(11-29-2022 01:47 PM)bcunn3128 Wrote:  

(11-29-2022 12:59 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(11-29-2022 12:12 PM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  

(11-29-2022 11:22 AM)IamN2daRockets! Wrote:  

(11-29-2022 10:27 AM)utxctrack Wrote:  When I was in college UC didn’t even have football or it was crappy. I think they were in the Metro Atlantic or some other defunct conference. Their rise over the last 30 years is incredible and it’s a shame that we never did that at Toledo.

So True UTXC

Like a lot of other things there is little community vision in the aggregate or $ support for UT.

Hell..... this is the city that basically declined to have the Danny Thomas (own son) Shriners hospital.

We shall overcome

Go Rockets!

Lots of money in Cincinnati including 5 corporations that make a ton of money like P&G, Kroger and huge financial institutions. Toledo's biggest companies have all struggled at some point. It doesn't hurt to have baseball and football franchises worth billions. Also there are three billionaire families in Cincy, led by the Scripps ($7.5 B). Unfortunately, there are no super-wealthy in Toledo.

I was going to make same point, plus larger alumni base and local community (population) to draw upon. And you are right although there is some "new" and "old" money in Toledo and NW Ohio, its not nearly that large or extensive,and what there is here is already committed to other social, educational and community needs. I could be wrong, but also seems like UT Athletics has already "tapped" into the big donors with interested in Rockets sports. I am sure there remains potential, especially towards the middle and bottom of the fund raising pyramid (many smaller donors) but doubt that is also anywhere near same potential that exists in Cincinnati.

Which is why the deal that Candle got makes no sense at this University. The only way to justify it would be if we had landed in the top 25 a season or two, and this was to try to keep him here (and we all know where they would have gone).

Appalachian State…Coastal Carolina…Liberty…UTSA…Tulane…all pretty comparable G5 programs that have spent time in the top 25 at one time or another in the past few seasons. No Toledo. That, IMO, was the expectation for the compensation package. If expectations aren’t meant, there are consequences.

Liberty paid Freeze 4 million!

https://coacheshotseat.com/CFBCoachesSalaries.htm

McElwain paid more than Candle. 117th highest paid coach after incentives was still 1million... That is Lester at WMU. The amt of money we spend is still behind 20 G5 teams. Cincy, Ucf, and Houston who are moving up all pay 4 or 5mil. The AAC isnt close to par with the MAC. Fresno, CSU, Boise also pay double what we do.

We have known for a while that spending of all types in MAC was falling behind other programs and conferences, and was only going to get worse. MAC programs simply don't have the budgets or donors to keep up during such a dramatic "arms race" ongoing in CFB -thats just the truth and reality folks...

(11-29-2022 02:51 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  We have known for a while that spending of all types in MAC was falling behind other programs and conferences, and was only going to get worse. MAC programs simply don't have the budgets or donors to keep up during such a dramatic "arms race" ongoing in CFB -thats just the truth and reality folks...

Plus, a portion of student fees go to athletics. At UT, the student population is going down and so is the budget. Another reality.

The dominoes may fall with the bottom of the MAC going first... Happy we are at the top. I could see about 6 programs surviving a decade down the road. NIU probably isnt one of them.

(11-29-2022 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  The dominoes may fall with the bottom of the MAC going first... Happy we are at the top. I could see about 6 programs surviving a decade down the road. NIU probably isnt one of them.

UT's financial situation overall is definitely in the bottom 6 of the MAC.

(11-29-2022 02:46 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  Liberty paid Freeze 4 million!

Liberty has all the evangelical christian money behind them, like BYU does with the Mormons. But we do not want to be like liberty and their sleezy background.

The MAC could be relegated to a FCS footprint. I don't know if that would be that bad of out of conference football around here. Teams like N. Dakota St., Montana Grizzlies, New Hampshire, Indiana State, etc. , which are some teams that I pick out of the hat. I don't attendance would would be worst than what it is now on MAC Tuesday games.

I don't think Toledo Rockets Athletics is going to collapse but I could certainly see a future MAC without two divisions but all teams gathered in one conference. And unfortunately UT simply does not have the budget or fund raising capacity to raise enough additional funds that would be needed to jump to another conference.

(11-29-2022 04:13 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-29-2022 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  The dominoes may fall with the bottom of the MAC going first... Happy we are at the top. I could see about 6 programs surviving a decade down the road. NIU probably isnt one of them.

