(11-12-2021 11:31 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 11:06 AM)whittx Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 09:23 AM)All4One Wrote:  

(11-11-2021 09:19 AM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  

(11-11-2021 08:31 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Yeah, IMO all the indications seem to be that for whatever reason, the MAC wanted MTSU/WKU as a package deal. They aren't interested in WKU by themselves, or in tandem with anyone else out there.

I suspect that was because for travel purposes they wanted a two-school island in the upper south.

There are some hints that having these two schools as travel partners was stronger for the MAC than either alone. It would also appear that the MAC was not willing to add Western Kentucky without a clear 14th option. It also wasn't willing to add Western Kentucky and tack on Massachusetts in football only to balance the divisions. This is all fairly obvious.

That said, Western Kentucky seems clearly interested in the MAC, and at least some of that affection seems mutual. It would not surprise me at all if Western Kentucky does join the MAC in the next year or two, once the conference settles on how to balance the divisions. No need to rush into that. The MAC has some time to make sure the 14th school really does move the needle. That statement the MAC put out yesterday will cut down on some of the speculation that wasn't helping the process.

I'm speculating here, but some of the most promising options out there for the MAC might need time to ripen or more time for due diligence. If Stony Brook has any interest, for example, that school might need some time to test the waters on a move and see if it can actually make that kind of transition. This is not an FCS powerhouse right now, but it's a great school that could interest the MAC. Or, perhaps the MAC is intrigued by Florida International, but wants more time to really think a scenario like that through. (I doubt the latter, but it is an example of a scenario that might need some time to work through.)

Conference USA grabbed four schools immediately because it had to do that to save the conference by convincing the few members who remained behind that it was viable. That expansion is a true shotgun marriage. (I mean, Jacksonville State. Really?) The MAC isn't under that kind of pressure at all.

Jacksonville State was one of a few FCS teams that had conducted a feasibility study and actually planned to go Division 1-A when a spot opened up in a conference. They also beat Florida State this year, so they aren't completely unknown.

Not just us, they have a SEC scalp as well (Ole Miss).

Recent call-ups vs FBS:

Jacksonville St:
1994: UL Monroe
2000: UL Lafayette
2001: Arkansas St
2010: Mississippi
2013: Georgia St
2020: Florida International
2021: Florida St

James Madison:
1981: East Tennessee St (now FCS)
1982: William & Mary (now FCS)
1982: Virginia
1989: Navy
1990: Navy
2010: Virginia Tech
2015: SMU
2017: East Carolina

Sam Houston St:
2000: UL Lafayette
2001: UL Monroe
2011: New Mexico

And, just for kicks...

North Dakota St:
2006: Ball St
2007: Minnesota
2007: Central Michigan
2010: Kansas
2011: Minnesota
2012: Colorado St
2013: Kansas St
2014: Iowa St
2016: Iowa

If North Alabama moves up? Their last win against an FBS school was agaist Louisiana-Lafayette winning 48-42.

(11-12-2021 11:31 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 11:06 AM)whittx Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 09:23 AM)All4One Wrote:  

(11-11-2021 09:19 AM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  

(11-11-2021 08:31 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Yeah, IMO all the indications seem to be that for whatever reason, the MAC wanted MTSU/WKU as a package deal. They aren't interested in WKU by themselves, or in tandem with anyone else out there.

I suspect that was because for travel purposes they wanted a two-school island in the upper south.

There are some hints that having these two schools as travel partners was stronger for the MAC than either alone. It would also appear that the MAC was not willing to add Western Kentucky without a clear 14th option. It also wasn't willing to add Western Kentucky and tack on Massachusetts in football only to balance the divisions. This is all fairly obvious.

That said, Western Kentucky seems clearly interested in the MAC, and at least some of that affection seems mutual. It would not surprise me at all if Western Kentucky does join the MAC in the next year or two, once the conference settles on how to balance the divisions. No need to rush into that. The MAC has some time to make sure the 14th school really does move the needle. That statement the MAC put out yesterday will cut down on some of the speculation that wasn't helping the process.

