(01-05-2021 05:47 AM)ColumbusCard Wrote:  Another awful bowl season for the ACC. At some point we have to actually beat teams that play in other conferences

Clemson really is carrying the ACC. The last three years the ACC has been really bad in football, but it is not taking the national public perception hit it should because Clemson always makes the playoffs, and for some reason, one team making the playoffs has become the marker of football conference strength. As Delany of the B1G said last year, there is a real stigma attached to a conference when it misses the playoffs.

Stronger conferences like the PAC and B1G have taken heat the last five years and have had angsty discussions about how to get better, or whiny complaints about we should expand the playoffs, because they've had some years where they don't make the playoffs. The ACC has avoided that, thanks to Clemson.

The ACC has always been a one trick pony. Before Clemson there was Florida State for 20 years.....before them to a much lesser extent was an occasional blip from Clemson, UNC, NCSU, GT, UVa and Murlin....but nothing that set the world on fire.

I think most people forget that until about 1992, the ACC was basically C-USA when it came to football. The conference was ok with that because at the time it was still king at basketball ...and until about 2000 50% of the TV revenue came from hoops. When that figure started to drift more and more towards football, the ACC was caught with its pants down. Hence expansion.

Of course, lucky us, Miami has been pedestrian since joining the ACC. Same for the other perceived football power at the time....VT.

Think about it...Miami had arguably the best college football team of all time in 2001 and maybe 2002. VT played for the national title in 1999. But since both joined the ACC, particularly Miami, they haven't really done a whole lot.

It all sounded good at the time.

This year's bowl performance looks especially bad because of the lack of out of conference games to build the brand. However, had we played the SEC teams as usual, Clemson would be the only favorite. GT and FSU would be decided underdogs, and Louisville would be even to a slight dog.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

(01-06-2021 11:05 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  ...The last three years the ACC has been really bad in football...

Stronger conferences like the PAC...

(01-06-2021 01:22 PM)YouPeople Wrote:  The ACC has always been a one trick pony...

...Miami had arguably the best college football team of all time in 2001 and maybe 2002. VT played for the national title in 1999. But since both joined the ACC, particularly Miami, they haven't really done a whole lot...

Waitaminit! Have you guys actually been watching ACC football, or do you just get your info from social media posts?

This year the ACC had 5 teams ranked in the top 25 going into bowl season. NC State played an unranked opponent, Clemson played their "equal", Miami played a lower-ranked team, and the other two were taxed with playing higher-ranked opponents. Because of teams opting-out, Wake was promoted to face Wisconsin, a team simply out of their weight class.

Not sure how you could claim that the Pac-12 has been "stronger" than the ACC.

One-trick pony? Hardly! Consider:
2012: ACC teams win their top 4 bowls, post 4-2 record.
2013: FSU won the BCS championship, Clemson beat Ohio State; 5-6 bowl record.
2014: Clemson whipped OU, but GT also ran all over #7 Miss. State.
2015: Besides Clemson over OU again, Louisville also Texas A&M
2016: ACC goes 9-2 in bowls, including a national championship for Clemson.
2017: ACC lost both NY6 bowls, but NC State beat Arizona St and Wake Forest upset Texas A&M as the ACC went 4-6.
2018: Another "off" year. Clemson won the CFP NC in a blowout of Bama, UVA blanked U of SC 28-0, and Syracuse whipped #16 West Virginia en route to a WINNING 6-5 bowl record.
2019: Poor Bowl performance (4-7), but besides Clemson beating Ohio State we also had Louisville over Miss. State.
2020: a fluke set up by the Peters Principle.

Regarding VT -- who ended Ohio State's 25-game win streak (and I don't remember how many home non-conference win streak)?

But, sure - nobody's done anything but Clemson and FSU before them...

(01-06-2021 05:46 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 11:05 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  ...The last three years the ACC has been really bad in football...

Stronger conferences like the PAC...

(01-06-2021 01:22 PM)YouPeople Wrote:  The ACC has always been a one trick pony...

...Miami had arguably the best college football team of all time in 2001 and maybe 2002. VT played for the national title in 1999. But since both joined the ACC, particularly Miami, they haven't really done a whole lot...

Waitaminit! Have you guys actually been watching ACC football, or do you just get your info from social media posts?

This year the ACC had 5 teams ranked in the top 25 going into bowl season. NC State played an unranked opponent, Clemson played their "equal", Miami played a lower-ranked team, and the other two were taxed with playing higher-ranked opponents. Because of teams opting-out, Wake was promoted to face Wisconsin, a team simply out of their weight class.

