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US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
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BartlettTigerFan Online
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Post: #81
RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
We haven't come close to crippling Russia. Same advice as to the other guy. Stop watching CNN.
11-29-2022 11:00 AM
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maximus Offline
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Post: #82
RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
(11-29-2022 10:55 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  I don't post often but I read that our investment in Ukraine has cost the United States about 0.003% of its annual GDP, and Russia has lost approximately 50% of its military capability. Even better is that some of the aid sent over was paid for many years ago and specifically budgeted for use against Soviet and Russian capabilities.

This is an incredible ROI.

I'm happy designating more resources to Ukraine. We essentially crippled a rival world "power" for decades at minimal cost to the US.
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11-29-2022 11:07 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #83
RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
(11-29-2022 11:00 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  We haven't come close to crippling Russia. Same advice as to the other guy. Stop watching CNN.

Yeah, the info and facts on some backwater political forum are so much amazingly better than anything else out there.
11-29-2022 11:23 AM
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BartlettTigerFan Online
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Post: #84
RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
(11-29-2022 11:23 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(11-29-2022 11:00 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  We haven't come close to crippling Russia. Same advice as to the other guy. Stop watching CNN.

Yeah, the info and facts on some backwater political forum are so much amazingly better than anything else out there.

Most things out there are blatant lies.
11-29-2022 11:54 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #85
RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
(11-29-2022 11:54 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  
(11-29-2022 11:23 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(11-29-2022 11:00 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  We haven't come close to crippling Russia. Same advice as to the other guy. Stop watching CNN.

Yeah, the info and facts on some backwater political forum are so much amazingly better than anything else out there.

Most things out there are blatant lies.

And you are the purveyor of the ultimate truth, I take it.
11-29-2022 12:24 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #86
RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
(11-29-2022 11:00 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  We haven't come close to crippling Russia. Same advice as to the other guy. Stop watching CNN.

Crippling? I would not go that far. However, he's not totally wrong. We spend roughly 800 billion a year on defense---mostly aimed at 2 key threats---Russia and China. Russia usually spends about 45 billion a year and China spends about $229 billion. So we spend at more than a 2 to 1 margin to guard against potential threats to American safety. That more than two to one spending ratio goes on year after year after year. So, using stockpiled weapons to eliminate existing potential threats to US forces on a dollar for dollar basis would be a huge win (especially since we annually spend at a two to one rate to defend against them).

But its better than that---we are sending a $240K Javlelin to knock out a 3 million dollar tank---a 12 to one return ratio when expressed in dollar terms. Even better---electronic rich weapon systems have a shelf life. They have to be replaced after a certain amount of time sitting in a warehouse because the electronics inside cease to be reliable enough for use in our military. Most of what we are sending to Ukraine is at or near the end of its shelf life. In other words, everything we are sending Ukraine was going to have to be replaced anyway. That 54 billion figure reflects the replacement cost of those weapons systems---but what it doesnt tell you is we were going to have to replace those weapons in a year or two even if we didnt send them to Ukraine. In other words---most of the ammo we are sending represent nearly fully depreciated assets with little economic life remaining. So, using this low remaining life asset to eliminate potential front line peer adversary threats is a pretty darn effective use of assets.

Here is something likely on the horizon, mainly because it makes sense from a US inventory standpoint. The US has a crap load of M-26 unguided rockets in its inventory. By modifying the rocket to mate it to a GLSBD (basically what turns a regular bomb into a guided gliding smart bomb), the US can cheaply supply Ukraine with a long range gliding smart weapon that can hit targets very accurately about 95 miles away. This missile/glide bomb combo can be launched from aircraft or from the ground using HIMARS systems. A lot of the M-26 rockets in the US inventory were slated to be destroyed (some already have been)---so this is once again using an asset that had little remaining economic value to eliminate front line peer adversary equipment that could potentially threaten US assets in the future. By using that "glide bomb" technology, the current Ukrainian HIMARS range (defined by the missiles we have been sending them) would roughly double.
(This post was last modified: 11-29-2022 03:48 PM by Attackcoog.)
11-29-2022 01:31 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #87
RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
(11-29-2022 01:31 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Crippling? I would not go that far. However, he's not totally wrong. We spend roughly 800 billion a year on defense---mostly aimed at 2 key threats---Russia and China. Russia usually spends about 45 billion a year and China spends about $229 billion. So we spend at more than a 2 to 1 margin to guard against potential threats to American safety.

