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The Next Steps That Greg Sankey, The SEC, and ESPN Should Make
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #21
RE: The Next Steps That Greg Sankey, The SEC, and ESPN Should Make
(01-18-2022 08:28 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I wasn’t trying to pick a fight or dig up old feuds, I just want a realistic explanation for why 6 teams who didn’t win their conferences need a shot at a national title.

The original 6-6 plan certainly had some carrots for the Alliance conferences but not the autobids they wanted. I just don’t see the need but the SEC and ND folks seems to be the biggest proponents of it and it comes to no surprise because Swarbrick and Sankey were its architects.

Don’t forget that you and I agree on a whole lot; we just cheer for different teams and different conferences.

You weren't here yet when the CFP was formed but I was a lone voice against Quo, and Frank the Tank, and many others arguing that we needed to move to 4 P conferences, absorb the Big 12, have conference semis and send only our champions to the playoff so that committees weren't needed at all. I am merely feasting on the irony now.

I would rather see the SEC, ACC, Big 10 and PAC absorb the Big 12, or absorb the top of the ACC and rebuild the New Big 12 and move to a P4 of 18 schools each taking in the best 7 of the G5 and still have semis and 4 champs only.

My point when the CFP was formed, and still today, is that it's the only way to ensure that all conferences have compelling and meaningful regular seasons. Our bonus money is in the conference semis and the SEC and B1G would earn the most still.

Kansas and Notre Dame to bring the B1G to 16. Now it's 2 more for each of us.

Six to the PAC 12, and then a new 18 member Big 12 is created out of the rest.

From there you get an upper tier, free of the NCAA, governed by our commissioners and together we have one set of officials paid enough to make a living with benefits and retirement so that when playoffs come calling is standardized. You've included the G5 which can afford to step it up.

When I was first becoming a college football fan I lived in Sault Ste Marie, Michigan, and I pulled for Duffy's Spartans. That was very likely well before you were a glint in your mom's eye. I was born in the South and returned there when Mom went home while Dad served in Viet Nam. I just barely missed going myself. So, Muskie I have lived all over the country and other places. I have no dislike of the Big 10 and your fan bases are much like ours, except for the tailgates, but none of us can touch LSU's. Best danged tailgates ever!

Now to your point 6 at large is not my thing. It's ESPN's. They need to tie in more markets to cover those who tuned out permanently via old age and those turned off by politicizing sports. Honestly when you get a second school in the playoffs you get 3 million more and that money is currently divided 16 ways in the SEC. The participant gets 1/8th (2/16ths), the conference office gets 1 share and the other 13 get 1 share each. Oopy Do!
01-18-2022 09:02 PM
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Statefan Offline
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Post: #22
RE: The Next Steps That Greg Sankey, The SEC, and ESPN Should Make
(01-18-2022 08:28 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I wasn’t trying to pick a fight or dig up old feuds, I just want a realistic explanation for why 6 teams who didn’t win their conferences need a shot at a national title.

The original 6-6 plan certainly had some carrots for the Alliance conferences but not the autobids they wanted. I just don’t see the need but the SEC and ND folks seems to be the biggest proponents of it and it comes to no surprise because Swarbrick and Sankey were its architects.

Don’t forget that you and I agree on a whole lot; we just cheer for different teams and different conferences.

Every year there are tournaments where the bottom seeds have no practical chance in Hell. CBS and the media sell the Cinderella story and people bit. When NC State won the NCAA title in 83 that was a top 15 team until our shooting guard broke his foot while playing UVa and he was out for a dozen games. The fact that he came back to the team one game before the ACC Tournament is forgotten. Are you "giving shots" or are you manufacturing a money maker? In a 12 of 16 team playoff the bottom 4 have no chance in Hell of winning the football title because they are not going to beat three teams with superior talent.
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2022 11:09 PM by Statefan.)
01-18-2022 11:07 PM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #23
RE: The Next Steps That Greg Sankey, The SEC, and ESPN Should Make
(01-17-2022 10:34 AM)XLance Wrote:  Why would the ACC decide to throw in with the other side? After all the ACC is an ESPN conference (owned lock, stock, and barrel) .

