(07-26-2021 10:20 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(07-25-2021 09:40 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(07-25-2021 09:03 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  I would prefer to do the opposite. With the 12 team playoff ND won't ever join the ACC. So don't give them the landing spot for their non-FB sports. Don't give them the bowl access. Don't give them the partial schedule.

In other words ... no more partial membership. Let's stop being under the illusion that ND will ever join. It won't happen. Not now, not ever. We have enough members of the Big East in this conference, who depended on ND joining only to never see that materialize, that the ACC should be able to best internalize that reality.

This would be a change in membership. This would trigger a contractual renegotiation in TV dollars.

It would trigger an (easily winnable) breach of contract lawsuit by ND, who has complied with every contractual provision of the ACC/ND deals.

Those deals run through 2036.

What would be the legal basis for the ACC to unilaterally terminate the contracts with ND, a full legal member of the ACC in good standing ??

Answer: No valid one at all.

P.S. How/why in the world did any ACC schools "depend" on ND joining in full, when ND made it abundantly clear before, during and after the deal that football would never be included???

Here's your $3m/yr in damages. We'll be going on the open market now to recoup that.

That is not how damages work in court.

The measure would be how much the breach of contract damaged ND, not how much ESPN paid the ACC.

My guess is that ND can prove much higher damages than that, but who cares?

The ACC brass is not dumb enough to do that.

(07-25-2021 09:03 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  I would prefer to do the opposite. With the 12 team playoff ND won't ever join the ACC. So don't give them the landing spot for their non-FB sports. Don't give them the bowl access. Don't give them the partial schedule.

In other words ... no more partial membership. Let's stop being under the illusion that ND will ever join. It won't happen. Not now, not ever. We have enough members of the Big East in this conference, who depended on ND joining only to never see that materialize, that the ACC should be able to best internalize that reality.

This would be a change in membership. This would trigger a contractual renegotiation in TV dollars.

I don’t think the ACC would do that but maybe ND would voluntarily leave for the BIG in 2037.

If the BIG takes Pitt, Cuse, and BC with ND upon ND’s demand, the ACC would be left with 11 teams. TCU, Cincy, WVU, or Kansas would be a possibility for the 12th.

If the BIG takes only Pitt (or Cuse) with ND, the ACC would be left with 13 teams, and may decide to stay put.

Even if ND wants to leave before 2037 and the ACC agrees, I don’t know whether a contractual renegotiation would necessarily happen. The ESPN may just want to keep the current contract as I think it would be still favorable for them.

(07-26-2021 12:06 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(07-25-2021 11:37 AM)random asian guy Wrote:  As many people inclduing myself mentioned, it seems like the only remaining big target for P4 is ND.

This UT & OU move is so significant that the SEC is pretty much done with the expansion in my opinion.

For ND, the SEC expansion didn’t have a direct impact. But it probably have noticed that 1) the SEC schools will make much money than before, 2) scheduling SEC schools may become a little more difficult and 3) the College Football landscape is one step closer to P4 model, although the revenue imbalance within power conferences intensifies. I am aware that these factors may not alter ND’s desicion.

For the BIG, the best move is to wait until 2037 and get ND and one of its friends, most likely Pitt or Cuse. They have a significant advantage over the ACC in terms of money and will make the last big push to attract ND.

So what should the ACC offer? Yes the ACC provides more ND friendly opponents and the East Coast exposure. But is this enough? I would say the following:

1. Let ND choose 16th team whoever it likes whether it’s Navy, Cincy, or even Georgetown although the ACC probably won’t need the 16th team. (See the third point.)

2. Let ND have the excellent TV exposure. No Friday games and nationally televised Saturday games

3. Let ND play only 7 conference games while other ACC teams play 8 or 9 games. I think this is possible whether the ACC keeps divisions (ND switiching divisions every year or every two years) or goes divisionless (4-5-5 for ACC teams and 7-7 for ND)

4. Ditch the equal payout (only for ND) and give more money to ND so that the payout to ND can be at least competitive compared to the BIG’s offer.

The last item would be very controversial within the league and kind of defeats the purpose (the ACC wanted to have ND for financial gain).

So what do you think? Should the ACC bend backward this much?

Absolutely Not!
If they want to join, we should accept them, if they don't, that's fine.

Do you oppose everything I listed or just the unequal payout for ND? I think the ACC may be OK with something like the Big 12 type arrangement where ND can keep its own T3 or Fighting Irish TV.

