Here is what I think. If they do vote about how many people on campus before a school moves up? Queens will be denied. That is why they are going do this now before that rule be put in place. Example a school like UCO in Edmond, Oklahoma with close to 20,000 students will be okay to move up and a school like Queens might be denied for their small size.

Schools in these conferences will be dropped down. Less than 4000 for privates and less than 5000 for Publics.

A10 -2
ASUN -1
Big South -5
Chicago State
MAAC -6
MEAC -5
MVC -2
NEC -6
Patriot -4
SoCon -2
Summit -2
SWAC -5
WCC -1

(02-12-2022 09:58 PM)46566 Wrote:  I don't know if it was posted here but they okayed looking to go D1. Basically asking around if anyone wants them then work from there.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.charlot...18363.html

There are a lot of similar NAIA schools that have moved to D2. By similar I mean they have moderately successful athletics programs, but many of the their best programs are niche sports. They feel like they are a sports power because of success in certain sports, but often those sports are not that heavily contested. In this case I am referring to Queens 6 straight national titles in swimming. I’m sure it puts them up near the top of the Directors Cup standings every year and I’m sure they are proud and feel great about that. If that type of success is part of their logic, it is very flawed.

Actually, after going back and looking at the last few years directors cup standings etc, Queens is even more of a joke than I previously thought. And 1,600 students, it’s a total joke. But hey, it’s their money to waste I suppose.

Ah, but the allure of the next higher level…

I dont see what on campus enrollment has to do with it. It may be an indicator of financial ability, but as long as the school has the willingness and ability to fund the program, enrollment isn't revalent, particularly for private schools.

I used to think so. But then I learned how small Wake Forest is. Which is certainly a legit D1. As recently as 2000 they were under 4000.

https://prod.wp.cdn.aws.wfu.edu/sites/20...16_p14.pdf

Would love another Charlotte school

(02-13-2022 04:29 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Here is what I think. If they do vote about how many people on campus before a school moves up? Queens will be denied. That is why they are going do this now before that rule be put in place. Example a school like UCO in Edmond, Oklahoma with close to 20,000 students will be okay to move up and a school like Queens might be denied for their small size.

Schools in these conferences will be dropped down. Less than 4000 for privates and less than 5000 for Publics.

A10 -2
ASUN -1
Big South -5
Chicago State
MAAC -6
MEAC -5
MVC -2
NEC -6
Patriot -4
SoCon -2
Summit -2
SWAC -5
WCC -1

By your estimate, most of the SUNY Colleges, most of the Wisconsin schools and numerous other D3 schools would qualify.

(02-13-2022 05:14 AM)Todor Wrote:  

(02-12-2022 09:58 PM)46566 Wrote:  I don't know if it was posted here but they okayed looking to go D1. Basically asking around if anyone wants them then work from there.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.charlot...18363.html

There are a lot of similar NAIA schools that have moved to D2. By similar I mean they have moderately successful athletics programs, but many of the their best programs are niche sports. They feel like they are a sports power because of success in certain sports, but often those sports are not that heavily contested. In this case I am referring to Queens 6 straight national titles in swimming. I’m sure it puts them up near the top of the Directors Cup standings every year and I’m sure they are proud and feel great about that. If that type of success is part of their logic, it is very flawed.

Actually, after going back and looking at the last few years directors cup standings etc, Queens is even more of a joke than I previously thought. And 1,600 students, it’s a total joke. But hey, it’s their money to waste I suppose.

Ah, but the allure of the next higher level…

It's a good selling point for the college I guess. I don't mind another bottom tier school in basketball. They're only hurting themselves and their students. I'm sure there's going to be a conference wanting a warm body to play against in conference.

I had never heard of Queens before this thread, so even talking about D1 raises their profile a little. Being D1 is a form of marketing. Imagine if they actually made it to the Big Dance once in a while.

I’ve always thought the sole good reason to be in D2 is that it can lead to D1.

