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(09-15-2021 09:00 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  While I am definitely in favor of quality over quantity, I can see it from the administration's point. If we were to lower the size of our freshman class by 10-15 percent to increase our selectivity, reputation and rankings, we would undoubtedly be cutting those that are paying full tuition or close to it. That's a big hole in the budget for a few years until we can build the classes back up in size with higher quality applicants.

Bolded, I agree. These aren't easy decisions for a university administration as more students mean a substantial bump in revenue.

To understand the root cause of UC's change in admissions selection profile, I suppose we'd need to survey incoming students over the last 15 years on why they chose UC, especially in-state students. Early on, some gains were attributed to being more selective which seemed counterintuitive. In fact, many prospective students value their school of choice being at least somewhat selective. For others was it our campus, the urban setting, our stature as the second largest in the state, our ranked football team and sense of place created by the energy communicated through national TV from the student section at Nippert?

I don't know; I hope someone at UC does because selectivity matters to academicians and those are the folks who influence measures of prestige that U.S. News banks on. It's fair to say that any other G5 state universities' leaders would walk through broken glass to be a member of the Big 12. UC leadership better leverage the potential visibility that platform provides way beyond athletics. The "crowd" a university is associated with matters and Ohio now has two P5 schools providing separation from the rest of the pack.

(09-15-2021 06:18 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(09-14-2021 10:03 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  Ha, I found the scorecard, but it’s saying the target was 130:

https://www.uc.edu/president25/reportcar...oal3-1.htm

I *know* I saw 100 somewhere.

Maybe it was Williams? I feel like he had some Master Plan with a number in it too.

I liked the Zimpher score card. It was presented to the board and identified key metrics and how UC was progressing towards them. I’m not really sure what UC is trying to accomplish these days, much less how successful they are at achieving these goals - whatever they might be.

"Our plans miscarry because they have no aim. When a man does not know what harbor he is making for, no wind is the right wind."
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Roman statesman and writer

Since enrollment has been part of the discussion, I figured I'd share the reporting tool for ODE. You guys can see that UC isn't experiencing the same thing that EVERY other state school is right now (precipitous enrollment decline), and that's a GOOD thing, as it improves the financial health of the University. You'll also be able to see just where our enrollment is exploding...and it comes back to the discussion of institutional organization and how it affects rankings for us differently than some other institutions (since Clermont and Blue Ash are Colleges within our University instead of supported regional campuses that grant their own degrees like OSU-Mansfield or Miami-Harrison).

https://www.ohiohighered.org/data-reports/enrollment

(09-16-2021 04:04 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Since enrollment has been part of the discussion, I figured I'd share the reporting tool for ODE. You guys can see that UC isn't experiencing the same thing that EVERY other state school is right now (precipitous enrollment decline), and that's a GOOD thing, as it improves the financial health of the University. You'll also be able to see just where our enrollment is exploding...and it comes back to the discussion of institutional organization and how it affects rankings for us differently than some other institutions (since Clermont and Blue Ash are Colleges within our University instead of supported regional campuses that grant their own degrees like OSU-Mansfield or Miami-Harrison).

https://www.ohiohighered.org/data-reports/enrollment

Good lord Akron went from 29,500 students in 2010 to 17,997 in 2020. They’ve nearly shrunk in half.

(09-16-2021 04:04 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Since enrollment has been part of the discussion, I figured I'd share the reporting tool for ODE. You guys can see that UC isn't experiencing the same thing that EVERY other state school is right now (precipitous enrollment decline), and that's a GOOD thing, as it improves the financial health of the University. You'll also be able to see just where our enrollment is exploding...and it comes back to the discussion of institutional organization and how it affects rankings for us differently than some other institutions (since Clermont and Blue Ash are Colleges within our University instead of supported regional campuses that grant their own degrees like OSU-Mansfield or Miami-Harrison).

https://www.ohiohighered.org/data-reports/enrollment

When i checked the fact book, both clermont and blue ash have as enrollment declines.

