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Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
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CYOWA Online
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Wink Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
Welcome to the Idaho Broncos trolling thread! 02-13-banana

Boise State Pros:
~defeated Bob Stoops with a Statue of Liberty play
~potatoes
~rabid fanbase of approximately 13 people

Boise State Cons:
~blue turf 03-puke
~stadium capacity < 38,000
~proximity to Canada
~lousy academics/bloated community college (no offense, UCF & Houston) 05-stirthepot
~Boise isn't a state
~Humanitarian Bowl

Colorado State Pros:
~Cultural fit as a Land Grant Ag school similar to ISU, OSU, KSU, WVU (Tech also features an Ag program)
~conveniently located between BYU and the rest of the conference
~Fort Collins features numerous craft breweries and dispensaries for that nagging glaucoma
~Beautiful new football stadium
~Denver television market
~student population 34,000; large alumni base comparable to other Big 12 schools
~Rocky Mountain Showdown

Colorado State Cons:
~mediocre football since the departure of Sonny Lubick
~tepid football fan support (see above)

Recency bias leans Boise State because of their sustained success in football for the last few decades. They haven't exactly dominated the Mountain West like they did the WAC, however. Anyone who remembers Sonny Lubick knows the Rams can get things rolling again. The Denver market alone provides a much higher ceiling for Colorado State.
(This post was last modified: 01-27-2022 09:42 AM by CYOWA.)
01-26-2022 01:13 PM
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natibeast2.0 Offline
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
I like both Colorado St. or SDSU over Boise. There isn’t one thing I like about Boise outside of some recent football success.

Memphis is easy number 1 if we are discussing east of Miss candidates as well.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2022 01:19 PM by natibeast2.0.)
01-26-2022 01:18 PM
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bear2be2 Offline
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
I've never understood the Boise hate/disrespect. That's a really good program that has earned everything it's ever gotten and has sustained its success across three decades and numerous coaching changes.

I've also never understood the Colorado State love. That's a really mediocre program that has no good excuse to be the afterthought it has been since Lubick left.

I'd take Colorado State as the 16th team to round out a Western pod with BYU, Boise and San Diego State. But otherwise, I'd rather not bring in a program that is closer to Kansas competitively than any of the other teams in this league.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2022 01:48 PM by bear2be2.)
01-26-2022 01:45 PM
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CYOWA Online
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
I didn't bring up Memphis because the overall sentiment seems to be everyone is on board with them as 1st choice outside of the possibility of other Power 5 additions (Arizona, ASU).

What does Boise State have to offer other than football success? Yes; I'm aware football is the main driver behind all of this, but you have to take other things into consideration. You think the B1G added Rutgers and Maryland because they were football juggernauts? No- they liked their location, television markets, and academic standing.

Colorado State has a lot to offer besides football. Let the Pac 12 have Boise and San Diego. We'll be shipping our Olympic athletes between Provo, Ames, Morgantown, Orlando, and Lubbock. Let's establish a little geographic sanity.
01-26-2022 02:03 PM
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
(01-26-2022 01:45 PM)bear2be2 Wrote:  I've never understood the Boise hate/disrespect. That's a really good program that has earned everything it's ever gotten and has sustained its success across three decades and numerous coaching changes.

I've also never understood the Colorado State love. That's a really mediocre program that has no good excuse to be the afterthought it has been since Lubick left.

I'd take Colorado State as the 16th team to round out a Western pod with BYU, Boise and San Diego State. But otherwise, I'd rather not bring in a program that is closer to Kansas competitively than any of the other teams in this league.
Because it’s not only about football success, it’s the university as a whole. CSU has all the “hard” parts of realignment (location, academics, etc) covered, they just have to hire better coaches, and they have the means and resources to do it.
01-26-2022 02:23 PM
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
(01-26-2022 02:23 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 01:45 PM)bear2be2 Wrote:  I've never understood the Boise hate/disrespect. That's a really good program that has earned everything it's ever gotten and has sustained its success across three decades and numerous coaching changes.

