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Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
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Foreverandever Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
(06-17-2021 08:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-16-2021 09:57 PM)esayem Wrote:  The major bowls comparison has one major fallacy: bowls were scarce before a lot of these upstart programs were created, and recent history features many tie-ins that just wouldn’t have happened back then. For example, Western Michigan would never have been invited to a major bowl without the “G5 champ” clause.

Yes, and not just major bowls, any bowls were rare at one time.

Look at Michigan - before 1970, they played in exactly three bowl games. Three bowls in 90 seasons of football. Ohio State played in 5 bowl games before 1970.


No that just shows you how much media, in particular television, plays in the game today and how it has shaped this current situation to its benefit.

Tulsa had already been to 5 new years day bowls by the 1970s. Then magically as money and television became involved only certain large state schools (audience) seem to become important. Funny enough that same time period is when the big conferences begin to try splitting off and rules are instituted that have zero to do with competition levels, like attendance requirements which have nothing to do with how good a team you have, but are very important to media executives who care how many people are watching your game, not whether or not you can compete.

For evidence see Texas.
(This post was last modified: 06-17-2021 09:55 AM by Foreverandever.)
06-17-2021 09:51 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
(06-17-2021 09:51 AM)Foreverandever Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 08:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-16-2021 09:57 PM)esayem Wrote:  The major bowls comparison has one major fallacy: bowls were scarce before a lot of these upstart programs were created, and recent history features many tie-ins that just wouldn’t have happened back then. For example, Western Michigan would never have been invited to a major bowl without the “G5 champ” clause.

Yes, and not just major bowls, any bowls were rare at one time.

Look at Michigan - before 1970, they played in exactly three bowl games. Three bowls in 90 seasons of football. Ohio State played in 5 bowl games before 1970.


No that just shows you how much media, in particular television, plays in the game today and how it has shaped this current situation to its benefit.

Tulsa had already been to 5 new years day bowls by the 1970s. Then magically as money and television became involved only certain large state schools (audience) seem to become important. Funny enough that same time period is when the big conferences begin to try splitting off and rules are instituted that have zero to do with competition levels, like attendance requirements which have nothing to do with how good a team you have, but are very important to media executives who care how many people are watching your game, not whether or not you can compete.

Not so fast my friend. Tulsa had a nice run during the WWII years when other programs weren’t even fielding teams. Then the program dropped off. There isn’t any evidence to support Tulsa was jobbed out of major bowls. Even 10-1 1982, Tulsa got smoked by Arkansas—the only ranked team they played.
06-17-2021 10:01 AM
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Foreverandever Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
(06-17-2021 10:01 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 09:51 AM)Foreverandever Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 08:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-16-2021 09:57 PM)esayem Wrote:  The major bowls comparison has one major fallacy: bowls were scarce before a lot of these upstart programs were created, and recent history features many tie-ins that just wouldn’t have happened back then. For example, Western Michigan would never have been invited to a major bowl without the “G5 champ” clause.

Yes, and not just major bowls, any bowls were rare at one time.

Look at Michigan - before 1970, they played in exactly three bowl games. Three bowls in 90 seasons of football. Ohio State played in 5 bowl games before 1970.


No that just shows you how much media, in particular television, plays in the game today and how it has shaped this current situation to its benefit.

Tulsa had already been to 5 new years day bowls by the 1970s. Then magically as money and television became involved only certain large state schools (audience) seem to become important. Funny enough that same time period is when the big conferences begin to try splitting off and rules are instituted that have zero to do with competition levels, like attendance requirements which have nothing to do with how good a team you have, but are very important to media executives who care how many people are watching your game, not whether or not you can compete.

Not so fast my friend. Tulsa had a nice run during the WWII years when other programs weren’t even fielding teams. Then the program dropped off. There isn’t any evidence to support Tulsa was jobbed out of major bowls. Even 10-1 1982, Tulsa got smoked by Arkansas—the only ranked team they played.


Missed point. Bad evidence. P5 fan.



Tulsa went to three other bowls before the 1970s.

Tulsa had several other 7 win seasons and no bowls.