(09-16-2021 04:21 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 04:04 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Since enrollment has been part of the discussion, I figured I'd share the reporting tool for ODE. You guys can see that UC isn't experiencing the same thing that EVERY other state school is right now (precipitous enrollment decline), and that's a GOOD thing, as it improves the financial health of the University. You'll also be able to see just where our enrollment is exploding...and it comes back to the discussion of institutional organization and how it affects rankings for us differently than some other institutions (since Clermont and Blue Ash are Colleges within our University instead of supported regional campuses that grant their own degrees like OSU-Mansfield or Miami-Harrison).

https://www.ohiohighered.org/data-reports/enrollment

Good lord Akron went from 29,500 students in 2010 to 17,997 in 2020. They’ve nearly shrunk in half.

Wright State has significant issues as well. Toledo and Youngstown are on a slide.

(09-16-2021 04:31 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 04:21 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 04:04 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Since enrollment has been part of the discussion, I figured I'd share the reporting tool for ODE. You guys can see that UC isn't experiencing the same thing that EVERY other state school is right now (precipitous enrollment decline), and that's a GOOD thing, as it improves the financial health of the University. You'll also be able to see just where our enrollment is exploding...and it comes back to the discussion of institutional organization and how it affects rankings for us differently than some other institutions (since Clermont and Blue Ash are Colleges within our University instead of supported regional campuses that grant their own degrees like OSU-Mansfield or Miami-Harrison).

https://www.ohiohighered.org/data-reports/enrollment

Good lord Akron went from 29,500 students in 2010 to 17,997 in 2020. They’ve nearly shrunk in half.

Wright State has significant issues as well. Toledo and Youngstown are on a slide.

Now you know why those are the two that 1985 and I mention first when we talk about issues in the state.

(09-16-2021 04:04 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Since enrollment has been part of the discussion, I figured I'd share the reporting tool for ODE. You guys can see that UC isn't experiencing the same thing that EVERY other state school is right now (precipitous enrollment decline), and that's a GOOD thing, as it improves the financial health of the University. You'll also be able to see just where our enrollment is exploding...and it comes back to the discussion of institutional organization and how it affects rankings for us differently than some other institutions (since Clermont and Blue Ash are Colleges within our University instead of supported regional campuses that grant their own degrees like OSU-Mansfield or Miami-Harrison).

https://www.ohiohighered.org/data-reports/enrollment

Where is Miami-Harrison?

(09-16-2021 04:21 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 04:04 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Since enrollment has been part of the discussion, I figured I'd share the reporting tool for ODE. You guys can see that UC isn't experiencing the same thing that EVERY other state school is right now (precipitous enrollment decline), and that's a GOOD thing, as it improves the financial health of the University. You'll also be able to see just where our enrollment is exploding...and it comes back to the discussion of institutional organization and how it affects rankings for us differently than some other institutions (since Clermont and Blue Ash are Colleges within our University instead of supported regional campuses that grant their own degrees like OSU-Mansfield or Miami-Harrison).

https://www.ohiohighered.org/data-reports/enrollment

Good lord Akron went from 29,500 students in 2010 to 17,997 in 2020. They’ve nearly shrunk in half.

Which, in a saner alternative universe, people aren't even talking about because the state didn't bail out a bankrupt municipal university and fold it into the state system as a stand-alone four-year campus. In that universe, a non-imbecilic Governor allowed it to fail and then turned it into either a two-year community city-college or a branch campus of Kent State.

(09-16-2021 08:01 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 04:31 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 04:21 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 04:04 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Since enrollment has been part of the discussion, I figured I'd share the reporting tool for ODE. You guys can see that UC isn't experiencing the same thing that EVERY other state school is right now (precipitous enrollment decline), and that's a GOOD thing, as it improves the financial health of the University. You'll also be able to see just where our enrollment is exploding...and it comes back to the discussion of institutional organization and how it affects rankings for us differently than some other institutions (since Clermont and Blue Ash are Colleges within our University instead of supported regional campuses that grant their own degrees like OSU-Mansfield or Miami-Harrison).

https://www.ohiohighered.org/data-reports/enrollment

Good lord Akron went from 29,500 students in 2010 to 17,997 in 2020. They’ve nearly shrunk in half.

