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RCI Offline
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Post: #61
RE: More conference moves
2022 will be ACU's 103rd year of playing football since we added it in 1919. Time has evolved so that we were a small college power, going undefeated and winning a bowl game in 1950. But there was a time when track and field was our dominate sport. Our Track team was picked as the top Texas athletic team of the last century, a true national power and earned several Olympic medals. Now basketball has risen and beating Texas in the NCAA and three straight 20 win seasons has really boosted interest in basketball. But the school is still a football first school (and I was a basketball player...) We want the WAC to thrive in all sports but I suspect that if football is not a major emphasis of the WAC, ACU will not stay as committed as we are today. ACU is proud and happy to be in the WAC, but we need football to be competitive and important for the conference. If that is a message from the commissioner's office then we will be fine.
(This post was last modified: 07-17-2022 12:55 PM by RCI.)
07-16-2022 09:28 PM
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FirstandGoal Offline
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Post: #62
RE: More conference moves
(07-16-2022 09:16 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  
(07-16-2022 06:41 PM)FirstandGoal Wrote:  Saw a report today that at least some of the University of California System regents aren't too happy with how the UCLA potential move was handled. Seems UCLA didn't even notify the regents before the press got the move out on the wire.

If Cal was included, there would be no issue. Only when you’re left out, are there “hurt feelings”; especially if money is involved.

Cal is under a different group of regents the way I understood the report. Cal is part of the Cal State system and UCLA is part of the University of California system. Nothing was said in the report about USC and I agree it is all about money.
07-17-2022 06:54 AM
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Bobcat2013 Offline
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Post: #63
RE: More conference moves
(07-17-2022 06:54 AM)FirstandGoal Wrote:  
(07-16-2022 09:16 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  
(07-16-2022 06:41 PM)FirstandGoal Wrote:  Saw a report today that at least some of the University of California System regents aren't too happy with how the UCLA potential move was handled. Seems UCLA didn't even notify the regents before the press got the move out on the wire.

If Cal was included, there would be no issue. Only when you’re left out, are there “hurt feelings”; especially if money is involved.

Cal is under a different group of regents the way I understood the report. Cal is part of the Cal State system and UCLA is part of the University of California system. Nothing was said in the report about USC and I agree it is all about money.

California is definitely part of the UC system not Cal State. They're the University of California Berkley.
07-17-2022 07:23 AM
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Post: #64
RE: More conference moves
(07-17-2022 06:54 AM)FirstandGoal Wrote:  
(07-16-2022 09:16 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  
(07-16-2022 06:41 PM)FirstandGoal Wrote:  Saw a report today that at least some of the University of California System regents aren't too happy with how the UCLA potential move was handled. Seems UCLA didn't even notify the regents before the press got the move out on the wire.

If Cal was included, there would be no issue. Only when you’re left out, are there “hurt feelings”; especially if money is involved.

Cal is under a different group of regents the way I understood the report. Cal is part of the Cal State system and UCLA is part of the University of California system. Nothing was said in the report about USC and I agree it is all about money.

USC is a private school and not a part of the uCal system. Same with Stanford.
07-17-2022 07:49 AM
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Post: #65
RE: More conference moves
(07-16-2022 12:26 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  When Thornton was hired I thought:

1. The WAC isn't serious about Football.
2. FBS is not in the WAC's future.

Thornton reminds me of Weir, full of ideas and harkens back to college basketball of the past. I'm not saying that's a good or a bad, but shows his inexperience.

In many ways I love being in the WAC- the basketball tournament in Vegas. The baseball tournament at a major league Spring training site. BUT if the WAC isn’t serious about football, I can see ACU and SFA looking for another FCS Conference, possibly the ASUN. Tarleton is gone as soon as they get a FBS invite so I didn’t mention them.
07-17-2022 08:04 AM
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Post: #66
RE: More conference moves
(07-17-2022 08:04 AM)OscarWildeCat Wrote:  
(07-16-2022 12:26 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  When Thornton was hired I thought:

1. The WAC isn't serious about Football.
2. FBS is not in the WAC's future.

Thornton reminds me of Weir, full of ideas and harkens back to college basketball of the past. I'm not saying that's a good or a bad, but shows his inexperience.