UT's financial situation overall is definitely in the bottom 6 of the MAC.

Akron, Kent, Ball State, NIU, EMU, BG DOOOO NOTTTT make more money than us. They dont have fans in any sports, and create zero revenue outside OOC paydays. Created revenue by sports, theres no way we arent top 3 (Ohio and CMU). WBB having 4k fans has to aleviate a giant dent compared to 300 other WBB programs.

(11-30-2022 11:29 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-29-2022 04:13 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-29-2022 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  The dominoes may fall with the bottom of the MAC going first... Happy we are at the top. I could see about 6 programs surviving a decade down the road. NIU probably isnt one of them.

UT's financial situation overall is definitely in the bottom 6 of the MAC.

Akron, Kent, Ball State, NIU, EMU, BG DOOOO NOTTTT make more money than us. They dont have fans in any sports, and create zero revenue outside OOC paydays. Created revenue by sports, theres no way we arent top 3 (Ohio and CMU). WBB having 4k fans has to aleviate a giant dent compared to 300 other WBB programs.

I'm talking about the University, not the AD...although, we lose more money per year than they do through their ADs too.

(11-30-2022 11:31 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:29 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-29-2022 04:13 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-29-2022 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  The dominoes may fall with the bottom of the MAC going first... Happy we are at the top. I could see about 6 programs surviving a decade down the road. NIU probably isnt one of them.

UT's financial situation overall is definitely in the bottom 6 of the MAC.

Akron, Kent, Ball State, NIU, EMU, BG DOOOO NOTTTT make more money than us. They dont have fans in any sports, and create zero revenue outside OOC paydays. Created revenue by sports, theres no way we arent top 3 (Ohio and CMU). WBB having 4k fans has to aleviate a giant dent compared to 300 other WBB programs.

I'm talking about the University, not the AD...although, we lose more money per year than they do through their ADs too.

Then we need more payday games right? No more fireworks at gamss if we are hemoraging? Find our grads better jobs so they pay it back?

(11-30-2022 11:39 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:31 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:29 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-29-2022 04:13 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-29-2022 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  The dominoes may fall with the bottom of the MAC going first... Happy we are at the top. I could see about 6 programs surviving a decade down the road. NIU probably isnt one of them.

UT's financial situation overall is definitely in the bottom 6 of the MAC.

Akron, Kent, Ball State, NIU, EMU, BG DOOOO NOTTTT make more money than us. They dont have fans in any sports, and create zero revenue outside OOC paydays. Created revenue by sports, theres no way we arent top 3 (Ohio and CMU). WBB having 4k fans has to aleviate a giant dent compared to 300 other WBB programs.

I'm talking about the University, not the AD...although, we lose more money per year than they do through their ADs too.

Then we need more payday games right? No more fireworks at gamss if we are hemoraging? Find our grads better jobs so they pay it back?

Need to cut dead-weight and work on the moneymakers when a business isn't running a surplus, right? There are some pretty huge fiscal losers at UT, including athletics which runs a fund deficit equal to 10% of the entire operating budget of the University. Going to be a tough next few years at UT...

(11-30-2022 11:58 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:39 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:31 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:29 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-29-2022 04:13 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  UT's financial situation overall is definitely in the bottom 6 of the MAC.

Akron, Kent, Ball State, NIU, EMU, BG DOOOO NOTTTT make more money than us. They dont have fans in any sports, and create zero revenue outside OOC paydays. Created revenue by sports, theres no way we arent top 3 (Ohio and CMU). WBB having 4k fans has to aleviate a giant dent compared to 300 other WBB programs.

I'm talking about the University, not the AD...although, we lose more money per year than they do through their ADs too.

Then we need more payday games right? No more fireworks at gamss if we are hemoraging? Find our grads better jobs so they pay it back?

Need to cut dead-weight and work on the moneymakers when a business isn't running a surplus, right? There are some pretty huge fiscal losers at UT, including athletics which runs a fund deficit equal to 10% of the entire operating budget of the University. Going to be a tough next few years at UT...

How you running at a defecit of 10% with top 25 attendance in wbb? That has to make up for something. Especially when free pizza and rally towels comes from Tricia and Todd directly.

What are the other MAC defecits from sports?

