(03-28-2021 09:22 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  My point is that issues such as envy and endowments are really just excuses.

Clemson and FSU are carrying the conference value. They have lower endowments than most ACC members, and get lower payouts than their in-state rivals. These challenges aren’t debilitating their efforts in football.

Changing conferences doesn’t help address the problems with football.

Wow,

(03-28-2021 10:03 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-28-2021 09:22 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  My point is that issues such as envy and endowments are really just excuses.

Clemson and FSU are carrying the conference value. They have lower endowments than most ACC members, and get lower payouts than their in-state rivals. These challenges aren’t debilitating their efforts in football.

Changing conferences doesn’t help address the problems with football.

Wow,

Having a medical school, or other graduate health programs, in and of themselves, has nearly zero impact on athletics.

(03-29-2021 08:34 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(03-28-2021 10:03 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-28-2021 09:22 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  My point is that issues such as envy and endowments are really just excuses.

Clemson and FSU are carrying the conference value. They have lower endowments than most ACC members, and get lower payouts than their in-state rivals. These challenges aren’t debilitating their efforts in football.

Changing conferences doesn’t help address the problems with football.

Wow,

Having a medical school, or other graduate health programs, in and of themselves, has nearly zero impact on athletics.

Don't most schools have separate endowments for academics and for athletics?
(Perhaps more than two, in fact?)

(03-29-2021 12:43 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(03-29-2021 08:34 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(03-28-2021 10:03 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-28-2021 09:22 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  My point is that issues such as envy and endowments are really just excuses.

Clemson and FSU are carrying the conference value. They have lower endowments than most ACC members, and get lower payouts than their in-state rivals. These challenges aren’t debilitating their efforts in football.

Changing conferences doesn’t help address the problems with football.

Wow,

Having a medical school, or other graduate health programs, in and of themselves, has nearly zero impact on athletics.

Don't most schools have separate endowments for academics and for athletics?
(Perhaps more than two, in fact?)

It depends on the institution. There is often one investment pool and endowed funds, to simplify the description, essentially buy shares in that pool, not unlike a mutual fund. Endowed funds purposed for medical schools aren't going to fund anything in athletics, or vice versa. The thing that mostly matters for athletics, as far as endowments, is the size of the endowed funds devoted specifically to athletics.

Medical schools often operate quite independently. It really is not a factor for athletics at all, as Notre Dame, Alabama, and Clemson all demonstrate, among others.

Paco - here is the connection - certain graduate education programs lead to careers where the primary person has access to cash and makes a lot of cash money. The best example is a Dentist, the second best is an Attorney. Now, other people make money, but graduate degrees in Engineering or Textiles is not an entry to the world of cash money. Moreover, the lack of said programs over say the last 100 years will mean that the school without is not minting ANY dentists, attorneys, medical doctors, etc., etc., that are beholden to one alma mater. The demographics of your alumni base is what matters and your offerings can dictate some of those demographics. As a Pitt person you would not be aware of this as Pitt can offer what in the Hell is wants to offer.

Hokie - the overall endowment for the academic side is indicator of how much money the University as a whole has access to - not what they are willing to spend, but what type of wealth they can tap when they need some money. Of course most endowments are discrete of one another for accounting or legal purposes but if you want to know who has rich alumni or what school has multi-generational wealth behind it, the overall academic endowment is the thing to look at.

Duke, UVa, BC, and ND can make money appear out of the air if they need that money. They can make it appear for a new dorm or to fire the basketball coach. UNC and WF and Miami can't quite make it materialize with a single phone call but they will raise what they want to raise.

Clemson, FSU, NC State, and VT are different. When you are a 100 to 150 years younger than your rivals, you are at a disadvantage. If you did not offer lucrative cash generating programs of the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, etc., you are at a disadvantage as compared to your rivals. When you are much younger, and much poorer comparatively, you have to compete with your eggs all in one basket and without allowing any rival or outside force to tip over your basket.

Every time an athlete gets into trouble and needs an attorney and every time the athletes momma or daddy or little sister got sick and needed a doctor, and every time they needed a prescription filled or a tooth pulled, that's a point of contract between the University and that athlete. Cow colleges without med schools, law schools, pharmacy schools, dental schools, etc., are at a structural disadvantage that they can usually only overcome with lots of walking around money and a very blind eye toward marginal students and characters - all things being equal.