(02-13-2022 02:40 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  I had never heard of Queens before this thread, so even talking about D1 raises their profile a little. Being D1 is a form of marketing. Imagine if they actually made it to the Big Dance once in a while.

I’ve always thought the sole good reason to be in D2 is that it can lead to D1.

Imagine if Belmont stayed in the NAIA or only moved to D-II. Sure lots fail but these school all want to hope they can be the next Belmont, Boise St. I love watching UMBC beat UVa and all the 15 seeds that have knocked off a 2 over the years. Fact is it's meh if say 1 seed Kentucky loses to 16 seed Washington St. in a P5+BE+Gonzaga breakaway.

(02-14-2022 01:35 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 02:40 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  I had never heard of Queens before this thread, so even talking about D1 raises their profile a little. Being D1 is a form of marketing. Imagine if they actually made it to the Big Dance once in a while.

I’ve always thought the sole good reason to be in D2 is that it can lead to D1.

Imagine if Belmont stayed in the NAIA or only moved to D-II. Sure lots fail but these school all want to hope they can be the next Belmont, Boise St. I love watching UMBC beat UVa and all the 15 seeds that have knocked off a 2 over the years. Fact is it's meh if say 1 seed Kentucky loses to 16 seed Washington St. in a P5+BE+Gonzaga breakaway.

Exactly. Belmont, Lipscomb, Cal Baptist, College of Charleston, Grand Canyon ... those were good NCAA moves, as it turns out.

Jury still out on Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist, Dixie State. Probably others I'm not thinking of at the moment.

(02-14-2022 02:02 AM)teamvsn Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 01:35 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 02:40 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  I had never heard of Queens before this thread, so even talking about D1 raises their profile a little. Being D1 is a form of marketing. Imagine if they actually made it to the Big Dance once in a while.

I’ve always thought the sole good reason to be in D2 is that it can lead to D1.

Imagine if Belmont stayed in the NAIA or only moved to D-II. Sure lots fail but these school all want to hope they can be the next Belmont, Boise St. I love watching UMBC beat UVa and all the 15 seeds that have knocked off a 2 over the years. Fact is it's meh if say 1 seed Kentucky loses to 16 seed Washington St. in a P5+BE+Gonzaga breakaway.

Exactly. Belmont, Lipscomb, Cal Baptist, College of Charleston, Grand Canyon ... those were good NCAA moves, as it turns out.

Jury still out on Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist, Dixie State. Probably others I'm not thinking of at the moment.

From D-II
FGCU, I'll never forget their sweet 16. NDSU, SDSU in fcs also been solid bball. NKU has done well so far.

(02-13-2022 10:55 AM)teamvsn Wrote:  I dont see what on campus enrollment has to do with it. It may be an indicator of financial ability, but as long as the school has the willingness and ability to fund the program, enrollment isn't revalent, particularly for private schools.

I used to think so. But then I learned how small Wake Forest is. Which is certainly a legit D1. As recently as 2000 they were under 4000.

https://prod.wp.cdn.aws.wfu.edu/sites/20...16_p14.pdf

It was in the news articles talking about changes in the by-laws about the enrollment sizes on who should be in D1. They do that in high school sports across the country. Queens University does not have that many students to go to games at UNC or Duke, but a school like Cal. Poly Pomona could send a lot of students to go see their school to take on UCLA. There are more money incentive for P5 to add schools than a small school brcause of the potentials are there.

Again, when I went to Queens we played against the following: Presbyterian, Gardner Webb, Longwood, USC-Spartandburg (now Upstate) that never were good at the D2 level and have gone D1. So stop

(02-13-2022 04:29 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Here is what I think. If they do vote about how many people on campus before a school moves up? Queens will be denied. That is why they are going do this now before that rule be put in place. Example a school like UCO in Edmond, Oklahoma with close to 20,000 students will be okay to move up and a school like Queens might be denied for their small size.

Schools in these conferences will be dropped down. Less than 4000 for privates and less than 5000 for Publics.