Not exactly. We are guarding against a lot more than just Russia and China. And our labor costs are several times theirs, so the dollar equivalency is not exactly relevant.

The real difference, though, is attributable to what happened at the end of WWII. We basically bribed up an alliance to stop Soviet expansion, first into western Europe, and later worldwide. There is a long list of countries to which we made a basic promise--we will give you open access to our markets so you can rebuild your economies, and our military will defend you against communism (and our Navy will defend your sea lines of communication, SLOCs) so you don't have to spend a ton rebuilding your military forces, and in return all you have to do is take our side versus the communist menace. So we are basically not only defending the USA, but also western Europe and a fair part of Asia and South America.

That approach worked pretty well. Communism did not spread, except only marginally, and the west experienced unprecedented economic growth and prosperity. The problem is, it worked too well. When the Berlin Wall fell, we didn't have a plan for what to do next. 30+ years later, we still don't.

Ross Perot said something in 1992 that I had been thinking for some time by then. In the post-Cold-War world, economic power will be more important than military power. We have spent the last 20 years bogged down trying to impose our will militarily on the MidEast, which barely--if at all--wants to embrace western ways. Meanwhile China has leveraged its economic influence to outflank us in Asia and Africa, now spreading to Europe and South America.

We need a new paradigm. World globalism is not it.
11-29-2022 04:46 PM
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Eagleaidaholic Offline
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Post: #88
RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
And exactly how do we know how much Russia and China spend on their militaries? Please no one answer with, "The CIA".
11-29-2022 04:51 PM
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HCJag Offline
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Post: #89
RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
Anyone with 6000 nukes is not crippled, and somebody's going to be stupid enough to use one someday. I still believe this war didn't even need to happen but it's no use arguing about it now.
11-29-2022 05:43 PM
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Todor Offline
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Post: #90
RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan
I hate to tell people but Russia is one of the largest weapons and military gear exporters in the world. The idea that they will simply run out of weapons and have no ability to make more is total farce. It’s not based in reality.

The only useful reason for promoting this idea is to get people to go along with the US sending more money to Ukraine. “Russia is almost out of (fill in the blank military item) so now is no time to stop supplying Ukraine…

Russia isn’t running out. If they were, they would be out already. Within weeks of the start of SMO the headlines were reporting Russia was out of things. That wasn’t true. It wasn’t true in April, May, June, or November.

They tell people that to keep the war support high and to keep the US money flowing to wherever it’s ending up.
(This post was last modified: 11-29-2022 11:19 PM by Todor.)
11-29-2022 08:55 PM
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stinkfist Offline
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Post: #91
RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
(11-29-2022 08:55 PM)Todor Wrote:  I hate to tell people but Russia is one of the largest weapons and military gear exporters in the world. The idea that they will simply run out of weapons and have no ability to make more is total farce. It’s not based in reality.

The only useful reason for promoting this idea is to get people to go along with the US sending more money to Ukraine. “Russia is almost out of (fill in the blank military item) so now is no time to stop supplying Ukraine…

Russia isn’t running out. If they were, they be out already. Within weeks of the start of SMO the headlines were reporting Russia was out of things. That wasn’t true. It wasn’t true in April, May, June, or November.

They tell people that to keep the war support high and to keep the US money flowing to wherever it’s ending up.

Russia is crippled (can I laugh harder) … g’damn my gen and their fathers are brainwashed puppies … yeah, the pacifist doesn’t have a fk’n clue…

shite like this is why I finga-banged the profs and the coeds … #tooFknEZ

/sarc
11-29-2022 09:31 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #92
RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
(11-29-2022 08:55 PM)Todor Wrote:  I hate to tell people but Russia is one of the largest weapons and military gear exporters in the world. The idea that they will simply run out of weapons and have no ability to make more is total farce. It’s not based in reality.

