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What is the future of the Southland Conference?
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AZcats Offline
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Post: #221
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(06-09-2021 12:15 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 11:23 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 08:02 AM)OscarWildeCat Wrote:  
(06-08-2021 05:44 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(06-08-2021 05:40 PM)OscarWildeCat Wrote:  There is more to It than simply adding a men’s sport. In addition to however many scholarships are needed for the new sport, an additional three dozen scholarships are required to jump up to FBS. Adding 50 or so new men’s scholarships creates a gender imbalance and Title IX problems that would likely require new women’s sports opportunities to remain in compliance.

Who says anything about jumping to FBS?

Yes, more scholarships would be needed to compete at FCS (same as any other D2 move up). And the admission fee, etc.

But solely adding a men's sport (like Cross-Country) isn't a big expense compared to all of the other costs to move up a level.

Insert FCS in my previous comment and remove FBS. The jump to FCS from D2 requires upping scholarships from 36 to 62. Add a new men’s sport into the mix such as cross country (another 12.5 scholarships) and the imbalance grows.


You are missing the point. The StuRay's original claim was that MSU couldn't upgrade (vs any other DII) because they lacked 6 men's sports.

My reply was that really isn't a big deal, since you could add a cheap men's sports.

The other costs that you mention would apply to ANY DII move-up, not just MSU.

But the argument did kick over a rock that some of us haven't thought of--we're (ahem, I'm) pulling up Lone Star Conference maps on wikipedia, maybe taking a quick look at enrollment numbers, and saying "I guess the Southland takes A&M Kingsville and A&M Commerce to shore up football." EDIT: And, furthermore, that 3 openings in the WAC and Southland make the Lone Star (football) Conference unstable, which means West Texas A&M pretty much has to make a move. (And WTA&M would pick the WAC)

But what Stugray (I think) is saying, maybe too concisely, is that most Division II schools aren't in the position that West Texas A&M is or (I assume) Tarleton State and Dixie State were a couple of years ago, where they wer 80 or 90% prepared for Division I, mostly just lacking an invite.

Is that about right? When Dixie State and Tarleton State were invited, did they have to add a couple of sports, in addition to adding scholarships and everything else?

I'll try to explain better. When I am looking for schools to potentially move to D2 the first thing I examine is how many and what sports they sponsor. If they don't meet NCAA and D2 requirements I remove them from the list. Then I look at enrollment and location to help determine the best conference fit.

D1 requires more sports sponsored by a school than D2. As of now, only in terms of the breakdown of number of sports sponsored, Midwestern State is one of about 100 D2 schools who are not eligible for D1. Sure, MSU can easily add a sport but that is just step one; step two would be all that needs to be done for a potential D1 move.

When Dixie State and Tarleton State received their WAC invitations, DSU already had 6m/9w sports and TSU already had 6m/8w sports. So both schools met the D1 requirement of sponsoring at least 7/7 or 6m/8w sports. TSU has since added women's soccer.

Of course there is a lot more involved in moving to a different division, most relating to finances, but in my view the sports sponsored is a basic requirement that needs to be met first. This is the reason I was stunned by the D2 Peach Belt Conference inviting South Carolina-Beaufort to join from the NAIA. USCB sponsors the right number of sports and they participate in all three seasons for both genders but they have only 1 men's team sport. They will need to add a men's team sport (basketball) before they can join the NCAA.
06-09-2021 03:33 PM
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BullsFanInTX Offline
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Post: #222
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
Haha. Midwestern State can easily add a sport or two. Not a biggie. Their stadium seats 15K. They are competitive in the LSC, and as a former resident of Wichita Falls, I would like to see it. They are just as good of an option as anyone.
06-09-2021 08:31 PM
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Post: #223
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
If it were 2010 or so I’d say Arkansas Tech and Harding (Ark) would be possibles.

Both were saber rattling about Division I, supposedly Harding was shopping a hoops league and thinking Pioneer for football and had some conversations with Southland but the SLC was seeking someone to play football and at the time Harding couldn’t afford to play 63 scholarship football.