I'm speculating here, but some of the most promising options out there for the MAC might need time to ripen or more time for due diligence. If Stony Brook has any interest, for example, that school might need some time to test the waters on a move and see if it can actually make that kind of transition. This is not an FCS powerhouse right now, but it's a great school that could interest the MAC. Or, perhaps the MAC is intrigued by Florida International, but wants more time to really think a scenario like that through. (I doubt the latter, but it is an example of a scenario that might need some time to work through.)

Conference USA grabbed four schools immediately because it had to do that to save the conference by convincing the few members who remained behind that it was viable. That expansion is a true shotgun marriage. (I mean, Jacksonville State. Really?) The MAC isn't under that kind of pressure at all.

Jacksonville State was one of a few FCS teams that had conducted a feasibility study and actually planned to go Division 1-A when a spot opened up in a conference. They also beat Florida State this year, so they aren't completely unknown.

Not just us, they have a SEC scalp as well (Ole Miss).

Recent call-ups vs FBS:

Jacksonville St:
1994: UL Monroe
2000: UL Lafayette
2001: Arkansas St
2010: Mississippi
2013: Georgia St
2020: Florida International
2021: Florida St

James Madison:
1981: East Tennessee St (now FCS)
1982: William & Mary (now FCS)
1982: Virginia
1989: Navy
1990: Navy
2010: Virginia Tech
2015: SMU
2017: East Carolina

Sam Houston St:
2000: UL Lafayette
2001: UL Monroe
2011: New Mexico

And, just for kicks...

North Dakota St:
2006: Ball St
2007: Minnesota
2007: Central Michigan
2010: Kansas
2011: Minnesota
2012: Colorado St
2013: Kansas St
2014: Iowa St
2016: Iowa

We look better against the others in this stat than we have in the FCS playoffs.

(11-12-2021 05:03 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 12:48 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  Maybe it's just me, but maybe, just maybe the MAC is thinking about giving UMass a second chance, since WKU is interested, but MTSU is off the table. I know that the A10 is at least perceived better than the MAC, but as we all know that could change in a hurry. Does UMass have many alumni in Boston??? I'm pretty sure that distance between Amherst and Boston is at least comparable to the distance between Athens and Atlanta, if not more so. But, getting that Boston tv market is key, IMHO.

And yes, I am saying this knowing full well that the Minutemen would and probably are competing with the Patriots and the BC Eagles for fans in Boston. If the Minutemen could get a good rivalry with Boston College going, it could be like Georgia vs Georgia Tech in Massachusetts!! Shoot, maybe they can get one going with Syracuse as well and they could be like an "Auburn" or a "Florida" for UMass.

D1 is at a point to be like 4 D1 in the future. A10 is a none football conference which would put them down at 1AAAA for all sports. UMASS could be forced to drop their football down. Same with Army, Navy and UConn.

I hope that is not true for the future, but I will concede that it is indeed a possibility, and a very sad at that. However, my scenario has UMass as an all sports member of the MAC. Getting off topic here, but I used to be biased against non-football schools like you, David St, but being around Big East posters a lot gradually changed my opinion, and I also realized that I myself graduated from a non-football school, and I enjoyed and loved my school!!! My dream is for the University of Montevallo, my alma mater, to be in a division 1 conference and going toe to toe with Georgetown, Butler, etc. in basketball, and LSU, Troy, and the UCSB Gauchos in baseball, and getting to see it all on CBS, Fox, and/or yes, even the evil empire, E$PN. I want my son to be able to watch that and say, "Dad, isn't that where you went to school??" That is my dream.

(11-12-2021 09:23 AM)All4One Wrote:  Jacksonville State was one of a few FCS teams that had conducted a feasibility study and actually planned to go Division 1-A when a spot opened up in a conference. They also beat Florida State this year, so they aren't completely unknown.

I didn't know that about Jacksonville State, or that it had wins over FBS schools. I just knew it was a fairly small university.

(11-13-2021 12:13 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 05:03 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 12:48 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  Maybe it's just me, but maybe, just maybe the MAC is thinking about giving UMass a second chance, since WKU is interested, but MTSU is off the table. I know that the A10 is at least perceived better than the MAC, but as we all know that could change in a hurry. Does UMass have many alumni in Boston??? I'm pretty sure that distance between Amherst and Boston is at least comparable to the distance between Athens and Atlanta, if not more so. But, getting that Boston tv market is key, IMHO.