(07-27-2021 09:52 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  

(07-26-2021 12:06 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(07-25-2021 11:37 AM)random asian guy Wrote:  As many people inclduing myself mentioned, it seems like the only remaining big target for P4 is ND.

This UT & OU move is so significant that the SEC is pretty much done with the expansion in my opinion.

For ND, the SEC expansion didn’t have a direct impact. But it probably have noticed that 1) the SEC schools will make much money than before, 2) scheduling SEC schools may become a little more difficult and 3) the College Football landscape is one step closer to P4 model, although the revenue imbalance within power conferences intensifies. I am aware that these factors may not alter ND’s desicion.

For the BIG, the best move is to wait until 2037 and get ND and one of its friends, most likely Pitt or Cuse. They have a significant advantage over the ACC in terms of money and will make the last big push to attract ND.

So what should the ACC offer? Yes the ACC provides more ND friendly opponents and the East Coast exposure. But is this enough? I would say the following:

1. Let ND choose 16th team whoever it likes whether it’s Navy, Cincy, or even Georgetown although the ACC probably won’t need the 16th team. (See the third point.)

2. Let ND have the excellent TV exposure. No Friday games and nationally televised Saturday games

3. Let ND play only 7 conference games while other ACC teams play 8 or 9 games. I think this is possible whether the ACC keeps divisions (ND switiching divisions every year or every two years) or goes divisionless (4-5-5 for ACC teams and 7-7 for ND)

4. Ditch the equal payout (only for ND) and give more money to ND so that the payout to ND can be at least competitive compared to the BIG’s offer.

The last item would be very controversial within the league and kind of defeats the purpose (the ACC wanted to have ND for financial gain).

So what do you think? Should the ACC bend backward this much?

Absolutely Not!
If they want to join, we should accept them, if they don't, that's fine.

Do you oppose everything I listed or just the unequal payout for ND? I think the ACC may be OK with something like the Big 12 type arrangement where ND can keep its own T3 or Fighting Irish TV.

I think the ACC has already compromised with Notre Dame. If they wanted something more to join, they could ask. I am sure the ACC will think long and hard about a request.

Interesting article from the ESPN:

***
Notre Dame is a lifeline.

"Notre Dame adds real value," one administrator said. "They're the only big prize out there."

...

Ah, not so fast, said Notre Dame AD Jack Swarbrick.

"We thoroughly enjoyed being an ACC member for a year," Swarbrick said to ESPN, "but it also gave our fans that comparison. So not only because of their interest but my own, our own assessment, independence remains a priority and important to us."

...

It's possible, too, that a league comes up with the right revenue formula, something Notre Dame would find impossible to resist. That could lead to a deal like Texas once enjoyed with the Big 12, where Notre Dame, by virtue of its financial impact on the conference, gets a larger slice of the revenue pie. As one ACC administrator suggested, the league needs to think big and act aggressively.

***

https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...dependence

My read:

1. The ACC wants and the ESPN is willing to pay for ND football
2. ND doesn’t show much interest and is finding other avenues to monetize its football program.
3. The ESPN / the ACC working on its offer, which may include a Texas style media deal for ND

My opinion on the four original ideas.

1. I'm fine with Notre Dame having a strong say in which school is added as number 16, if indeed there would be a need to add a 16th.
2. I think it would be a given that ESPN is going to showcase Notre Dame each week. So, really the only thing worth offering here may be the no Thursday/Friday game part. However, if they get that, I would like for Clemson to also get a no Friday game rule. :)
3. No way.
4. No way.

If adding Notre Dame would increase the per school payouts to an amount that we are all happy with and are much closer to the SEC/B1G schools, then I'm all for the first two conditions above. However, there is no reason to upset the existing schools by offering something ridiculous. We would be better off staying put and working on improving the overall football product. Well, at least until we are picked apart by the SEC/B1G.

Regarding the OP…offering accommodations to ND is the wrong approach.

The ACC regularly communicates its interest in ND football and ND has clearly stated they are not interested in football membership. Any accommodations by the ACC are just peripheral issues; in the current business model, football independence is paramount to ND. (Not that this will happen…) Even if the ACC could entice USC & Navy to join the ACC, ND would still not join the conference.

ND will need to make the overture. Maybe ND will desire more TV revenue, or broader media exposure, or strengthening east coast rivalries, or a leadership role in designing the future of college athletics. The ND-ACC football contract requires an average of 5 football games per year…within the current contract terms, ND could play 4 games/year for 3 years and 8 games on the 4th year. There is already plenty of open runway if ND ever feigns an interest.