In the State of NC a 15 year old athlete will have had 10-20 visits to the doctor and been around for at least a dozen prescriptions filled. He probably has been to a hospital for a relative. Unless he needed to save a horse or a bull, he will not deal with people who have placed their NC State undergraduate degree on the wall. That kid will not give the first thought to the food he buys, the buildings that he enters, or if his electricity is generated by Uranium or Rodents running on a wheel.

The constant soft influences matter as much as the overt and public efforts.

Duke has three major endowments that relate to NC. The University has $9 Billion. The detached endowment has $4 Billion. The Hospital has $3 Billion. That's a lot of damn money and while it is not completely fungible, every graduate, every employee, and every family member are connected (With the possible exception of Stephen Miller).

Notre Dame has a 13 B endowment, the Pope, the Catholic Church, and Touchdown Jesus working for them. (No Pedo State jokes)

UVa has 10 Billion
Pitt has about 4.5 Billion
UNC has about 4 Billion

It's nice to have a research hospital system and cash.

BC has 2.5 Billion and had a booster pay for their last trip to California.
GT has 2.2 Billion but UGa and Calculus take turns holding them back.

FSU has 1.7 B, NC State has 1.6 B, VT, Syracuse, and WF have 1.4 B

Duke doesn't need to have revenue to have a sports program. Even their basketball revenue is a means to a greater ends. You know who raises the most money for the regular Duke Endowment, not the Iron Dukes? Yep, Coach K. You know that old chestnut about the tail wagging the dog?, sometimes the tail is also the dog.

The Clemson's, Alabama's, FSU's, and Auburn's of the world have to "work for a living". They need ticket revenue and donations specifically tied to football to afford football. That's one of the reasons it's so damn central their sense of being.

LOL. Really, LMFAO.

(03-28-2021 05:18 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-28-2021 01:51 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Fascinating how similar this discussion about NCState is to Maryland’s move. The envy towards Duke & UNC. The incremental money in the SEC or BIG.

FSU and Clemson carry the conference’s media value. But the issue is not how to emulate their success.

If NC State wanted to emulate Clemson's football success they would need to be cut loose from the UNC Board of Governors and have their own governance such as VT and Clemson have.

NC State can do only what the UNC BOG allows them to do. The vast majority of BOG members up until the last few years have been UNC-Ch graduates, third and fourth generation UNC-Ch alums, etc.

There is a bit of a similarity to Maryland in that their problems can be traced back to the 1970 decision to strip Maryland of certain graduate programs and to place those programs in Baltimore and having weak morons installed as a puppet president has hurt both MD and NC State in the past.

Having an $8 billion and a $4 billion endowment as well as a world class medical research center is something to be envious of and having only a $1.6 billion dollar endowment and a Veterinary research hospital is a drag on NC State. If you do not have Medical, Dental, Legal, Nursing, and Public Health graduate programs, you are in a world of hurt relative to your ability to raise "easy walking around money".

Ahhhhh!!!! Now I see, Statefan, why you were on board with an private or a public related NC State. I really wish I knew what the exact differences were between a public university, a state-related institution, and a private university. Maybe CrazyPaco can shed a detailed light on this subject, because it has really fascinated me!! The reason as to why it is interesting to me is I believe, if thoroughly studied and implemented well, it would allow Georgia Tech to be on a almost similar academic level to MIT or Caltech.
It would give NC State the freedom to be more of an Auburn-like institution, although tuition would be pretty expensive.

I am wondering if U of O and Oregon State are, for all practical intents and purposes, state related institutions of the state of Oregon now instead of state institutions like UGa, 'Bama, Auburn, etc.

(03-25-2021 01:21 PM)ken d Wrote:  If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?

Interesting question Ken, but I don't think the State folks are that stupid.
They actually have a good thing going. They can compete in the ACC without having to raise tons of cash, or compete with schools that can fill stadiums with almost twice the number that Carter-Finley holds.
Leaving the ACC would mean that State would lose their #1 marketing tool, which in turn would cost them millions in contributions.........hatred of Carolina. The relationship is symbiotic. The more State fans hate Carolina, the more Carolina fans belittle State and round and round it goes. It has worked to bring in multitudes of T-shirt fans into the rivalry which has grown from an insignificant late September-early October contest to season ending football hate-fest (a game that Duke could no longer provide for Carolina in football).
Like I said, not any of the State athletic department/administration/BOT/BOG are that stupid.