If I understand JR's proposal, it would be an opportunity for all teams to come under a single umbrella in terms of TV rights fees, scheduling, etc. In other words, a "level playing field" - that is the attraction. He's right, at least some P5 schools would bite.
01-19-2022 07:49 AM
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XLance Online
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Post: #24
RE: The Next Steps That Greg Sankey, The SEC, and ESPN Should Make
(01-19-2022 07:49 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(01-17-2022 10:34 AM)XLance Wrote:  Why would the ACC decide to throw in with the other side? After all the ACC is an ESPN conference (owned lock, stock, and barrel) .

If I understand JR's proposal, it would be an opportunity for all teams to come under a single umbrella in terms of TV rights fees, scheduling, etc. In other words, a "level playing field" - that is the attraction. He's right, at least some P5 schools would bite.

My question was WHY would the ACC join with the PAC and B1G .........." to wrest control of the College Football Playoffs from ESPN, blunt the impact of Texas and Oklahoma's move to the SEC"........... when they themselves (the ACC) are an ESPN owned conference?
01-19-2022 12:14 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #25
RE: The Next Steps That Greg Sankey, The SEC, and ESPN Should Make
(01-19-2022 12:14 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(01-19-2022 07:49 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(01-17-2022 10:34 AM)XLance Wrote:  Why would the ACC decide to throw in with the other side? After all the ACC is an ESPN conference (owned lock, stock, and barrel) .

If I understand JR's proposal, it would be an opportunity for all teams to come under a single umbrella in terms of TV rights fees, scheduling, etc. In other words, a "level playing field" - that is the attraction. He's right, at least some P5 schools would bite.

My question was WHY would the ACC join with the PAC and B1G .........." to wrest control of the College Football Playoffs from ESPN, blunt the impact of Texas and Oklahoma's move to the SEC"........... when they themselves (the ACC) are an ESPN owned conference?

Yeah, the ACC's current position serves no purpose except to give ESPN a reason to bust you up, and to create a bigger desire for some to be elsewhere. In the end ESPN will pro rata rights to brands they want to keep and the SEC will be the new repository.

I can see them wanting full rights to the B12 and enhancing the value there with some solid ACC schools as well, just for much less than SEC payouts. I see Phillips as a provocateur who ultimately creates critical mass.
01-19-2022 12:21 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #26
RE: The Next Steps That Greg Sankey, The SEC, and ESPN Should Make
(01-18-2022 09:02 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-18-2022 08:28 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I wasn’t trying to pick a fight or dig up old feuds, I just want a realistic explanation for why 6 teams who didn’t win their conferences need a shot at a national title.

The original 6-6 plan certainly had some carrots for the Alliance conferences but not the autobids they wanted. I just don’t see the need but the SEC and ND folks seems to be the biggest proponents of it and it comes to no surprise because Swarbrick and Sankey were its architects.

Don’t forget that you and I agree on a whole lot; we just cheer for different teams and different conferences.

You weren't here yet when the CFP was formed but I was a lone voice against Quo, and Frank the Tank, and many others arguing that we needed to move to 4 P conferences, absorb the Big 12, have conference semis and send only our champions to the playoff so that committees weren't needed at all. I am merely feasting on the irony now.

I would rather see the SEC, ACC, Big 10 and PAC absorb the Big 12, or absorb the top of the ACC and rebuild the New Big 12 and move to a P4 of 18 schools each taking in the best 7 of the G5 and still have semis and 4 champs only.

My point when the CFP was formed, and still today, is that it's the only way to ensure that all conferences have compelling and meaningful regular seasons. Our bonus money is in the conference semis and the SEC and B1G would earn the most still.