In many ways I love being in the WAC- the basketball tournament in Vegas. The baseball tournament at a major league Spring training site. BUT if the WAC isn’t serious about football, I can see ACU and SFA looking for another FCS Conference, possibly the ASUN. Tarleton is gone as soon as they get a FBS invite so I didn’t mention them.

Here’s hoping…
07-17-2022 12:09 PM
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DoubleRSU Offline
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Post: #67
RE: More conference moves
(07-17-2022 12:09 PM)Todor Wrote:  
(07-17-2022 08:04 AM)OscarWildeCat Wrote:  
(07-16-2022 12:26 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  When Thornton was hired I thought:

1. The WAC isn't serious about Football.
2. FBS is not in the WAC's future.

Thornton reminds me of Weir, full of ideas and harkens back to college basketball of the past. I'm not saying that's a good or a bad, but shows his inexperience.

In many ways I love being in the WAC- the basketball tournament in Vegas. The baseball tournament at a major league Spring training site. BUT if the WAC isn’t serious about football, I can see ACU and SFA looking for another FCS Conference, possibly the ASUN. Tarleton is gone as soon as they get a FBS invite so I didn’t mention them.

Here’s hoping…

What difference does it make? NMSU is leaving the conference and isn’t even a WAC football member now.
07-17-2022 12:13 PM
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Post: #68
RE: More conference moves
(07-15-2022 11:59 AM)Itinerant Texan Wrote:  
(07-15-2022 10:00 AM)Lopes87 Wrote:  
(07-15-2022 09:36 AM)Spolovilo4EVER Wrote:  I doubt even Yale could save WAC Football. The new commish has run football in the ground for good I imagine. No western (BSC) team wants to join, let alone anyone from the ASUN. A few RMAC/LSC move ups might salvage an eternal FCS version but I doubt any of them would want to join a basketball centric dumpster fire. If I were UTRGV, I would be begging the Southland for an invite, they may actually let them in this time. Tarleton, ACU, and SFA only hope is FBS and that dream of a WAC FBS is dead and buried unless the Montana's and Dakota's decide to join, which will never happen as long as the majority of members do not have football teams. I wish the non football schools would all just leave and form another conference so we could grandfather the WAC into FBS with real schools.

Um what "real" football schools would want to join a league with Torkelton St SUU UTech ACU SFA? WAC football schools NEED the basketball schools. It would also be tough to force GCU UVU SU CBU out of the WAC.

Lol dude from GCU said "real school"

(07-17-2022 12:09 PM)Todor Wrote:  
(07-17-2022 08:04 AM)OscarWildeCat Wrote:  
(07-16-2022 12:26 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  When Thornton was hired I thought:

1. The WAC isn't serious about Football.
2. FBS is not in the WAC's future.

Thornton reminds me of Weir, full of ideas and harkens back to college basketball of the past. I'm not saying that's a good or a bad, but shows his inexperience.

In many ways I love being in the WAC- the basketball tournament in Vegas. The baseball tournament at a major league Spring training site. BUT if the WAC isn’t serious about football, I can see ACU and SFA looking for another FCS Conference, possibly the ASUN. Tarleton is gone as soon as they get a FBS invite so I didn’t mention them.

Here’s hoping…

How come?
07-17-2022 12:30 PM
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Post: #69
RE: More conference moves
(07-17-2022 12:30 PM)WestTexas409 Wrote:  
(07-15-2022 11:59 AM)Itinerant Texan Wrote:  
(07-15-2022 10:00 AM)Lopes87 Wrote:  
(07-15-2022 09:36 AM)Spolovilo4EVER Wrote:  I doubt even Yale could save WAC Football. The new commish has run football in the ground for good I imagine. No western (BSC) team wants to join, let alone anyone from the ASUN. A few RMAC/LSC move ups might salvage an eternal FCS version but I doubt any of them would want to join a basketball centric dumpster fire. If I were UTRGV, I would be begging the Southland for an invite, they may actually let them in this time. Tarleton, ACU, and SFA only hope is FBS and that dream of a WAC FBS is dead and buried unless the Montana's and Dakota's decide to join, which will never happen as long as the majority of members do not have football teams. I wish the non football schools would all just leave and form another conference so we could grandfather the WAC into FBS with real schools.