I've also never understood the Colorado State love. That's a really mediocre program that has no good excuse to be the afterthought it has been since Lubick left.

I'd take Colorado State as the 16th team to round out a Western pod with BYU, Boise and San Diego State. But otherwise, I'd rather not bring in a program that is closer to Kansas competitively than any of the other teams in this league.
Because it’s not only about football success, it’s the university as a whole. CSU has all the “hard” parts of realignment (location, academics, etc) covered, they just have to hire better coaches, and they have the means and resources to do it.

Agree, there hasn't been a single hire at CSU since Lubick left where even beforehand that the hire looked good. I'm a bit ambivalent on Norvell...I doubt he'll do any better than at Nevada, but at least CSU flexed its financial muscle on this one.

Like, was there anyone in America other than Urban Meyer, Steve Addazio, and the CSU AD that thought Addazio was a good hire? FFS.
01-26-2022 02:27 PM
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
(01-26-2022 01:13 PM)CYOWA Wrote:  ~bloated community college (no offense, UCF & Houston) 05-stirthepot

UCF and Houston may have a ton of students, but the academic standards are considerably higher than at most of the Big 12 schools currently. Research productivity is high as well. I've found that most current Big 12 fans just assume that the giant metro schools must be low standards, low productivity, but it's just not the case.
01-26-2022 02:29 PM
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bear2be2 Offline
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
(01-26-2022 02:03 PM)CYOWA Wrote:  I didn't bring up Memphis because the overall sentiment seems to be everyone is on board with them as 1st choice outside of the possibility of other Power 5 additions (Arizona, ASU).

What does Boise State have to offer other than football success? Yes; I'm aware football is the main driver behind all of this, but you have to take other things into consideration. You think the B1G added Rutgers and Maryland because they were football juggernauts? No- they liked their location, television markets, and academic standing.

Colorado State has a lot to offer besides football. Let the Pac 12 have Boise and San Diego. We'll be shipping our Olympic athletes between Provo, Ames, Morgantown, Orlando, and Lubbock. Let's establish a little geographic sanity.
The Big Ten was expanding for different (largely obsolete) reasons than the Big 12 would be. The Big Ten was trying to add to its TV footprint -- a now silly endeavor considering how cord-cutting has impacted the media landscape. And I would bet if you polled those involved, most would say that adding Rutgers was a giant mistake.

The Big 12, on the other hand, has expanded and would presumably continue expanding in this hypothetical to strengthen the perception of its league and add quality media inventory to sell to potential TV/streaming partners.

And with the lack of availability of name brands to add, you're kind of in a beggars can't be choosers situation. Given those circumstances, I would much rather have a program in Boise that has proven it can sustain a high level of play on the football field and competent level of play on the basketball court than Colorado State, which is both worse on the field and brings you fewer viewers than BSU would.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2022 02:38 PM by bear2be2.)
01-26-2022 02:37 PM
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CYOWA Online
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
(01-26-2022 02:29 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 01:13 PM)CYOWA Wrote:  ~bloated community college (no offense, UCF & Houston) 05-stirthepot

UCF and Houston may have a ton of students, but the academic standards are considerably higher than at most of the Big 12 schools currently. Research productivity is high as well. I've found that most current Big 12 fans just assume that the giant metro schools must be low standards, low productivity, but it's just not the case.

Good point. Colorado State, Houston, UCF, and now Memphis all have R1 status. Boise State is still R2.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2022 02:40 PM by CYOWA.)
01-26-2022 02:38 PM
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
(01-26-2022 02:29 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 01:13 PM)CYOWA Wrote:  ~bloated community college (no offense, UCF & Houston) 05-stirthepot

UCF and Houston may have a ton of students, but the academic standards are considerably higher than at most of the Big 12 schools currently. Research productivity is high as well. I've found that most current Big 12 fans just assume that the giant metro schools must be low standards, low productivity, but it's just not the case.