The only useful reason for promoting this idea is to get people to go along with the US sending more money to Ukraine. “Russia is almost out of (fill in the blank military item) so now is no time to stop supplying Ukraine…

Russia isn’t running out. If they were, they be out already. Within weeks of the start of SMO the headlines were reporting Russia was out of things. That wasn’t true. It wasn’t true in April, May, June, or November.

They tell people that to keep the war support high and to keep the US money flowing to wherever it’s ending up.

They are clearly running out of smart weapons. Doesnt mean they are out.
Doesnt mean they will be out of them this week---but we would be freaking out if our inventory stocks were down to the level that the Russians are. That said---running out of smart weapons is totally different from running out of weapons.
(This post was last modified: 11-29-2022 11:04 PM by Attackcoog.)
11-29-2022 10:02 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #93
RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
(11-29-2022 04:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(11-29-2022 01:31 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Crippling? I would not go that far. However, he's not totally wrong. We spend roughly 800 billion a year on defense---mostly aimed at 2 key threats---Russia and China. Russia usually spends about 45 billion a year and China spends about $229 billion. So we spend at more than a 2 to 1 margin to guard against potential threats to American safety.

Not exactly. We are guarding against a lot more than just Russia and China. And our labor costs are several times theirs, so the dollar equivalency is not exactly relevant.

The real difference, though, is attributable to what happened at the end of WWII. We basically bribed up an alliance to stop Soviet expansion, first into western Europe, and later worldwide. There is a long list of countries to which we made a basic promise--we will give you open access to our markets so you can rebuild your economies, and our military will defend you against communism (and our Navy will defend your sea lines of communication, SLOCs) so you don't have to spend a ton rebuilding your military forces, and in return all you have to do is take our side versus the communist menace. So we are basically not only defending the USA, but also western Europe and a fair part of Asia and South America.

That approach worked pretty well. Communism did not spread, except only marginally, and the west experienced unprecedented economic growth and prosperity. The problem is, it worked too well. When the Berlin Wall fell, we didn't have a plan for what to do next. 30+ years later, we still don't.

Ross Perot said something in 1992 that I had been thinking for some time by then. In the post-Cold-War world, economic power will be more important than military power. We have spent the last 20 years bogged down trying to impose our will militarily on the MidEast, which barely--if at all--wants to embrace western ways. Meanwhile China has leveraged its economic influence to outflank us in Asia and Africa, now spreading to Europe and South America.

We need a new paradigm. World globalism is not it.

Agree. I suspect we saw its much better to make sure war never makes it onto our front lawn. I know a lot of people dont like our association with NATO---and even I am open to moving on to something else---but NATO and our other alliances have done a good job of keeping wars off our front lawn. One terrorist strike on our home soil is the total impact to our actual shores since WWII.


In a way, our geography forces us to be a two ocean naval power even if we want to be isolationist. We have coasts on the east and west---and south. We have one of our 50 states in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. So, to a degree---leveraging the navy we were going to have to pay for anyway in a manner that made us more secure made sense. Im still ok with leveraging the navy because we are still going to need a powerful two ocean navy---but I'd have no problem with thinning our alliances to those who are truly "allies".
11-29-2022 10:11 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #94
RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
(11-29-2022 10:02 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(11-29-2022 08:55 PM)Todor Wrote:  I hate to tell people but Russia is one of the largest weapons and military gear exporters in the world. The idea that they will simply run out of weapons and have no ability to make more is total farce. It’s not based in reality.

The only useful reason for promoting this idea is to get people to go along with the US sending more money to Ukraine. “Russia is almost out of (fill in the blank military item) so now is no time to stop supplying Ukraine…

Russia isn’t running out. If they were, they be out already. Within weeks of the start of SMO the headlines were reporting Russia was out of things. That wasn’t true. It wasn’t true in April, May, June, or November.

They tell people that to keep the war support high and to keep the US money flowing to wherever it’s ending up.