Um what "real" football schools would want to join a league with Torkelton St SUU UTech ACU SFA? WAC football schools NEED the basketball schools. It would also be tough to force GCU UVU SU CBU out of the WAC.

Lol dude from GCU said "real school"

(07-17-2022 12:09 PM)Todor Wrote:  
(07-17-2022 08:04 AM)OscarWildeCat Wrote:  
(07-16-2022 12:26 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  When Thornton was hired I thought:

1. The WAC isn't serious about Football.
2. FBS is not in the WAC's future.

Thornton reminds me of Weir, full of ideas and harkens back to college basketball of the past. I'm not saying that's a good or a bad, but shows his inexperience.

In many ways I love being in the WAC- the basketball tournament in Vegas. The baseball tournament at a major league Spring training site. BUT if the WAC isn’t serious about football, I can see ACU and SFA looking for another FCS Conference, possibly the ASUN. Tarleton is gone as soon as they get a FBS invite so I didn’t mention them.

Here’s hoping…

How come?

Todor has never had any specific reason for his hate of Texas schools. What's interesting is that this wonderful WAC commissioner, who is so pro basketball, is losing two of his top basketball programs as well as football programs. He can't keep mediocre programs or good ones.
07-17-2022 01:06 PM
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Post: #70
RE: More conference moves
(07-17-2022 01:06 PM)Outsider Wrote:  
(07-17-2022 12:30 PM)WestTexas409 Wrote:  
(07-15-2022 11:59 AM)Itinerant Texan Wrote:  
(07-15-2022 10:00 AM)Lopes87 Wrote:  
(07-15-2022 09:36 AM)Spolovilo4EVER Wrote:  I doubt even Yale could save WAC Football. The new commish has run football in the ground for good I imagine. No western (BSC) team wants to join, let alone anyone from the ASUN. A few RMAC/LSC move ups might salvage an eternal FCS version but I doubt any of them would want to join a basketball centric dumpster fire. If I were UTRGV, I would be begging the Southland for an invite, they may actually let them in this time. Tarleton, ACU, and SFA only hope is FBS and that dream of a WAC FBS is dead and buried unless the Montana's and Dakota's decide to join, which will never happen as long as the majority of members do not have football teams. I wish the non football schools would all just leave and form another conference so we could grandfather the WAC into FBS with real schools.

Um what "real" football schools would want to join a league with Torkelton St SUU UTech ACU SFA? WAC football schools NEED the basketball schools. It would also be tough to force GCU UVU SU CBU out of the WAC.

Lol dude from GCU said "real school"

(07-17-2022 12:09 PM)Todor Wrote:  
(07-17-2022 08:04 AM)OscarWildeCat Wrote:  
(07-16-2022 12:26 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  When Thornton was hired I thought:

1. The WAC isn't serious about Football.
2. FBS is not in the WAC's future.

Thornton reminds me of Weir, full of ideas and harkens back to college basketball of the past. I'm not saying that's a good or a bad, but shows his inexperience.

In many ways I love being in the WAC- the basketball tournament in Vegas. The baseball tournament at a major league Spring training site. BUT if the WAC isn’t serious about football, I can see ACU and SFA looking for another FCS Conference, possibly the ASUN. Tarleton is gone as soon as they get a FBS invite so I didn’t mention them.

Here’s hoping…

How come?

Todor has never had any specific reason for his hate of Texas schools. What's interesting is that this wonderful WAC commissioner, who is so pro basketball, is losing two of his top basketball programs as well as football programs. He can't keep mediocre programs or good ones.

Are you referring to NMSU and SHSU? How would he be able to keep those programs?
07-17-2022 01:39 PM
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Post: #71
RE: More conference moves
Are you referring to NMSU and SHSU? How would he be able to keep those programs?
[/quote]

Seems like a lot of excuses as to how he had no choice or couldn't have done anything but sit and watch it all happen around him. He is certainly trying to project strength, but that strength is yet unproven. Today's college athletics environment will take a lot of work and innovation at all levels. We haven't seen it so far from the WAC leadership. I admit we are new to this conference, but what we are seeing only projects a cautious tone at best. Certainly NMSU and SHSU thought other pastures were greener, even though FBS/FCS may not even exist in its current form in a few years. Certainly the money, exposure and prestige wasn't there.
07-17-2022 02:00 PM
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Post: #72
RE: More conference moves
(07-17-2022 02:00 PM)Outsider Wrote:  Are you referring to NMSU and SHSU? How would he be able to keep those programs?