With the GAC forming I think both are content.
06-09-2021 10:57 PM
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SMUstang Offline
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Post: #224
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
In my opinion the Southland will go for Commerce and Kingsville. JMO
06-10-2021 08:40 AM
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Post: #225
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(06-10-2021 08:40 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  In my opinion the Southland will go for Commerce and Kingsville. JMO

Seems reasonable. Wouldn’t they prefer the WAC if they were going to come up?
06-10-2021 08:48 AM
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Post: #226
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(06-10-2021 08:48 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(06-10-2021 08:40 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  In my opinion the Southland will go for Commerce and Kingsville. JMO

Seems reasonable. Wouldn’t they prefer the WAC if they were going to come up?

Possibly but I think the WAC would prefer WTAMU and they only have room for one. JMO
06-10-2021 08:54 AM
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Post: #227
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(06-09-2021 10:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  If it were 2010 or so I’d say Arkansas Tech and Harding (Ark) would be possibles.

Both were saber rattling about Division I, supposedly Harding was shopping a hoops league and thinking Pioneer for football and had some conversations with Southland but the SLC was seeking someone to play football and at the time Harding couldn’t afford to play 63 scholarship football.

With the GAC forming I think both are content.

Not really possible in 2010.

There might have been a little extra noise from Harding but it all died quickly. Harding was and still is today in a better position for D1 than Tech. One reason the GAC was formed was to reduce travel and missed class time, that goal would not be accomplished in the Southland and maybe worse than the Gulf South. Also at that time Tech would have to add 2 men and at least 3 women sports to meet D1 requirements and satisfy T9 at substantial costs and a decade later we still don't have the facilities and staffing for those sports. We did add women's outdoor track for Spring 2020 competing in running and long jumping events.

Yes, we are quite content in D2 and the GAC. We just won our first NCAA title, something that would never happen in D1.
06-10-2021 11:23 AM
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Post: #228
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(06-10-2021 11:23 AM)AZcats Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 10:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  If it were 2010 or so I’d say Arkansas Tech and Harding (Ark) would be possibles.

Both were saber rattling about Division I, supposedly Harding was shopping a hoops league and thinking Pioneer for football and had some conversations with Southland but the SLC was seeking someone to play football and at the time Harding couldn’t afford to play 63 scholarship football.

With the GAC forming I think both are content.

Not really possible in 2010.

There might have been a little extra noise from Harding but it all died quickly. Harding was and still is today in a better position for D1 than Tech. One reason the GAC was formed was to reduce travel and missed class time, that goal would not be accomplished in the Southland and maybe worse than the Gulf South. Also at that time Tech would have to add 2 men and at least 3 women sports to meet D1 requirements and satisfy T9 at substantial costs and a decade later we still don't have the facilities and staffing for those sports. We did add women's outdoor track for Spring 2020 competing in running and long jumping events.

Yes, we are quite content in D2 and the GAC. We just won our first NCAA title, something that would never happen in D1.

I suspect or rather suspected the discontent with Gulf South coupled with losing the UCA rivalry to Division I spurred the talk.
06-12-2021 11:04 PM
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Post: #229
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(06-12-2021 11:04 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(06-10-2021 11:23 AM)AZcats Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 10:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  If it were 2010 or so I’d say Arkansas Tech and Harding (Ark) would be possibles.

Both were saber rattling about Division I, supposedly Harding was shopping a hoops league and thinking Pioneer for football and had some conversations with Southland but the SLC was seeking someone to play football and at the time Harding couldn’t afford to play 63 scholarship football.

With the GAC forming I think both are content.

Not really possible in 2010.

There might have been a little extra noise from Harding but it all died quickly. Harding was and still is today in a better position for D1 than Tech. One reason the GAC was formed was to reduce travel and missed class time, that goal would not be accomplished in the Southland and maybe worse than the Gulf South. Also at that time Tech would have to add 2 men and at least 3 women sports to meet D1 requirements and satisfy T9 at substantial costs and a decade later we still don't have the facilities and staffing for those sports. We did add women's outdoor track for Spring 2020 competing in running and long jumping events.

Yes, we are quite content in D2 and the GAC. We just won our first NCAA title, something that would never happen in D1.

I suspect or rather suspected the discontent with Gulf South coupled with losing the UCA rivalry to Division I spurred the talk.

Yeah, it was disappointing to lose that rival but by the time the GAC was formed it had already been 5 years since they left and we had moved on. Once you start looking at the costs of adding 5 sports then increasing funding for current sports and all the other costs associated with the move it doesn't take long to see you are looking at a very possible negative return on investment. Don't need to pay for a study to tell you that.
06-13-2021 12:18 PM
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Post: #230
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(06-13-2021 12:18 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(06-12-2021 11:04 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(06-10-2021 11:23 AM)AZcats Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 10:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  If it were 2010 or so I’d say Arkansas Tech and Harding (Ark) would be possibles.

