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Would the SEC really offer a partial membership to Notre Dame?
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AllTideUp Offline
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Would the SEC really offer a partial membership to Notre Dame?
It makes sense on some level because I don't think the Big Ten would go there. This would be a way for the SEC(ESPN/Disney by extension) to grab the last remaining white whale and solidify predominance in the college sports market.

What are some positives?

1. Keep Notre Dame out of the competition's hands.

2. Better contract for an SEC/Notre Dame package of games.

3. Enhanced exposure for the SEC in markets where they do not currently have significant play.

4. The opportunity to be more creative in scheduling.

5. A bit off the wall, but Notre Dame hockey might need to find a new home and I think the SEC has revenue potential in creating a hockey league. Several of the schools already have competitive and well-organized club teams.

What are some negatives?

1. Perceived weakness.

2. The possibility of making other SEC full members envious of the special deal. There is great potential here for a sloppy wet slippery slope.

3. An inability to fully govern an important member. Not that Notre Dame is known for rebellious antics, but if everyone is not on the same team so to speak then there is potential for dissension on important issues that could not necessarily be handled in-house.

This approach would be a gamble. It could pay off big time or it could blow up. Depends a lot on what sort of financials we're talking about.

As for a potential setup, I think there are a few things to consider.

Creative scheduling will be key because you have to integrate Notre Dame games into the schedule. I would suggest a 6 game agreement. One game can be a neutral site game anywhere in the country...ideally in some great recruiting hotspots, however, maybe the SEC team could travel to some locales here and there we're not used to visiting.

Notre Dame vs an SEC team on a neutral field every single season...maybe it's a kickoff...maybe it's a midseason event. Maybe it's on Thanksgiving? I think that would be an interesting play, however, one that would have to involve an alteration of the regular season schedule to ensure the SEC rivals week was not on Thanksgiving weekend. To be honest, with the greater freedom that's coming, there's no reason the regular season has to finish up that week.

The other 5 games are much like what the ACC has. ND would rotate through the pool of schools. The home/away schedule will invert every year.

Basketball and other sports. Here, Notre Dame would be a full member with full privileges. Whatever revenue is generated would be split with Notre Dame equally.

However, there would be no football postseason access under the auspices of the SEC.

***Incentive package

Here's an idea. What if the SEC offered Notre Dame an incentive to play additional games? Notre Dame would be obligated to 6 in this scenario, but if they play more then they get a bonus check for each game played.
08-19-2022 07:20 PM
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bigblueblindness Offline
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RE: Would the SEC really offer a partial membership to Notre Dame?
I don't know...I see the positives, but Swarbrick has been playing the ACC like a fiddle and is completely controlling the narrative right now in terms of BIG expansion and media deals. He is working in the best interest of ND, and I think their passion of staying unique makes for a difficult partial member. There may come a day (maybe mid 2030's) when the cream of the crop from the SEC, BIG, and Notre Dame form a version of the Premier League, but I don't see them joining as a partial member of the SEC as currently composed.
(This post was last modified: 08-19-2022 08:54 PM by bigblueblindness.)
08-19-2022 08:52 PM
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RE: Would the SEC really offer a partial membership to Notre Dame?
If Notre Dame wants to join the SEC, it needs to be under the same terms and conditions as any other invitee. That includes a full-time commitment in all sports sponsored by the SEC of which ND has a team. I would expect the SEC majority members would not settle for anything less otherwise. A scheduling agreement may be plausible, but membership criteria is not a casual or “special treatment” matter.

I don’t blame Notre Dame for being smart and savvy. I don’t care for the unique enabling, and extending incentives to Notre Dame based on fallacious hope.
08-23-2022 12:21 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: Would the SEC really offer a partial membership to Notre Dame?
(08-23-2022 12:21 PM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  If Notre Dame wants to join the SEC, it needs to be under the same terms and conditions as any other invitee. That includes a full-time commitment in all sports sponsored by the SEC of which ND has a team. I would expect the SEC majority members would not settle for anything less otherwise. A scheduling agreement may be plausible, but membership criteria is not a casual or “special treatment” matter.