Wright State has significant issues as well. Toledo and Youngstown are on a slide.

Now you know why those are the two that 1985 and I mention first when we talk about issues in the state.

In 2020, the one-year changes were huge:
Wright State was down 10%
Akron was down 9%
Toledo and OU were down 7%
Miami was down 4%

Any idea when 2021 comes out?

When discussing declines in 2020 a few months ago, one of you had hinted that Miami was projected to be way down in 2021.

(09-15-2021 11:32 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  "Our plans miscarry because they have no aim. When a man does not know what harbor he is making for, no wind is the right wind."
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Roman statesman and writer

(09-16-2021 09:02 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 08:01 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 04:31 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 04:21 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 04:04 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Since enrollment has been part of the discussion, I figured I'd share the reporting tool for ODE. You guys can see that UC isn't experiencing the same thing that EVERY other state school is right now (precipitous enrollment decline), and that's a GOOD thing, as it improves the financial health of the University. You'll also be able to see just where our enrollment is exploding...and it comes back to the discussion of institutional organization and how it affects rankings for us differently than some other institutions (since Clermont and Blue Ash are Colleges within our University instead of supported regional campuses that grant their own degrees like OSU-Mansfield or Miami-Harrison).

https://www.ohiohighered.org/data-reports/enrollment

Good lord Akron went from 29,500 students in 2010 to 17,997 in 2020. They’ve nearly shrunk in half.

Wright State has significant issues as well. Toledo and Youngstown are on a slide.

Now you know why those are the two that 1985 and I mention first when we talk about issues in the state.

In 2020, the one-year changes were huge:
Wright State was down 10%
Akron was down 9%
Toledo and OU were down 7%
Miami was down 4%

Any idea when 2021 comes out?

When discussing declines in 2020 a few months ago, one of you had hinted that Miami was projected to be way down in 2021.

Census date varies by institution, it's the 15th day of the derm, but obviously not everyone starts the same date. I can tell you that UT was down 8% (DHS was actually up, but they got killed in International and Transfer this fall) and BGSU was down just about 5% (removing part time eGrad programs they'd be down 14% in total headcount) this year from last year, but the other data won't be compiled until probably around the start of the new calendar year. Could probably get most of it if you search the local papers (they love writing about schools doing poorly), but it'll all end up in the same place in a few months.

(09-16-2021 10:48 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 09:02 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 08:01 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 04:31 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 04:21 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Good lord Akron went from 29,500 students in 2010 to 17,997 in 2020. They’ve nearly shrunk in half.

Wright State has significant issues as well. Toledo and Youngstown are on a slide.

Now you know why those are the two that 1985 and I mention first when we talk about issues in the state.

In 2020, the one-year changes were huge:
Wright State was down 10%
Akron was down 9%
Toledo and OU were down 7%
Miami was down 4%

Any idea when 2021 comes out?

When discussing declines in 2020 a few months ago, one of you had hinted that Miami was projected to be way down in 2021.

Census date varies by institution, it's the 15th day of the derm, but obviously not everyone starts the same date. I can tell you that UT was down 8% (DHS was actually up, but they got killed in International and Transfer this fall) and BGSU was down just about 5% (removing part time eGrad programs they'd be down 14% in total headcount) this year from last year, but the other data won't be compiled until probably around the start of the new calendar year. Could probably get most of it if you search the local papers (they love writing about schools doing poorly), but it'll all end up in the same place in a few months.

Holy crap. Down 14% in one year? Glad I'm not going up for tenure at BG this year.

All told, those MAC numbers make me feel a whole lot better about where my institution (ISU) is at. We're only down 2% since over the past 2 years and we've managed to operate in the black by tens of millions in each of the past four years (including 2020/21) as part of a long-term strategy to pay off debt, build up the endowment, & make us less reliant on state support.