Both were saber rattling about Division I, supposedly Harding was shopping a hoops league and thinking Pioneer for football and had some conversations with Southland but the SLC was seeking someone to play football and at the time Harding couldn’t afford to play 63 scholarship football.

With the GAC forming I think both are content.

Not really possible in 2010.

There might have been a little extra noise from Harding but it all died quickly. Harding was and still is today in a better position for D1 than Tech. One reason the GAC was formed was to reduce travel and missed class time, that goal would not be accomplished in the Southland and maybe worse than the Gulf South. Also at that time Tech would have to add 2 men and at least 3 women sports to meet D1 requirements and satisfy T9 at substantial costs and a decade later we still don't have the facilities and staffing for those sports. We did add women's outdoor track for Spring 2020 competing in running and long jumping events.

Yes, we are quite content in D2 and the GAC. We just won our first NCAA title, something that would never happen in D1.

I suspect or rather suspected the discontent with Gulf South coupled with losing the UCA rivalry to Division I spurred the talk.

Yeah, it was disappointing to lose that rival but by the time the GAC was formed it had already been 5 years since they left and we had moved on. Once you start looking at the costs of adding 5 sports then increasing funding for current sports and all the other costs associated with the move it doesn't take long to see you are looking at a very possible negative return on investment. Don't need to pay for a study to tell you that.

The same might be said about the Lone Star Conference.

SMUstang
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2021 02:51 PM by SMUstang.)
06-13-2021 01:15 PM
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Post: #231
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(06-10-2021 11:23 AM)AZcats Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 10:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  If it were 2010 or so I’d say Arkansas Tech and Harding (Ark) would be possibles.

Both were saber rattling about Division I, supposedly Harding was shopping a hoops league and thinking Pioneer for football and had some conversations with Southland but the SLC was seeking someone to play football and at the time Harding couldn’t afford to play 63 scholarship football.

With the GAC forming I think both are content.

Not really possible in 2010.

There might have been a little extra noise from Harding but it all died quickly. Harding was and still is today in a better position for D1 than Tech. One reason the GAC was formed was to reduce travel and missed class time, that goal would not be accomplished in the Southland and maybe worse than the Gulf South. Also at that time Tech would have to add 2 men and at least 3 women sports to meet D1 requirements and satisfy T9 at substantial costs and a decade later we still don't have the facilities and staffing for those sports. We did add women's outdoor track for Spring 2020 competing in running and long jumping events.

Yes, we are quite content in D2 and the GAC. We just won our first NCAA title, something that would never happen in D1.

Foremost Harding needs to turn its steady enrollment decline around.
06-13-2021 03:49 PM
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Post: #232
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(06-13-2021 12:18 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(06-12-2021 11:04 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(06-10-2021 11:23 AM)AZcats Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 10:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  If it were 2010 or so I’d say Arkansas Tech and Harding (Ark) would be possibles.

Both were saber rattling about Division I, supposedly Harding was shopping a hoops league and thinking Pioneer for football and had some conversations with Southland but the SLC was seeking someone to play football and at the time Harding couldn’t afford to play 63 scholarship football.

With the GAC forming I think both are content.

Not really possible in 2010.

There might have been a little extra noise from Harding but it all died quickly. Harding was and still is today in a better position for D1 than Tech. One reason the GAC was formed was to reduce travel and missed class time, that goal would not be accomplished in the Southland and maybe worse than the Gulf South. Also at that time Tech would have to add 2 men and at least 3 women sports to meet D1 requirements and satisfy T9 at substantial costs and a decade later we still don't have the facilities and staffing for those sports. We did add women's outdoor track for Spring 2020 competing in running and long jumping events.

Yes, we are quite content in D2 and the GAC. We just won our first NCAA title, something that would never happen in D1.

I suspect or rather suspected the discontent with Gulf South coupled with losing the UCA rivalry to Division I spurred the talk.

Yeah, it was disappointing to lose that rival but by the time the GAC was formed it had already been 5 years since they left and we had moved on. Once you start looking at the costs of adding 5 sports then increasing funding for current sports and all the other costs associated with the move it doesn't take long to see you are looking at a very possible negative return on investment. Don't need to pay for a study to tell you that.