What poll was Arkansas ranked in? Who made that poll? Would that be before or after the television monster was roaming around with its influence?
06-17-2021 10:16 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #84
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
(06-17-2021 10:16 AM)Foreverandever Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 10:01 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 09:51 AM)Foreverandever Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 08:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-16-2021 09:57 PM)esayem Wrote:  The major bowls comparison has one major fallacy: bowls were scarce before a lot of these upstart programs were created, and recent history features many tie-ins that just wouldn’t have happened back then. For example, Western Michigan would never have been invited to a major bowl without the “G5 champ” clause.

Yes, and not just major bowls, any bowls were rare at one time.

Look at Michigan - before 1970, they played in exactly three bowl games. Three bowls in 90 seasons of football. Ohio State played in 5 bowl games before 1970.


No that just shows you how much media, in particular television, plays in the game today and how it has shaped this current situation to its benefit.

Tulsa had already been to 5 new years day bowls by the 1970s. Then magically as money and television became involved only certain large state schools (audience) seem to become important. Funny enough that same time period is when the big conferences begin to try splitting off and rules are instituted that have zero to do with competition levels, like attendance requirements which have nothing to do with how good a team you have, but are very important to media executives who care how many people are watching your game, not whether or not you can compete.

Not so fast my friend. Tulsa had a nice run during the WWII years when other programs weren’t even fielding teams. Then the program dropped off. There isn’t any evidence to support Tulsa was jobbed out of major bowls. Even 10-1 1982, Tulsa got smoked by Arkansas—the only ranked team they played.


Missed point. Bad evidence. P5 fan.



Tulsa went to three other bowls before the 1970s.

Tulsa had several other 7 win seasons and no bowls.

7 wins out if how many games?
We're the Alabama's and Ohio States and USCs bowling with 7 wins at that point?
06-17-2021 10:23 AM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #85
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
(06-17-2021 08:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-16-2021 09:57 PM)esayem Wrote:  The major bowls comparison has one major fallacy: bowls were scarce before a lot of these upstart programs were created, and recent history features many tie-ins that just wouldn’t have happened back then. For example, Western Michigan would never have been invited to a major bowl without the “G5 champ” clause.

Yes, and not just major bowls, any bowls were rare at one time.

Look at Michigan - before 1970, they played in exactly three bowl games. Three bowls in 90 seasons of football. Ohio State played in 5 bowl games before 1970.

The Big 10 used to ban all members from Bowl Games other than the Rose
06-17-2021 01:40 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #86
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
(06-17-2021 01:40 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 08:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-16-2021 09:57 PM)esayem Wrote:  The major bowls comparison has one major fallacy: bowls were scarce before a lot of these upstart programs were created, and recent history features many tie-ins that just wouldn’t have happened back then. For example, Western Michigan would never have been invited to a major bowl without the “G5 champ” clause.

Yes, and not just major bowls, any bowls were rare at one time.

Look at Michigan - before 1970, they played in exactly three bowl games. Three bowls in 90 seasons of football. Ohio State played in 5 bowl games before 1970.

Yes, and Notre Dame stayed out of bowls for 50+ years.

The Big 10 used to ban all members from Bowl Games other than the Rose
06-17-2021 03:17 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #87
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
(06-17-2021 09:51 AM)Foreverandever Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 08:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-16-2021 09:57 PM)esayem Wrote:  The major bowls comparison has one major fallacy: bowls were scarce before a lot of these upstart programs were created, and recent history features many tie-ins that just wouldn’t have happened back then. For example, Western Michigan would never have been invited to a major bowl without the “G5 champ” clause.

Yes, and not just major bowls, any bowls were rare at one time.

Look at Michigan - before 1970, they played in exactly three bowl games. Three bowls in 90 seasons of football. Ohio State played in 5 bowl games before 1970.


No that just shows you how much media, in particular television, plays in the game today and how it has shaped this current situation to its benefit.

Tulsa had already been to 5 new years day bowls by the 1970s. Then magically as money and television became involved only certain large state schools (audience) seem to become important. Funny enough that same time period is when the big conferences begin to try splitting off and rules are instituted that have zero to do with competition levels, like attendance requirements which have nothing to do with how good a team you have, but are very important to media executives who care how many people are watching your game, not whether or not you can compete.