Obviously a joke, but still, UCF has way better academics than most people think.
01-26-2022 02:40 PM
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CitrusUCF Offline
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
(01-26-2022 02:38 PM)CYOWA Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 02:29 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 01:13 PM)CYOWA Wrote:  ~bloated community college (no offense, UCF & Houston) 05-stirthepot

UCF and Houston may have a ton of students, but the academic standards are considerably higher than at most of the Big 12 schools currently. Research productivity is high as well. I've found that most current Big 12 fans just assume that the giant metro schools must be low standards, low productivity, but it's just not the case.

Good point. Colorado State, Houston, UCF, and now Memphis all have R1 status. Boise State is still R2.

I was planning to compile this data at some point, so I decided to go ahead and do it since you mentioned R1. Sponsored research in 2019 (latest year available from the NSF) at each Big 12 institution:

Cincinnati - $529.8m
Iowa St. - $358.4m
Kansas - $352.6m
UCF - $225.1m
Kansas St. - $218.6m
Houston - $195.4m
Texas Tech - $193.9m
West Virginia - $187.5m
Oklahoma St. - $184.2m
BYU - $39.5m
Baylor - $33.3m
TCU - $6.5m

Obviously, this metric isn't particularly useful for the private schools, since all three of them emphasize teaching over research.

The schools leaving and some of the usual suspects:

*UT-Austin - $696.1m
*Colorado St. - $398.5m
*South Florida - $391.3m
*Oklahoma - $302.6m
*San Diego St. - $92.9m
*Memphis - $58.7m
*SMU - $42.5
*Boise - $39.8m
01-26-2022 02:49 PM
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
(01-26-2022 02:23 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 01:45 PM)bear2be2 Wrote:  I've never understood the Boise hate/disrespect. That's a really good program that has earned everything it's ever gotten and has sustained its success across three decades and numerous coaching changes.

I've also never understood the Colorado State love. That's a really mediocre program that has no good excuse to be the afterthought it has been since Lubick left.

I'd take Colorado State as the 16th team to round out a Western pod with BYU, Boise and San Diego State. But otherwise, I'd rather not bring in a program that is closer to Kansas competitively than any of the other teams in this league.
Because it’s not only about football success, it’s the university as a whole. CSU has all the “hard” parts of realignment (location, academics, etc) covered, they just have to hire better coaches, and they have the means and resources to do it.
I may be in the minority, but I could not care less about academics in an athletic conference. And that was true before the relatively desperate set of circumstances that have forced the Big 12 into its current situation.

And location is moderately important. But it's not as important as athletic potential. I'm looking for teams that can elevate the national perception of this conference and Baylor's program. Wins on the football field over Boise do that. Beating Colorado State does not. Colorado State would be an instant bottom-feeder in both football and men's basketball (the present season notwithstanding) and would do nothing to make people outside of the Big 12's footprint respect it more.

Love Boise or hate them, most nationwide respect the program they've built and the success they've had. Beating them means something. The more teams we have in the Big 12 for which that is true, the better.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2022 03:02 PM by bear2be2.)
01-26-2022 02:55 PM
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
(01-26-2022 02:55 PM)bear2be2 Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 02:23 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 01:45 PM)bear2be2 Wrote:  I've never understood the Boise hate/disrespect. That's a really good program that has earned everything it's ever gotten and has sustained its success across three decades and numerous coaching changes.

I've also never understood the Colorado State love. That's a really mediocre program that has no good excuse to be the afterthought it has been since Lubick left.

I'd take Colorado State as the 16th team to round out a Western pod with BYU, Boise and San Diego State. But otherwise, I'd rather not bring in a program that is closer to Kansas competitively than any of the other teams in this league.
Because it’s not only about football success, it’s the university as a whole. CSU has all the “hard” parts of realignment (location, academics, etc) covered, they just have to hire better coaches, and they have the means and resources to do it.
I may be in the minority, but I could not care less about academics in an athletic conference. And that was true before the relatively desperate set of circumstances that have forced the Big 12 into its current situation.

