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Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
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GeminiCoog Online
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Post: #21
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
(11-28-2022 01:13 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  
(11-28-2022 01:00 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(11-28-2022 11:44 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Just so I have your position straight stinky.... As long as the means of production and wealth is in private hands all is fine. Correct?

Not 100% of the time. There are market inefficiencies and other weaknesses which come into play. But most of the time, absolutely.

Quote:And when that wealth is produced in that market economy that wealth can be protected privately through control of that wealth. Correct?

Sure. Why not? The alternative is some form of forced redistribution, which has never worked.

By the way, don't try to use Europe as an example were it has worked. Their systems were more redistributionist in the 1950s and 1960s, which you may be remembering. But that never worked. Europe in the 1970s was a terribly depressing place to be. I know, I spent time there. The Skinheads, among other groups, reacted largely to the depression. So Europe shifted gears. They still retain a comprehensive welfare safety net, but they reduced or eliminated the progressive tax systems designed to foster redistribution. First came the introduction of, and over time the increasing reliance upon, consumption taxes which are inherently regressive. Then in the 1990s and 2000s came the flattening and reducing of marginal income tax rates, accompanied in some cases by reducing or eliminating non-business exclusions and deductions to broaden the base. If you want to follow this progression, go to the OECD Tax Database at https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/tax-database/ and follow the changes in the historic tables. Europe is Social Democrat, not Socialism or Bernie's favorite deceptive moniker, Democratic Socialism. Today's USA democrats are more Socialist than Europe.

I am sure that I am considered a conservative on here (although libertarian conservative would be more correct) and I strongly oppose democrat tax and social welfare proposals, but I would be quite happy with adopting a lot of European Social Democracy, at least as long as Bismarck was the health care approach.

For the record, I would also think that we could stand to take a look at European abortion laws before arguing that USA laws in that area are draconian. The average time limit for elective abortion is 12 weeks, with only Holland (24 weeks) and Sweden (18 weeks) substantially longer. Most allow exceptions based on rape, incest, or health of mother or unborn child, but some do not, and six outlaw abortion in all cases and circumstances.

Quote:That regulation of society is done through money signaling among the wealthy. Correct? Do I have your position stated correctly?

No. Regulation of society is largely a function of Adam Smith's invisible hand of free market capitalism, the most powerful regulatory force that exists. Where one's actions negatively impact others, mechanisms should be in place for the victims to be compensated by the perp(s), but these should not be abused. There is nothing wrong with getting rich as long as it is done honestly and ethically.

Thank You, #s! … That’s easily much more diplomatic and informative than I would/could have provided!

Exactly. The only thing I'm not necessarily a fan of is the Bismarck health care (insurance?) plan. But I don't know of a better alternative other than to cut out the middle man and barter with doctors directly again and only use health insurance for major surgeries and such. And even then, it's a sticky subject. I may need the Numbered Owl Man to explain the Bismarck system to me one more time. (Maybe in a DM so I can refer back to it when I need to. What do you say, Owl#'s?)
11-28-2022 03:15 PM
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BartlettTigerFan Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
No there are no social goals more important than keeping the market completely free.
11-28-2022 03:15 PM
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tanqtonic Online
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Post: #23
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
I thought Trumps dinner with Kanye would have been interesting enough -- but Eric Fuentes?

What an absolute moron.
11-28-2022 03:19 PM
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GeminiCoog Online
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Post: #24
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
(11-28-2022 03:15 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  No there are no social goals more important than keeping the market completely free.