I do think Tech can get local donars to donate money. Tysons could donate millions and get a athletic's building renamed.

With all the talk about what is going on in D2 landscape right now with a bunch of schools closing, bought out or dropping down? There is a lot of uncertainty including among the members of GAC. How many of these schools can afford D2 anymore, but the school wind up closing or dropping back to the NAIA? Arkansas Tech is the only school in the conference is more stable to stay, but they may have to look at the Southland Conference or look at the MIAA in D2. That is why I think Central Oklahoma could be making the leap to D1 soon. Making investments to upgrade facilities now, and add sports might be a much better investment than just sit there doing nothing while schools close, merge or dropped back to the NAIA. With the FCOA and all that being forced at all levels by the feds? D2 does not generate enough money to do these things, and D1 is about to cut money off from D2 and D3 for their championship sports.
06-14-2021 07:50 AM
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Post: #233
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(06-14-2021 07:50 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(06-13-2021 12:18 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(06-12-2021 11:04 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(06-10-2021 11:23 AM)AZcats Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 10:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  If it were 2010 or so I’d say Arkansas Tech and Harding (Ark) would be possibles.

Both were saber rattling about Division I, supposedly Harding was shopping a hoops league and thinking Pioneer for football and had some conversations with Southland but the SLC was seeking someone to play football and at the time Harding couldn’t afford to play 63 scholarship football.

With the GAC forming I think both are content.

Not really possible in 2010.

There might have been a little extra noise from Harding but it all died quickly. Harding was and still is today in a better position for D1 than Tech. One reason the GAC was formed was to reduce travel and missed class time, that goal would not be accomplished in the Southland and maybe worse than the Gulf South. Also at that time Tech would have to add 2 men and at least 3 women sports to meet D1 requirements and satisfy T9 at substantial costs and a decade later we still don't have the facilities and staffing for those sports. We did add women's outdoor track for Spring 2020 competing in running and long jumping events.

Yes, we are quite content in D2 and the GAC. We just won our first NCAA title, something that would never happen in D1.

I suspect or rather suspected the discontent with Gulf South coupled with losing the UCA rivalry to Division I spurred the talk.

Yeah, it was disappointing to lose that rival but by the time the GAC was formed it had already been 5 years since they left and we had moved on. Once you start looking at the costs of adding 5 sports then increasing funding for current sports and all the other costs associated with the move it doesn't take long to see you are looking at a very possible negative return on investment. Don't need to pay for a study to tell you that.


I do think Tech can get local donars to donate money. Tysons could donate millions and get a athletic's building renamed.

With all the talk about what is going on in D2 landscape right now with a bunch of schools closing, bought out or dropping down? There is a lot of uncertainty including among the members of GAC. How many of these schools can afford D2 anymore, but the school wind up closing or dropping back to the NAIA? Arkansas Tech is the only school in the conference is more stable to stay, but they may have to look at the Southland Conference or look at the MIAA in D2. That is why I think Central Oklahoma could be making the leap to D1 soon. Making investments to upgrade facilities now, and add sports might be a much better investment than just sit there doing nothing while schools close, merge or dropped back to the NAIA. With the FCOA and all that being forced at all levels by the feds? D2 does not generate enough money to do these things, and D1 is about to cut money off from D2 and D3 for their championship sports.

What is the FCOA?

SMUstang
(This post was last modified: 06-14-2021 08:47 AM by SMUstang.)
06-14-2021 08:40 AM
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Post: #234
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(06-14-2021 08:40 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  What is the FCOA?

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06-14-2021 09:19 AM
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Post: #235
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(06-14-2021 07:50 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(06-13-2021 12:18 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(06-12-2021 11:04 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(06-10-2021 11:23 AM)AZcats Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 10:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  If it were 2010 or so I’d say Arkansas Tech and Harding (Ark) would be possibles.

Both were saber rattling about Division I, supposedly Harding was shopping a hoops league and thinking Pioneer for football and had some conversations with Southland but the SLC was seeking someone to play football and at the time Harding couldn’t afford to play 63 scholarship football.

With the GAC forming I think both are content.

Not really possible in 2010.

