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Thoughts on Stadium size
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CliftonAve Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Thoughts on Stadium size
Yeah we won’t be playing at PBS. In fact I would not be surprised if we buy out those Miami neutral site games going down there. If anything we will be raising ticket prices as demand increases (this applies fo 5/3rd as well). There is no band for your buck for adding another 10K seats at Nippert- especially in this age of streaming services emerging.
 
09-13-2021 09:34 AM
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bearcat29 Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Thoughts on Stadium size
I imagine the math doesn't work. Expensive construction, relatively cheap tickets and some demand over 7 games.

They did the last renovation for premium seating and much needed improvements. That will pay off. The ticket prices on 2nd or 3rd tier seats probably won't have roi.
 
09-13-2021 09:42 AM
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doss2 Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Thoughts on Stadium size
It is hard to justify the cost of building "cheap priced seats"

If The Club Seats get fully subscribed by season holders and there is enough demand and the people will make a 3 year commitment add Club Seats over Reed Shank.

There are areas down by the open end where some seats could be created.
 
09-13-2021 09:47 AM
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colohank Offline
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Post: #84
RE: Thoughts on Stadium size
(09-13-2021 08:36 AM)beethovan Wrote:  
(09-12-2021 10:52 PM)colohank Wrote:  When I was a student, way back in late Cretaceous, Dieterle was the gym building. If memory serves, either gym or ROTC was required of A&S students, and maybe others. An indoor track occupied a mezzanine overlooking the main space. I used to drop by the basement to punch a speed-bag from time to time.

Back in perhaps an even earlier era wasn't it the "girl's gym"? 01-wingedeagle

It may have been the gym for both genders.
 
09-13-2021 10:00 AM
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BearcatsUC Offline
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Post: #85
RE: Thoughts on Stadium size
(09-13-2021 09:47 AM)doss2 Wrote:  It is hard to justify the cost of building "cheap priced seats"

If The Club Seats get fully subscribed by season holders and there is enough demand and the people will make a 3 year commitment add Club Seats over Reed Shank.

There are areas down by the open end where some seats could be created.

I understand the roi thing, but nippert’s small size has been a never-ending topic of judgment regarding fan interest.

If Bearcat football does become that popular, it’s probably imporatant to keep the cheap seats for the common folk. After all, their eyeballs help the tvs ratings just like the dissed of the world.
 
(This post was last modified: 09-13-2021 12:14 PM by BearcatsUC.)
09-13-2021 12:14 PM
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TubaCat Offline
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Post: #86
RE: Thoughts on Stadium size
It's impressive how many folks have projected UC football's P5 ticket demand years before we even join the conference.

They've calculated the value of every seat, studied all the architectural options for expanding Nippert Stadium (taking construction costs, operating costs, structural availability, and aesthetics into account), and determined that it will not be cost-effective to expand.

Despite the fact that literally 97% of P5 stadiums are larger than Nippert, they are certain that UC is different and special and can't use any of the established business models as our own. Quite impressive!

(heavy sarcasm)

Come on, guys. Exactly zero people know what ticket demand will look like after a few years of playing in the P5. Streaming is a factor, but so is the rapid growth of our program and finally playing in the P5. Heck, with the Bengals stadium contract running out in the coming years, maybe they'll be on the other side of the country by then.

I am not claiming that we need to expand.

I am not claiming that we don't need to expand.


I am simply stating the 100% fact that we can't make any sort of determination until we have enough useful data. It will probably take a few years. However, it seems very unlikely that if we want to become a top 25 program (not team), and be safe from future rounds of conference realignment, we can't settle for the 3rd smallest stadium in the P5. We are not the Duke of college football, and we can't anticipate that we will be. We can't assume that we can prosper as an extreme outlier from the norm (which is ~50,000 seats at minimum).
 
09-13-2021 12:15 PM
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OKIcat Offline
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Post: #87
RE: Thoughts on Stadium size
(09-13-2021 12:15 PM)TubaCat Wrote:  It's impressive how many folks have projected UC football's P5 ticket demand years before we even join the conference.