Exactly. You cannot punish the honest business owners out there just because there are a few bad actors who are willing to bend and even break business ethics codes and even the law. You can punish said bad actors for improper -- even illegal -- business practices, but only as long as you don't punish those who are honest business owners. And every single thing the left seems to advocate not only goes after those who would have bad intent, but also those who do business the right way. Besides, a free market economy is also, when truly free (which mean no megaconglomerates or cronyism or favoritism from the government of any kind), is also a meritocracy, and it will act in such a manner as to reward economic solutions to social problems arbitrarily, not through any forced measures from the government. Which is another reason I have a major problem with the whole push toward electric vehicles. Let the free market decide what the alternate energy source or sources (doesn't have to be one) will be. (Unfortuantely, there are those in government and in the private sector who have invested so much in certain so-called "solutions" they will do anything and everything they can to ensure they make as huge a profit as possible.)
(This post was last modified: 11-28-2022 03:28 PM by GeminiCoog.)
11-28-2022 03:27 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
(11-28-2022 03:15 PM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  I may need the Numbered Owl Man to explain the Bismarck system to me one more time. (Maybe in a DM so I can refer back to it when I need to. What do you say, Owl#'s?)

Bismarck is basically a universal private multi-payer and multi-provider health care system. Everybody gets a very basic health care plan funded directly or indirectly by government. The basic plans are provided by the states (Germany) or the unions (France) or private insurance companies (Switzerland, Holland). The government funding can be in the form of direct payment or a voucher or a refundable tax credit. If your basic plan sticks you in a queue or provides unsatisfactory care, you can go to a private for-profit health care provider. Everybody is able to buy upgraded or supplemental health insurance to cover private care and employers can provide it as a tax-deductible employee benefit, if you want something better than what the basic plan provides.

It differs from the Canadian single-payer system in that there are multiple payers (various insurance funds) and you can shop around for the coverage that best meets your needs, you have the option for paying out of pocket for private care, and you can buy supplemental (cheap) insurance to cover those private care situations. It differs from the UK single-provider system in that there are multiple government, non-profit, and for-profit health care providers and insurers, from which you are free to choose, and that supplemental insurance is an intentional part of the system (for example, employers can provide it as a tax-deductible employee benefit).

As the French system was explained to me when my mother had her hip replaced in Paris, there is a "free" side accessed for a 55 Euro copay with the basic insurance, that works like a single-payer/single-provider "socialized" (although don't call it socialized when speaking with a French person) system (where my mom could have spent months in the queue with a broken hip) and a "pay" side that works very much like the USA (we moved my mom to a pay side hospital that did the surgery the next morning, and they took Blue Cross). You get the basics (tetanus shots, setting broken arms) on the "free" side and move to the "pay" side for more complicated stuff or when the "free" side sticks you in a queue. Something like 99+% of the French have the basic care (only exception being people transitioning into or out of the country) and 90% purchase supplemental.

The Heritage plan proposed in the 1990s was very similar to Bismarck. The government funding was in the form of a refundable tax credit for purchasing health insurance, up to the cost of a basic plan. Above that was on your nickel (or your employer's).

Funny story--I was on a Rice alumni cruise on a French flag cruise line when I developed gall bladder problems and ultimately had to leave the ship for a hospital in Tallinn, Estonia. When I got my final bill from the ship, there was my 55 Euro charge for seeing the doc.
(This post was last modified: 11-28-2022 03:57 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
11-28-2022 03:46 PM
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TIGERCITY Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
(11-28-2022 03:12 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  
(11-28-2022 01:00 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(11-28-2022 11:44 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Just so I have your position straight stinky.... As long as the means of production and wealth is in private hands all is fine. Correct?

Not 100% of the time. There are market inefficiencies and other weaknesses which come into play. But most of the time, absolutely.

Quote:And when that wealth is produced in that market economy that wealth can be protected privately through control of that wealth. Correct?

Sure. Why not? The alternative is some form of forced redistribution, which has never worked.