And yes, I am saying this knowing full well that the Minutemen would and probably are competing with the Patriots and the BC Eagles for fans in Boston. If the Minutemen could get a good rivalry with Boston College going, it could be like Georgia vs Georgia Tech in Massachusetts!! Shoot, maybe they can get one going with Syracuse as well and they could be like an "Auburn" or a "Florida" for UMass.

D1 is at a point to be like 4 D1 in the future. A10 is a none football conference which would put them down at 1AAAA for all sports. UMASS could be forced to drop their football down. Same with Army, Navy and UConn.

I hope that is not true for the future, but I will concede that it is indeed a possibility, and a very sad at that. However, my scenario has UMass as an all sports member of the MAC. Getting off topic here, but I used to be biased against non-football schools like you, David St, but being around Big East posters a lot gradually changed my opinion, and I also realized that I myself graduated from a non-football school, and I enjoyed and loved my school!!! My dream is for the University of Montevallo, my alma mater, to be in a division 1 conference and going toe to toe with Georgetown, Butler, etc. in basketball, and LSU, Troy, and the UCSB Gauchos in baseball, and getting to see it all on CBS, Fox, and/or yes, even the evil empire, E$PN. I want my son to be able to watch that and say, "Dad, isn't that where you went to school??" That is my dream.

David St, what was the last major state flagship to drop football? What a clueless post, jeez I mean c’mon dude do a little actual research outside of listening to D2 podcasts. Programs don’t spend millions to upgrade their facilities and drop a major sport.

Also, UMass should probably revisit the MAC all sports possibility, their basketball program seems to be hitting a low point anyway.

(11-12-2021 12:48 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  Maybe it's just me, but maybe, just maybe the MAC is thinking about giving UMass a second chance, since WKU is interested, but MTSU is off the table. I know that the A10 is at least perceived better than the MAC, but as we all know that could change in a hurry.

UMass' decision isn't based on perception.

1. If you don't perceive A-10 basketball as superior to the MAC, you're just wrong. Since the start of the 1999-2000 season, 21 tournaments:
MAC: 0 at-large bids, 11 NCAA wins. A-10: 37 at-larges, 47 wins in that span. Since Temple/Xavier left the A-10, it's 15 at-larges in 7 tournaments, 11 wins vs 0/3 for the MAC.

2. The A-10 revenue share makes Indy FB vs full-MAC an even financial situation if UMass doesn't make NCAA basketball tournaments, and a more lucrative one if they do make NCAA basketball tournaments in the A-10.


3. UMass to Full MAC would be a university choice about who they are and what their vision is, not about which league is better. It's a policy/value shift.

You're either a basketball-first, overall athletics department, who just tries their best at FBS; or you're a football-first school and every other sport should just try their best.

I don't know the right choice for UMass, but it's clear they need to pick a lane, as hockey is their best sport, which is a lower revenue sport than MBB/FB.

They could be better off long-term in the MAC, as WKU and UMass could elevate the MAC to a higher status in hoops, making them multi-bid league, giving them the power to change the MAC revenue share, make their FBS program relevant, and the NEXT MAC TV deal could make it far more lucrative than staying in the A-10.

(11-12-2021 12:48 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I know that the A10 is at least perceived better than the MAC, but as we all know that could change in a hurry.

The A10 and MAC have a Mt Everest-sized disparity in bids, budgets, and attendance.

At-large bids since 2000:
A10 - 41
MAC - 0

(11-13-2021 02:50 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 12:48 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  Maybe it's just me, but maybe, just maybe the MAC is thinking about giving UMass a second chance, since WKU is interested, but MTSU is off the table. I know that the A10 is at least perceived better than the MAC, but as we all know that could change in a hurry.

UMass' decision isn't based on perception.

1. If you don't perceive A-10 basketball as superior to the MAC, you're just wrong. Since the start of the 1999-2000 season, 21 tournaments:
MAC: 0 at-large bids, 11 NCAA wins. A-10: 37 at-larges, 47 wins in that span. Since Temple/Xavier left the A-10, it's 15 at-larges in 7 tournaments, 11 wins vs 0/3 for the MAC.