They've calculated the value of every seat, studied all the architectural options for expanding Nippert Stadium (taking construction costs, operating costs, structural availability, and aesthetics into account), and determined that it will not be cost-effective to expand.

Despite the fact that literally 97% of P5 stadiums are larger than Nippert, they are certain that UC is different and special and can't use any of the established business models as our own. Quite impressive!

(heavy sarcasm)

Come on, guys. Exactly zero people know what ticket demand will look like after a few years of playing in the P5. Streaming is a factor, but so is the rapid growth of our program and finally playing in the P5. Heck, with the Bengals stadium contract running out in the coming years, maybe they'll be on the other side of the country by then.

I am not claiming that we need to expand.

I am not claiming that we don't need to expand.


I am simply stating the 100% fact that we can't make any sort of determination until we have enough useful data. It will probably take a few years. However, it seems very unlikely that if we want to become a top 25 program (not team), and be safe from future rounds of conference realignment, we can't settle for the 3rd smallest stadium in the P5. We are not the Duke of college football, and we can't anticipate that we will be. We can't assume that we can prosper as an extreme outlier from the norm (which is ~50,000 seats at minimum).

Excellent post and I do agree that we don't know what we don't know yet about ticket demand in the P5. It was a different time in history but UC was not selling out all Big East football games in those days, even as a BCS 6 conference. Louisville and West Virginia brought plenty of fans and more locals filled the place; South Florida or UCONN, not so many. Will Texas Tech or Houston sell out here?

Arguably, scarcity of tickets for Duke basketball with 9,314 seats in Cameron Indoor became its calling card. If we sell out Nippert for one season does that suggest we need more seats? Or is the litmus test selling it out for several seasons and creating a buzz among fans pressuring UC for seating expansion?

If demand increases, we should expect an increase in both ticket prices and UCATS giving requirements too and how elastic will demand be at those higher prices?

One final thought based upon some inside knowledge from the move to the Big East years ago. The increased money isn't just a windfall. Every coach in every sport will be looking at comparable salary data for the P5, not the G5, and costs in all programs will rise to retain, or hire coaches--even for sports such as baseball or volleyball.
 
09-13-2021 12:35 PM
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BearcatsUC Offline
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Post: #88
RE: Thoughts on Stadium size
(09-13-2021 12:15 PM)TubaCat Wrote:  It's impressive how many folks have projected UC football's P5 ticket demand years before we even join the conference.

They've calculated the value of every seat, studied all the architectural options for expanding Nippert Stadium (taking construction costs, operating costs, structural availability, and aesthetics into account), and determined that it will not be cost-effective to expand.

Despite the fact that literally 97% of P5 stadiums are larger than Nippert, they are certain that UC is different and special and can't use any of the established business models as our own. Quite impressive!

(heavy sarcasm)

Come on, guys. Exactly zero people know what ticket demand will look like after a few years of playing in the P5. Streaming is a factor, but so is the rapid growth of our program and finally playing in the P5. Heck, with the Bengals stadium contract running out in the coming years, maybe they'll be on the other side of the country by then.

I am not claiming that we need to expand.

I am not claiming that we don't need to expand.


I am simply stating the 100% fact that we can't make any sort of determination until we have enough useful data. It will probably take a few years. However, it seems very unlikely that if we want to become a top 25 program (not team), and be safe from future rounds of conference realignment, we can't settle for the 3rd smallest stadium in the P5. We are not the Duke of college football, and we can't anticipate that we will be. We can't assume that we can prosper as an extreme outlier from the norm (which is ~50,000 seats at minimum).

You start off with sarcasm, telling us we can’t possibly know demand of a P5 program - WE NEED DATA - then end by telling us UC probably can’t keep such a small stadium if we want to achieve our true aspirations of a top 25 program and be safe from future realignment.

You managed to argue both sides in a matter of a few sentences.

But the original point remains - if demand is there, past University decisions have consistently restricted options.
 
(This post was last modified: 09-13-2021 02:31 PM by BearcatsUC.)
09-13-2021 12:43 PM
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BearcatJerry Offline
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Post: #89
RE: Thoughts on Stadium size
To be honest, I'd rather "sell out" (anything 95% capacity or higher) a 37k stadium consistently than have 36k fans consistently in a 60,000k stadium.