I don’t blame Notre Dame for being smart and savvy. I don’t care for the unique enabling, and extending incentives to Notre Dame based on fallacious hope.

I can see a time coming when the SEC offers all but football memberships which would be paid for all other sports fully, but not for football. Such a provision could eventually help Vanderbilt remain and permit Duke and Wake Forest to keep other important ties to UNC and UVa, and perhaps N.C. State. It could be useful for Rice or Tulane and become a great tool for enhancing academic associations. If N.D. wanted to fully place all sports but football here I see no harm, but we wouldn't bend over backwards to guarantee games in states which our member schools wanted to play like they do in the ACC. If they want football independence, they need to schedule like one.
(This post was last modified: 08-23-2022 12:47 PM by JRsec.)
08-23-2022 12:45 PM
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RE: Would the SEC really offer a partial membership to Notre Dame?
(08-23-2022 12:45 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-23-2022 12:21 PM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  If Notre Dame wants to join the SEC, it needs to be under the same terms and conditions as any other invitee. That includes a full-time commitment in all sports sponsored by the SEC of which ND has a team. I would expect the SEC majority members would not settle for anything less otherwise. A scheduling agreement may be plausible, but membership criteria is not a casual or “special treatment” matter.

I don’t blame Notre Dame for being smart and savvy. I don’t care for the unique enabling, and extending incentives to Notre Dame based on fallacious hope.

I can see a time coming when the SEC offers all but football memberships which would be paid for all other sports fully, but not for football. Such a provision could eventually help Vanderbilt remain and permit Duke and Wake Forest to keep other important ties to UNC and UVa, and perhaps N.C. State. It could be useful for Rice or Tulane and become a great tool for enhancing academic associations. If N.D. wanted to fully place all sports but football here I see no harm, but we wouldn't bend over backwards to guarantee games in states which our member schools wanted to play like they do in the ACC. If they want football independence, they need to schedule like one.

If you created a tier of schools essentially that allowed for several partial members then I think the whole thing is more palatable.

Vanderbilt, Duke, Wake Forest, Rice, and Tulane would form a class of schools essentially that provide some academic heavyweights, greater penetration in certain markets, and potentially some very good basketball/baseball quality.

If Notre Dame is in that tier then that's a governance structure that avoids the appearance of favoritism. Although I still think it's important to nail down a package of games for Notre Dame and even for the other schools albeit mostly as filler.

Adding Notre Dame also gives you 6 total partials. It helps the numbers game.

If that's the case then you theoretically still need 24 full members.

Florida State, Miami, Georgia Tech, Clemson, North Carolina, NC State, Virginia, Virginia Tech, and Kansas.

That's 24 full members and 6 partials.
08-23-2022 05:34 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: Would the SEC really offer a partial membership to Notre Dame?
(08-23-2022 05:34 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(08-23-2022 12:45 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-23-2022 12:21 PM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  If Notre Dame wants to join the SEC, it needs to be under the same terms and conditions as any other invitee. That includes a full-time commitment in all sports sponsored by the SEC of which ND has a team. I would expect the SEC majority members would not settle for anything less otherwise. A scheduling agreement may be plausible, but membership criteria is not a casual or “special treatment” matter.

I don’t blame Notre Dame for being smart and savvy. I don’t care for the unique enabling, and extending incentives to Notre Dame based on fallacious hope.

I can see a time coming when the SEC offers all but football memberships which would be paid for all other sports fully, but not for football. Such a provision could eventually help Vanderbilt remain and permit Duke and Wake Forest to keep other important ties to UNC and UVa, and perhaps N.C. State. It could be useful for Rice or Tulane and become a great tool for enhancing academic associations. If N.D. wanted to fully place all sports but football here I see no harm, but we wouldn't bend over backwards to guarantee games in states which our member schools wanted to play like they do in the ACC. If they want football independence, they need to schedule like one.