Not sure how you could claim that the Pac-12 has been "stronger" than the ACC.

One-trick pony? Hardly! Consider:
2012: ACC teams win their top 4 bowls, post 4-2 record.
2013: FSU won the BCS championship, Clemson beat Ohio State; 5-6 bowl record.
2014: Clemson whipped OU, but GT also ran all over #7 Miss. State.
2015: Besides Clemson over OU again, Louisville also Texas A&M
2016: ACC goes 9-2 in bowls, including a national championship for Clemson.
2017: ACC lost both NY6 bowls, but NC State beat Arizona St and Wake Forest upset Texas A&M as the ACC went 4-6.
2018: Another "off" year. Clemson won the CFP NC in a blowout of Bama, UVA blanked U of SC 28-0, and Syracuse whipped #16 West Virginia en route to a WINNING 6-5 bowl record.
2019: Poor Bowl performance (4-7), but besides Clemson beating Ohio State we also had Louisville over Miss. State.
2020: a fluke set up by the Peters Principle.

Regarding VT -- who ended Ohio State's 25-game win streak (and I don't remember how many home non-conference win streak)?

But, sure - nobody's done anything but Clemson and FSU before them...

The ACC is what existed from 1933 onward. When the SEC 13 left.

Over the ensuring 30 years the SoCon/ACC was a Duke University one trick pony. 18 times over 30 years Duke either finishes first, with the best records, or a new years day bowl.

Most years the ACC had a second trick but it varied wildly - Clemson was second most successful with records and bowls to show for it, followed by MD and UNC. Then William and Mary and NC State. In that time span Clemson got screwed out of chance for a national title, and NC State got screwed out of the Orange Bowl. Starting in 1963 the 800 SAT rule changed the ACC into a no trick pony for a decade and then it became a two trick pony again by 1975 with the first trick being MD, and NC State, UNC, and Clemson rotating that second trick and by 1981 State drops out of that rotation of three.

Unlike the SEC and the Big 10 the ACC has played a round robin for many more years than those two so MD/Clemson/UNC/NC State would not miss each other in a year where they had only 1-2 losses.

The ACC is no more a one trick pony than the B10 or P12. For the last 30 years Clemson or FSU have been the pony overlaping only for two years.

If the Big 10 can not sustain an effective challenger to Ohio State, why should the ACC be able to do so with Clemson or FSU at their peak?

The key weakness in the ACC is the State of NC. There are 4 P-5's and 3 G-5's feeding from the same trough. Not to mention the problem of SW NC which is culturally and physically closer to Knoxville and Clemson and Athens than to Chapel Hill or Raleigh.

You need 5 solid recruiting classes in the top 25 to compete, plus getting the future NFL QB, when that QB is more often that not at NC State with a top 35 class, and Carolina has a mid 20's class, but Duke and WF sweep up the 2-3 super over-achieving 3 stars with IQ's in the 130's. The result is that only once a decade does UNC or NC State have a team that can actually challenge and in most those cases, they don't have the experience of the big game and therefore choke.

(01-06-2021 06:05 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 05:46 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 11:05 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  ...The last three years the ACC has been really bad in football...

Stronger conferences like the PAC...

(01-06-2021 01:22 PM)YouPeople Wrote:  The ACC has always been a one trick pony...

...Miami had arguably the best college football team of all time in 2001 and maybe 2002. VT played for the national title in 1999. But since both joined the ACC, particularly Miami, they haven't really done a whole lot...

Waitaminit! Have you guys actually been watching ACC football, or do you just get your info from social media posts?

This year the ACC had 5 teams ranked in the top 25 going into bowl season. NC State played an unranked opponent, Clemson played their "equal", Miami played a lower-ranked team, and the other two were taxed with playing higher-ranked opponents. Because of teams opting-out, Wake was promoted to face Wisconsin, a team simply out of their weight class.

Not sure how you could claim that the Pac-12 has been "stronger" than the ACC.