They are clearly running out of smart weapons. Doesnt mean they are out.
Doesnt mean they will be out of them this week---but e would be freaking out if our inventory stocks were down to the level that the Russians are. That said---running out of smart weapons is totally different from running out of weapons.

And, away from the 'materiel' issue -- there are numerous reports of very deep and widespread opposition and antagonism generated by the (forced) mobilization.

When those poorly trained men start showing back up in body bags en masse, there will be a steep price to add on to the increasing opposition.

The last successful coup in the Russian homeland was sparked by massive deaths in a war, and general mutiny in the Russian armed services.

The last big crack in the Soviet facade was fueled directly by the public opposition to the price in Afghanistan. There are more than a few that say the collapse of the Soviet system, while fairly unavoidable, was rapidly accelerated by the public being fed up with military deaths in Afghanistan.

Yes, it is correct that 6000 nukes does not make them 'crippled'.

But the very high cost of the war in men and materiel is significantly downgrading the remnants of that conventional armed forces. And no -- it wont 'cripple' them, but the cost in men and materiel, coupled with an economic vise, and further coupled with a non-insignificant exodus of 'prime economic' people *out* of Russia practically guarantee that the Russian nation/state will not be able to throw a war of aggression for a very long time after this one is over.

And many economic/demographic models see a collapse of the Russia nation/state as a direct result of all those costs. And even if that happens at what they would take as a 20% full effect of the above, that still takes Russia off the table in a global bad guy sense -- something that the West has prayed for since 1917.

And I have zero problem with pursuing that outcome given the zero cost in Western armed force's boots and the almost zero effective cost of reduction of stocks of weapons and weapons systems that are approaching shelf-life 'death'.
11-29-2022 10:49 PM
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Todor Offline
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Post: #95
RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
(11-29-2022 09:31 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  
(11-29-2022 08:55 PM)Todor Wrote:  I hate to tell people but Russia is one of the largest weapons and military gear exporters in the world. The idea that they will simply run out of weapons and have no ability to make more is total farce. It’s not based in reality.

The only useful reason for promoting this idea is to get people to go along with the US sending more money to Ukraine. “Russia is almost out of (fill in the blank military item) so now is no time to stop supplying Ukraine…

Russia isn’t running out. If they were, they be out already. Within weeks of the start of SMO the headlines were reporting Russia was out of things. That wasn’t true. It wasn’t true in April, May, June, or November.

They tell people that to keep the war support high and to keep the US money flowing to wherever it’s ending up.

Russia is crippled (can I laugh harder) … g’damn my gen and their fathers are brainwashed puppies … yeah, the pacifist doesn’t have a fk’n clue…

shite like this is why I finga-banged the profs and the coeds … #tooFknEZ

/sarc

The good news is, I saw Zelenskys wife on the Beeb stating that Ukrainians don’t mind no electricity or heat and that are happy to deal with it for years if they have to.

I hope those attacks on Russian civilian infrastructure was worth it. It was a short lived high five moment for sure. Side note, Americans first attack the electric and communications grid in every country they invade. Its sound strategy. In fact, when Crimea joined Russia, the first things Ukraine did was cut the power and water.

Ukraine is close to collapse. It’s all a matter of how much money we are willing to borrow, spend, launder, and lose.

On the other hand, the US is cleaning up selling Europe power that costs 4 times what Russian gas costs and destroying the economy. Partners are asking if the US is really an ally now.
11-29-2022 10:55 PM
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RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
(11-29-2022 10:55 PM)Todor Wrote:  
(11-29-2022 09:31 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  
(11-29-2022 08:55 PM)Todor Wrote:  I hate to tell people but Russia is one of the largest weapons and military gear exporters in the world. The idea that they will simply run out of weapons and have no ability to make more is total farce. It’s not based in reality.

The only useful reason for promoting this idea is to get people to go along with the US sending more money to Ukraine. “Russia is almost out of (fill in the blank military item) so now is no time to stop supplying Ukraine…

Russia isn’t running out. If they were, they be out already. Within weeks of the start of SMO the headlines were reporting Russia was out of things. That wasn’t true. It wasn’t true in April, May, June, or November.