Kansas and Notre Dame to bring the B1G to 16. Now it's 2 more for each of us.

Six to the PAC 12, and then a new 18 member Big 12 is created out of the rest.

From there you get an upper tier, free of the NCAA, governed by our commissioners and together we have one set of officials paid enough to make a living with benefits and retirement so that when playoffs come calling is standardized. You've included the G5 which can afford to step it up.

When I was first becoming a college football fan I lived in Sault Ste Marie, Michigan, and I pulled for Duffy's Spartans. That was very likely well before you were a glint in your mom's eye. I was born in the South and returned there when Mom went home while Dad served in Viet Nam. I just barely missed going myself. So, Muskie I have lived all over the country and other places. I have no dislike of the Big 10 and your fan bases are much like ours, except for the tailgates, but none of us can touch LSU's. Best danged tailgates ever!

Now to your point 6 at large is not my thing. It's ESPN's. They need to tie in more markets to cover those who tuned out permanently via old age and those turned off by politicizing sports. Honestly when you get a second school in the playoffs you get 3 million more and that money is currently divided 16 ways in the SEC. The participant gets 1/8th (2/16ths), the conference office gets 1 share and the other 13 get 1 share each. Oopy Do!

I would have liked 4 conferences of relatively equal strength to achieve that it probably would have had to occur prior to 2011 and probably meant the original or 2.0 version of the PAC 16 coming into being. There’s simply not enough chess pieces on the board to strengthen the PAC 12 and ACC, not with Big 12 powers TAMU, Texas, and Oklahoma all in the SEC.

Your other point where parity might have been achieved would have been for the Big 10 and SEC to pull away some of the duplicate markets and the Northern Wing of the ACC and the 8 team Big 12 merging with an ACC that still had FSU, Clemson, GT, and Miami to anchor an 8-Team East Division of a Big 16, complimenting an Oklahoma and Texas anchored West. This still would have left the PAC 12 smaller and weaker though.
01-19-2022 06:43 PM
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Post: #27
RE: The Next Steps That Greg Sankey, The SEC, and ESPN Should Make
I feel like the ACC is stuck in a tight spot at the moment. Standing firm with the PAC 12 and Big 10 is probably in their own self interest, but if they act in their own self interest, contrary to the will of the Mighty Mouse, Mickey will insure that their best pieces get pried away a decade from now.
01-19-2022 06:47 PM
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Post: #28
RE: The Next Steps That Greg Sankey, The SEC, and ESPN Should Make
Muskie, there was never going to be parity for ACC and PAC. Their attendance averages and viewership numbers simply would not have permitted it, and their athletic contributions lag as well as a group.

They could have helped their markets made access to a playoff easier to guarantee through a set of cooperative moves.

And yes for the sake of markets, stability in playoff participation, and freedom from the NCAA to monetize basketball and baseball we could still do it with some ground rules.

1. We all move to 18. The Big 10 and SEC both have to take a G5 school.

2. The Big takes Notre Dame, Cincinnati, Kansas, Missouri

3. The SEC takes North Carolina, Duke, and South Florida

4. The PAC takes Brigham Young, Iowa State, Kansas State, Texas Christian, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech

5. Baylor, Central Florida, Houston, and West Virginia join Boston College, Clemson, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Louisville, Memphis, Miami, N.C. State, S.M.U., Syracuse, Tulane, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest

That's 72. If Army, Navy and Air Force wanted in then Memphis, Tulane, and Central Florida are out.

The idea is to sculpt access to the playoffs. To let the SEC & B1G grow, grow within parameters, keep them more or less geographically aligned, but not necessarily grow too much in their strengths. ND and Kansas give the Big 10 a national brand in football and basketball. Missouri gives you a companion for Kansas which is AAU and decent in football and usually in hoops. Cincy is your G5 with academics which could hit AAU with grooming and with solid football and hoops. The SEC adds 2 hoops brands, no football brands and a second Florida School in a good location for the SEC, but not an athletic juggernaut. The ACC enhances football and markets. The PAC enhances markets and competitiveness and picks up a time zone to sell.