There were "officially" 40k fans in the stands for Hawai'i @ UCLA, but estimates seem to place the actual attendance more around the 10-15k size when it was all said-and-done. That's in the 70k Rose Bowl. Can you imagine what a tomb that must have been? Crowd experiences like this are funny; in chemistry terms below a certain concentration of fans it's like an endo-thermic reaction...you have to put more energy into the thing than you get out of it. Over an extended period of time, it's a soul-sucking experience that causes even ardent fans to give up. But when you get above a certain concentration of fans, it becomes more like an exothermic reaction: you get more energy out of it than you put in.

I have been in Nippert when it had small crowds and it literally sucked to be a Bearcat fan...when we had 15-20k out in the cold to play someone like UAB and it was literally HARD to care about what the hell was going on the field. To cheer, when you are fairly isolated in the stands and seems like you're a lone voice. I have been in Nippert when it was crowded and people are going nuts...it's hard to sit down when your surrounded by people who are into every little thing going on.

IMO, it's EASIER to get to that critical mass at Nippert. If we took the SAME crowd and spread it out at PBS, it's like a morgue. What we need to do now, is consistently FILL Nippert so that there are scalpers out on the street trying to buy tickets to resell. A full Nippert is electric. I'll take a full Nippert over a half-empty stadium any day of the week.
 
09-13-2021 12:58 PM
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BearcatsUC Offline
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Post: #90
RE: Thoughts on Stadium size
(09-13-2021 12:58 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  To be honest, I'd rather "sell out" (anything 95% capacity or higher) a 37k stadium consistently than have 36k fans consistently in a 60,000k stadium.

There were "officially" 40k fans in the stands for Hawai'i @ UCLA, but estimates seem to place the actual attendance more around the 10-15k size when it was all said-and-done. That's in the 70k Rose Bowl. Can you imagine what a tomb that must have been? Crowd experiences like this are funny; in chemistry terms below a certain concentration of fans it's like an endo-thermic reaction...you have to put more energy into the thing than you get out of it. Over an extended period of time, it's a soul-sucking experience that causes even ardent fans to give up. But when you get above a certain concentration of fans, it becomes more like an exothermic reaction: you get more energy out of it than you put in.

I have been in Nippert when it had small crowds and it literally sucked to be a Bearcat fan...when we had 15-20k out in the cold to play someone like UAB and it was literally HARD to care about what the hell was going on the field. To cheer, when you are fairly isolated in the stands and seems like you're a lone voice. I have been in Nippert when it was crowded and people are going nuts...it's hard to sit down when your surrounded by people who are into every little thing going on.

IMO, it's EASIER to get to that critical mass at Nippert. If we took the SAME crowd and spread it out at PBS, it's like a morgue. What we need to do now, is consistently FILL Nippert so that there are scalpers out on the street trying to buy tickets to resell. A full Nippert is electric. I'll take a full Nippert over a half-empty stadium any day of the week.

Well as some of us have already mentioned, there prolly isn’t room for 60,000 unless UC starts tearing down nearby buildings and that’s not going to happen. Honestly, I can't imagine what a mess 50,000 would be.

I like Nippert the way it is in terms of size, but I admit to a fascination regarding options going forward and the reasons for actions taken in the past.
 
09-13-2021 01:14 PM
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skylinecat Offline
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Post: #91
RE: Thoughts on Stadium size
Season tickets are about a 15% as expensive as Bengals season tickets and its not like we're selling them all. A slight increase in the cost of tickets would cost UC nothing and would bring in just as much revenue as new seats.
 
09-13-2021 01:45 PM
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beethovan Offline
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Post: #92
RE: Thoughts on Stadium size
(09-13-2021 12:58 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  To be honest, I'd rather "sell out" (anything 95% capacity or higher) a 37k stadium consistently than have 36k fans consistently in a 60,000k stadium.