They tell people that to keep the war support high and to keep the US money flowing to wherever it’s ending up.

Russia is crippled (can I laugh harder) … g’damn my gen and their fathers are brainwashed puppies … yeah, the pacifist doesn’t have a fk’n clue…

shite like this is why I finga-banged the profs and the coeds … #tooFknEZ

/sarc

The good news is, I saw Zelenskys wife on the Beeb stating that Ukrainians don’t mind no electricity or heat and that are happy to deal with it for years if they have to.

I hope those attacks on Russian civilian infrastructure was worth it. It was a short lived high five moment for sure. Side note, Americans first attack the electric and communications grid in every country they invade. Its sound strategy. In fact, when Crimea joined Russia, the first things Ukraine did was cut the power and water.

Ukraine is close to collapse. It’s all a matter of how much money we are willing to borrow, spend, launder, and lose.

On the other hand, the US is cleaning up selling Europe power that costs 4 times what Russian gas costs and destroying the economy. Partners are asking if the US is really an ally now.

who'd a thunk it, Ja?!

where is mon Shere when ya need him ... 03-wink
11-29-2022 11:09 PM
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Todor Offline
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Post: #97
RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
(11-29-2022 11:09 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  
(11-29-2022 10:55 PM)Todor Wrote:  
(11-29-2022 09:31 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  
(11-29-2022 08:55 PM)Todor Wrote:  I hate to tell people but Russia is one of the largest weapons and military gear exporters in the world. The idea that they will simply run out of weapons and have no ability to make more is total farce. It’s not based in reality.

The only useful reason for promoting this idea is to get people to go along with the US sending more money to Ukraine. “Russia is almost out of (fill in the blank military item) so now is no time to stop supplying Ukraine…

Russia isn’t running out. If they were, they be out already. Within weeks of the start of SMO the headlines were reporting Russia was out of things. That wasn’t true. It wasn’t true in April, May, June, or November.

They tell people that to keep the war support high and to keep the US money flowing to wherever it’s ending up.

Russia is crippled (can I laugh harder) … g’damn my gen and their fathers are brainwashed puppies … yeah, the pacifist doesn’t have a fk’n clue…

shite like this is why I finga-banged the profs and the coeds … #tooFknEZ

/sarc

The good news is, I saw Zelenskys wife on the Beeb stating that Ukrainians don’t mind no electricity or heat and that are happy to deal with it for years if they have to.

I hope those attacks on Russian civilian infrastructure was worth it. It was a short lived high five moment for sure. Side note, Americans first attack the electric and communications grid in every country they invade. Its sound strategy. In fact, when Crimea joined Russia, the first things Ukraine did was cut the power and water.

Ukraine is close to collapse. It’s all a matter of how much money we are willing to borrow, spend, launder, and lose.

On the other hand, the US is cleaning up selling Europe power that costs 4 times what Russian gas costs and destroying the economy. Partners are asking if the US is really an ally now.

who'd a thunk it, Ja?!

where is mon Shere when ya need him ... 03-wink

And now the US is pushing Europe to follow it and drag it into increased conflict with China. And I suspect a new escalation with Taiwan and/or North Korea will happen juuuust about the time this fiasco begins to die down. Do you think?

Just like this one happened right on the heels of Syria. Which continued the Iraq War, which started relating to Afghanistan, which we originally created to “get Russia.”

But this is really just about Ukraine…..
11-29-2022 11:16 PM
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Gamenole Offline
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Post: #98
RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of 5 Years Afghan War
At least Ukraine is making good use of the money, of course it costs more to fight a proxy war vs. Russia than it did to chase goats and terrorists in Afghanistan. But the opportunity to defang the Russian military without having to do it on NATO territory is priceless -

"Explosions rock two Russian airbases far from Ukraine frontline" -

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/d...ne-bombers
12-05-2022 09:36 AM
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RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War
Yeah, Zelenskyy just bought another mansion.
12-05-2022 09:43 AM
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RE: US Money Committed to Ukraine Has Already Exceeded Cost of First 5 Years Afghan War


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