By the way, don't try to use Europe as an example were it has worked. Their systems were more redistributionist in the 1950s and 1960s, which you may be remembering. But that never worked. Europe in the 1970s was a terribly depressing place to be. I know, I spent time there. The Skinheads, among other groups, reacted largely to the depression. So Europe shifted gears. They still retain a comprehensive welfare safety net, but they reduced or eliminated the progressive tax systems designed to foster redistribution. First came the introduction of, and over time the increasing reliance upon, consumption taxes which are inherently regressive. Then in the 1990s and 2000s came the flattening and reducing of marginal income tax rates, accompanied in some cases by reducing or eliminating non-business exclusions and deductions to broaden the base. If you want to follow this progression, go to the OECD Tax Database at https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/tax-database/ and follow the changes in the historic tables. Europe is Social Democrat, not Socialism or Bernie's favorite deceptive moniker, Democratic Socialism. Today's USA democrats are more Socialist than Europe.

I am sure that I am considered a conservative on here (although libertarian conservative would be more correct) and I strongly oppose democrat tax and social welfare proposals, but I would be quite happy with adopting a lot of European Social Democracy, at least as long as Bismarck was the health care approach.

For the record, I would also think that we could stand to take a look at European abortion laws before arguing that USA laws in that area are draconian. The average time limit for elective abortion is 12 weeks, with only Holland (24 weeks) and Sweden (18 weeks) substantially longer. Most allow exceptions based on rape, incest, or health of mother or unborn child, but some do not, and six outlaw abortion in all cases and circumstances.

Quote:That regulation of society is done through money signaling among the wealthy. Correct? Do I have your position stated correctly?

No. Regulation of society is largely a function of Adam Smith's invisible hand of free market capitalism, the most powerful regulatory force that exists. Where one's actions negatively impact others, mechanisms should be in place for the victims to be compensated by the perp(s), but these should not be abused. There is nothing wrong with getting rich as long as it is done honestly and ethically.

Good grief, I hope at least we can agree that there are some social goals more important than keeping the market completely free. The so-called invisible hand advocates tend to ignore or are willfully ignorant of the fact that the field is rarely ever level or access to markets is concerned. People are born into different circumstances. Pure libertarian free marketers, which you seem to be one, always seem to carve out exceptions where it suits them. Should educational opportunities be equal? Should healthcare opportunities be equal? I would think free market libertarians almost forced to backtrack and carve out exceptions because free market libertarianism doesn't work. Where in the world will you find a completely free market country. You won't. Even international trade is not completely free market ....with politics, the military, tariffs involved. Those in political power *within* countries aren't acting in the interests of others. People who already have an advantage do not seek the introduction of new competitors. They're acting in their own self-interest and in the interest of those who are in position to Grant favors back. Whether through votes, political alliances, lobbying groups which finance campaigns, or even under the table. All but under the table is free market right? Then how does the free market solve international problems? Problems like global warming. Businesses are unlikely to assume the extra cost associated was solving that problem unless there's some non-free market regulatory rule in effect. Then there are free markets and what they do with worker safety, with child labor as we've seen in the past. So-called free market needs an overarching regulatory system if they're going to function in a fair and acceptable way. So again, there are some social goals more important than keeping markets completely free. The so-called invisible hand sounds nice as a theory but it's real world effects don't necessarily lead to nice outcomes. Can we agree?

Owl can I at least get you to agree that libertarianism isn't an answer without regulation of some kind? That the "invisible hand" isn't the answer to real world problems that you seem to suggest. Education, health, worker safety, food safety, roads, and a host of other things might be best served by the government rather than private interest following the money. That you really don't think privatizing the sidewalks is a good idea otherwise some communities wouldn't have sidewalks or roads or healthcare or worker safety or food safety. So it's just a matter of how far you go in chipping away at the libertarian idea. But siding the invisible hand has a way to regulate society and decide policy means a lot of people are left out and left out through no fault of their own. But maybe that's what you mean.
11-28-2022 06:10 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
(11-28-2022 06:10 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  
(11-28-2022 03:12 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  
(11-28-2022 01:00 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(11-28-2022 11:44 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Just so I have your position straight stinky.... As long as the means of production and wealth is in private hands all is fine. Correct?

Not 100% of the time. There are market inefficiencies and other weaknesses which come into play. But most of the time, absolutely.