(09-17-2021 05:46 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 10:48 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 09:02 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 08:01 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(09-16-2021 04:31 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  Wright State has significant issues as well. Toledo and Youngstown are on a slide.

Now you know why those are the two that 1985 and I mention first when we talk about issues in the state.

In 2020, the one-year changes were huge:
Wright State was down 10%
Akron was down 9%
Toledo and OU were down 7%
Miami was down 4%

Any idea when 2021 comes out?

When discussing declines in 2020 a few months ago, one of you had hinted that Miami was projected to be way down in 2021.

Census date varies by institution, it's the 15th day of the derm, but obviously not everyone starts the same date. I can tell you that UT was down 8% (DHS was actually up, but they got killed in International and Transfer this fall) and BGSU was down just about 5% (removing part time eGrad programs they'd be down 14% in total headcount) this year from last year, but the other data won't be compiled until probably around the start of the new calendar year. Could probably get most of it if you search the local papers (they love writing about schools doing poorly), but it'll all end up in the same place in a few months.

Holy crap. Down 14% in one year? Glad I'm not going up for tenure at BG this year.

All told, those MAC numbers make me feel a whole lot better about where my institution (ISU) is at. We're only down 2% since over the past 2 years and we've managed to operate in the black by tens of millions in each of the past four years (including 2020/21) as part of a long-term strategy to pay off debt, build up the endowment, & make us less reliant on state support.

Yeah, it's a nightmare scenario for some...I didn't even show the Ball State and NIU numbers, they're even worse. Also, that BGSU value was with caveat, they were only down 4.8% in headcount...14% was taking out the growth in their part time eGrad programs. I was the one that hinted at Miami slide further down based on some condos with people down in Oxford, but I haven't gotten any indication of what their numbers are this year

The enrollment is concerning for me slightly at my institution (UT), but we were able to reinvest $32M back into budgets even with the enrollment decline this year because our new President has been diligent in his more corporate approach to finance (something many of us have been clamoring for for years). The problem is with the institutions that have crazy enrollment decline AND have incompetent leadership (Akron and Wright State).

(09-14-2021 07:52 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(09-13-2021 05:41 PM)colohank Wrote:  Disappointing. No other word for it.

Unless of course you consider that UC was one of only 5 schools in the Great Lakes states to increase total headcount over the past two years...which is a far more specific goal due to a need to increase overall financial flexibility (which would then be used to improve programs). Admin shifted focus from being ranked higher in needless polls to being a more productive institution with a wider reach...judging by their record research dollars and enrollment, I'd say they're doing both of those just fine. By our nature as an institution, we will NEVER be top 100 in USNWR [see my post above for that], I'm far more interested in being as productive as possible in both producing quality alumni worldwide and in developing new and exciting technologies at a far higher rate.

But can’t we do both play the USNWR game and Focus on increasing enrollment which will give more flexibility as you were saying?

My hunch is that we’re trying but I would say that maybe they’re de-emphasizing the US news and world report too much??

(09-14-2021 08:44 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(09-14-2021 07:01 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  UC's ranking improved when it was a strategic focus of the administration. It requires that focus from the top to create tactical plans that improve performance in key areas to drive the ranking up. We all want it to be higher. But we also should be concerned about directionality--are we rising a little or falling a little?

One indicator used to be what UC was offering National Merit Scholars compared with an Alabama or a Miami (OH). I'm aware of a particular student who took that higher offer from Miami (in engineering of all things), but later came to regret not choosing UC. But financially incenting academically high achieving students is just one among many tactics to consider in raising the overall academic profile of an entering class.

While I would agree U.S. News rankings are often measuring prestige more than quality, millions of parents and prospective students don't know that or even care. So to be dismissive of this ranking comes at great peril for any university.

There's a large difference between attracting the best students, and doing the best job at educating its students.

Rationally, everyone should base their decision on the latter.

Unfortunately, the only ranking system I know of that attempts to measure the latter (Washington Monthly) appears to have changed its rating system and today its top-10 look a lot like other ranking systems. However, there's still some surprises: Utah State #10, Fresno State #26, FIU #35. Also of note: UC has always done very poorly in the Washington Monthly ratings.