For evidence see Texas.

Um, in 1970, Tulsa hadn't been to a major bowl since the early 1940s, during WW2 when as someone else said many schools weren't fielding teams. Between 1945 - 1970 they went to like a gator bowl and two bluebonnet bowls.

And even after 1970, TV was totally controlled by the NCAA, which ran on a socialistic model. That didn't change until the mid-1980s. And Tulsa wasn't going to big bowls then either. Between 1970 and 1990, Tulsa went to two independence bowls.

IMO Tulsa football has always gotten what it merited based on brand value and fan interest.
(This post was last modified: 06-17-2021 03:26 PM by quo vadis.)
06-17-2021 03:23 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #88
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
(06-17-2021 10:23 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  7 wins out if how many games?

Were the Alabama's and Ohio States and USCs bowling with 7 wins at that point?

Not a 7-win Ohio State ... you needed more than 7 wins to win the Big Ten, and only the Big Ten Champion was allowed to go bowling, to the Rose Bowl.

Indeed, basing a historical strength rating on counts of bowl appearances of Big Ten schools from a period when second and third place finishers in other conferences often went bowling but the Big Ten second and third place finishers were not allowed to go bowling would lead to a biased strength rating.
06-18-2021 06:12 AM
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PicksUp Offline
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Post: #89
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
(06-17-2021 10:23 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 10:16 AM)Foreverandever Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 10:01 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 09:51 AM)Foreverandever Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 08:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Yes, and not just major bowls, any bowls were rare at one time.

Look at Michigan - before 1970, they played in exactly three bowl games. Three bowls in 90 seasons of football. Ohio State played in 5 bowl games before 1970.


No that just shows you how much media, in particular television, plays in the game today and how it has shaped this current situation to its benefit.

Tulsa had already been to 5 new years day bowls by the 1970s. Then magically as money and television became involved only certain large state schools (audience) seem to become important. Funny enough that same time period is when the big conferences begin to try splitting off and rules are instituted that have zero to do with competition levels, like attendance requirements which have nothing to do with how good a team you have, but are very important to media executives who care how many people are watching your game, not whether or not you can compete.

Not so fast my friend. Tulsa had a nice run during the WWII years when other programs weren’t even fielding teams. Then the program dropped off. There isn’t any evidence to support Tulsa was jobbed out of major bowls. Even 10-1 1982, Tulsa got smoked by Arkansas—the only ranked team they played.


Missed point. Bad evidence. P5 fan.



Tulsa went to three other bowls before the 1970s.

Tulsa had several other 7 win seasons and no bowls.

7 wins out if how many games?
We're the Alabama's and Ohio States and USCs bowling with 7 wins at that point?

In the early to mid 70s there were about a dozen bowls. Not many teams played in them. Not shocking that a 7-9 win Tulsa team didnt make bowls when there werent 40 bowls and 80 some spots.
06-18-2021 08:01 AM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #90
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
AAC needs to the drop the other two dead weights in Tulsa and Tulane if they want to get the P6 status. They got rid of UConn, but still stuck with the other two with hardly any fan support.
06-19-2021 07:02 AM
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Foreverandever Offline
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Post: #91
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
(06-18-2021 08:01 AM)PicksUp Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 10:23 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 10:16 AM)Foreverandever Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 10:01 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 09:51 AM)Foreverandever Wrote:  No that just shows you how much media, in particular television, plays in the game today and how it has shaped this current situation to its benefit.

Tulsa had already been to 5 new years day bowls by the 1970s. Then magically as money and television became involved only certain large state schools (audience) seem to become important. Funny enough that same time period is when the big conferences begin to try splitting off and rules are instituted that have zero to do with competition levels, like attendance requirements which have nothing to do with how good a team you have, but are very important to media executives who care how many people are watching your game, not whether or not you can compete.

Not so fast my friend. Tulsa had a nice run during the WWII years when other programs weren’t even fielding teams. Then the program dropped off. There isn’t any evidence to support Tulsa was jobbed out of major bowls. Even 10-1 1982, Tulsa got smoked by Arkansas—the only ranked team they played.