Shut the lights out more? We run these huge round ball socials and other fundraisers. Just reveived 250k from a single doner. Outside of WMU with the 500million dollar donation, and Kent States million graduates, Im befuddled.

(11-30-2022 12:47 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:58 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:39 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:31 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:29 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  Akron, Kent, Ball State, NIU, EMU, BG DOOOO NOTTTT make more money than us. They dont have fans in any sports, and create zero revenue outside OOC paydays. Created revenue by sports, theres no way we arent top 3 (Ohio and CMU). WBB having 4k fans has to aleviate a giant dent compared to 300 other WBB programs.

I'm talking about the University, not the AD...although, we lose more money per year than they do through their ADs too.

Then we need more payday games right? No more fireworks at gamss if we are hemoraging? Find our grads better jobs so they pay it back?

Need to cut dead-weight and work on the moneymakers when a business isn't running a surplus, right? There are some pretty huge fiscal losers at UT, including athletics which runs a fund deficit equal to 10% of the entire operating budget of the University. Going to be a tough next few years at UT...

How you running at a defecit of 10% with top 25 attendance in wbb? That has to make up for something. Especially when free pizza and rally towels comes from Tricia and Todd directly.

What are the other MAC defecits from sports?

Shut the lights out more? We run these huge round ball socials and other fundraisers. Just reveived 250k from a single doner. Outside of WMU with the 500million dollar donation, and Kent States million graduates, Im befuddled.

if that top 25 attendance in WBB was average of 10,000+ then the resulting revenue would be completely different, support for UT WBB is fantastic but we are talking about 4,000 fans-which is great but still not a huge money maker in a total UT Athletics annual budget of about $34m of which largest portion of revenue comes from student fees and direct transfer of funds from UT general operating budget, and UT Athletics is a best a barely break even financial unit.

(11-30-2022 02:18 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 12:47 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:58 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:39 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:31 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  I'm talking about the University, not the AD...although, we lose more money per year than they do through their ADs too.

Then we need more payday games right? No more fireworks at gamss if we are hemoraging? Find our grads better jobs so they pay it back?

Need to cut dead-weight and work on the moneymakers when a business isn't running a surplus, right? There are some pretty huge fiscal losers at UT, including athletics which runs a fund deficit equal to 10% of the entire operating budget of the University. Going to be a tough next few years at UT...

How you running at a defecit of 10% with top 25 attendance in wbb? That has to make up for something. Especially when free pizza and rally towels comes from Tricia and Todd directly.

What are the other MAC defecits from sports?

Shut the lights out more? We run these huge round ball socials and other fundraisers. Just reveived 250k from a single doner. Outside of WMU with the 500million dollar donation, and Kent States million graduates, Im befuddled.

if that top 25 attendance in WBB was average of 10,000+ then the resulting revenue would be completely different, support for UT WBB is fantastic but we are talking about 4,000 fans-which is great but still not a huge money maker in a total UT Athletics annual budget of about $34m of which largest portion of revenue comes from student fees and direct transfer of funds from UT general operating budget, and UT Athletics is a best a barely break even financial unit.

and in FY22, the Toledo Foundation transferred just over $3m in designated donations to Athletics, about 10% of their FY revenue

(11-30-2022 12:47 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:58 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:39 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:31 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:29 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  Akron, Kent, Ball State, NIU, EMU, BG DOOOO NOTTTT make more money than us. They dont have fans in any sports, and create zero revenue outside OOC paydays. Created revenue by sports, theres no way we arent top 3 (Ohio and CMU). WBB having 4k fans has to aleviate a giant dent compared to 300 other WBB programs.

I'm talking about the University, not the AD...although, we lose more money per year than they do through their ADs too.

Then we need more payday games right? No more fireworks at gamss if we are hemoraging? Find our grads better jobs so they pay it back?

Need to cut dead-weight and work on the moneymakers when a business isn't running a surplus, right? There are some pretty huge fiscal losers at UT, including athletics which runs a fund deficit equal to 10% of the entire operating budget of the University. Going to be a tough next few years at UT...

How you running at a defecit of 10% with top 25 attendance in wbb? That has to make up for something. Especially when free pizza and rally towels comes from Tricia and Todd directly.

What are the other MAC defecits from sports?