Perfect? Hell no! Workable? Absolutely.

B1G:

Indiana, Maryland, Notre Dame, Penn State, Purdue, Rutgers

Cincinnati, Illinois, Michigan, Michigan State, Northwestern, Ohio State

Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Wisconsin

SEC:

Duke, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina, South Carolina

Alabama, Auburn, Mississippi State, South Florida, Tennessee, Vanderbilt

Arkansas, Louisiana State, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Texas, Texas A&M

PAC:

Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, Utah, Washington, Washington State

Arizona, Arizona State, California, California Los Angeles, Colorado, Southern Cal

Brigham Young, Iowa State, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Texas Christian, Texas Tech

ACC:

Baylor, Central Florida, Florida State, Miami, Southern Methodist, Tulane

Boston College, Louisville, Memphis, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, West Virginia

Clemson, Georgia Tech, N.C. State, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest


Each Conference has Semi Finals. The number 1 seed plays the 1 at large. The number 2 seed plays number 3. You have the CCG and the 4 champs move on.

Every conference holds interest in each division until the end of the regular season because of the at large entrant. Every Conference Champ Advances.
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2022 07:45 PM by JRsec.)
01-19-2022 07:25 PM
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Statefan Offline
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Post: #29
RE: The Next Steps That Greg Sankey, The SEC, and ESPN Should Make
JR, I cannot see Duke and UNC volunteering to take annual ass whippin's in football in exchange for a check.

I can't see them allowing NC State, VT, UVa, and WF to live in a world where they are competitive in football while UNC and Duke are doormats.

The post UNC and Duke construct for the ACC is not bad but I just can't see that happening.
01-19-2022 10:52 PM
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Post: #30
RE: The Next Steps That Greg Sankey, The SEC, and ESPN Should Make
(01-19-2022 10:52 PM)Statefan Wrote:  JR, I cannot see Duke and UNC volunteering to take annual ass whippin's in football in exchange for a check.

I can't see them allowing NC State, VT, UVa, and WF to live in a world where they are competitive in football while UNC and Duke are doormats.

The post UNC and Duke construct for the ACC is not bad but I just can't see that happening.

I looked at JR's alignment again. While I am sure that UNC wants to continue to play NC State, WF, UVa(I know UVa is to UNC what Auburn is to UGa) and VT, that divisional alignment has some real potential for UNC. I'm talking football power potential. Short term, yes, UNC would be pummeled. But that's only the short term. The long term has UNC taking a page out of Arkansas' book, and being a football power to be reckoned with, IMO. South Carolina is to UNC what Florida is to us Dawg fans. Even the Dawgs and the 'Heels is an ancient SoCon rivalry. Plus, UNC would go from playing one of the least popular teams in Georgia on a regular basis to playing the most popular team in Georgia on a regular basis. That opens up more recruits' eyes to UNC. If Bubba Cunningham and Mack Brown are looking long term at UNC football, the SEC would give them the opportunity to create a powerhouse in the future, IMHO.

We've seen what long term does with UNC football in the ACC. Might it benefit from a change of scenery to the SEC???

I agree with your analysis of Duke though, unless Duke, as you have stated before, really does want to throw in the towel on football.
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2022 11:59 PM by DawgNBama.)
01-19-2022 11:53 PM
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XLance Online
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Post: #31
RE: The Next Steps That Greg Sankey, The SEC, and ESPN Should Make
(01-19-2022 12:21 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-19-2022 12:14 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(01-19-2022 07:49 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(01-17-2022 10:34 AM)XLance Wrote:  Why would the ACC decide to throw in with the other side? After all the ACC is an ESPN conference (owned lock, stock, and barrel) .