I have been in Nippert when it had small crowds and it literally sucked to be a Bearcat fan...when we had 15-20k out in the cold to play someone like UAB and it was literally HARD to care about what the hell was going on the field. To cheer, when you are fairly isolated in the stands and seems like you're a lone voice. I have been in Nippert when it was crowded and people are going nuts...it's hard to sit down when your surrounded by people who are into every little thing going on.

IMO, it's EASIER to get to that critical mass at Nippert. If we took the SAME crowd and spread it out at PBS, it's like a morgue. What we need to do now, is consistently FILL Nippert so that there are scalpers out on the street trying to buy tickets to resell. A full Nippert is electric. I'll take a full Nippert over a half-empty stadium any day of the week.

While I understand you don't want to be beholden to your opponent in generating large turnout I had my son to the Oklahoma game at PBS and he was amazed at the crowd size (something like 55,000+?} the energy, enthusiasm, etc. We've had our seats at Nippert for a long time, and we love it just the way it is, but it's hard to believe you wouldn't be able to draw 45,000+ for most conference games after a couple of years in the Big 12. Does that mean trying to expand Nippert, or moving one or 2 games to PBS - I have no idea - but I wouldn't shut the idea down until we see.
 
09-13-2021 01:52 PM
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Post: #93
RE: Thoughts on Stadium size
(09-13-2021 01:52 PM)beethovan Wrote:  
(09-13-2021 12:58 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  To be honest, I'd rather "sell out" (anything 95% capacity or higher) a 37k stadium consistently than have 36k fans consistently in a 60,000k stadium.

I have been in Nippert when it had small crowds and it literally sucked to be a Bearcat fan...when we had 15-20k out in the cold to play someone like UAB and it was literally HARD to care about what the hell was going on the field. To cheer, when you are fairly isolated in the stands and seems like you're a lone voice. I have been in Nippert when it was crowded and people are going nuts...it's hard to sit down when your surrounded by people who are into every little thing going on.

IMO, it's EASIER to get to that critical mass at Nippert. If we took the SAME crowd and spread it out at PBS, it's like a morgue. What we need to do now, is consistently FILL Nippert so that there are scalpers out on the street trying to buy tickets to resell. A full Nippert is electric. I'll take a full Nippert over a half-empty stadium any day of the week.

While I understand you don't want to be beholden to your opponent in generating large turnout I had my son to the Oklahoma game at PBS and he was amazed at the crowd size (something like 55,000+?} the energy, enthusiasm, etc. We've had our seats at Nippert for a long time, and we love it just the way it is, but it's hard to believe you wouldn't be able to draw 45,000+ for most conference games after a couple of years in the Big 12. Does that mean trying to expand Nippert, or moving one or 2 games to PBS - I have no idea - but I wouldn't shut the idea down until we see.

I think we need to get through the pandemic first to see how attendance normalizes. Then once UC has a few Big XII football seasons in the rear view mirror a discussion regarding stadium size and attendance makes more sense.
 
09-13-2021 01:56 PM
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RE: Thoughts on Stadium size
Operate at near capacity and forget about dumping $$ into shoehorning another incremental expansion.

And we are not playing at PBS again outside of the Miami game ever few years unless it’s Ohio State.
 
(This post was last modified: 09-13-2021 02:21 PM by rath v2.0.)
09-13-2021 02:20 PM
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doss2 Offline
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RE: Thoughts on Stadium size
I repeat I were UC's CFO I would want to see if the net revenue generated would amortize the investment. Building Club seat generates a big multiple of cheap seats.
 
09-13-2021 02:26 PM
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BearcatsUC Offline
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Post: #96
RE: Thoughts on Stadium size
(09-13-2021 02:26 PM)doss2 Wrote:  I repeat I were UC's CFO I would want to see if the net revenue generated would amortize the investment. Building Club seat generates a big multiple of cheap seats.

But UC still needs those pee wee football players who don’t mind the cheap seats. Future Bearcats. We don’t want a stadium full of fuddy duddies more concerned about the theme of the Club buffet.
 
(This post was last modified: 09-13-2021 02:34 PM by BearcatsUC.)
09-13-2021 02:33 PM
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