2. The A-10 revenue share makes Indy FB vs full-MAC an even financial situation if UMass doesn't make NCAA basketball tournaments, and a more lucrative one if they do make NCAA basketball tournaments in the A-10.

The A10 NCAA tournament money is heavily skewed toward the programs that earned the bids.

Quote:The Atlantic 10, the conference VCU plays in, has a different split. The league’s revenue sharing structure sets aside 25 percent of its basketball-related revenues to divide equally between all of its schools, regardless of performance. The remaining three-fourths are distributed to member teams based on their individual tournament performance, Cupps said.

“That’s pretty aggressive,” Cupps said of the 75-25 model, and the chance at a greater reward for individual tournament success was one reason VCU jumped from the Colonial Athletic Association to the Atlantic 10 two years ago.

https://richmondbizsense.com/2014/03/21/...get-fuzzy/

UMass is not seeing very much money from those A10 wins

Going by 2020 per unit payout ($279,334) and taking the average units collected by the A10 since 2000 at 4 (80 units earned in 21 seasons) the projected payout is as follows:

4x $279,334 = $1,117,336

Then 25% of that money goes to the 12 teams that didn't participate in the NCAAs.

$279,334 per year.

Divided by 12: $23,774.

UMass then over the next 5 years is looking at making about 24k in revenue sharing in the NCAA tournament by being a member of A10 in men's basketball.

The MAC also has an unequal split of its NCAA tournament revenue but its not as aggressive as how the A10 has it. They set it up in 2012 to incentivize more investment in men's basketball.

30% to team that wins
30% (divided 1-12 based on conference performance)
40% (split in 12 equal shares)

For the MAC to go to 14 with WKU/UMass and assuming it could produce 2 additional units for the conference over 6 years @ $285,000 over that time frame. 2 units that would be earned by WKU.

Total payout from 2 units: $3,420,000
30% to WKU 1,026,000
30% The 14th place team earns (1/105) $9,771
40% (split in 14 equal shares) $97,714

Total over 6 years: $107,486 for 14th place MAC school.
Total per year: $17,914

For the MAC to add WKU and have them win a couple of games in the NCAA tournament would be worth at least 18k. The base payout would be 54k which is double the distribution from what UMass is getting from the A10.

From the perspective of the existing teams, currently the MAC has 9 units.

Total payout from 9 units: $15,390,000
30% to KSU/Ohio/UB 4,671,000
30% The 12th place team earns (1/78) $59,192
40% (split in 12 equal shares) $513,000

Total over 6 years: $572,192 for 12th place MAC school
Total per year: $95,365

The worst school in the MAC is getting $95k in tourney money while UMass a mid range school A10 school is only making $24k because of the way the tourney money is split.

If WKU came to the MAC and bumped the shares up to 11:

Total payout from 11 units: $18,810,000
30% to KSU/Ohio/UB/WKU 5,643,000
30% The 14th place team earns (1/105) $53,743
40% (split in 14 equal shares) $537,429

Total over 6 years: $591,172 for 14th place MAC school
Total per year: $98,529

The MAC would need WKU/UMass to bring in 2 additional units over 6 years for everyone to make money, which there is risk they don't deliver. The split for MAC basketball is more favorable in a 12 school model.

10 schools would be pushing it as the most you could have is an 18 game basketball schedule, hardly enough to have divisions in FB and enough for in Olympic sports. The average size of a D1 conference is 11.43 including reclassifying members.

(11-13-2021 03:03 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 12:48 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I know that the A10 is at least perceived better than the MAC, but as we all know that could change in a hurry.

The A10 and MAC have a Mt Everest-sized disparity in bids, budgets, and attendance.

At-large bids since 2000:
A10 - 41
MAC - 0

half the attendance difference is simply due to Dayton. There are a number of weak attendance schools in A10. You will have to show your numbers of budgets.

(11-13-2021 06:55 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(11-13-2021 03:03 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 12:48 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I know that the A10 is at least perceived better than the MAC, but as we all know that could change in a hurry.

The A10 and MAC have a Mt Everest-sized disparity in bids, budgets, and attendance.

At-large bids since 2000:
A10 - 41
MAC - 0

half the attendance difference is simply due to Dayton. There are a number of weak attendance schools in A10. You will have to show your numbers of budgets.

