group, and I don't have to provide photo or finger/thumb print verification, then I can make voter fraud happen pretty quickly and easily, and on a scale large enough to swing close elections. Remember "Landslide Lyndon" and Duval County in 1948.

Doing it manually with real ballots can’t be don’t at any kind of scale without involving more people. People can’t keep keep secrets. That’s where every conspiracy theory breaks down.
12-02-2022 07:58 AM
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Post: #49
RE: Arizona County Chair Reveals He Was Forced to Certify Katie Hobbs’ Election ‘Under Du
(12-01-2022 02:29 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(12-01-2022 10:23 AM)gdunn Wrote:  
(12-01-2022 09:18 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-01-2022 08:55 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Our controls to prevent election fraud are not by any means, "weak".

Like hell they aren't.

I've spent my professional career dealing with physical and information security, and any publicly-traded corporation with such lax security would fail Sarbanes-Oxley.

Exactly.. When one side of the aisle doesn't want voter rolls cleared of people who no longer live in the area for which they are registered, are dead, or because said person hasn't voted in the last decade, one has to wonder why.. Also the same side is upset about voter ID.

Look, Republicans get their panties in a bunch and make false accusations about someone voting saying they are dead when the proof is that person is living. Republicans do find excuses to disenfranchise voters who have the right to vote. Republicans took heat for removing living people from their rolls when they took off the wrong person and kept the dead person on the rolls. Don't get me started on the ID issue. The Real ID issue is a government control of our lives. It is what China uses.
Please, get started.. Explain to me how showing an ID to vote is bad..

Why is purging voting rolls if someone has passed away, moved, or haven't voted in 3 cycles? Anytime I renew my driver's license I get a notice to register to vote or check my status to make sure I can vote..

How hard is it Dave? Are you saying old people or minorities are too dumb to register, or get an ID, or even make sure they're registered?
12-02-2022 11:54 AM
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RE: Arizona County Chair Reveals He Was Forced to Certify Katie Hobbs’ Election ‘Under Du
Republicans have been caught in the past elections and in this cycle of election of doing voter fraud. Is it okay for Republicans to cry wolf that there were no major voting cheating going on when Republicans are doing that? Stop saying it is all Democrats cheating when Republicans are doing this in all 50 states.
12-02-2022 12:00 PM
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RE: Arizona County Chair Reveals He Was Forced to Certify Katie Hobbs’ Election ‘Under Du
(12-02-2022 12:00 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Republicans have been caught in the past elections and in this cycle of election of doing voter fraud. Is it okay for Republicans to cry wolf that there were no major voting cheating going on when Republicans are doing that? Stop saying it is all Democrats cheating when Republicans are doing this in all 50 states.
Both sides have been caught Dave..

You dodged the question.. Try again.
12-02-2022 12:02 PM
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RE: Arizona County Chair Reveals He Was Forced to Certify Katie Hobbs’ Election ‘Under Du
(12-02-2022 12:02 PM)gdunn Wrote:  
(12-02-2022 12:00 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Republicans have been caught in the past elections and in this cycle of election of doing voter fraud. Is it okay for Republicans to cry wolf that there were no major voting cheating going on when Republicans are doing that? Stop saying it is all Democrats cheating when Republicans are doing this in all 50 states.
Both sides have been caught Dave..

You dodged the question.. Try again.

When they relook at votes back in the 2020's election? They found a lot of votes for Trump that were illegal votes, and been discounted. Like I said, Trump lost a lot of votes of Democrats, Independents and Moderate Republicans with what he have been saying. Trump embracing people like Kanye West who thinks Hitler is a good guy also hurt him as well. The problem is not who is cheating when cheating was not done, but with the candidates who spew the crap that Trump and Kanye West are spewing.
12-02-2022 12:14 PM
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gdunn Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Arizona County Chair Reveals He Was Forced to Certify Katie Hobbs’ Election ‘Under Du
(12-02-2022 12:14 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(12-02-2022 12:02 PM)gdunn Wrote:  
(12-02-2022 12:00 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Republicans have been caught in the past elections and in this cycle of election of doing voter fraud. Is it okay for Republicans to cry wolf that there were no major voting cheating going on when Republicans are doing that? Stop saying it is all Democrats cheating when Republicans are doing this in all 50 states.
Both sides have been caught Dave..

You dodged the question.. Try again.

When they relook at votes back in the 2020's election? They found a lot of votes for Trump that were illegal votes, and been discounted. Like I said, Trump lost a lot of votes of Democrats, Independents and Moderate Republicans with what he have been saying. Trump embracing people like Kanye West who thinks Hitler is a good guy also hurt him as well. The problem is not who is cheating when cheating was not done, but with the candidates who spew the crap that Trump and Kanye West are spewing.
Dave.. Both sides have been caught cheating.. Do you agree or disagree?

Secondly, you haven't "got started" on your drivel you posted earlier that I've asked you about...
12-02-2022 12:23 PM
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