If you created a tier of schools essentially that allowed for several partial members then I think the whole thing is more palatable.

Vanderbilt, Duke, Wake Forest, Rice, and Tulane would form a class of schools essentially that provide some academic heavyweights, greater penetration in certain markets, and potentially some very good basketball/baseball quality.

If Notre Dame is in that tier then that's a governance structure that avoids the appearance of favoritism. Although I still think it's important to nail down a package of games for Notre Dame and even for the other schools albeit mostly as filler.

Adding Notre Dame also gives you 6 total partials. It helps the numbers game.

If that's the case then you theoretically still need 24 full members.

Florida State, Miami, Georgia Tech, Clemson, North Carolina, NC State, Virginia, Virginia Tech, and Kansas.

That's 24 full members and 6 partials.

Add Army, Navy, and Air Force to those 5 and you have a helluva B League in football and all sports.
08-23-2022 05:49 PM
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Guardian Offline
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RE: Would the SEC really offer a partial membership to Notre Dame?
Can we all (SEC and B1G) just let ND wither and die on its Independent vine? They are perennially overrated and if we stopped reserving space for their ego, they would fall back to earth and irrelevancy.
08-24-2022 08:23 AM
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RE: Would the SEC really offer a partial membership to Notre Dame?
(08-24-2022 08:23 AM)Guardian Wrote:  Can we all (SEC and B1G) just let ND wither and die on its Independent vine? They are perennially overrated and if we stopped reserving space for their ego, they would fall back to earth and irrelevancy.

You said that in a straightforward way. I wasn't as blunt but won't counter your point. The sports media, sponsors, Bowl executives, NBC, BIG, old BE, the ACC bigtime, USC & Stanford, and recently SEC schools, have all played enabling roles.

Let Notre Dame stay independent and stop with the carrots. Give the carrots to the Mustangs of SMU if need be, not for Irish stew that won't be shared.

I don't wish Notre Dame ill fortune. I respect their long history of high achievement. But these special seats at the table equal to or beyond what's granted to a power conference commissioner, and accommodating only Notre Dame with hybrid designs, need to cease in this era.
08-24-2022 10:41 AM
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OdinFrigg Offline
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RE: Would the SEC really offer a partial membership to Notre Dame?
(08-23-2022 05:49 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-23-2022 05:34 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(08-23-2022 12:45 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-23-2022 12:21 PM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  If Notre Dame wants to join the SEC, it needs to be under the same terms and conditions as any other invitee. That includes a full-time commitment in all sports sponsored by the SEC of which ND has a team. I would expect the SEC majority members would not settle for anything less otherwise. A scheduling agreement may be plausible, but membership criteria is not a casual or “special treatment” matter.

I don’t blame Notre Dame for being smart and savvy. I don’t care for the unique enabling, and extending incentives to Notre Dame based on fallacious hope.

I can see a time coming when the SEC offers all but football memberships which would be paid for all other sports fully, but not for football. Such a provision could eventually help Vanderbilt remain and permit Duke and Wake Forest to keep other important ties to UNC and UVa, and perhaps N.C. State. It could be useful for Rice or Tulane and become a great tool for enhancing academic associations. If N.D. wanted to fully place all sports but football here I see no harm, but we wouldn't bend over backwards to guarantee games in states which our member schools wanted to play like they do in the ACC. If they want football independence, they need to schedule like one.

If you created a tier of schools essentially that allowed for several partial members then I think the whole thing is more palatable.

Vanderbilt, Duke, Wake Forest, Rice, and Tulane would form a class of schools essentially that provide some academic heavyweights, greater penetration in certain markets, and potentially some very good basketball/baseball quality.

If Notre Dame is in that tier then that's a governance structure that avoids the appearance of favoritism. Although I still think it's important to nail down a package of games for Notre Dame and even for the other schools albeit mostly as filler.