(03-30-2021 12:39 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(03-28-2021 05:18 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-28-2021 01:51 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Fascinating how similar this discussion about NCState is to Maryland’s move. The envy towards Duke & UNC. The incremental money in the SEC or BIG.

FSU and Clemson carry the conference’s media value. But the issue is not how to emulate their success.

If NC State wanted to emulate Clemson's football success they would need to be cut loose from the UNC Board of Governors and have their own governance such as VT and Clemson have.

NC State can do only what the UNC BOG allows them to do. The vast majority of BOG members up until the last few years have been UNC-Ch graduates, third and fourth generation UNC-Ch alums, etc.

There is a bit of a similarity to Maryland in that their problems can be traced back to the 1970 decision to strip Maryland of certain graduate programs and to place those programs in Baltimore and having weak morons installed as a puppet president has hurt both MD and NC State in the past.

Having an $8 billion and a $4 billion endowment as well as a world class medical research center is something to be envious of and having only a $1.6 billion dollar endowment and a Veterinary research hospital is a drag on NC State. If you do not have Medical, Dental, Legal, Nursing, and Public Health graduate programs, you are in a world of hurt relative to your ability to raise "easy walking around money".

Ahhhhh!!!! Now I see, Statefan, why you were on board with an private or a public related NC State. I really wish I knew what the exact differences were between a public university, a state-related institution, and a private university. Maybe CrazyPaco can shed a detailed light on this subject, because it has really fascinated me!! The reason as to why it is interesting to me is I believe, if thoroughly studied and implemented well, it would allow Georgia Tech to be on a almost similar academic level to MIT or Caltech.
It would give NC State the freedom to be more of an Auburn-like institution, although tuition would be pretty expensive.

I am wondering if U of O and Oregon State are, for all practical intents and purposes, state related institutions of the state of Oregon now instead of state institutions like UGa, 'Bama, Auburn, etc.

Tech is already there. Just look at their in-state vs. out of state enrollment.

(03-30-2021 12:39 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(03-28-2021 05:18 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-28-2021 01:51 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Fascinating how similar this discussion about NCState is to Maryland’s move. The envy towards Duke & UNC. The incremental money in the SEC or BIG.

FSU and Clemson carry the conference’s media value. But the issue is not how to emulate their success.

If NC State wanted to emulate Clemson's football success they would need to be cut loose from the UNC Board of Governors and have their own governance such as VT and Clemson have.

NC State can do only what the UNC BOG allows them to do. The vast majority of BOG members up until the last few years have been UNC-Ch graduates, third and fourth generation UNC-Ch alums, etc.

There is a bit of a similarity to Maryland in that their problems can be traced back to the 1970 decision to strip Maryland of certain graduate programs and to place those programs in Baltimore and having weak morons installed as a puppet president has hurt both MD and NC State in the past.

Having an $8 billion and a $4 billion endowment as well as a world class medical research center is something to be envious of and having only a $1.6 billion dollar endowment and a Veterinary research hospital is a drag on NC State. If you do not have Medical, Dental, Legal, Nursing, and Public Health graduate programs, you are in a world of hurt relative to your ability to raise "easy walking around money".

Ahhhhh!!!! Now I see, Statefan, why you were on board with an private or a public related NC State. I really wish I knew what the exact differences were between a public university, a state-related institution, and a private university. Maybe CrazyPaco can shed a detailed light on this subject, because it has really fascinated me!! The reason as to why it is interesting to me is I believe, if thoroughly studied and implemented well, it would allow Georgia Tech to be on a almost similar academic level to MIT or Caltech.
It would give NC State the freedom to be more of an Auburn-like institution, although tuition would be pretty expensive.

I am wondering if U of O and Oregon State are, for all practical intents and purposes, state related institutions of the state of Oregon now instead of state institutions like UGa, 'Bama, Auburn, etc.