Dang, you had me excited for a second until I read your last sentence.

(09-14-2021 08:44 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  There's a large difference between attracting the best students, and doing the best job at educating its students.

Rationally, everyone should base their decision on the latter.

Unfortunately, the only ranking system I know of that attempts to measure the latter (Washington Monthly) appears to have changed its rating system and today its top-10 look a lot like other ranking systems. However, there's still some surprises: Utah State #10, Fresno State #26, FIU #35. Also of note: UC has always done very poorly in the Washington Monthly ratings.

I think it can be argued that to a very significant degree they go hand-in-hand. Better faculty-student ratios, and more disciplined and talented students leads to increased competition in the classroom and the ability of professors to teach courses at a higher level.

Also, I looked up OSU's numbers and their first time freshman class ballooned to 8600 last year, and it looks like they've said enough is enough and pared it back by 250 students this year mostly through cuts to in-state students. If that really is a concerted multi-year effort to cut the size of that freshman class by 1000-1500 that will be good for the rest of the system and particularly UC since we're positioned to get the best of them.

(09-17-2021 09:02 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(09-14-2021 08:44 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  There's a large difference between attracting the best students, and doing the best job at educating its students.

Rationally, everyone should base their decision on the latter.

Unfortunately, the only ranking system I know of that attempts to measure the latter (Washington Monthly) appears to have changed its rating system and today its top-10 look a lot like other ranking systems. However, there's still some surprises: Utah State #10, Fresno State #26, FIU #35. Also of note: UC has always done very poorly in the Washington Monthly ratings.

I think it can be argued that to a very significant degree they go hand-in-hand. Better faculty-student ratios, and more disciplined and talented students leads to increased competition in the classroom and the ability of professors to teach courses at a higher level.

Also, I looked up OSU's numbers and their first time freshman class ballooned to 8600 last year, and it looks like they've said enough is enough and pared it back by 250 students this year mostly through cuts to in-state students. If that really is a concerted multi-year effort to cut the size of that freshman class by 1000-1500 that will be good for the rest of the system and particularly UC since we're positioned to get the best of them.

That's one argument.

Another argument is that a kid with a 90th percentile SAT score will be decidedly average at OSU or Miami. But that same kid could be the favorite student at Kent or Toledo and will get 1-on-1 opportunities that they never would have had the chance to do at a more prestigious school.

There's probably a personality type for whom the smart-fish-in-a-dumb-pond strategy works better. It wouldn't have worked for me because I usually did the minimum amount of work required to pass (which was an insanely high workload at my undergrad school, CWRU, so that was probably the best possible school for me).

(09-17-2021 09:02 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(09-14-2021 08:44 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  There's a large difference between attracting the best students, and doing the best job at educating its students.

Rationally, everyone should base their decision on the latter.

Unfortunately, the only ranking system I know of that attempts to measure the latter (Washington Monthly) appears to have changed its rating system and today its top-10 look a lot like other ranking systems. However, there's still some surprises: Utah State #10, Fresno State #26, FIU #35. Also of note: UC has always done very poorly in the Washington Monthly ratings.

I think it can be argued that to a very significant degree they go hand-in-hand. Better faculty-student ratios, and more disciplined and talented students leads to increased competition in the classroom and the ability of professors to teach courses at a higher level.

Also, I looked up OSU's numbers and their first time freshman class ballooned to 8600 last year, and it looks like they've said enough is enough and pared it back by 250 students this year mostly through cuts to in-state students. If that really is a concerted multi-year effort to cut the size of that freshman class by 1000-1500 that will be good for the rest of the system and particularly UC since we're positioned to get the best of them.

OSU significantly lowered their entrance standards to attempt to stymy any potential enrollment drop due to Covid, as did UC. That's part of the reason that nearly all of the 2nd tier 4-years in Ohio saw enrollment decline in DHS populations...I doubt they're going to be doing that for this year or moving forward...though with Test-Optional admissions, who knows how different things will actually be.