Quote:And when that wealth is produced in that market economy that wealth can be protected privately through control of that wealth. Correct?

Sure. Why not? The alternative is some form of forced redistribution, which has never worked.

By the way, don't try to use Europe as an example were it has worked. Their systems were more redistributionist in the 1950s and 1960s, which you may be remembering. But that never worked. Europe in the 1970s was a terribly depressing place to be. I know, I spent time there. The Skinheads, among other groups, reacted largely to the depression. So Europe shifted gears. They still retain a comprehensive welfare safety net, but they reduced or eliminated the progressive tax systems designed to foster redistribution. First came the introduction of, and over time the increasing reliance upon, consumption taxes which are inherently regressive. Then in the 1990s and 2000s came the flattening and reducing of marginal income tax rates, accompanied in some cases by reducing or eliminating non-business exclusions and deductions to broaden the base. If you want to follow this progression, go to the OECD Tax Database at https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/tax-database/ and follow the changes in the historic tables. Europe is Social Democrat, not Socialism or Bernie's favorite deceptive moniker, Democratic Socialism. Today's USA democrats are more Socialist than Europe.

I am sure that I am considered a conservative on here (although libertarian conservative would be more correct) and I strongly oppose democrat tax and social welfare proposals, but I would be quite happy with adopting a lot of European Social Democracy, at least as long as Bismarck was the health care approach.

For the record, I would also think that we could stand to take a look at European abortion laws before arguing that USA laws in that area are draconian. The average time limit for elective abortion is 12 weeks, with only Holland (24 weeks) and Sweden (18 weeks) substantially longer. Most allow exceptions based on rape, incest, or health of mother or unborn child, but some do not, and six outlaw abortion in all cases and circumstances.

Quote:That regulation of society is done through money signaling among the wealthy. Correct? Do I have your position stated correctly?

No. Regulation of society is largely a function of Adam Smith's invisible hand of free market capitalism, the most powerful regulatory force that exists. Where one's actions negatively impact others, mechanisms should be in place for the victims to be compensated by the perp(s), but these should not be abused. There is nothing wrong with getting rich as long as it is done honestly and ethically.

Good grief, I hope at least we can agree that there are some social goals more important than keeping the market completely free. The so-called invisible hand advocates tend to ignore or are willfully ignorant of the fact that the field is rarely ever level or access to markets is concerned. People are born into different circumstances. Pure libertarian free marketers, which you seem to be one, always seem to carve out exceptions where it suits them. Should educational opportunities be equal? Should healthcare opportunities be equal? I would think free market libertarians almost forced to backtrack and carve out exceptions because free market libertarianism doesn't work. Where in the world will you find a completely free market country. You won't. Even international trade is not completely free market ....with politics, the military, tariffs involved. Those in political power *within* countries aren't acting in the interests of others. People who already have an advantage do not seek the introduction of new competitors. They're acting in their own self-interest and in the interest of those who are in position to Grant favors back. Whether through votes, political alliances, lobbying groups which finance campaigns, or even under the table. All but under the table is free market right? Then how does the free market solve international problems? Problems like global warming. Businesses are unlikely to assume the extra cost associated was solving that problem unless there's some non-free market regulatory rule in effect. Then there are free markets and what they do with worker safety, with child labor as we've seen in the past. So-called free market needs an overarching regulatory system if they're going to function in a fair and acceptable way. So again, there are some social goals more important than keeping markets completely free. The so-called invisible hand sounds nice as a theory but it's real world effects don't necessarily lead to nice outcomes. Can we agree?

Owl can I at least get you to agree that libertarianism isn't an answer without regulation of some kind? That the "invisible hand" isn't the answer to real world problems that you seem to suggest. Education, health, worker safety, food safety, roads, and a host of other things might be best served by the government rather than private interest following the money. That you really don't think privatizing the sidewalks is a good idea otherwise some communities wouldn't have sidewalks or roads or healthcare or worker safety or food safety. So it's just a matter of how far you go in chipping away at the libertarian idea. But siding the invisible hand has a way to regulate society and decide policy means a lot of people are left out and left out through no fault of their own. But maybe that's what you mean.