One-trick pony? Hardly! Consider:
2012: ACC teams win their top 4 bowls, post 4-2 record.
2013: FSU won the BCS championship, Clemson beat Ohio State; 5-6 bowl record.
2014: Clemson whipped OU, but GT also ran all over #7 Miss. State.
2015: Besides Clemson over OU again, Louisville also Texas A&M
2016: ACC goes 9-2 in bowls, including a national championship for Clemson.
2017: ACC lost both NY6 bowls, but NC State beat Arizona St and Wake Forest upset Texas A&M as the ACC went 4-6.
2018: Another "off" year. Clemson won the CFP NC in a blowout of Bama, UVA blanked U of SC 28-0, and Syracuse whipped #16 West Virginia en route to a WINNING 6-5 bowl record.
2019: Poor Bowl performance (4-7), but besides Clemson beating Ohio State we also had Louisville over Miss. State.
2020: a fluke set up by the Peters Principle.

Regarding VT -- who ended Ohio State's 25-game win streak (and I don't remember how many home non-conference win streak)?

But, sure - nobody's done anything but Clemson and FSU before them...

The ACC is what existed from 1933 onward. When the SEC 13 left.

Over the ensuring 30 years the SoCon/ACC was a Duke University one trick pony. 18 times over 30 years Duke either finishes first, with the best records, or a new years day bowl.

Most years the ACC had a second trick but it varied wildly - Clemson was second most successful with records and bowls to show for it, followed by MD and UNC. Then William and Mary and NC State. In that time span Clemson got screwed out of chance for a national title, and NC State got screwed out of the Orange Bowl. Starting in 1963 the 800 SAT rule changed the ACC into a no trick pony for a decade and then it became a two trick pony again by 1975 with the first trick being MD, and NC State, UNC, and Clemson rotating that second trick and by 1981 State drops out of that rotation of three.

Unlike the SEC and the Big 10 the ACC has played a round robin for many more years than those two so MD/Clemson/UNC/NC State would not miss each other in a year where they had only 1-2 losses.

The ACC is no more a one trick pony than the B10 or P12. For the last 30 years Clemson or FSU have been the pony overlaping only for two years.

If the Big 10 can not sustain an effective challenger to Ohio State, why should the ACC be able to do so with Clemson or FSU at their peak?

The key weakness in the ACC is the State of NC. There are 4 P-5's and 3 G-5's feeding from the same trough. Not to mention the problem of SW NC which is culturally and physically closer to Knoxville and Clemson and Athens than to Chapel Hill or Raleigh.

You need 5 solid recruiting classes in the top 25 to compete, plus getting the future NFL QB, when that QB is more often that not at NC State with a top 35 class, and Carolina has a mid 20's class, but Duke and WF sweep up the 2-3 super over-achieving 3 stars with IQ's in the 130's. The result is that only once a decade does UNC or NC State have a team that can actually challenge and in most those cases, they don't have the experience of the big game and therefore choke.

Just stop.


Wake and Duke recruit more nationally than locally. I honestly do not know when the last time that either had a recruiting class that was predominantly NC players. Hell, Duke's last recruiting class where NC was the state where they got the most players from was in 2019, and even that year NC only edged out GA by one player. In 2018 Wake signed more players from GA (7), FL (5) and SC (4) than they did NC (3). The majority of both school's depth chart comes from outside the state of NC.

Stop trying to blame NC State's shortcomings on two schools who have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Kaphony is right...it isn't really the recruiting. Instead it's as much about dividing up the fan bases/donors relative to the population in NC.

EZU is capable of filling 50K in good years even though most of their students are Dook, State and UNC basketball fans that can't read. Despite this,, the Pirates raise a lot of money and have die hard fans..
Dook and Wake being private can get 35k if the stars align. Most Dook students are yankees that couldn't give two ***** about college football. Wake at least tries to care...they just happen to be the smallest D1 school in the country. State and UNC fill 60k but UNC fans only watch football to pass time til Roy shows up.

Then you also have donors at App st. App is raising a ton of money for football. And don't forget about Charlotte now coming onto the scene. There just aren't enough dollars to go around.

The population is very diverse and spread thin in terms of fandom making it hard for any 1 school to stand out ...which is why college football isn't as big here as other places. It takes tons of fans and money from alums AND non-alums.

Much different than say Sakerlina and other states where there are just two teams playing P5 football. It's remarkable that a nothing happening state with a small population can pack 80k in both Columbia and Clemson. That will never happen in NC.

(01-06-2021 05:46 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 11:05 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  ...The last three years the ACC has been really bad in football...

Stronger conferences like the PAC...

(01-06-2021 01:22 PM)YouPeople Wrote:  The ACC has always been a one trick pony...