Public institutions come in all shapes and sizes. It is not easy to compare across the spectrum of how they are set up. State-relateds also differ from each other, although there are much fewer of them. But even in the same system in Pennsylvania, Penn State is different (more functionally like a state public) than Pitt, Temple, and Lincoln.

Essentially, state-relateds aren't owned or governed by the state, but receive state-financial support, typically much less than a fully public university, in return for reduced tuition rates for the citizens of the state. Regardless, it is still significant financial support, so that it there are powerful financial ties to the state and the state can wield undue influence via its purse strings.

For practical purposes, state-relateds usually "feel" more like public universities than private in the way they operate and conduct business. Becoming state-related from a public isn't going to turn anyone into MIT, and becoming fully private will come with lots of headaches for that transition that would take decades and tremendous financial and legal resources to overcome. The problems with the loss of significant and fairly reliable annual income that can only be made up by substantial tuition increases is not to be underestimated, especially in these days of intense scrutiny of the costs of higher education. No academic administrator is looking to voluntarily cut $100s of millions, let alone even $1 million, out of their annual budgets. And none of these issues have an iota to do with athletics. Actually, the hypothetical of a public going private would typically make athletic departments lives much more difficult because their cost to operate is going to skyrocket.

(03-30-2021 12:39 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(03-28-2021 05:18 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-28-2021 01:51 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Fascinating how similar this discussion about NCState is to Maryland’s move. The envy towards Duke & UNC. The incremental money in the SEC or BIG.

FSU and Clemson carry the conference’s media value. But the issue is not how to emulate their success.

If NC State wanted to emulate Clemson's football success they would need to be cut loose from the UNC Board of Governors and have their own governance such as VT and Clemson have.

NC State can do only what the UNC BOG allows them to do. The vast majority of BOG members up until the last few years have been UNC-Ch graduates, third and fourth generation UNC-Ch alums, etc.

There is a bit of a similarity to Maryland in that their problems can be traced back to the 1970 decision to strip Maryland of certain graduate programs and to place those programs in Baltimore and having weak morons installed as a puppet president has hurt both MD and NC State in the past.

Having an $8 billion and a $4 billion endowment as well as a world class medical research center is something to be envious of and having only a $1.6 billion dollar endowment and a Veterinary research hospital is a drag on NC State. If you do not have Medical, Dental, Legal, Nursing, and Public Health graduate programs, you are in a world of hurt relative to your ability to raise "easy walking around money".

Ahhhhh!!!! Now I see, Statefan, why you were on board with an private or a public related NC State. I really wish I knew what the exact differences were between a public university, a state-related institution, and a private university. Maybe CrazyPaco can shed a detailed light on this subject, because it has really fascinated me!! The reason as to why it is interesting to me is I believe, if thoroughly studied and implemented well, it would allow Georgia Tech to be on a almost similar academic level to MIT or Caltech.
It would give NC State the freedom to be more of an Auburn-like institution, although tuition would be pretty expensive.

I am wondering if U of O and Oregon State are, for all practical intents and purposes, state related institutions of the state of Oregon now instead of state institutions like UGa, 'Bama, Auburn, etc.

Typically a public higher education institution is something that is written into a State's Constitution. Governance and the books are open to the public in that State. If they are in a "Dillion's Rule" State, they are just another creature of that State. The term "public related" is really a stretch because it indicates that the State has bought some seats on the University's Board in exchange for a annual donation to the school, but the State does not have the legal mandate to fund that school.

If the school controls and appoints the members of its own board, it does what it wants -Duke, WF, BC

If the school controls and appoints a majority of its own board and the State appoints some then you have Clemson and FSU

If the school is part of a system and that school controls that system's appointments for whatever reason you have UNC

If your school is independent but all appointments come from the Governor you have UVa and VT.

If you school is part of a system and does not control the appointments in the System and must operate under the appointments of people not connected to their school by political entities such as the Legislature and Governor you have NC State and Mississippi State.