Adding Notre Dame also gives you 6 total partials. It helps the numbers game.

If that's the case then you theoretically still need 24 full members.

Florida State, Miami, Georgia Tech, Clemson, North Carolina, NC State, Virginia, Virginia Tech, and Kansas.

That's 24 full members and 6 partials.

Add Army, Navy, and Air Force to those 5 and you have a helluva B League in football and all sports.

Good discussion presented, ATU, JR, etc.. Let me clarify one matter. Offering a football alternative for schools such as Vanderbilt, Duke, Rice, SMU, etc. is different than giving a football exemption, or partial fb, to Notre Dame. The Irish have the resources to compete in fb at the highest levels. Vanderbilt, not so much.

I'd be fine seeing a Magnolia-type fb division under a SEC umbrella. Some public universities such as Georgia Tech, Kansas, or Virginia may find such appealing if the conditions and criteria match their priorities.

By the way, Wake Forest is a pre-season top 25. They had a fine season last year. That may be the best football program in the State of North Carolina right now.
(This post was last modified: 08-24-2022 10:57 AM by OdinFrigg.)
08-24-2022 10:51 AM
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RE: Would the SEC really offer a partial membership to Notre Dame?
(08-24-2022 10:41 AM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  
(08-24-2022 08:23 AM)Guardian Wrote:  Can we all (SEC and B1G) just let ND wither and die on its Independent vine? They are perennially overrated and if we stopped reserving space for their ego, they would fall back to earth and irrelevancy.

You said that in a straightforward way. I wasn't as blunt but won't counter your point. The sports media, sponsors, Bowl executives, NBC, BIG, old BE, the ACC bigtime, USC & Stanford, and recently SEC schools, have all played enabling roles.

Let Notre Dame stay independent and stop with the carrots. Give the carrots to the Mustangs of SMU if need be, not for Irish stew that won't be shared.

I don't wish Notre Dame ill fortune. I respect their long history of high achievement. But these special seats at the table equal to or beyond what's granted to a power conference commissioner, and accommodating only Notre Dame with hybrid designs, need to cease in this era.

ND has done a masterful job (I give Swarbrick most of the credit for this) of playing the P5 against each other. As long as there is rivalry between conferences, whether it's 2 or 22 of them, there will be a spot for a team like ND. In the current iteration, the ACC has a huge incentive to maintain ND where they are b/c they help the conference, and the SEC has a strong incentive b/c an independent ND is not helping to boost the entire B1G. In the future that calculus could change, perhaps significantly, but at least for now ND is kind of like Switzerland in WW2: everyone wants them on their side, but will accept them as neutral as long as they don't join the other side.
08-27-2022 03:13 PM
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RE: Would the SEC really offer a partial membership to Notre Dame?
(08-24-2022 10:51 AM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  
(08-23-2022 05:49 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-23-2022 05:34 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(08-23-2022 12:45 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-23-2022 12:21 PM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  If Notre Dame wants to join the SEC, it needs to be under the same terms and conditions as any other invitee. That includes a full-time commitment in all sports sponsored by the SEC of which ND has a team. I would expect the SEC majority members would not settle for anything less otherwise. A scheduling agreement may be plausible, but membership criteria is not a casual or “special treatment” matter.

I don’t blame Notre Dame for being smart and savvy. I don’t care for the unique enabling, and extending incentives to Notre Dame based on fallacious hope.

I can see a time coming when the SEC offers all but football memberships which would be paid for all other sports fully, but not for football. Such a provision could eventually help Vanderbilt remain and permit Duke and Wake Forest to keep other important ties to UNC and UVa, and perhaps N.C. State. It could be useful for Rice or Tulane and become a great tool for enhancing academic associations. If N.D. wanted to fully place all sports but football here I see no harm, but we wouldn't bend over backwards to guarantee games in states which our member schools wanted to play like they do in the ACC. If they want football independence, they need to schedule like one.