...Miami had arguably the best college football team of all time in 2001 and maybe 2002. VT played for the national title in 1999. But since both joined the ACC, particularly Miami, they haven't really done a whole lot...

Waitaminit! Have you guys actually been watching ACC football, or do you just get your info from social media posts?

This year the ACC had 5 teams ranked in the top 25 going into bowl season. NC State played an unranked opponent, Clemson played their "equal", Miami played a lower-ranked team, and the other two were taxed with playing higher-ranked opponents. Because of teams opting-out, Wake was promoted to face Wisconsin, a team simply out of their weight class.

Not sure how you could claim that the Pac-12 has been "stronger" than the ACC.

One-trick pony? Hardly! Consider:
2012: ACC teams win their top 4 bowls, post 4-2 record.
2013: FSU won the BCS championship, Clemson beat Ohio State; 5-6 bowl record.
2014: Clemson whipped OU, but GT also ran all over #7 Miss. State.
2015: Besides Clemson over OU again, Louisville also Texas A&M
2016: ACC goes 9-2 in bowls, including a national championship for Clemson.
2017: ACC lost both NY6 bowls, but NC State beat Arizona St and Wake Forest upset Texas A&M as the ACC went 4-6.
2018: Another "off" year. Clemson won the CFP NC in a blowout of Bama, UVA blanked U of SC 28-0, and Syracuse whipped #16 West Virginia en route to a WINNING 6-5 bowl record.
2019: Poor Bowl performance (4-7), but besides Clemson beating Ohio State we also had Louisville over Miss. State.
2020: a fluke set up by the Peters Principle.

Regarding VT -- who ended Ohio State's 25-game win streak (and I don't remember how many home non-conference win streak)?

But, sure - nobody's done anything but Clemson and FSU before them...

Can't speak for the other person you quoted but I've been watching ACC football for over 40 years. When I said one-trick pony, I meant there seems to be only one dominant (or none) at any one time. Let's see how long it takes to get another pair of ACC teams in the CFP.

(01-07-2021 10:34 AM)YouPeople Wrote:  ...When I said one-trick pony, I meant there seems to be only one dominant (or none) at any one time. Let's see how long it takes to get another pair of ACC teams in the CFP.

That's fine, but then...
...when will a B1G team not named Ohio State play for a national championship?
...when will a Big XII team besides Oklahoma or Texas?

The Pac-12 is a little deeper (USC, Washington, Oregon), though the memory is fading.

The SEC is the deepest, but even they are dominated by one team: Alabama.
Yes, LSU rose up in 2019 - then fell flat in 2020.
Yes, Auburn played for a championship in 2013.
and, yes, around the time most high school kids were born, Florida was up there...

...but if you're going that far back, you have to mention Miami, with footnotes for Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech, too.

The only way the ACC is significantly behind the other P5s is when you use a different measuring stick. Be consistent and you'll see that ACC football holds its own (and has for many years).

(01-07-2021 01:36 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-07-2021 10:34 AM)YouPeople Wrote:  ...When I said one-trick pony, I meant there seems to be only one dominant (or none) at any one time. Let's see how long it takes to get another pair of ACC teams in the CFP.

That's fine, but then...
...when will a B1G team not named Ohio State play for a national championship?
...when will a Big XII team besides Oklahoma or Texas?

The Pac-12 is a little deeper (USC, Washington, Oregon), though the memory is fading.

The SEC is the deepest, but even they are dominated by one team: Alabama.
Yes, LSU rose up in 2019 - then fell flat in 2020.
Yes, Auburn played for a championship in 2013.
and, yes, around the time most high school kids were born, Florida was up there...

...but if you're going that far back, you have to mention Miami, with footnotes for Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech, too.

The only way the ACC is significantly behind the other P5s is when you use a different measuring stick. Be consistent and you'll see that ACC football holds its own (and has for many years).

My take on why I think the ACC isn't as respected as other conferences.

The ACC is dominated by Clemson but the SEC is dominated by Alabama and the Big Ten is dominated by Ohio State. But the difference IMO is the next level of teams. In the SEC, you have Georgia, LSU, and Florida. In the Big Ten, you have Michigan, Penn State, and Wisconsin (in 2020 they all were down but all have been pretty good recently). In 2019, no ACC team other than Clemson finished with fewer than 5 losses and only Clemson finished with 10 or more wins. Five Big Ten teams and four SEC teams won 10 or more games. In 2018, you had Syracuse at 10-3 The SEC had five teams with 10 or more games. The Big Ten had only two (Penn State was "only" 9-4). In 2017 Miami was 10-3. The Big Ten had five teams with 10 or more wins. The SEC had only three but two of them (Alabama and Georgia) played for the national championship.