Keeping Pa students from fleeing to Va, VT, NC State, UNC, SC, Clemson, as well as other Southeastern schools is part of the cause of the Pa subsidy of in state students. When I taught at VT I was amazed at first regarding the number of kids from Jersey and Pa until I found out the cost differentials even taking into account an initial out of state status.

http://578125292684560794.weebly.com/dillons-rule.html

DILLON'S RULE
Picture
The Dillon Rule doctrine is derived from John Forrest Dillon (1831-1914), Chief Justice of the Iowa Supreme Court, in decisions emanating during the June term in 1868:

“The true view is this: Municipal corporations owe their origin to, and derive their powers and rights wholly from the legislature. It breathes into them the breath of life, without which they cannot exist. As it creates, so may it destroy. If it may destroy; it may abridge and control. Unless there is some constitutional limitation on the right, the legislature might, by single act, if we can suppose it capable of so great a folly and so great a wrong, sweep from existence all of the municipal corporations in the state, and the corporation could not prevent it. … They are, so to phrase it, the mere tenants at will of the legislature” (City of Clinton v. Cedar Rapids and Missouri Railroad Company)

“It is a general and undisputed proposition of law that a municipal corporation possesses and can exercise the following powers, and no others: first, those granted in express words; second, those necessarily or fairly implied in or incident to the powers expressly granted; third, those essential to the accomplishment of the declared objects and purposes of the corporation—not simply convenient, but indispensable. Any fair, reasonable, substantial doubt concerning the existence of power is resolved by the courts against the corporation, and the power is denied.” (Merriam v Moody’s Executors)

Thirty-nine states apply Dillon's Rule - 31 to all localities and eight more to selected localities. Only 10 states do not subscribe to Dillon's Rule at all.

Most people don't have the time or inclination to actually read the Constitutions or enabling legislation that relates to a particular "public" university, but unless you have that info, you are guessing as to their actual versus stated status. And as most of know, if you have your independence and you have money you can do what the Hell you want to do. If not you need to ask "mother may I" and mother might say no.

Here is how Auburn is run:

Membership on the Board includes one member from each of Alabama’s congressional districts as the same were constituted on Jan. 1, 1961; one member from Lee County; three at-large members who shall be residents of the continental United States; two additional at-large members who shall be residents of the continental United States and who shall enhance the diversity of the Board by reflecting the racial, gender, and economic diversity of the State; and the Governor, who is the ex-officio President of the Board.

Trustees are appointed by a constitutionally created committee, by and with the consent of the State Senate. Each confirmed Trustee shall serve for a term of seven years and until a successor is confirmed, but in no case for more than one year after a completion of a term. Trustees may serve no more than two full terms. No more than three trustees may be confirmed in any given year so as to ensure that Board terms remain staggered. Consistent with an executive order of the Governor in 1971, the SGA Presidents from Auburn University and Auburn University at Montgomery serve as non-voting ex-officio members of the Board. Members of the board receive no compensation.

Most importantly Auburn can do what it wants - https://sites.auburn.edu/admin/universit...-Laws.pdf.

Here in NC, all public institutions have to get permission from the UNC Board of Governors to do anything new - the Board of course is located in Chapel Hill - just as a matter of convenience. If ECU wants an Engineering program they have to ask Chapel Hill. If UNC-G wants a dental school it must ask Chapel Hill. If UNC-Charlotte wants a medical school, they have to ask Chapel Hill. This is why Wake Forest is starting a new medical school in Charlotte with Atrium. This system of control under UNC goes back to 1931.

In the State of NC the greatest power in the State other than that delivered by tons of cash is the ability to have a say in the population of the doctoral level programs. Much business, many donations, and much political capital is spent on this. Seats in NC State's Vet school, Carolina's Medical, Pharmacy, and Dental school are entrees to the world of potential cash money. This is the way the State of NC operates.

(03-29-2021 10:57 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  LOL. Really, LMFAO.

I'm glad money doesn't have anything to do with anything at Pitt. No wonder you are so successful as compared to PSU.

(03-30-2021 03:39 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-29-2021 10:57 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  LOL. Really, LMFAO.

I'm glad money doesn't have anything to do with anything at Pitt. No wonder you are so successful as compared to PSU.

Money has a lot to do with everything. But medical schools, and their financial circumstances whatever they may be, and they can vary quite a bit, have zero to do with athletics. The idea that merely adding professional schools would somehow facilitate a university to have "walking around money" is just flat incorrect. You also don't seem to know much about Pitt, which is understandable.

(03-30-2021 07:10 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(03-30-2021 03:39 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-29-2021 10:57 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  LOL. Really, LMFAO.