A10 -2
ASUN -1
Big South -5
Chicago State
MAAC -6
MEAC -5
MVC -2
NEC -6
Patriot -4
SoCon -2
Summit -2
SWAC -5
WCC -1

Enrollment does not correlate to the ability to pay for a DI athletic department

BTW - you just dropped Army, Navy and Air Force from DI.

See how dumb this is?

(02-14-2022 03:58 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 10:55 AM)teamvsn Wrote:  I dont see what on campus enrollment has to do with it. It may be an indicator of financial ability, but as long as the school has the willingness and ability to fund the program, enrollment isn't revalent, particularly for private schools.

I used to think so. But then I learned how small Wake Forest is. Which is certainly a legit D1. As recently as 2000 they were under 4000.

https://prod.wp.cdn.aws.wfu.edu/sites/20...16_p14.pdf

It was in the news articles talking about changes in the by-laws about the enrollment sizes on who should be in D1. They do that in high school sports across the country. Queens University does not have that many students to go to games at UNC or Duke, but a school like Cal. Poly Pomona could send a lot of students to go see their school to take on UCLA. There are more money incentive for P5 to add schools than a small school brcause of the potentials are there.

By that logic should we also factor in metro size? Even if Queens doesn't have many students, a lot of people live in the Charlotte area who could go to games.

And I don't think most schools really think about this when scheduling buy games. FIU played Long Island this year, I don't think FIU's hope was that some of LIU's 15,000 students would show up to the game.

(02-14-2022 12:50 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 03:58 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 10:55 AM)teamvsn Wrote:  I dont see what on campus enrollment has to do with it. It may be an indicator of financial ability, but as long as the school has the willingness and ability to fund the program, enrollment isn't revalent, particularly for private schools.

I used to think so. But then I learned how small Wake Forest is. Which is certainly a legit D1. As recently as 2000 they were under 4000.

https://prod.wp.cdn.aws.wfu.edu/sites/20...16_p14.pdf

It was in the news articles talking about changes in the by-laws about the enrollment sizes on who should be in D1. They do that in high school sports across the country. Queens University does not have that many students to go to games at UNC or Duke, but a school like Cal. Poly Pomona could send a lot of students to go see their school to take on UCLA. There are more money incentive for P5 to add schools than a small school brcause of the potentials are there.

By that logic should we also factor in metro size? Even if Queens doesn't have many students, a lot of people live in the Charlotte area who could go to games.

And I don't think most schools really think about this when scheduling buy games. FIU played Long Island this year, I don't think FIU's hope was that some of LIU's 15,000 students would show up to the game.

Theres more $$$ within one square mile of Queens than the rest of Charlotte combined.

Thats an exaggeration, but not by much.

(02-13-2022 02:40 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  I had never heard of Queens before this thread, so even talking about D1 raises their profile a little. Being D1 is a form of marketing. Imagine if they actually made it to the Big Dance once in a while.

I’ve always thought the sole good reason to be in D2 is that it can lead to D1.

I had, but only because I went to grad school with a guy that went there.

(02-14-2022 03:58 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 10:55 AM)teamvsn Wrote:  I dont see what on campus enrollment has to do with it. It may be an indicator of financial ability, but as long as the school has the willingness and ability to fund the program, enrollment isn't revalent, particularly for private schools.

I used to think so. But then I learned how small Wake Forest is. Which is certainly a legit D1. As recently as 2000 they were under 4000.

https://prod.wp.cdn.aws.wfu.edu/sites/20...16_p14.pdf

It was in the news articles talking about changes in the by-laws about the enrollment sizes on who should be in D1. They do that in high school sports across the country. Queens University does not have that many students to go to games at UNC or Duke, but a school like Cal. Poly Pomona could send a lot of students to go see their school to take on UCLA. There are more money incentive for P5 to add schools than a small school brcause of the potentials are there.

Enrollment is totally arbitrary.