The top teams make the noise in the College Football Playoff semifinals/ championship but the next level teams are also important when it comes to the perception of the conference. Alabama might win almost every SEC game but you get excited when they play Georgia or LSU. Ohio State might win almost every Big Ten game but you get excited when they play Penn State. Once Notre Dame goes back to the ACC, who's the second best ACC team and what's the gap between them and Clemson? That's the problem. If the ACC had teams the level of Penn State/Michigan or Georgia/Florida, they'd be respected more. They can't have more seasons where their 2nd place team is 9-5.

(01-07-2021 07:21 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(01-07-2021 01:36 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-07-2021 10:34 AM)YouPeople Wrote:  ...When I said one-trick pony, I meant there seems to be only one dominant (or none) at any one time. Let's see how long it takes to get another pair of ACC teams in the CFP.

That's fine, but then...
...when will a B1G team not named Ohio State play for a national championship?
...when will a Big XII team besides Oklahoma or Texas?

The Pac-12 is a little deeper (USC, Washington, Oregon), though the memory is fading.

The SEC is the deepest, but even they are dominated by one team: Alabama.
Yes, LSU rose up in 2019 - then fell flat in 2020.
Yes, Auburn played for a championship in 2013.
and, yes, around the time most high school kids were born, Florida was up there...

...but if you're going that far back, you have to mention Miami, with footnotes for Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech, too.

The only way the ACC is significantly behind the other P5s is when you use a different measuring stick. Be consistent and you'll see that ACC football holds its own (and has for many years).

My take on why I think the ACC isn't as respected as other conferences.

The ACC is dominated by Clemson but the SEC is dominated by Alabama and the Big Ten is dominated by Ohio State. But the difference IMO is the next level of teams. In the SEC, you have Georgia, LSU, and Florida. In the Big Ten, you have Michigan, Penn State, and Wisconsin (in 2020 they all were down but all have been pretty good recently). In 2019, no ACC team other than Clemson finished with fewer than 5 losses and only Clemson finished with 10 or more wins. Five Big Ten teams and four SEC teams won 10 or more games. In 2018, you had Syracuse at 10-3 The SEC had five teams with 10 or more games. The Big Ten had only two (Penn State was "only" 9-4). In 2017 Miami was 10-3. The Big Ten had five teams with 10 or more wins. The SEC had only three but two of them (Alabama and Georgia) played for the national championship.

The top teams make the noise in the College Football Playoff semifinals/ championship but the next level teams are also important when it comes to the perception of the conference. Alabama might win almost every SEC game but you get excited when they play Georgia or LSU. Ohio State might win almost every Big Ten game but you get excited when they play Penn State. Once Notre Dame goes back to the ACC, who's the second best ACC team and what's the gap between them and Clemson? That's the problem. If the ACC had teams the level of Penn State/Michigan or Georgia/Florida, they'd be respected more. They can't have more seasons where their 2nd place team is 9-5.

100% Agree with statements in bold.

(01-07-2021 07:21 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(01-07-2021 01:36 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-07-2021 10:34 AM)YouPeople Wrote:  ...When I said one-trick pony, I meant there seems to be only one dominant (or none) at any one time. Let's see how long it takes to get another pair of ACC teams in the CFP.

That's fine, but then...
...when will a B1G team not named Ohio State play for a national championship?
...when will a Big XII team besides Oklahoma or Texas?

The Pac-12 is a little deeper (USC, Washington, Oregon), though the memory is fading.

The SEC is the deepest, but even they are dominated by one team: Alabama.
Yes, LSU rose up in 2019 - then fell flat in 2020.
Yes, Auburn played for a championship in 2013.
and, yes, around the time most high school kids were born, Florida was up there...

...but if you're going that far back, you have to mention Miami, with footnotes for Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech, too.

The only way the ACC is significantly behind the other P5s is when you use a different measuring stick. Be consistent and you'll see that ACC football holds its own (and has for many years).

My take on why I think the ACC isn't as respected as other conferences.