If you created a tier of schools essentially that allowed for several partial members then I think the whole thing is more palatable.

Vanderbilt, Duke, Wake Forest, Rice, and Tulane would form a class of schools essentially that provide some academic heavyweights, greater penetration in certain markets, and potentially some very good basketball/baseball quality.

If Notre Dame is in that tier then that's a governance structure that avoids the appearance of favoritism. Although I still think it's important to nail down a package of games for Notre Dame and even for the other schools albeit mostly as filler.

Adding Notre Dame also gives you 6 total partials. It helps the numbers game.

If that's the case then you theoretically still need 24 full members.

Florida State, Miami, Georgia Tech, Clemson, North Carolina, NC State, Virginia, Virginia Tech, and Kansas.

That's 24 full members and 6 partials.

Add Army, Navy, and Air Force to those 5 and you have a helluva B League in football and all sports.

Good discussion presented, ATU, JR, etc.. Let me clarify one matter. Offering a football alternative for schools such as Vanderbilt, Duke, Rice, SMU, etc. is different than giving a football exemption, or partial fb, to Notre Dame. The Irish have the resources to compete in fb at the highest levels. Vanderbilt, not so much.

I'd be fine seeing a Magnolia-type fb division under a SEC umbrella. Some public universities such as Georgia Tech, Kansas, or Virginia may find such appealing if the conditions and criteria match their priorities.

By the way, Wake Forest is a pre-season top 25. They had a fine season last year. That may be the best football program in the State of North Carolina right now.

Vanderbilt has more resources than any non-Texas SEC school, they just choose not to prioritize football. That could change at any time. They are a lot more like ND than the others, at least potentially.

Now, if Vandy approached the SEC about partial members and had a plan for a group of partials and the creation of the SEC version of the BTAA, that might be something that a lot of schools would get very excited about. Duke, Rice, UVA, ND, and Tulane added, as a group, would be amazing from an Academic perspective.
08-27-2022 03:22 PM
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Crayton Offline
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RE: Would the SEC really offer a partial membership to Notre Dame?
(08-19-2022 07:20 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  What are some negatives?

1. Perceived weakness.

2. The possibility of making other SEC full members envious of the special deal. There is great potential here for a sloppy wet slippery slope.

3. An inability to fully govern an important member. Not that Notre Dame is known for rebellious antics, but if everyone is not on the same team so to speak then there is potential for dissension on important issues that could not necessarily be handled in-house.

With conferences now able to pit any teams in their CCGs, I think scheduling can become a LOT more flexible. You could give ALL 17 teams a hybrid conference/independent schedule, so no team is "envious" of Notre Dame's deal.

Notre Dame can opt out of sharing media rights to football games and voluntary exclude themselves from the CCG race, but I think that need be the only difference between them and Alabama or South Carolina.
08-28-2022 02:24 PM
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RE: Would the SEC really offer a partial membership to Notre Dame?
(08-28-2022 02:24 PM)Crayton Wrote:  
(08-19-2022 07:20 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  What are some negatives?

1. Perceived weakness.

2. The possibility of making other SEC full members envious of the special deal. There is great potential here for a sloppy wet slippery slope.

3. An inability to fully govern an important member. Not that Notre Dame is known for rebellious antics, but if everyone is not on the same team so to speak then there is potential for dissension on important issues that could not necessarily be handled in-house.

With conferences now able to pit any teams in their CCGs, I think scheduling can become a LOT more flexible. You could give ALL 17 teams a hybrid conference/independent schedule, so no team is "envious" of Notre Dame's deal.

Notre Dame can opt out of sharing media rights to football games and voluntary exclude themselves from the CCG race, but I think that need be the only difference between them and Alabama or South Carolina.

In the old days, there wasn't a uniform scheduling policy. The schools basically scheduled themselves like they would for non-conference schedules.