And location is moderately important. But it's not as important at athletic potential. I'm looking for teams that can elevate the national perception of this conference and Baylor's program. Wins on the football field over Boise do that. Beating Colorado State does not. Colorado State would be an instant bottom-feeder in both football and men's basketball (the present season notwithstanding) and would do nothing to make people outside of the Big 12's footprint respect it more.

Love Boise or hate them, most nationwide respect the program they've built and the success they've had. Beating them means something. The more teams we have in the Big 12 for which that is true, the better.

Which is why it is best to stay at 12 and wait and see what happens with the Pac and ACC. The TV negotiations will certainly reflect that.
01-26-2022 03:03 PM
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
Personal Big12 Expansion Ranking:
1. Arizona State
2. Arizona
3. Utah
4. Colorado
5. Memphis
6. SMU
7. Boise State
8. SDSU
9. Nevada
10. usf
11. Air Force
12. Colorado State
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2022 03:11 PM by ArmoredUpKnight.)
01-26-2022 03:09 PM
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
(01-26-2022 02:49 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 02:38 PM)CYOWA Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 02:29 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 01:13 PM)CYOWA Wrote:  ~bloated community college (no offense, UCF & Houston) 05-stirthepot

UCF and Houston may have a ton of students, but the academic standards are considerably higher than at most of the Big 12 schools currently. Research productivity is high as well. I've found that most current Big 12 fans just assume that the giant metro schools must be low standards, low productivity, but it's just not the case.

Good point. Colorado State, Houston, UCF, and now Memphis all have R1 status. Boise State is still R2.

I was planning to compile this data at some point, so I decided to go ahead and do it since you mentioned R1. Sponsored research in 2019 (latest year available from the NSF) at each Big 12 institution:

Cincinnati - $529.8m
Iowa St. - $358.4m
Kansas - $352.6m
UCF - $225.1m
Kansas St. - $218.6m
Houston - $195.4m
Texas Tech - $193.9m
West Virginia - $187.5m
Oklahoma St. - $184.2m
BYU - $39.5m
Baylor - $33.3m
TCU - $6.5m

Obviously, this metric isn't particularly useful for the private schools, since all three of them emphasize teaching over research.

The schools leaving and some of the usual suspects:

*UT-Austin - $696.1m
*Colorado St. - $398.5m
*South Florida - $391.3m
*Oklahoma - $302.6m
*San Diego St. - $92.9m
*Memphis - $58.7m
*SMU - $42.5
*Boise - $39.8m

Another qualification in these is that how the entities are structured impact some of the dollar totals as well. University of Texas is a great example where UT, Austin shows up at 696.1m....that is very low compared to schools that Texas probably compares itself too (Michigan 1.6B, Washington 1.4B, UW Madison 1.3B, UNC 1.1B).

However, you will notice that University of Texas for example all of it's medical school branches are separate lines (MD Anderson Cancer center is almost 970m on it's own).

Texas Tech is similar where Texas Tech and Texas Tech U Health Sciences Center are different lines.
01-26-2022 03:11 PM
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
(01-26-2022 03:03 PM)hiphopfroggy Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 02:55 PM)bear2be2 Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 02:23 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 01:45 PM)bear2be2 Wrote:  I've never understood the Boise hate/disrespect. That's a really good program that has earned everything it's ever gotten and has sustained its success across three decades and numerous coaching changes.

I've also never understood the Colorado State love. That's a really mediocre program that has no good excuse to be the afterthought it has been since Lubick left.

I'd take Colorado State as the 16th team to round out a Western pod with BYU, Boise and San Diego State. But otherwise, I'd rather not bring in a program that is closer to Kansas competitively than any of the other teams in this league.
Because it’s not only about football success, it’s the university as a whole. CSU has all the “hard” parts of realignment (location, academics, etc) covered, they just have to hire better coaches, and they have the means and resources to do it.
I may be in the minority, but I could not care less about academics in an athletic conference. And that was true before the relatively desperate set of circumstances that have forced the Big 12 into its current situation.