Seems like a lot of excuses as to how he had no choice or couldn't have done anything but sit and watch it all happen around him. He is certainly trying to project strength, but that strength is yet unproven. Today's college athletics environment will take a lot of work and innovation at all levels. We haven't seen it so far from the WAC leadership. I admit we are new to this conference, but what we are seeing only projects a cautious tone at best. Certainly NMSU and SHSU thought other pastures were greener, even though FBS/FCS may not even exist in its current form in a few years. Certainly the money, exposure and prestige wasn't there.
[/quote]

Didn’t answer my question. What could he have done to keep NMSU and SHSU? NMSU went to a conference so their FBS football team wouldn’t be independent anymore. Sam Houston State went to a FBS conference. The WAC doesn’t offer FBS. So how could any commissioner “do something” to keep them from “upgrading” their football situation?

You can argue that WAC basketball is equal to CUSA, but CUSA is more highly regarded than WAC basketball and once NMSU moves, it most certainly will.
(This post was last modified: 07-17-2022 02:48 PM by DoubleRSU.)
07-17-2022 02:47 PM
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Itinerant Texan Offline
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Post: #73
RE: More conference moves
In simple terms: the WAC and the SLC both hired new Commishes around the same time. We (the WAC) hired the equivalent of Tom Burnett, and they (the SLC) hired their version of Jeff Hurd. One is a procastinating blowhard, while the other is a visionary go-getter. We got the short end of the stick. And as a result, basically overnight, the WAC Football dream that Hurd built has become a nightmare.
07-17-2022 02:59 PM
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Post: #74
RE: More conference moves
(07-17-2022 02:59 PM)Itinerant Texan Wrote:  In simple terms: the WAC and the SLC both hired new Commishes around the same time. We (the WAC) hired the equivalent of Tom Burnett, and they (the SLC) hired their version of Jeff Hurd. One is a procastinating blowhard, while the other is a visionary go-getter. We got the short end of the stick. And as a result, basically overnight, the WAC Football dream that Hurd built has become a nightmare.

Says the fan of a team creating more football instability, by talking about FBS any chance they get…
07-17-2022 03:41 PM
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RE: More conference moves
(07-17-2022 03:41 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  
(07-17-2022 02:59 PM)Itinerant Texan Wrote:  In simple terms: the WAC and the SLC both hired new Commishes around the same time. We (the WAC) hired the equivalent of Tom Burnett, and they (the SLC) hired their version of Jeff Hurd. One is a procastinating blowhard, while the other is a visionary go-getter. We got the short end of the stick. And as a result, basically overnight, the WAC Football dream that Hurd built has become a nightmare.

Says the fan of a team creating more football instability, by talking about FBS any chance they get…

Nothing new. Been saying it from the get-go - others just chose not to listen. We did believe, or were hopeful, that the new WAC would be able to get to FBS, in unison.
07-17-2022 03:49 PM
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Post: #76
RE: More conference moves
(07-17-2022 03:41 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  
(07-17-2022 02:59 PM)Itinerant Texan Wrote:  In simple terms: the WAC and the SLC both hired new Commishes around the same time. We (the WAC) hired the equivalent of Tom Burnett, and they (the SLC) hired their version of Jeff Hurd. One is a procastinating blowhard, while the other is a visionary go-getter. We got the short end of the stick. And as a result, basically overnight, the WAC Football dream that Hurd built has become a nightmare.

Says the fan of a team creating more football instability, by talking about FBS any chance they get…