I think as long as you played 6 conference games, it didn't matter who. That's why the SEC has this weird history where a lot of long time schools haven't played other long time schools nearly as much as others.

I don't know that anything like that would be healthy if employed again, but maybe there are some creative ways to go about it. If the SEC took these "Magnolia" schools as I've proposed then maybe there's a way to incorporate that as well.
08-28-2022 07:37 PM
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RE: Would the SEC really offer a partial membership to Notre Dame?
ND is going to stay independent for as long as it can. To emphasize the point, ND's great, overwhelming preference is to remain a football independent forever.

Failing that, I believe that ND knows where it is going.....full time to the Big Ten. That may be a Big Ten that includes 3 ACC schools for Southern recruiting purposes.

The ACC GOR completely precluded that possibility this year. Instead, Swarbrick used the Big Ten to get a big NBC raise of around $38 million a year.

It looks like ND will sign another NBC deal for 5-7 years and then will leave the ACC for the Big Ten. ( I hate the Big Ten, but then I am a fan of no conference at all, none. I will never have a speck of loyalty or allegiance to any conference).

I don't think that full or even partial SEC membership is on Jack Swarbrick's radar screen, so you guys can relax.
(This post was last modified: 08-29-2022 08:38 AM by TerryD.)
08-29-2022 08:36 AM
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Crayton Offline
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RE: Would the SEC really offer a partial membership to Notre Dame?
(08-28-2022 07:37 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(08-28-2022 02:24 PM)Crayton Wrote:  
(08-19-2022 07:20 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  What are some negatives?

1. Perceived weakness.

2. The possibility of making other SEC full members envious of the special deal. There is great potential here for a sloppy wet slippery slope.

3. An inability to fully govern an important member. Not that Notre Dame is known for rebellious antics, but if everyone is not on the same team so to speak then there is potential for dissension on important issues that could not necessarily be handled in-house.

With conferences now able to pit any teams in their CCGs, I think scheduling can become a LOT more flexible. You could give ALL 17 teams a hybrid conference/independent schedule, so no team is "envious" of Notre Dame's deal.

Notre Dame can opt out of sharing media rights to football games and voluntary exclude themselves from the CCG race, but I think that need be the only difference between them and Alabama or South Carolina.

In the old days, there wasn't a uniform scheduling policy. The schools basically scheduled themselves like they would for non-conference schedules.

I think as long as you played 6 conference games, it didn't matter who. That's why the SEC has this weird history where a lot of long time schools haven't played other long time schools nearly as much as others.

I don't know that anything like that would be healthy if employed again, but maybe there are some creative ways to go about it. If the SEC took these "Magnolia" schools as I've proposed then maybe there's a way to incorporate that as well.

There are a few reasons for top-down scheduling.

1: consistent media value. The SEC will sell 10 Gator games just about every year, guaranteed.

2: access to the big brands. If Vandy never plays Bama, they will suffer at the gate. A conference schedule makes that happen (okay, well, not these past 12 years).

3: same number of games. It is prickly to choose between a 6-1 team and a 7-1 team, whether as champion or as CCG participant.

Modifications for hybrid independent/conference schedule:

1. Mandate 10+ power opponents, 5+ at home. A pair of UF-MSU games may be dropped, but over 2 years a UF-Miami and MSU-Houston game will be added to what the SEC can sell.

2. The conference can still control 4 games (2 home, 2 away) on each team's schedule. After ADs schedule 8 (at least 6 of which are vs SEC/nonSEC Power Opponents), the Conference will fill the gaps (and maybe level schedule strength) to ensure teams see each other more often than twice every decade. This can probably be accomplished by withholding less than 4 games too.

3. If teams are playing 10+ power opponents, just make the conference race based on all 12 games. Have an objective, quasi-SOS tie-breaker (power wins by power opponents) to reward strong scheduling and you should satisfy all parties.
(This post was last modified: 08-29-2022 12:12 PM by Crayton.)
08-29-2022 11:16 AM
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