If I understand JR's proposal, it would be an opportunity for all teams to come under a single umbrella in terms of TV rights fees, scheduling, etc. In other words, a "level playing field" - that is the attraction. He's right, at least some P5 schools would bite.

My question was WHY would the ACC join with the PAC and B1G .........." to wrest control of the College Football Playoffs from ESPN, blunt the impact of Texas and Oklahoma's move to the SEC"........... when they themselves (the ACC) are an ESPN owned conference?

Yeah, the ACC's current position serves no purpose except to give ESPN a reason to bust you up, and to create a bigger desire for some to be elsewhere. In the end ESPN will pro rata rights to brands they want to keep and the SEC will be the new repository.

I can see them wanting full rights to the B12 and enhancing the value there with some solid ACC schools as well, just for much less than SEC payouts. I see Phillips as a provocateur who ultimately creates critical mass.

I wouldn't think that refusing to adopt a plan to go to 12 playoff games would constitute breach of contract. ESPN might want to break up the ACC for multiple reasons, but as long as the ACC lives up to their contract, ESPN would have no legal reason.
I see the new leadership at ESPN having a hard time understanding how a partnership works, and Phillips is just giving them a reminder.
01-20-2022 05:29 AM
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Post: #32
RE: The Next Steps That Greg Sankey, The SEC, and ESPN Should Make
(01-19-2022 11:53 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(01-19-2022 10:52 PM)Statefan Wrote:  JR, I cannot see Duke and UNC volunteering to take annual ass whippin's in football in exchange for a check.

I can't see them allowing NC State, VT, UVa, and WF to live in a world where they are competitive in football while UNC and Duke are doormats.

The post UNC and Duke construct for the ACC is not bad but I just can't see that happening.

I looked at JR's alignment again. While I am sure that UNC wants to continue to play NC State, WF, UVa(I know UVa is to UNC what Auburn is to UGa) and VT, that divisional alignment has some real potential for UNC. I'm talking football power potential. Short term, yes, UNC would be pummeled. But that's only the short term. The long term has UNC taking a page out of Arkansas' book, and being a football power to be reckoned with, IMO. South Carolina is to UNC what Florida is to us Dawg fans. Even the Dawgs and the 'Heels is an ancient SoCon rivalry. Plus, UNC would go from playing one of the least popular teams in Georgia on a regular basis to playing the most popular team in Georgia on a regular basis. That opens up more recruits' eyes to UNC. If Bubba Cunningham and Mack Brown are looking long term at UNC football, the SEC would give them the opportunity to create a powerhouse in the future, IMHO.

We've seen what long term does with UNC football in the ACC. Might it benefit from a change of scenery to the SEC???

I agree with your analysis of Duke though, unless Duke, as you have stated before, really does want to throw in the towel on football.

How much would really change for Duke football? Right now they get annual ass whippins for a check. Why not keep getting ass whippins for a much bigger check?
01-20-2022 09:27 AM
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Post: #33
RE: The Next Steps That Greg Sankey, The SEC, and ESPN Should Make
(01-19-2022 07:25 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Muskie, there was never going to be parity for ACC and PAC. Their attendance averages and viewership numbers simply would not have permitted it, and their athletic contributions lag as well as a group.

They could have helped their markets made access to a playoff easier to guarantee through a set of cooperative moves.

And yes for the sake of markets, stability in playoff participation, and freedom from the NCAA to monetize basketball and baseball we could still do it with some ground rules.

1. We all move to 18. The Big 10 and SEC both have to take a G5 school.

2. The Big takes Notre Dame, Cincinnati, Kansas, Missouri

3. The SEC takes North Carolina, Duke, and South Florida

4. The PAC takes Brigham Young, Iowa State, Kansas State, Texas Christian, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech

5. Baylor, Central Florida, Houston, and West Virginia join Boston College, Clemson, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Louisville, Memphis, Miami, N.C. State, S.M.U., Syracuse, Tulane, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest

That's 72. If Army, Navy and Air Force wanted in then Memphis, Tulane, and Central Florida are out.