All 14 A10 members rank top-135 nationally for MBB budgets.

The MAC ranges from 146th to 259th.

As for attendance, non-Dayton A10 schools average 4151. MAC averages 2775.

(11-13-2021 07:10 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(11-13-2021 06:55 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(11-13-2021 03:03 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 12:48 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I know that the A10 is at least perceived better than the MAC, but as we all know that could change in a hurry.

The A10 and MAC have a Mt Everest-sized disparity in bids, budgets, and attendance.

At-large bids since 2000:
A10 - 41
MAC - 0

half the attendance difference is simply due to Dayton. There are a number of weak attendance schools in A10. You will have to show your numbers of budgets.

All 14 A10 members rank top-135 nationally for MBB budgets.

The MAC ranges from 146th to 259th.

As for attendance, non-Dayton A10 schools average 4151. MAC averages 2775.

4,151 is not a high attendance average. That is close to what the MAC averaged back around the start of the century.

Budgets are bigger but the costs at many A10 are bigger from travel to scholarship costs. Budget though is hardly an important metric in basketball as a MAC program can easily increase their budget as their program improves.

A10 has far more success in than the MAC in the tourney but all of that money is going to those who earn the units. The A10 schedule is also stacked to enhance the upper division teams vs. lower division teams in the NET rankings.

A10 is much better than the MAC if you have a regular Top 40 program like Dayton or VCU. For the lower tier programs they would be better dropping to the Colonial where they could be more competitive.

Ohio, Buffalo, KSU and Akron have been winning all the bids out of the MAC for the last couple of decades so for them the MAC might as well be a 3 bid conference since they have a 1/4 chance of making the dance every year. Those programs are normally Top 80 and not quite good enough to win the A10 so the MAC is a right sizing kind of fit.

(11-13-2021 10:49 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(11-13-2021 12:13 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 05:03 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 12:48 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  Maybe it's just me, but maybe, just maybe the MAC is thinking about giving UMass a second chance, since WKU is interested, but MTSU is off the table. I know that the A10 is at least perceived better than the MAC, but as we all know that could change in a hurry. Does UMass have many alumni in Boston??? I'm pretty sure that distance between Amherst and Boston is at least comparable to the distance between Athens and Atlanta, if not more so. But, getting that Boston tv market is key, IMHO.

And yes, I am saying this knowing full well that the Minutemen would and probably are competing with the Patriots and the BC Eagles for fans in Boston. If the Minutemen could get a good rivalry with Boston College going, it could be like Georgia vs Georgia Tech in Massachusetts!! Shoot, maybe they can get one going with Syracuse as well and they could be like an "Auburn" or a "Florida" for UMass.

D1 is at a point to be like 4 D1 in the future. A10 is a none football conference which would put them down at 1AAAA for all sports. UMASS could be forced to drop their football down. Same with Army, Navy and UConn.

I hope that is not true for the future, but I will concede that it is indeed a possibility, and a very sad at that. However, my scenario has UMass as an all sports member of the MAC. Getting off topic here, but I used to be biased against non-football schools like you, David St, but being around Big East posters a lot gradually changed my opinion, and I also realized that I myself graduated from a non-football school, and I enjoyed and loved my school!!! My dream is for the University of Montevallo, my alma mater, to be in a division 1 conference and going toe to toe with Georgetown, Butler, etc. in basketball, and LSU, Troy, and the UCSB Gauchos in baseball, and getting to see it all on CBS, Fox, and/or yes, even the evil empire, E$PN. I want my son to be able to watch that and say, "Dad, isn't that where you went to school??" That is my dream.

David St, what was the last major state flagship to drop football? What a clueless post, jeez I mean c’mon dude do a little actual research outside of listening to D2 podcasts. Programs don’t spend millions to upgrade their facilities and drop a major sport.

Also, UMass should probably revisit the MAC all sports possibility, their basketball program seems to be hitting a low point anyway.

I am not David St!!!. He graduated from Arkansas Tech; I graduated from the University of Montevallo, in the state of Alabama!!! He is a liberal; I am a conservative. There is a world of difference between us!!!

(11-13-2021 08:05 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(11-13-2021 07:10 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(11-13-2021 06:55 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(11-13-2021 03:03 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 12:48 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I know that the A10 is at least perceived better than the MAC, but as we all know that could change in a hurry.