I'm glad money doesn't have anything to do with anything at Pitt. No wonder you are so successful as compared to PSU.

Money has a lot to do with everything. But medical schools, and their financial circumstances whatever they may be, and they can vary quite a bit, have zero to do with athletics. The idea that merely adding professional schools would somehow facilitate a university to have "walking around money" is just flat incorrect. You also don't seem to know much about Pitt, which is understandable.

Correlation is not causation and you seem to think that I think the correlation between **** tons of money, especially cash money is the causation of a healthy athletic program. I do not, nor did I say that. What I asserted was a correlation between certain programs and an overall endowment with a successful sports program, the correlation being the effects of aggregating money which itself is just an expression of power and influence.

Duke has the money to do anything it wants, when it wants. It choses to be only so competitive in Football because it does not want what comes with a nationally competitive football program and the Iron Dukes are okay with that.

(03-30-2021 03:06 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-30-2021 12:39 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(03-28-2021 05:18 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-28-2021 01:51 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Fascinating how similar this discussion about NCState is to Maryland’s move. The envy towards Duke & UNC. The incremental money in the SEC or BIG.

FSU and Clemson carry the conference’s media value. But the issue is not how to emulate their success.

If NC State wanted to emulate Clemson's football success they would need to be cut loose from the UNC Board of Governors and have their own governance such as VT and Clemson have.

NC State can do only what the UNC BOG allows them to do. The vast majority of BOG members up until the last few years have been UNC-Ch graduates, third and fourth generation UNC-Ch alums, etc.

There is a bit of a similarity to Maryland in that their problems can be traced back to the 1970 decision to strip Maryland of certain graduate programs and to place those programs in Baltimore and having weak morons installed as a puppet president has hurt both MD and NC State in the past.

Having an $8 billion and a $4 billion endowment as well as a world class medical research center is something to be envious of and having only a $1.6 billion dollar endowment and a Veterinary research hospital is a drag on NC State. If you do not have Medical, Dental, Legal, Nursing, and Public Health graduate programs, you are in a world of hurt relative to your ability to raise "easy walking around money".

Ahhhhh!!!! Now I see, Statefan, why you were on board with an private or a public related NC State. I really wish I knew what the exact differences were between a public university, a state-related institution, and a private university. Maybe CrazyPaco can shed a detailed light on this subject, because it has really fascinated me!! The reason as to why it is interesting to me is I believe, if thoroughly studied and implemented well, it would allow Georgia Tech to be on a almost similar academic level to MIT or Caltech.
It would give NC State the freedom to be more of an Auburn-like institution, although tuition would be pretty expensive.

I am wondering if U of O and Oregon State are, for all practical intents and purposes, state related institutions of the state of Oregon now instead of state institutions like UGa, 'Bama, Auburn, etc.

Typically a public higher education institution is something that is written into a State's Constitution. Governance and the books are open to the public in that State. If they are in a "Dillion's Rule" State, they are just another creature of that State. The term "public related" is really a stretch because it indicates that the State has bought some seats on the University's Board in exchange for a annual donation to the school, but the State does not have the legal mandate to fund that school.

If the school controls and appoints the members of its own board, it does what it wants -Duke, WF, BC

If the school controls and appoints a majority of its own board and the State appoints some then you have Clemson and FSU

If the school is part of a system and that school controls that system's appointments for whatever reason you have UNC

If your school is independent but all appointments come from the Governor you have UVa and VT.

If you school is part of a system and does not control the appointments in the System and must operate under the appointments of people not connected to their school by political entities such as the Legislature and Governor you have NC State and Mississippi State.

I knew NC State was like that, but was unaware Mississippi State was like that as well. I always thought they were more like Auburn and Texas A&M- more independent. Georgia Tech is definitely like NC State because, even though I personally disagree with this, UGa (according to what I have heard from Tech fans) controls the USOG, much like UNC does with the state of NC equivalent of the USOG.

However, there are trade-offs. The state government of Georgia requires UGa to make taking in Georgia students a priority. Not so at Georgia Tech who is pretty much left alone to pull in students from wherever they want. You could argue that UGa, Clemson, Auburn, and Tennessee serve far more Georgia kids than Georgia Tech does. In football recruiting for years, Georgia, Auburn, Clemson, and Tennessee recruited far more Georgia players than Georgia Tech did. Thank God, Tech's current coach is putting more of an emphasis on in-state recruiting than his predecessors.