The idea is to sculpt access to the playoffs. To let the SEC & B1G grow, grow within parameters, keep them more or less geographically aligned, but not necessarily grow too much in their strengths. ND and Kansas give the Big 10 a national brand in football and basketball. Missouri gives you a companion for Kansas which is AAU and decent in football and usually in hoops. Cincy is your G5 with academics which could hit AAU with grooming and with solid football and hoops. The SEC adds 2 hoops brands, no football brands and a second Florida School in a good location for the SEC, but not an athletic juggernaut. The ACC enhances football and markets. The PAC enhances markets and competitiveness and picks up a time zone to sell.

Perfect? Hell no! Workable? Absolutely.

B1G:

Indiana, Maryland, Notre Dame, Penn State, Purdue, Rutgers

Cincinnati, Illinois, Michigan, Michigan State, Northwestern, Ohio State

Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Wisconsin

SEC:

Duke, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina, South Carolina

Alabama, Auburn, Mississippi State, Florida State, Tennessee, Vanderbilt

Arkansas, Louisiana State, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Texas, Texas A&M

PAC:

Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, Utah, Washington, Washington State

Arizona, Arizona State, California, California Los Angeles, Colorado, Southern Cal

Brigham Young, Iowa State, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Texas Christian, Texas Tech

ACC:

Baylor, UCF, South Florida, Miami, Southern Methodist, Houston

Boston College, Louisville, Memphis, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, West Virginia

Clemson, Georgia Tech, N.C. State, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest


Each Conference has Semi Finals. The number 1 seed plays the 1 at large. The number 2 seed plays number 3. You have the CCG and the 4 champs move on.

Every conference holds interest in each division until the end of the regular season because of the at large entrant. Every Conference Champ Advances.
01-21-2022 01:12 AM
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XLance Online
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Post: #34
RE: The Next Steps That Greg Sankey, The SEC, and ESPN Should Make
4 X 18 (a little more practical version, although I think it's a few teams too many).

PAC adds: BYU, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, Houston, San Diego State

SEC adds: South Florida, West Virginia

B1G adds: Iowa State, Kansas, Notre Dame, Cincinnati

ACC adds: Central Florida, Texas Christian, Baylor, Tulane
(This post was last modified: 01-21-2022 06:08 AM by XLance.)
01-21-2022 05:49 AM
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Post: #35
RE: The Next Steps That Greg Sankey, The SEC, and ESPN Should Make
(01-21-2022 05:49 AM)XLance Wrote:  4 X 18 (a little more practical version, although I think it's a few teams too many).

PAC adds: BYU, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, Houston, San Diego State

SEC adds: South Florida, West Virginia

B1G adds: Iowa State, Kansas, Notre Dame, Cincinnati

ACC adds: Central Florida, Texas Christian, Baylor, Tulane

The 4 x 18 I presented is a representation of what "could" exist with "cooperation and intentionality."

Of course, what is more likely to happen is that the B1G and SEC will try to take the profitable and large new market additions with deference to national brands.

It is a clear case of greed vs need inasmuch that networks are driving this and conferences are simply repositories for the network's desired product.

If revenue deficits facilitate movement from the ACC ESPN will shelter what they desire to keep most in the SEC, and what else they want to keep in the NB12. It's why I like the odds that the SEC would likely shelter the major hoops brands ESPN wants to keep. In the SEC they get to fund you at rates that will enable your brands to strengthen.

This makes one conference the ultimate prime time property year around. Could that also include FSU and Clemson? Possibly, but not likely. They add too much value as content anchors for a T2 conference construct with other competitive, but less nationally recognized brands.

I do think ESPN pursues 100% of B12 rights because then ESPN controls 2 of the top 3 most viewed markets both of which are located in recruit strong regions.

I list USF frequently not for what they are but what they are likely to become.
01-21-2022 09:54 AM
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