The A10 and MAC have a Mt Everest-sized disparity in bids, budgets, and attendance.

At-large bids since 2000:
A10 - 41
MAC - 0

half the attendance difference is simply due to Dayton. There are a number of weak attendance schools in A10. You will have to show your numbers of budgets.

All 14 A10 members rank top-135 nationally for MBB budgets.

The MAC ranges from 146th to 259th.

As for attendance, non-Dayton A10 schools average 4151. MAC averages 2775.

4,151 is not a high attendance average. That is close to what the MAC averaged back around the start of the century.

Budgets are bigger but the costs at many A10 are bigger from travel to scholarship costs. Budget though is hardly an important metric in basketball as a MAC program can easily increase their budget as their program improves.

A10 has far more success in than the MAC in the tourney but all of that money is going to those who earn the units. The A10 schedule is also stacked to enhance the upper division teams vs. lower division teams in the NET rankings.

A10 is much better than the MAC if you have a regular Top 40 program like Dayton or VCU. For the lower tier programs they would be better dropping to the Colonial where they could be more competitive.

Ohio, Buffalo, KSU and Akron have been winning all the bids out of the MAC for the last couple of decades so for them the MAC might as well be a 3 bid conference since they have a 1/4 chance of making the dance every year. Those programs are normally Top 80 and not quite good enough to win the A10 so the MAC is a right sizing kind of fit.

Dayton averaged about 13k in 2019 as I remember from looking at it yesterday, so the A10 average would e about 4800 with Dayton. There are a handful of A10 schools way above the A10 average and a number of A10 schools who play in gyms that would make an Indiana high school embarrassed.

(11-13-2021 06:11 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  The MAC also has an unequal split of its NCAA tournament revenue but its not as aggressive as how the A10 has it. They set it up in 2012 to incentivize more investment in men's basketball.

30% to team that wins
30% (divided 1-12 based on conference performance)
40% (split in 12 equal shares)

OOOH. Great intel. Thanks for enlightening me. This stuff is so hard to find.

That's some complex math.

But 40% divided by 14 schools in an expanded MAC is 2.85% of a unit. I'd assume if you're not getting the bid, that 30% share by performance is quite low.

The A-10 average number of units has been 2 per year minimum, as high as 10 units. And the 1.78% of that which UMass missing the dance gets is probably still higher when they miss the tournament vs the MAC.


Like I said, the full MAC vs stay A10 call for UMass isn't about which league is better, or the difference in prize money, media rights, or travel expenses. All things considered the cost/revenue is probably like a five-digit difference max one way vs the other.

It's 100% about the philosophy of their athletics department.

Personally, I think they should pick one of two routes and go all-in on that route: Be a basketball school in the A-10 that has FBS football; or be a football school with MAC sports. But I don't know that they're really doing either right now.

I wonder why schools like UMass, Fordham, St. Bonaventure... even have some of the sports they have. Specifically baseball/softball, when it's snowing the first half of the season and the best they can hope for is winning the auto bid and getting spanked in the NCAA tourney 0-2.

College baseball is a 56 game season, but UMass has cracked 50 games in a season only 4 times since 1953.

There's a whole bunch of A-10 schools who should trim athletics a little bit, and devote those resources into basketball/football, get better and then if that leads to significantly more money.... add sports back.

(11-14-2021 06:12 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(11-13-2021 10:49 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(11-13-2021 12:13 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 05:03 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 12:48 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  Maybe it's just me, but maybe, just maybe the MAC is thinking about giving UMass a second chance, since WKU is interested, but MTSU is off the table. I know that the A10 is at least perceived better than the MAC, but as we all know that could change in a hurry. Does UMass have many alumni in Boston??? I'm pretty sure that distance between Amherst and Boston is at least comparable to the distance between Athens and Atlanta, if not more so. But, getting that Boston tv market is key, IMHO.

And yes, I am saying this knowing full well that the Minutemen would and probably are competing with the Patriots and the BC Eagles for fans in Boston. If the Minutemen could get a good rivalry with Boston College going, it could be like Georgia vs Georgia Tech in Massachusetts!! Shoot, maybe they can get one going with Syracuse as well and they could be like an "Auburn" or a "Florida" for UMass.