Missed point. Bad evidence. P5 fan.



Tulsa went to three other bowls before the 1970s.

Tulsa had several other 7 win seasons and no bowls.

7 wins out if how many games?
We're the Alabama's and Ohio States and USCs bowling with 7 wins at that point?

In the early to mid 70s there were about a dozen bowls. Not many teams played in them. Not shocking that a 7-9 win Tulsa team didnt make bowls when there werent 40 bowls and 80 some spots.

You all still missed the point.

Before 1970 there was practically zero input from the "media" about who went where, there also weren't any permanent ties as there are now.

As TV grew, what was important to them became what was important in college football. Attendance and therefore the perceived possible audience (ratings used to sale advertising). You can simply follow the major state schools and their push for NCAA rule changes (FCS/FBS split being the first easily recognizable move) from television's ascendency.

Do you think Oklahoma just stepped out on it's own to sue for television rights in the 1980s? Of course not Television wanted its audiences guarenteed and schools the size of Texas, Michigan, USC, Alabama, Notre Dame come.with that sort of built in audience. You can simply follow along and watch historically how TV moved the system from competition to viewership and locked in advantages for those biggest schools. It's written into NCAA legislation and conference realignment.

Which is why unlike basketball we don't have a true national champion and tournament. Only with the consolidation of and dominance of ESPN over sports have we seen this crawl towards a competitive model again. Even then viewership is still the most important factor not competition.

Pre television teams rose and fell based on there ability to compete. Post the 1970s when television popularity hits critical mass, it became about how many viewers were built in.
06-19-2021 09:47 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #92
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
(06-19-2021 09:47 AM)Foreverandever Wrote:  
(06-18-2021 08:01 AM)PicksUp Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 10:23 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 10:16 AM)Foreverandever Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 10:01 AM)esayem Wrote:  Not so fast my friend. Tulsa had a nice run during the WWII years when other programs weren’t even fielding teams. Then the program dropped off. There isn’t any evidence to support Tulsa was jobbed out of major bowls. Even 10-1 1982, Tulsa got smoked by Arkansas—the only ranked team they played.


Missed point. Bad evidence. P5 fan.



Tulsa went to three other bowls before the 1970s.

Tulsa had several other 7 win seasons and no bowls.

7 wins out if how many games?
We're the Alabama's and Ohio States and USCs bowling with 7 wins at that point?

In the early to mid 70s there were about a dozen bowls. Not many teams played in them. Not shocking that a 7-9 win Tulsa team didnt make bowls when there werent 40 bowls and 80 some spots.

You all still missed the point.

Before 1970 there was practically zero input from the "media" about who went where, there also weren't any permanent ties as there are now.

Uh, yeah. So what was important was whether your school could bring 30,000 fans to Pasadena or Miami or New Orleans, or sell out the Cotton Bowl.

The Rose Bowl was (basically) exclusive to the PAC and Big Ten from 1947 (Whether it was an ironclad agreement or not, from 1947 to 2002, nobody plays in the Rose Bowl except for Big Ten and Pac-10 teams, whatever the conference might be named in a given year.)

Nothing changed in the relative positions of Texas and Tulsa. The change wasn't "TV made the bigger schools more attractive." The bigger schools were always more attractive, because they sold more tickets. TV just meant that instead of selling tickets, it's about selling Chevrolets and soap.

Quote:Pre television teams rose and fell based on there ability to compete. Post the 1970s when television popularity hits critical mass, it became about how many viewers were built in.

Sure, now it's about who brings in the TV audiences. Before that, it was about who sells tickets.

Where's that meme with the astronauts, "It always was?"
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2021 10:03 AM by johnbragg.)
06-19-2021 10:02 AM
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CoastalJuan Offline
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Post: #93
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
If AAC is P6, how would adding BYU/Boise knock them out?
06-21-2021 01:59 PM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #94
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
(06-21-2021 01:59 PM)CoastalJuan Wrote:  If AAC is P6, how would adding BYU/Boise knock them out?

If AAC *were* P6, Boise or BYU would not demote them.