The ACC is dominated by Clemson but the SEC is dominated by Alabama and the Big Ten is dominated by Ohio State. But the difference IMO is the next level of teams. In the SEC, you have Georgia, LSU, and Florida. In the Big Ten, you have Michigan, Penn State, and Wisconsin (in 2020 they all were down but all have been pretty good recently). In 2019, no ACC team other than Clemson finished with fewer than 5 losses and only Clemson finished with 10 or more wins. Five Big Ten teams and four SEC teams won 10 or more games. In 2018, you had Syracuse at 10-3 The SEC had five teams with 10 or more games. The Big Ten had only two (Penn State was "only" 9-4). In 2017 Miami was 10-3. The Big Ten had five teams with 10 or more wins. The SEC had only three but two of them (Alabama and Georgia) played for the national championship.

The top teams make the noise in the College Football Playoff semifinals/ championship but the next level teams are also important when it comes to the perception of the conference. Alabama might win almost every SEC game but you get excited when they play Georgia or LSU. Ohio State might win almost every Big Ten game but you get excited when they play Penn State. Once Notre Dame goes back to the ACC, who's the second best ACC team and what's the gap between them and Clemson? That's the problem. If the ACC had teams the level of Penn State/Michigan or Georgia/Florida, they'd be respected more. They can't have more seasons where their 2nd place team is 9-5.

agree 10000%

I would note the following about OOC games played by the SEC and B10 from 15-19 and then 2021

Ohio State - VT/Oklahoma/Oklahoma/TCU and Cincy/Cincy - Oregon
Michigan - Utah and Oregon/Cal/Florida/ND/ND - Washington
Wisky - Bama/LSU/BYU/BYU/USF - ND
Penn State - Temple/Pitt/Pitt/Pitt/Pitt - Auburn

I consider the above programs to be the big four of the B10. Not many equal matches are there and do you see the B10 overscheduling? No

Here is the SEC in the same time frames:

Bama - Wisky/USC/FSU and Colorado State/Louisville/Duke - Miami
Florida - FSU/FSU/Michigan and FSU/FSU and Colorado State/Miami and FSU - FSU
UGa - GT/GT and UNC/ND and GT/GT/ND/GT - Clemson and GT
LSU - Syracuse/Wisky/Syracuse/Miami/Texas - UCLA
Auburn - Idaho/Clemson/Clemson/Washington/Oregon - Penn State

Of these five horses of the SEC you can see an improved OOC slate, but there is also one less conference game. Many of the OOC games are physical mismatches. Duke and Syracuse in particular should be shot for agreeing to such games.

Here are the ACC OOC games of consequence between the ACC's top 4 plus GT/UNC/NC State

Clemson - SC and Georgia
FSU - ND and Florida
Miami - Alabama and Michigan State
VT - West Virginia and Notre Dame
GT - Georgia and Notre Dame
UNC - Notre Dame and Wake Forest
NC State - Mississippi State

The ACC schools are decided dogs in 7 of the 12 games. One game is Carolina and Wake. Most of these games do nothing to help the ACC's reputation but you can't hardly get a game with the B10 or P12 as they only want to play one P-5 and they want to keep it between those two as much as possible. If your divisions are unbalanced and those at the top powerful enough you can gin up what appears to be a worthy 2nd or 3rd or 4th program when in fact you are a one horse pony with the B10 as the case in point. In the east Rutgers, MD, and Indiana have been bad enough to guarantee PSU, Ohio State, and Michigan a six win floor between OOC games and the worst of the B10.

It's not that the SEC and B10 look down on the ACC, it's that they have millions of reasons to keep the ACC down in comparison to them. The Big 10 especially is in this position. Syracuse, Duke, BC, Wake Forest, and UVa, are in great demand for Big 10 ooc games.

You get some more information by looking at the bottom of the B10 and comparing it to the bottom of the ACC.

From 2015-2019 the bottom 4 B10 schools lost 122 games to the other 10.
In the ACC the bottom 4 lost 98 games to the other 10.

That means for the last half decade, the bottom half of the Big 10 is a half a game worse than the ACC and descreprenecy is in fact a win donation to the B10's top 10. It roughs out to about half a win a year for the B10's top ten teams. With the B10 already playing one less OOC game, and not playing OOC games over their head, you end up with the top ten of the Big 10 having a over a one win advantage over a similar ACC school on an annual basis. It might not sound like much, but the top of the Big 10 looks better by the Rutgers, Illinois, Maryland, and a rotation of others being so awful.

Put another way, the middling ACC school that finished 7-5 in the ACC is likely to finish 8-4 in the B10.