And location is moderately important. But it's not as important at athletic potential. I'm looking for teams that can elevate the national perception of this conference and Baylor's program. Wins on the football field over Boise do that. Beating Colorado State does not. Colorado State would be an instant bottom-feeder in both football and men's basketball (the present season notwithstanding) and would do nothing to make people outside of the Big 12's footprint respect it more.

Love Boise or hate them, most nationwide respect the program they've built and the success they've had. Beating them means something. The more teams we have in the Big 12 for which that is true, the better.

Which is why it is best to stay at 12 and wait and see what happens with the Pac and ACC. The TV negotiations will certainly reflect that.
I don't think you do anything before the PAC-12 inks its media deal. But I think you have to be prepared to expand after that, if the general consensus is that doing so makes the Big 12 a more lucrative/marketable/respected conference.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2022 03:21 PM by bear2be2.)
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CYOWA Online
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
(01-26-2022 03:03 PM)hiphopfroggy Wrote:  Which is why it is best to stay at 12 and wait and see what happens with the Pac and ACC. The TV negotiations will certainly reflect that.

Correct. Which is why I lead with "Hypothetical" in the thread title.

Who knows where Colorado State football will be in three years? Hopefully Norvell will turn them into a Mountain West juggernaut because folks in Waco really have a boner for Boise. The guys on SicEm365 often list them as a foregone conclusion. Apparently the university presidents have no say in the selection process (actually, they do).
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
(01-26-2022 01:45 PM)bear2be2 Wrote:  I've never understood the Boise hate/disrespect.

Boise State gave Iowa State the "gift" of Jim Criner in 1982 who effectively cratered our program with recruiting violations and crappy football. Think of that: we were cheating and sucked anyways. Up until that point, throughout the 60s & 70s Iowa State was the favored team in our state because the Hawkeyes were abysmal before Hayden Fry. It took us two decades to crawl out of that grave.

That and we still hold a grudge from the 2002 Humanitarian Bowl. 05-mafia
01-26-2022 03:30 PM
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
(01-26-2022 03:30 PM)CYOWA Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 01:45 PM)bear2be2 Wrote:  I've never understood the Boise hate/disrespect.

Boise State gave Iowa State the "gift" of Jim Criner in 1982 who effectively cratered our program with recruiting violations and crappy football. Think of that: we were cheating and sucked anyways. Up until that point, throughout the 60s & 70s Iowa State was the favored team in our state because the Hawkeyes were abysmal before Hayden Fry. It took us two decades to crawl out of that grave.

That and we still hold a grudge from the 2002 Humanitarian Bowl. 05-mafia

Fair enough. I should hate Nebraska (and the Carolina Panthers) more for sending us Kevin Steele then. He didn't cheat, but he might has well have. His four years were a virtual death penalty.

I remember listening to the radio as a high school junior as Seneca Wallace completed like his first 20 passes against us in a 41-0 drubbing in 2001. Unfortunately, that experience (which Steele called "a blip on the radar screen") was not atypical in those days.

One of the saddest, yet happiest moments of my time as a Baylor fan came the following year, when we rushed the field after beating a dreadful Kansas team 35-32 for Steele's first -- and only -- Big 12 win in four seasons at the helm.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2022 03:43 PM by bear2be2.)
01-26-2022 03:38 PM
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RE: Hypothetical Future Expansion: The Case for Colorado State over Boise State
My Disdain for Boise:
1) They pulled a Texas have special rules in their current conference
2) Horrible academics
3) Location does not align at all with Big XII whether latitude or longitude
4) Haven’t done much in football the last 5 years and everything else about them seems well below par
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2022 03:52 PM by natibeast2.0.)
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