But AAC is not P6 or P5, so your question is moot.

When I started the thread, people were kicking around the idea of whether securing BYU (or Boise State) as #12 for football would elevate AAC to P6 status. And my conclusion was, naaah.
06-21-2021 02:29 PM
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Post: #95
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
(06-21-2021 02:29 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(06-21-2021 01:59 PM)CoastalJuan Wrote:  If AAC is P6, how would adding BYU/Boise knock them out?

If AAC *were* P6, Boise or BYU would not demote them.

But AAC is not P6 or P5, so your question is moot.

When I started the thread, people were kicking around the idea of whether securing BYU (or Boise State) as #12 for football would elevate AAC to P6 status. And my conclusion was, naaah.

Whats interesting is--this question hinges on what "P6" means. If the new suggested 12 team CFP format is adopted--"P6" may mean something very different than it did just a week ago when this thread began.
06-21-2021 03:00 PM
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CoastalJuan Offline
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Post: #96
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
(06-21-2021 02:29 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(06-21-2021 01:59 PM)CoastalJuan Wrote:  If AAC is P6, how would adding BYU/Boise knock them out?

If AAC *were* P6, Boise or BYU would not demote them.

But AAC is not P6 or P5, so your question is moot.

When I started the thread, people were kicking around the idea of whether securing BYU (or Boise State) as #12 for football would elevate AAC to P6 status. And my conclusion was, naaah.

But what of the helmets??? Have you not seen the helmets sir?!?!?

[Image: 4921226.png]
06-21-2021 03:29 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #97
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
(06-21-2021 03:00 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-21-2021 02:29 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(06-21-2021 01:59 PM)CoastalJuan Wrote:  If AAC is P6, how would adding BYU/Boise knock them out?

If AAC *were* P6, Boise or BYU would not demote them.

But AAC is not P6 or P5, so your question is moot.

When I started the thread, people were kicking around the idea of whether securing BYU (or Boise State) as #12 for football would elevate AAC to P6 status. And my conclusion was, naaah.

Whats interesting is--this question hinges on what "P6" means. If the new suggested 12 team CFP format is adopted--"P6" may mean something very different than it did just a week ago when this thread began.

The thing is, as we know, "P5" has no formal meaning and never has. "P" and "G" are nicknames for the "haves" and "have nots" of FBS football.

So like all nicknames, they can't be formally eliminated. You have to change the hearts and minds of those who have tagged you as such. In the case of the AAC, its media and bowl deals and lack of brands tag it as clearly a "G" conference.

And dominating the NY6 spot hasn't changed that. Could dominating a playoff spot? Time will tell.
06-21-2021 04:53 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #98
RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
AAC West:
BYU
Boise State
Houston
SMU
Memphis
Navy
Wichita State

AAC East:
Cincinnati
UCF
USF
Temple
ECU
Appalachian State


Now, I left off Tulsa and Tulane, and you would have a good lineup in both east and west to make P6 status.
06-21-2021 05:54 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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RE: Sorry guys, AAC plus BYU (or plus BYU, Boise, and #14) does not add up to a P6
(06-21-2021 04:53 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  The thing is, as we know, "P5" has no formal meaning and never has. "P" and "G" are nicknames for the "haves" and "have nots" of FBS football.

As with some nicknames, the Go5 has a formal meaning, but it is rooted in the current CFP contract and could vanish in the next one if different negotiating positions are formed ... but that doesn't automatically mean that the nickname will expire.

As with some other nicknames, the P5 is just stating the obvious ... "Red" for the guy with red hair".

As to whether getting into the first round of the playoff will be different from getting into an Access Bowl which would seriously rather it was the next available P5 school ... I think where Boise State got its notoriety was not just in horning in on big name bowls under the various BCS hurdles, but rather in winning some of them, and the 12 team format offers a really big stage for a school that can win its way to a first round and then win that first round game.

So that a couple of times with a couple of different champions, and attitudes will shift (unless, of course, those schools then get poached).
(This post was last modified: 06-22-2021 05:58 AM by BruceMcF.)
06-22-2021 05:47 AM
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