(08-04-2021 12:44 PM)Schema Wrote:  My opinion on the four original ideas.

1. I'm fine with Notre Dame having a strong say in which school is added as number 16, if indeed there would be a need to add a 16th.
2. I think it would be a given that ESPN is going to showcase Notre Dame each week. So, really the only thing worth offering here may be the no Thursday/Friday game part. However, if they get that, I would like for Clemson to also get a no Friday game rule. :)
3. No way.
4. No way.

If adding Notre Dame would increase the per school payouts to an amount that we are all happy with and are much closer to the SEC/B1G schools, then I'm all for the first two conditions above. However, there is no reason to upset the existing schools by offering something ridiculous. We would be better off staying put and working on improving the overall football product. Well, at least until we are picked apart by the SEC/B1G.

I'd give a non vital organ to never hear #3 suggested again. Allowing ND to be a full member while playing less conference games is literally the dumbest idea on the internet.

(08-04-2021 12:30 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  Interesting article from the ESPN:

***
Notre Dame is a lifeline.

"Notre Dame adds real value," one administrator said. "They're the only big prize out there."

...

Ah, not so fast, said Notre Dame AD Jack Swarbrick.

"We thoroughly enjoyed being an ACC member for a year," Swarbrick said to ESPN, "but it also gave our fans that comparison. So not only because of their interest but my own, our own assessment, independence remains a priority and important to us."

...

It's possible, too, that a league comes up with the right revenue formula, something Notre Dame would find impossible to resist. That could lead to a deal like Texas once enjoyed with the Big 12, where Notre Dame, by virtue of its financial impact on the conference, gets a larger slice of the revenue pie. As one ACC administrator suggested, the league needs to think big and act aggressively.

***

https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...dependence

My read:

1. The ACC wants and the ESPN is willing to pay for ND football
2. ND doesn’t show much interest and is finding other avenues to monetize its football program.
3. The ESPN / the ACC working on its offer, which may include a Texas style media deal for ND

That would bring even more instability. I assume would ask to be paid the same as bama and the SEC. That would not be healthy for the ACC.

Perhaps an innovation is something like the following:

ACC Water Division - USC/Stanford/ND/Pitt/Navy/Miami
ACC Upland Division - BC/Syracuse/Louisville/VT/CU/FSU
ACC Piedmont Division - UVa/UNC/NC State/WF/Duke/GT

Or in a two division set up:

ACC Private - USC/Stanford/ND/Duke/WF/BC/Miami/Pitt/Syracuse
ACC Public - Navy/Louisville/VT/UVa/UNC/NC State/GT/CU/FSU

Clemson and FSU won't go for a "ND eats what it kills" but Clemson/FSU don't.

ACC needs to give back everyone their tier 3 rights, a much bigger percentage of their bowl/playoff $. Minimum.

(08-04-2021 07:21 PM)nole Wrote:  Clemson and FSU won't go for a "ND eats what it kills" but Clemson/FSU don't.

ACC needs to give back everyone their tier 3 rights, a much bigger percentage of their bowl/playoff $. Minimum.

It's going to be hard to give back tier 3 rights when they're all owned by ESPN.

(08-04-2021 10:25 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  

(08-04-2021 07:21 PM)nole Wrote:  Clemson and FSU won't go for a "ND eats what it kills" but Clemson/FSU don't.

ACC needs to give back everyone their tier 3 rights, a much bigger percentage of their bowl/playoff $. Minimum.

It's going to be hard to give back tier 3 rights when they're all owned by ESPN.

Until 2036.

(08-04-2021 07:21 PM)nole Wrote:  Clemson and FSU won't go for a "ND eats what it kills" but Clemson/FSU don't.

ACC needs to give back everyone their tier 3 rights, a much bigger percentage of their bowl/playoff $. Minimum.

Eat what you kill could alleviate things greatly. But I don't think UNC, UVA, and ESPECIALLY NOT Duke and WF will appreciate what they hear that shakes out to in a football world. It would probably cause heartburn in Syracuse, Chestnut Hill, and Pittsburgh as well. OTOH .... it is probably a steep pay raise for FSU and a substantial one for Clemson, GT, Miami, Louisville, and Virginia Tech. If ND were a full member in this arrangement they too would see a steep pay raise.

(08-05-2021 11:08 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(08-04-2021 07:21 PM)nole Wrote:  Clemson and FSU won't go for a "ND eats what it kills" but Clemson/FSU don't.