The problem understanding Libertarian market theory..is that its theory. These ideas have not ever been allowed to be put to work. Most of us can't imagine a paradigm in which the market actually did handle most of the things you are talking about. One of the major components of this is insurance. Many of the things we allow the government to handle could be taken care of using the insurance industry. For example...Seat belts. If the insurance industry stopped paying for injuries due to not having a seat belt on...then people would put them on. Self interest plays a big part in how we behave. We have allowed the government to do much of the things that the marketplace backed up by insurance and a solid system of arbitration could handle cheaper and more efficiently. A good read for anyone is Milton Friedman's...."Capitalism and Freedom".
11-28-2022 06:32 PM
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stinkfist Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
(11-28-2022 11:34 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  How in the world can you say stink sounds like a socialist? That's some kind of delusion you have going on there.

that's some potent arse shite he's smokin', Ja?!
11-28-2022 07:26 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
(11-28-2022 07:26 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  
(11-28-2022 11:34 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  How in the world can you say stink sounds like a socialist? That's some kind of delusion you have going on there.

that's some potent arse shite he's smokin', Ja?!

Maybe like me...He has no idea WTF you are talking about most of the time.04-cheers
11-28-2022 07:32 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
(11-28-2022 03:12 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Good grief, I hope at least we can agree that there are some social goals more important than keeping the market completely free. The so-called invisible hand advocates tend to ignore or are willfully ignorant of the fact that the field is rarely ever level or access to markets is concerned. People are born into different circumstances. Pure libertarian free marketers, which you seem to be one, always seem to carve out exceptions where it suits them. Should educational opportunities be equal? Should healthcare opportunities be equal? I would think free market libertarians almost forced to backtrack and carve out exceptions because free market libertarianism doesn't work. Where in the world will you find a completely free market country. You won't. Even international trade is not completely free market ....with politics, the military, tariffs involved. Those in political power *within* countries aren't acting in the interests of others. People who already have an advantage do not seek the introduction of new competitors. They're acting in their own self-interest and in the interest of those who are in position to Grant favors back. Whether through votes, political alliances, lobbying groups which finance campaigns, or even under the table. All but under the table is free market right? Then how does the free market solve international problems? Problems like global warming. Businesses are unlikely to assume the extra cost associated was solving that problem unless there's some non-free market regulatory rule in effect. Then there are free markets and what they do with worker safety, with child labor as we've seen in the past. So-called free market needs an overarching regulatory system if they're going to function in a fair and acceptable way. So again, there are some social goals more important than keeping markets completely free. The so-called invisible hand sounds nice as a theory but it's real world effects don't necessarily lead to nice outcomes. Can we agree?

No, we can't. First, in no way am I suggesting anarchy, which is where free markets would have to go to permit the excesses you describe. Second, "acting in their own self-interest and in the interest of those who are in position to Grant [sic] favors" requires a system where there are people in position to grant such favors, and the more regulations you have, the more people you have in such positions. As far as specifics like education and health and welfare, I have made my positions well known on here and they are more free market than anything we have now.
11-30-2022 02:11 AM
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gdunn Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
(11-28-2022 11:08 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Well there we go labeling somebody with an ism... Out of the blue and with nothing to do with the op. As Greta Thunburg famously said "I dare you, I dare you." In fact, the ism name calling in this context is just another way for the powerful to keep not only their power but their wealth... Not that the two are separated by much. Isms used to label the *others* at their worst and *themselves and their tribe* at their best. It's replaced true debate.

You guys started it..

You actually did it a few weeks ago. I believe, "Anyone who uses the term Alpha Male is sexist"..