For instance, one of the schools on your proposed chopping block - Davidson - has less than 2000 students, but is first place in the A-10 and has made 8 NCAA Tournament appearances in the past 20 years. Their most famous basketball alum (Steph Curry) is one of the biggest mega-stars in the NBA. They also have a larger endowment ($1.3 billion) than several SEC schools that are 10 to 20 times larger than them, including Auburn and LSU. When you break that down considering that endowment is applying to a college that's smaller than our local public high school, that's an insanely wealthy school on a per student basis (and it's almost entirely for undergrad as opposed to grad research funding). There's absolutely no reason why Davidson should be eliminated simply based on enrollment.

In any event, I continue to be puzzled by the complaints on this forum about various schools moving up to or retaining Division I status. IMHO, Division I should be open to any school that is willing to fund and guarantee the required number of scholarships. That's it - everything else (enrollment, attendance, etc.) should be completely irrelevant. I don't even care whether they're able to find a conference home - if they're willing to compete as an independent, then that's fine with me. It's not my place to tell a school whether it's worth it or not for their own interests. Division I is NOT supposed to be some type of exclusionary bar.

In contrast, I believe that the individual conferences themselves should be free to be as elitist as they want. If they want to apply various requirements to membership (such as revenue and/or academics), then those conferences should be completely free to do so.

It seems like a lot of posters here believe the opposite where Division I should be more exclusionary while the individual conferences should be less elitist. That just doesn't make sense to me in practicality.

(02-14-2022 01:35 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 02:40 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  I had never heard of Queens before this thread, so even talking about D1 raises their profile a little. Being D1 is a form of marketing. Imagine if they actually made it to the Big Dance once in a while.

I’ve always thought the sole good reason to be in D2 is that it can lead to D1.

Imagine if Belmont stayed in the NAIA or only moved to D-II. Sure lots fail but these school all want to hope they can be the next Belmont, Boise St. I love watching UMBC beat UVa and all the 15 seeds that have knocked off a 2 over the years. Fact is it's meh if say 1 seed Kentucky loses to 16 seed Washington St. in a P5+BE+Gonzaga breakaway.

I could have enrolled at what was then a 2,000-student Belmont College in August 1981 (chose Middle Tennessee State instead). To see where the the university is today (almost 9,000 students) compared to its status 40 years ago is absolutely mind-blowing. If BU progresses in such a robust manner during the next 40 years ... I'll be dead and won't be able to witness, but it will be a big-time university on so many fronts.

(02-14-2022 12:29 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 04:29 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Here is what I think. If they do vote about how many people on campus before a school moves up? Queens will be denied. That is why they are going do this now before that rule be put in place. Example a school like UCO in Edmond, Oklahoma with close to 20,000 students will be okay to move up and a school like Queens might be denied for their small size.

Schools in these conferences will be dropped down. Less than 4000 for privates and less than 5000 for Publics.

A10 -2
ASUN -1
Big South -5
Chicago State
MAAC -6
MEAC -5
MVC -2
NEC -6
Patriot -4
SoCon -2
Summit -2
SWAC -5
WCC -1

Enrollment does not correlate to the ability to pay for a DI athletic department

BTW - you just dropped Army, Navy and Air Force from DI.

See how dumb this is?

All five military schools are exempt.

(02-14-2022 11:02 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 12:29 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(02-13-2022 04:29 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Here is what I think. If they do vote about how many people on campus before a school moves up? Queens will be denied. That is why they are going do this now before that rule be put in place. Example a school like UCO in Edmond, Oklahoma with close to 20,000 students will be okay to move up and a school like Queens might be denied for their small size.

Schools in these conferences will be dropped down. Less than 4000 for privates and less than 5000 for Publics.

A10 -2
ASUN -1
Big South -5
Chicago State
MAAC -6
MEAC -5
MVC -2
NEC -6
Patriot -4
SoCon -2
Summit -2
SWAC -5
WCC -1

Enrollment does not correlate to the ability to pay for a DI athletic department

BTW - you just dropped Army, Navy and Air Force from DI.

See how dumb this is?

All five military schools are exempt.

Why didn't you say that before? But even if you had it's still dumb.