At the very top of each league, aggregates don't matter. I wait with anticipation for the mathematically challenged to come forward and explain why this is wrong.

(01-08-2021 03:14 PM)Statefan Wrote:  You get some more information by looking at the bottom of the B10 and comparing it to the bottom of the ACC.

From 2015-2019 the bottom 4 B10 schools lost 122 games to the other 10.
In the ACC the bottom 4 lost 98 games to the other 10.

That means for the last half decade, the bottom half of the Big 10 is a half a game worse than the ACC and descreprenecy is in fact a win donation to the B10's top 10. It roughs out to about half a win a year for the B10's top ten teams. With the B10 already playing one less OOC game, and not playing OOC games over their head, you end up with the top ten of the Big 10 having a over a one win advantage over a similar ACC school on an annual basis. It might not sound like much, but the top of the Big 10 looks better by the Rutgers, Illinois, Maryland, and a rotation of others being so awful.

Put another way, the middling ACC school that finished 7-5 in the ACC is likely to finish 8-4 in the B10.

At the very top of each league, aggregates don't matter. I wait with anticipation for the mathematically challenged to come forward and explain why this is wrong.

No, you're absolutely right.

Between 2014-2019 (I'm going to throw out the COVID-19 year),

The worst team in the ACC based on conference games only was Syracuse at 15-33 (.313). In the Big Ten, FIVE teams (Indiana, Purdue, Maryland, Illinois, and Rutgers) had a worse conference percentage than that.

Only two ACC teams between 2014-19 won 60% or more games, Clemson (44-4, .917) and Florida State (29-19, .604). In the Big Ten, FIVE teams won 60% or more, Ohio State, Wisconsin, Michigan, Penn State, and Iowa (33-19, .635). The SEC has four teams winning 60% or more (Alabama, Georgia, LSU, and Florida). Kentucky tied Syracuse at .313. Vanderbilt and Arkansas were worse.

Of course the question is are the bad of the Big Ten that way because the good of the Big Ten is that good or is the good of the Big Ten that way because the bad of the Big Ten is that bad? Would Penn State and Wisconsin have as good records without Rutgers or Illinois? But would Rutgers or Illinois have as bad records without Penn State or Wisconsin (or Ohio State)? I think it's a little of both. Same thing in the SEC. In the ACC, throw Clemson out and the other 13 teams are probably closer together.

The strength of Clemson is such these past 5 years is that they have the practical effect of laying about 1.5 losses on you. Your game with them, and the game the week before or after. If they were magically absent the last 5 regular years I think you get:

2015: UNC 11-1 might have made playoff, if so killed in playoff
2016: VT 10-3
2017: Miami 12-1 would have made playoff, might have advanced
2018: NC State 13-0 playoff - killed in first game (State beats Syracuse not having to play Syracuse after Clemson, if State lost, 11-1 Syracuse wins ACC but has loss to ND, 11-1 NC State ACC might not get bid.
2019: UVa 10-3

Remove Clemson and you pass the Championship around but I don't see a title game appearance and three bids instead of 5. In 2020 Miami would have played ND, Miami one loss to three loss UNC. ND probably beats Miami so the "ACC" bid gets taken by ND. Loss of $6 million.

There seems to be no reward for competition, only for absolute domination.

(01-06-2021 05:46 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 11:05 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  ...The last three years the ACC has been really bad in football...

Stronger conferences like the PAC...

(01-06-2021 01:22 PM)YouPeople Wrote:  The ACC has always been a one trick pony...

...Miami had arguably the best college football team of all time in 2001 and maybe 2002. VT played for the national title in 1999. But since both joined the ACC, particularly Miami, they haven't really done a whole lot...

Waitaminit! Have you guys actually been watching ACC football, or do you just get your info from social media posts?

This year the ACC had 5 teams ranked in the top 25 going into bowl season.

The CFP was flying blind because of virtually no OOC games. The ACC teams were ranked based on playing other ACC teams, which is meaningless. Bowl season revealed the weakness.

And last year the ACC was so bad it was actually slightly worse than a G5 league, the AAC. That had never happened in the CFP or BCS era, a "power" league ranked behind a G5 or non-AQ league.

I'm just going by what the computers say. The ACC was good in 2016 and 2017, but other than that it's been bottom-barrel stuff.

As for really doing anything at the top, obviously it has been Clemson the last 6 years and FSU before then. Georgia Tech did win a NY6 bowl several years back, but my God have they fallen off the map since.