Shut the lights out more? We run these huge round ball socials and other fundraisers. Just reveived 250k from a single doner. Outside of WMU with the 500million dollar donation, and Kent States million graduates, Im befuddled.

Oh no, I was saying the losses accrued by Athletics account for 10% of the entire operating budget of the academic arm of UT (not accouting for UTMC). The AD only makes roughly $8.2M a year in operating revenue on funded operating expenses of $32M...so that's like a 300% deficit.

All of the MAC schools are at various levels of pain, but Ohio U, Miami, Buffalo, Western, and Kent are far more insulated than Eastern, Toledo, Ball State, NIU, and Akron when it comes to those financial issues as an institution. Also, UT's operating expenses are 2nd highest in the MAC, and most MAC schools pull in revenues between $7M-$10M...so yes, UT loses more than most others (roughly the same percentage though).

(11-29-2022 04:13 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-29-2022 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  The dominoes may fall with the bottom of the MAC going first... Happy we are at the top. I could see about 6 programs surviving a decade down the road. NIU probably isnt one of them.

UT's financial situation overall is definitely in the bottom 6 of the MAC.

Actually, not even close to accurate if you are talking about the entire university budget, I see the financial reports. Toledo actually has the 3rd largest overall budget in the MAC since it has a Medical School and Health Science Campus with a budget around $1 Billion dollars per year. Toledo has a very low level of debt compared to its peers, a very good debt rating by Standard & Poors and Moodys and they have the fourth largest endowment in the MAC which is just north of $500 million. The one glaring issue is declining enrollment and UT has found ways to cope, but that cant go on forever.

(11-30-2022 11:58 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:39 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:31 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-30-2022 11:29 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-29-2022 04:13 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  UT's financial situation overall is definitely in the bottom 6 of the MAC.

Akron, Kent, Ball State, NIU, EMU, BG DOOOO NOTTTT make more money than us. They dont have fans in any sports, and create zero revenue outside OOC paydays. Created revenue by sports, theres no way we arent top 3 (Ohio and CMU). WBB having 4k fans has to aleviate a giant dent compared to 300 other WBB programs.

I'm talking about the University, not the AD...although, we lose more money per year than they do through their ADs too.

Then we need more payday games right? No more fireworks at gamss if we are hemoraging? Find our grads better jobs so they pay it back?

Need to cut dead-weight and work on the moneymakers when a business isn't running a surplus, right? There are some pretty huge fiscal losers at UT, including athletics which runs a fund deficit equal to 10% of the entire operating budget of the University. Going to be a tough next few years at UT...

No MAC sports make money.

(12-01-2022 12:28 PM)stpeterocketfan Wrote:  

(11-29-2022 04:13 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-29-2022 04:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  The dominoes may fall with the bottom of the MAC going first... Happy we are at the top. I could see about 6 programs surviving a decade down the road. NIU probably isnt one of them.

UT's financial situation overall is definitely in the bottom 6 of the MAC.

Actually, not even close to accurate if you are talking about the entire university budget, I see the financial reports. Toledo actually has the 3rd largest overall budget in the MAC since it has a Medical School and Health Science Campus with a budget around $1 Billion dollars per year. Toledo has a very low level of debt compared to its peers, a very good debt rating by Standard & Poors and Moodys and they have the fourth largest endowment in the MAC which is just north of $500 million. The one glaring issue is declining enrollment and UT has found ways to cope, but that cant go on forever.

Everyone sees the financial reports, they're public domain...

UT's operating budget, including UTMC, is $813M for FY23...nowhere close to $1B. Looks like UTMC is running between a $1M-$3M surplus based on some re-capture reports from the last couple years. So they are essentially running at even over there, when it should be a huge net moneymaker based on the cost of care and amount of research dollars available to the medical industry.

The Academic Campus' total budget was $331M last year...

They've drawn down the endowment to the point where there were negative returns this past year...so yeah, unsustainably drawing from the endowment to buttress University finances that can't be supported as they currently operate.

Size of operating budget as a measure of financial health is a terrible thing to do. Check loss statements, draw downs of the endowment, etc. Debt service is fine if you can afford it...UT is losing money simply by operating with very little debt...which is way worse. UT is less financially stable than Buffalo, Miami, Ohio, Western Michigan, Bowling Green, and arguably Central Michigan and Kent State...and that's before you factor in that the primary revenue source of the University is collapsing in a way that no other University in the area is.