So you're a racist sexist?
11-30-2022 08:01 AM
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Post: #32
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
(11-30-2022 02:11 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(11-28-2022 03:12 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Good grief, I hope at least we can agree that there are some social goals more important than keeping the market completely free. The so-called invisible hand advocates tend to ignore or are willfully ignorant of the fact that the field is rarely ever level or access to markets is concerned. People are born into different circumstances. Pure libertarian free marketers, which you seem to be one, always seem to carve out exceptions where it suits them. Should educational opportunities be equal? Should healthcare opportunities be equal? I would think free market libertarians almost forced to backtrack and carve out exceptions because free market libertarianism doesn't work. Where in the world will you find a completely free market country. You won't. Even international trade is not completely free market ....with politics, the military, tariffs involved. Those in political power *within* countries aren't acting in the interests of others. People who already have an advantage do not seek the introduction of new competitors. They're acting in their own self-interest and in the interest of those who are in position to Grant favors back. Whether through votes, political alliances, lobbying groups which finance campaigns, or even under the table. All but under the table is free market right? Then how does the free market solve international problems? Problems like global warming. Businesses are unlikely to assume the extra cost associated was solving that problem unless there's some non-free market regulatory rule in effect. Then there are free markets and what they do with worker safety, with child labor as we've seen in the past. So-called free market needs an overarching regulatory system if they're going to function in a fair and acceptable way. So again, there are some social goals more important than keeping markets completely free. The so-called invisible hand sounds nice as a theory but it's real world effects don't necessarily lead to nice outcomes. Can we agree?

No, we can't. First, in no way am I suggesting anarchy, which is where free markets would have to go to permit the excesses you describe. Second, "acting in their own self-interest and in the interest of those who are in position to Grant [sic] favors" requires a system where there are people in position to grant such favors, and the more regulations you have, the more people you have in such positions. As far as specifics like education and health and welfare, I have made my positions well known on here and they are more free market than anything we have now.



"In the only cases in which the masses have escaped from the kind of grinding poverty you’re talking about, the only cases in recorded history, are where they have had capitalism and largely free trade. If you want to know where the masses are worst off, it’s exactly in the kinds of societies that depart from that. So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear, that there is no alternative way so far discovered of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by the free-enterprise system."

- Milton Friedman
11-30-2022 12:05 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.


(This post was last modified: 12-01-2022 02:29 PM by Redwingtom.)
12-01-2022 02:29 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
12-02-2022 09:28 AM
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WalkThePlank Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
Dude is legit crazy. Society needs to stop listening while platforming musicians and athlete's uninformed public views.
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2022 09:49 AM by WalkThePlank.)
12-02-2022 09:49 AM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
(12-02-2022 09:49 AM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  Dude is legit crazy. Society needs to stop listening while platforming musicians and athlete's uninformed public views.

And actors...and demoted piss testers...
12-02-2022 10:02 AM
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Post: #37
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
It pains me to say it, but I think there really is a political market out there for a plain-spoken anti-Semite. In a U.S. presidential election, that market probably has a ceiling of 3% or so of the popular vote (and that, only if the candidate runs a perfect campaign). But still.
12-02-2022 10:18 AM
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MileHighBronco Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.





The dude is not right in the head. When you're too extreme for AJ, and he tries to help you out of the hole you're digging............and you not only refuse but double down, you need help.
12-02-2022 10:28 AM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
(12-02-2022 10:18 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  It pains me to say it, but I think there really is a political market out there for a plain-spoken anti-Semite. In a U.S. presidential election, that market probably has a ceiling of 3% or so of the popular vote (and that, only if the candidate runs a perfect campaign). But still.

Yeah, sadly the old question of "How could people have let Hitler come to power?" gets more clearer every few days.

There's not doubt in my mind that a little of this aided trump in 2016...whether he knew it and stoked it intentionally or not, I'm not sure. Seemed like it though. My opinion...
12-02-2022 10:29 AM
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WalkThePlank Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Kanye West announces he will run for 2024 president.
That POS Fuentes nodding in agreement when Kanye says "I actually like Hitler" is disgusting. What morons.
12-02-2022 10:39 AM
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