There might have been a little extra noise from Harding but it all died quickly. Harding was and still is today in a better position for D1 than Tech. One reason the GAC was formed was to reduce travel and missed class time, that goal would not be accomplished in the Southland and maybe worse than the Gulf South. Also at that time Tech would have to add 2 men and at least 3 women sports to meet D1 requirements and satisfy T9 at substantial costs and a decade later we still don't have the facilities and staffing for those sports. We did add women's outdoor track for Spring 2020 competing in running and long jumping events.

Yes, we are quite content in D2 and the GAC. We just won our first NCAA title, something that would never happen in D1.

I suspect or rather suspected the discontent with Gulf South coupled with losing the UCA rivalry to Division I spurred the talk.

Yeah, it was disappointing to lose that rival but by the time the GAC was formed it had already been 5 years since they left and we had moved on. Once you start looking at the costs of adding 5 sports then increasing funding for current sports and all the other costs associated with the move it doesn't take long to see you are looking at a very possible negative return on investment. Don't need to pay for a study to tell you that.


I do think Tech can get local donars to donate money. Tysons could donate millions and get a athletic's building renamed.

With all the talk about what is going on in D2 landscape right now with a bunch of schools closing, bought out or dropping down? There is a lot of uncertainty including among the members of GAC. How many of these schools can afford D2 anymore, but the school wind up closing or dropping back to the NAIA? Arkansas Tech is the only school in the conference is more stable to stay, but they may have to look at the Southland Conference or look at the MIAA in D2. That is why I think Central Oklahoma could be making the leap to D1 soon. Making investments to upgrade facilities now, and add sports might be a much better investment than just sit there doing nothing while schools close, merge or dropped back to the NAIA. With the FCOA and all that being forced at all levels by the feds? D2 does not generate enough money to do these things, and D1 is about to cut money off from D2 and D3 for their championship sports.

Tyson? Really? Their headquarters are in Springdale, they might donate only pennies to Tech while their donations to the pigs is in the $millions.

How soon will Central Oklahoma make the leap? You talked about them joining CUSA more than 6 years ago even though UCO is not eligible to join D1 at all.

What is your source for this nonsense "D1 is about to cut money off from D2 and D3 for their championship sports"?
06-14-2021 12:09 PM
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TexasTerror Offline
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Post: #236
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
Have not listened to this but it may be topical for this conversation.

06-15-2021 10:35 AM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #237
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(06-15-2021 10:35 AM)TexasTerror Wrote:  Have not listened to this but it may be topical for this conversation.


Amazing. He talked to him for 45 minutes and didn't bring up the Texas schools leaving. I suspect that radio host wasn't even aware SFA and ACU left the conference. (He was praising their accomplishments.) The Comissioner didn't say anything either.
06-16-2021 03:41 AM
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Post: #238
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
Interesting. I went to HS with the track coach at SFA.
06-16-2021 05:42 AM
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Post: #239
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
Southland adds NJIT in men's and women's tennis as an affiliate member. The league is still one shy of the AQ threshold in men's tennis with now five programs. Women's tennis was already over the threshold.

NJIT will not compete in the league round robin and solely compete in the league tournament. Likely can be slotted in based on ITA rankings?

====

NJIT will join current Southland men’s tennis programs Incarnate Word, New Orleans, Nicholls and Texas A&M-Corpus Christi.

Other Southland women’s programs include Incarnate Word, McNeese, New Orleans, Nicholls, Northwestern State, Southeastern Louisiana and Texas A&M-Corpus Christi.

06-22-2021 02:00 PM
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Post: #240
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
They say it's multi-year for NJIT. Probably your typical 4 year contract, with 2 year extensions semi-automatic. Makes sense.

Men's Tennis and Men's Golf are sitting at 5, while Women's Golf and Beach Volleyball are at 4.

Looking around at unattached programs:
Beach Volleyball: a couple OVC schools they could target as affiliates (Morehead State, Tennessee Martin)
// I presume SFA and ACU staying is a non starter; besides I expect the WAC will sponsor pretty soon
Men's Golf: Francis Marion is a D-I Independent (grandfathered)
// many options in Golf with MEAC short and Big Sky soon to be short in Men's golf

LOL, if Chicago State is still D-I in 2022-23 they will be desperate for a home. That could be your 6th Men's Tennis school. But I think they'll drop out of D-I.
06-23-2021 01:24 PM
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