1) You aren't offering anything either. 2) The commissioner needs to be selling the conference and looking for value adding prospects. Do we line that all out point by point here? No, not really, but we know that moves right now are about market value. I do think that the WAC has market value to offer, but it will take better effort than the current commissioner has done. SHSU & NMSU about faces before anything could happen didn't help, but yes, he couldn't even keep mediocre teams from staying. Again, SHSU and NMSU made decisions on a state of football that may not even exist soon. The WAC isn't dead, but I am not about to make excuses for him. The WAC commissioner needs become innovative and think outside the box. I think that means hitting the phones and conference rooms of schools and media outlets. It means valuing football as much as basketball and marketing those equally, as well as the other sports the WAC offers. It means meeting with the various schools of the WAC and working with them with whatever they need to help make the conference more valuable. The reality is That NMSU and SHSU are gone, they have made their decision to screw the conference and go after whatever money they can. Yes, Tarleton will as well because the WAC isn't offering anything. For now, basketball is stable, baseball is stable, others??? We'll see. Unless anything is done soon, football in the WAC will fall even more. What will ACU do? I really don't know, but I agree with others that ACU has invested itself heavily in being competitive in the best conference it can. Schools that don't have football programs don't have the same issues that others do, especially at the FCS level. G5 FBS will get left behind from the superschools to one degree or another. FCS chasing a glory FBS dream isn't what it was even 2 years ago. What will happen between FCS and lower level FBS? If the WAC commissioner can't figure that out, he and the WAC will have some tough times ahead. For now, CUSA is a step up in basketball and football, but in the current changing environments those who think outside the box have better potential to change that. Or, they shrink their conference and consolidate on those sports they can control. That leaves some of its schools trying to figure out what to do with other sports. That's not innovative anyway you look at it.
07-17-2022 04:10 PM
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Post: #77
RE: More conference moves
(07-17-2022 04:10 PM)Outsider Wrote:  
(07-17-2022 03:41 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  
(07-17-2022 02:59 PM)Itinerant Texan Wrote:  In simple terms: the WAC and the SLC both hired new Commishes around the same time. We (the WAC) hired the equivalent of Tom Burnett, and they (the SLC) hired their version of Jeff Hurd. One is a procastinating blowhard, while the other is a visionary go-getter. We got the short end of the stick. And as a result, basically overnight, the WAC Football dream that Hurd built has become a nightmare.

Says the fan of a team creating more football instability, by talking about FBS any chance they get…

1) You aren't offering anything either. 2) The commissioner needs to be selling the conference and looking for value adding prospects. Do we line that all out point by point here? No, not really, but we know that moves right now are about market value. I do think that the WAC has market value to offer, but it will take better effort than the current commissioner has done. SHSU & NMSU about faces before anything could happen didn't help, but yes, he couldn't even keep mediocre teams from staying. Again, SHSU and NMSU made decisions on a state of football that may not even exist soon. The WAC isn't dead, but I am not about to make excuses for him. The WAC commissioner needs become innovative and think outside the box. I think that means hitting the phones and conference rooms of schools and media outlets. It means valuing football as much as basketball and marketing those equally, as well as the other sports the WAC offers. It means meeting with the various schools of the WAC and working with them with whatever they need to help make the conference more valuable. The reality is That NMSU and SHSU are gone, they have made their decision to screw the conference and go after whatever money they can. Yes, Tarleton will as well because the WAC isn't offering anything. For now, basketball is stable, baseball is stable, others??? We'll see. Unless anything is done soon, football in the WAC will fall even more. What will ACU do? I really don't know, but I agree with others that ACU has invested itself heavily in being competitive in the best conference it can. Schools that don't have football programs don't have the same issues that others do, especially at the FCS level. G5 FBS will get left behind from the superschools to one degree or another. FCS chasing a glory FBS dream isn't what it was even 2 years ago. What will happen between FCS and lower level FBS? If the WAC commissioner can't figure that out, he and the WAC will have some tough times ahead. For now, CUSA is a step up in basketball and football, but in the current changing environments those who think outside the box have better potential to change that. Or, they shrink their conference and consolidate on those sports they can control. That leaves some of its schools trying to figure out what to do with other sports. That's not innovative anyway you look at it.

1) I am not complaining about the commissioner and his “inability” to hang on to NMSU and SHSU. Thornton was named commissioner on November 4th. The next day, NMSU and SHSU announced their move to CUSA, so he had zero chance to suggest anything. Even if he did have “good suggestions”, NMSU and SHSU were already moving to CUSA. So to complain about his lack of whatever, is completely stupid and nonsensical.

2) Whatever the WAC does in football, really doesn’t concern Seattle U. As a WAC fan, I hope that all WAC schools are in a good place. However, if the WAC stops sponsoring football, it doesn’t effect me any.