ACC needs to give back everyone their tier 3 rights, a much bigger percentage of their bowl/playoff $. Minimum.

Eat what you kill could alleviate things greatly. But I don't think UNC, UVA, and ESPECIALLY NOT Duke and WF will appreciate what they hear that shakes out to in a football world. It would probably cause heartburn in Syracuse, Chestnut Hill, and Pittsburgh as well. OTOH .... it is probably a steep pay raise for FSU and a substantial one for Clemson, GT, Miami, Louisville, and Virginia Tech. If ND were a full member in this arrangement they too would see a steep pay raise.

To be fair, Duke could keep its NCAA units, too...

I don’t like ND getting special considerations, either. But the ACC already gave a special deal to ND, right? The ACC brass would claim a victory as long as ND joins the ACC no matter how much the ACC has to bend backward.

I think 2025 still looms large for the ACC/the ESPN. ND’s NBC deal will expire at 2025. The new playoff format would be implemented by then. The ESPN would love to cover ND football.

With UT being taken, I think the ACC / the ESPN will make its best offer to ND before 2025. Yes ND may well reject whatever proposal the ACC makes but I am very curious what would be the ACC’s best offer. Of course, we won’t know unless ND accepts it. But the good thing is that the BIG won’t even be able to make any offer until 2036. That’s the beauty of the ACC’s GOR.

I thought Texas style T3 deal would be attractive and it looks like the ESPN writer thought the same. Maybe “Eat what you kill” for ND until 2036 and the same deal for everyone after 2036? XLance mentioned PSU in another thread. “Eat what you kill” may also work for PSU if it ever wants to join the ACC.

(08-05-2021 04:40 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  I don’t like ND getting special considerations, either. But the ACC already gave a special deal to ND, right? The ACC brass would claim a victory as long as ND joins the ACC no matter how much the ACC has to bend backward.

I think 2025 still looms large for the ACC/the ESPN. ND’s NBC deal will expire at 2025. The new playoff format would be implemented by then. The ESPN would love to cover ND football.

With UT being taken, I think the ACC / the ESPN will make its best offer to ND before 2025. Yes ND may well reject whatever proposal the ACC makes but I am very curious what would be the ACC’s best offer. Of course, we won’t know unless ND accepts it. But the good thing is that the BIG won’t even be able to make any offer until 2036. That’s the beauty of the ACC’s GOR.

I thought Texas style T3 deal would be attractive and it looks like the ESPN writer thought the same. Maybe “Eat what you kill” for ND until 2036 and the same deal for everyone after 2036? XLance mentioned PSU in another thread. “Eat what you kill” may also work for PSU if it ever wants to join the ACC.

you wont' get a GOR extension without an 'eat what you kill' for everyone.

ACC can try, but when football schools are staring at $40 million revenue gaps, they won't sign.

ND isn't joining in any circumstance

(08-05-2021 04:40 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  I don’t like ND getting special considerations, either. But the ACC already gave a special deal to ND, right? The ACC brass would claim a victory as long as ND joins the ACC no matter how much the ACC has to bend backward.

I think 2025 still looms large for the ACC/the ESPN. ND’s NBC deal will expire at 2025. The new playoff format would be implemented by then. The ESPN would love to cover ND football.

With UT being taken, I think the ACC / the ESPN will make its best offer to ND before 2025. Yes ND may well reject whatever proposal the ACC makes but I am very curious what would be the ACC’s best offer. Of course, we won’t know unless ND accepts it. But the good thing is that the BIG won’t even be able to make any offer until 2036. That’s the beauty of the ACC’s GOR.

I thought Texas style T3 deal would be attractive and it looks like the ESPN writer thought the same. Maybe “Eat what you kill” for ND until 2036 and the same deal for everyone after 2036? XLance mentioned PSU in another thread. “Eat what you kill” may also work for PSU if it ever wants to join the ACC.

Your post made me ponder whether NBC has the contractual right to sell its existing ND TV contract to ESPN. Without ND approval. Not sure they'd want to. But it is a way around the broadcast/content control issue for ESPN. Again, I'm pretty sure Comcast would laugh at any offer.

Navy saved Notre Dame post WW2, maybe Notre Dame can help save the ACC and bring Navy along as 16th team. Work out details to keep NBC deal for 2-3 non con games.

Right now those road games at Notre Dame are the only guaranteed broadcast tv slots for ACC teams - and with the SEC eating up all of the 2:30 pm ABC slots (and vying for the prime time slots, too), the ACC might need Notre Dame to remain independent!