D1 is at a point to be like 4 D1 in the future. A10 is a none football conference which would put them down at 1AAAA for all sports. UMASS could be forced to drop their football down. Same with Army, Navy and UConn.

I hope that is not true for the future, but I will concede that it is indeed a possibility, and a very sad at that. However, my scenario has UMass as an all sports member of the MAC. Getting off topic here, but I used to be biased against non-football schools like you, David St, but being around Big East posters a lot gradually changed my opinion, and I also realized that I myself graduated from a non-football school, and I enjoyed and loved my school!!! My dream is for the University of Montevallo, my alma mater, to be in a division 1 conference and going toe to toe with Georgetown, Butler, etc. in basketball, and LSU, Troy, and the UCSB Gauchos in baseball, and getting to see it all on CBS, Fox, and/or yes, even the evil empire, E$PN. I want my son to be able to watch that and say, "Dad, isn't that where you went to school??" That is my dream.

David St, what was the last major state flagship to drop football? What a clueless post, jeez I mean c’mon dude do a little actual research outside of listening to D2 podcasts. Programs don’t spend millions to upgrade their facilities and drop a major sport.

Also, UMass should probably revisit the MAC all sports possibility, their basketball program seems to be hitting a low point anyway.

I am not David St!!!. He graduated from Arkansas Tech; I graduated from the University of Montevallo, in the state of Alabama!!! He is a liberal; I am a conservative. There is a world of difference between us!!!

Sorry, I didn’t mean for you to take it that way. I was being lazy and addressed him in the first paragraph and you in the second because the convo was rolling.

Would somebody be kind enough to tell him that? He sent me a message and then ignored me.

(11-15-2021 04:03 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(11-13-2021 06:11 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  The MAC also has an unequal split of its NCAA tournament revenue but its not as aggressive as how the A10 has it. They set it up in 2012 to incentivize more investment in men's basketball.

30% to team that wins
30% (divided 1-12 based on conference performance)
40% (split in 12 equal shares)

OOOH. Great intel. Thanks for enlightening me. This stuff is so hard to find.

That's some complex math.

But 40% divided by 14 schools in an expanded MAC is 2.85% of a unit. I'd assume if you're not getting the bid, that 30% share by performance is quite low.

The A-10 average number of units has been 2 per year minimum, as high as 10 units. And the 1.78% of that which UMass missing the dance gets is probably still higher when they miss the tournament vs the MAC.


Like I said, the full MAC vs stay A10 call for UMass isn't about which league is better, or the difference in prize money, media rights, or travel expenses. All things considered the cost/revenue is probably like a five-digit difference max one way vs the other.

It's 100% about the philosophy of their athletics department.

Personally, I think they should pick one of two routes and go all-in on that route: Be a basketball school in the A-10 that has FBS football; or be a football school with MAC sports. But I don't know that they're really doing either right now.

The MAC at the moment has 9 rolling tournament credits so divided by 6 that is 1.5 a year.

Based on historical numbers I'm assuming 4 a year (24 rolling tournament credits) in the A10. However 75% of the money goes to schools in the NCAAs and UMass isn't one of them. What is left over is less than 20k a year.

The worst MAC school gets a 15k a year, even with far less units because the money split is so much better.

As far as philosophy, Ohio and Akron pay their men's basketball coach more than their FB coach. They are taking that FB money and plowing it into basketball. UMass could do the same in the MAC.

But I can see the reverse argument where Ohio, Akron and Buffalo might want to keep things at 12 and split the pie less ways. In a 12 team conference for the middle portion of the revenue pie the regular season MAC champion gets 12/78 (15.4%) of that money where as in a 14 team model it gets 14/105 (13.3%). Western Kentucky would have to pull in an additional 2 units per 6 years over what the MAC is earning to justify the split.

(11-15-2021 07:39 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(11-14-2021 06:12 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(11-13-2021 10:49 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(11-13-2021 12:13 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 05:03 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  D1 is at a point to be like 4 D1 in the future. A10 is a none football conference which would put them down at 1AAAA for all sports. UMASS could be forced to drop their football down. Same with Army, Navy and UConn.