3) There are no football schools in the west. The WAC and others, have already combed through all the prospects. If the remaining D2 Texas schools don’t want to go to D1, there is literally nobody else left. Sure, Western Oregon could one day decide to go D1, but it’s not likely. Which schools are putting out studies or have administrators saying they’re interested?

Thornton is in a tough spot, but it’s also ridiculous to think he has a lot of football options and he is just “sitting on his ass” about it.
07-17-2022 04:37 PM
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Post: #78
RE: More conference moves
The following is from the announcement of the new Commissioner. One would think a strong Football assistant or councelor would be critical from day one. At the very least we need more football experience working with the Commissioner. Just an opinion from someone unqualified to really know what commissioners have to do.

Thornton joins the WAC following one year as associate commissioner for basketball at the American Athletic Conference. In that role, he served as the primary administrator for men's and women's basketball, including oversight of scheduling, officiating and game operations as well as compliance with NCAA governance.

<snip>

Thornton joined the American after two year as assistant director for basketball development at the NCAA National Office. He was responsible for developing relationships with constituents in the men's and women's basketball communities, including coaches, apparel companies and professional basketball organizations. He additionally served as a liaison to the NCAA men's and women's basketball oversight committees, developing legislative concepts to foster the growth and development of college basketball.

Thornton was a standout men's basketball player at Xavier University, where he was the 2005 and 2006 Atlantic-10 Student-Athlete of the Year, a CoSIDA Academic All-America selection and was a first-team all-conference pick for the Musketeers' 2006 Atlantic-10 championship team. He began his playing career at Vanderbilt University, where he was an SEC all-freshman selection in 2002 and played professionally for the Artland Dragons for the Basketball Bundesliga in Germany from 2006-07.
07-17-2022 04:40 PM
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Post: #79
RE: More conference moves
(07-17-2022 02:00 PM)Outsider Wrote:  Are you referring to NMSU and SHSU? How would he be able to keep those programs?

Seems like a lot of excuses as to how he had no choice or couldn't have done anything but sit and watch it all happen around him. He is certainly trying to project strength, but that strength is yet unproven. Today's college athletics environment will take a lot of work and innovation at all levels. We haven't seen it so far from the WAC leadership. I admit we are new to this conference, but what we are seeing only projects a cautious tone at best. Certainly NMSU and SHSU thought other pastures were greener, even though FBS/FCS may not even exist in its current form in a few years. Certainly the money, exposure and prestige wasn't there.
[/quote]

Probably best to get out now, recognize what a stupid choice you made for yourselves and find some other place to play your football.
07-17-2022 05:00 PM
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DoubleRSU Offline
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Post: #80
RE: More conference moves
(07-17-2022 04:40 PM)RCI Wrote:  The following is from the announcement of the new Commissioner. One would think a strong Football assistant or councelor would be critical from day one. At the very least we need more football experience working with the Commissioner. Just an opinion from someone unqualified to really know what commissioners have to do.

Thornton joins the WAC following one year as associate commissioner for basketball at the American Athletic Conference. In that role, he served as the primary administrator for men's and women's basketball, including oversight of scheduling, officiating and game operations as well as compliance with NCAA governance.

<snip>

Thornton joined the American after two year as assistant director for basketball development at the NCAA National Office. He was responsible for developing relationships with constituents in the men's and women's basketball communities, including coaches, apparel companies and professional basketball organizations. He additionally served as a liaison to the NCAA men's and women's basketball oversight committees, developing legislative concepts to foster the growth and development of college basketball.

Thornton was a standout men's basketball player at Xavier University, where he was the 2005 and 2006 Atlantic-10 Student-Athlete of the Year, a CoSIDA Academic All-America selection and was a first-team all-conference pick for the Musketeers' 2006 Atlantic-10 championship team. He began his playing career at Vanderbilt University, where he was an SEC all-freshman selection in 2002 and played professionally for the Artland Dragons for the Basketball Bundesliga in Germany from 2006-07.

How would have an “assistant football commissioner” prevented NMSU and SHSU from joining FBS? How would they have prevented “2 loser schools” from not wanting to compete at a high sporting level from going back to the Southland? “Keep your football here, but suck at all other sports here in the WAC for eternity. How does that sound Lamar and UIW?”
07-17-2022 05:03 PM
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