Out of State enrollment at State and Carolina is capped at 18%. Of course Carolina cheats this and converts the out of state kids to in state as soon as possible

VT did this as well.

To compete at the top level you have leave little girl and old lady ethics at the door in favor of the larger picture.

When I was at Duke, I was astounded to hear full professors asking students about homework, but once enrolled at Duke, Duke took it as their failure if you did not graduate and only a very small slice had no business being there. At Carolina the athletes, especially the black males, were treated as exploited children by much of the faculty. And that is a view that is easy to defend. Good old egalitarian State College treated everyone like **** and if you were an athlete that had no business at State College, you were encouraged to exist the class. I saw that happen in Sociology and Political Science. It's funny how the little things define a entity. While not GT grad and only having an Emory person in the family, all I have every heard about GT goes back to calculus and "*******" differential equations.

The faculty at NC State are the ones who are most jealous of Duke and UNC. Over the years Duke faculty in particular have waived dumb jocks in State's face, but not Carolina's. This is how you end up with your best running back suspended for a bunch of games because he was riding his moped on the sidewalk.

I think the path to a healthy ACC relative to the Big 10 and SEC is to get Duke off the football field. They tried to mothball the program in the 90's and got the come to Jesus scolding from Swofford but no amount of harangue is going to change the fundamentals - top egghead schools, and schools that are tracking toward being heavily female just don't support football.

When a university has established a top academic reputation, they no longer need football to generate media interest and casual support. Universities that have been historically average can use the football program to gin up out of state applications that over time begin to alter the profile of the average student.

(04-01-2021 02:29 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Out of State enrollment at State and Carolina is capped at 18%. Of course Carolina cheats this and converts the out of state kids to in state as soon as possible

VT did this as well.

To compete at the top level you have leave little girl and old lady ethics at the door in favor of the larger picture.

When I was at Duke, I was astounded to hear full professors asking students about homework, but once enrolled at Duke, Duke took it as their failure if you did not graduate and only a very small slice had no business being there. At Carolina the athletes, especially the black males, were treated as exploited children by much of the faculty. And that is a view that is easy to defend. Good old egalitarian State College treated everyone like **** and if you were an athlete that had no business at State College, you were encouraged to exist the class. I saw that happen in Sociology and Political Science. It's funny how the little things define a entity. While not GT grad and only having an Emory person in the family, all I have every heard about GT goes back to calculus and "*******" differential equations.

The faculty at NC State are the ones who are most jealous of Duke and UNC. Over the years Duke faculty in particular have waived dumb jocks in State's face, but not Carolina's. This is how you end up with your best running back suspended for a bunch of games because he was riding his moped on the sidewalk.

I think the path to a healthy ACC relative to the Big 10 and SEC is to get Duke off the football field. They tried to mothball the program in the 90's and got the come to Jesus scolding from Swofford but no amount of harangue is going to change the fundamentals - top egghead schools, and schools that are tracking toward being heavily female just don't support football.

When a university has established a top academic reputation, they no longer need football to generate media interest and casual support. Universities that have been historically average can use the football program to gin up out of state applications that over time begin to alter the profile of the average student.

Agreed. One of the few legitimate options for the ACC is to switch Duke and Wake to the "Notre Dame" deal: i.e. 20% of the ACC Tier 1 TV payout, 100% of the ACCN payout, all sports but football, but with an agreement to play 5 games per year, alternating 2 or 3 home/away games.

Duke and Wake could play UNC, NC State, UVA, GT, and one other team. They would get less money, but they could focus most of it on basketball. Meanwhile, UNC, NC State, UVA and GT could still play one or two "true" P5 opponents every year without having an unrealistically difficult schedule.

Win-win.

I can understand Wake Forest but Duke with Coach K and all his national championships having to accept second class status? They're one of the biggest reasons the ACC is normally the #1 conference in men's basketball. If you're not willing to bend for the premiere men's basketball school in the country, you're not the ACC, you're the SEC. I wouldn't put up with this partial member crap if I were Duke, I'd call the Big Ten and take UNC with us.