I hope that is not true for the future, but I will concede that it is indeed a possibility, and a very sad at that. However, my scenario has UMass as an all sports member of the MAC. Getting off topic here, but I used to be biased against non-football schools like you, David St, but being around Big East posters a lot gradually changed my opinion, and I also realized that I myself graduated from a non-football school, and I enjoyed and loved my school!!! My dream is for the University of Montevallo, my alma mater, to be in a division 1 conference and going toe to toe with Georgetown, Butler, etc. in basketball, and LSU, Troy, and the UCSB Gauchos in baseball, and getting to see it all on CBS, Fox, and/or yes, even the evil empire, E$PN. I want my son to be able to watch that and say, "Dad, isn't that where you went to school??" That is my dream.

David St, what was the last major state flagship to drop football? What a clueless post, jeez I mean c’mon dude do a little actual research outside of listening to D2 podcasts. Programs don’t spend millions to upgrade their facilities and drop a major sport.

Also, UMass should probably revisit the MAC all sports possibility, their basketball program seems to be hitting a low point anyway.

I am not David St!!!. He graduated from Arkansas Tech; I graduated from the University of Montevallo, in the state of Alabama!!! He is a liberal; I am a conservative. There is a world of difference between us!!!

Sorry, I didn’t mean for you to take it that way. I was being lazy and addressed him in the first paragraph and you in the second because the convo was rolling.

Would somebody be kind enough to tell him that? He sent me a message and then ignored me.

If someone mistook me for DavidSt, I'd hang onto it as long as possible and take it as the biggest compliment in the world.

(11-15-2021 10:04 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  The MAC at the moment has 9 rolling tournament credits so divided by 6 that is 1.5 a year.

Based on historical numbers I'm assuming 4 a year (24 rolling tournament credits) in the A10. However 75% of the money goes to schools in the NCAAs and UMass isn't one of them. What is left over is less than 20k a year.

The worst MAC school gets a 15k a year, even with far less units because the money split is so much better.

Right, but ADs don't make decisions based on "if we suck," they make decisions based on the program they want to be.

I think they're choosing the third path right now: "Overall Athletics Department," which to me is madness.

No one cares if you have an "across the board" good athletics program if there's no MBB/FB success. If you're 7th in hoops, football is 2-10, and you finish top five in all the other sports in your conference and win the commissioner's trophy, you're not bettering your athletics department.

You're far better off using basketball or football to make the name for yourself and the money that comes will elevate the rest of the programs.

(11-15-2021 07:39 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(11-14-2021 06:12 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(11-13-2021 10:49 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(11-13-2021 12:13 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 05:03 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  D1 is at a point to be like 4 D1 in the future. A10 is a none football conference which would put them down at 1AAAA for all sports. UMASS could be forced to drop their football down. Same with Army, Navy and UConn.

I hope that is not true for the future, but I will concede that it is indeed a possibility, and a very sad at that. However, my scenario has UMass as an all sports member of the MAC. Getting off topic here, but I used to be biased against non-football schools like you, David St, but being around Big East posters a lot gradually changed my opinion, and I also realized that I myself graduated from a non-football school, and I enjoyed and loved my school!!! My dream is for the University of Montevallo, my alma mater, to be in a division 1 conference and going toe to toe with Georgetown, Butler, etc. in basketball, and LSU, Troy, and the UCSB Gauchos in baseball, and getting to see it all on CBS, Fox, and/or yes, even the evil empire, E$PN. I want my son to be able to watch that and say, "Dad, isn't that where you went to school??" That is my dream.

David St, what was the last major state flagship to drop football? What a clueless post, jeez I mean c’mon dude do a little actual research outside of listening to D2 podcasts. Programs don’t spend millions to upgrade their facilities and drop a major sport.

Also, UMass should probably revisit the MAC all sports possibility, their basketball program seems to be hitting a low point anyway.

I am not David St!!!. He graduated from Arkansas Tech; I graduated from the University of Montevallo, in the state of Alabama!!! He is a liberal; I am a conservative. There is a world of difference between us!!!

Sorry, I didn’t mean for you to take it that way. I was being lazy and addressed him in the first paragraph and you in the second because the convo was rolling.

Would somebody be kind enough to tell him that? He sent me a message and then ignored me.

Got the message.