(03-16-2021 09:53 AM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(03-15-2021 08:55 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(03-14-2021 06:06 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(03-14-2021 05:28 PM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  From Spring 1961 - “UB Hopes to Join New Football Conference” ? ?

Buffalo, Boston University, Holy Cross, Rutgers, Connecticut, Villanova, Temple, Massachusetts

https://twitter.com/shollander2/status/1...85995?s=20

Anyone know the history of this, with Temple and Nova, Holy Cross and BU, talking about this possibility? Obviously UConn, UMass, and Temple not moving up killed it, and Rutgers liked being Indy, playing multiple Ivy schools and Army.

It’s interesting that Colgate wasn’t mentioned. They would have fit the profile and geography.

Colgate is toothpaste, IMO.

They did try to expand their offerings

That didn't clean your teeth as well.

Colgate has a very good 1-AA/FCS football tradition! 2 Payton Award winners and a National Title game appearance! They had some regionally competitive teams as a 1-A program but simply lacked the infrastructure to make it work. I've been to Hamilton many times (former Seven Oaks member); it's a CNY outpost. Given the academic rigor at Colgate, you need to keep a positive attitude to survive those endless gray days from late October through mid-April.

Holy Cross followed a similar path to the Patriot League under the leadership of the late Father Brooks. Granted, they were actually a pretty bad 1-A program for much of the 60s and 70s. Despite many of their alums despising the Patriot League, arguably their greatest football success of the last 70 years came in the Colonial/Patriot League in the late 80's, early 90's. Their 1987 team was definitely a national title contender. Their 1991 team could have made a run too.

I grew up in a Lehigh football family. The Mountain Hawks/Engineers have had some excellent teams dating back to the mid 70's. With a little better luck/draw they had several teams ('98, '00, '01, '04, '11 come to mind) over the last 20-25 years that could have advanced further in the playoffs. They've always had the the facilities and institutional support. Especially, relative to Lafayette.

Temple, Rutgers, Lehigh, Colgate, Holy Cross, Delaware, UMass and Villanova (along with the Ivies) are in many ways the "prominent" old guard of regional 1-A and national 1-AA and D2 football in the Northeast. As a kid in the late 80's I caught the tail end of the epic Delaware-Lehigh rivalry that really began when John Whitehead took over in Bethlehem. It's interesting the various paths each of them have taken since the late 70's, early 80's. For some of them (Temple for instance), the journey has been never ending.

(03-18-2021 06:23 PM)NJMark Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 05:20 PM)THUNDERStruck73 Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 11:34 AM)VCE Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 10:39 AM)THUNDERStruck73 Wrote:  

(03-16-2021 06:40 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  A G5 level league in the northeast would be very hard to achieve.

Buffalo, Temple, and Navy all have conferences. Army might like a scheduling agreement that gets them a few games close to home, but overall they want a national schedule.

UMass and UConn will at best, commit to football only memberships, so you’d still need 8 full members to be legit.

Villanova isn’t going to commit to a move up, and like UConn, the best you could get from them is a football only deal.

Liberty has big aspirations and chances are someone would find them unacceptable.

Organizing a league at that level in that part of the country today is an exercise in herding cats

^This

It would be a hodgepodge of FBs and FCS schools. By and large, football isn’t a big thing in New England as evidenced by the number of football playing schools (not counting the Ivy League):

Maine - 1 FCS
Vermont - 1 FCS
New Hampshire - 1 FCS
Massachusetts- 2 FBS (1 P5/1 g5)
Connecticut - 1 (FBS)
New York - 4 3 FBS/1 FCS 1 P5/3g5)
New Jersey - 1 FBS P5

It makes ZERO... repeat, ZERO sense to try to do something like this. There is too much disparity in budget and resources among the schools that could possibly move up.

Vermont doesn’t have an FCS school. New Hampshire has two in UNH and Dartmouth. You’re missing Rhode Island. And I’m pretty sure your info is wrong for NY and NJ. But you got Maine!

Yeah, I meant RI not VT.

Should have clarified by saying “schools that possibly could move to FBS”.

I left out the Ivy Leagues and schools with small budgets which would keep them fcs such as Wagner and Fordham.

NY has:
FBS (3): Syracuse, Army, Buffalo
FCS (7): Albany, Colgate, Fordham, LIU, Marist, Stony Brook, Wagner

NY is such an anomaly for college football. NY is the 4th most populated state yet has no P5 public schools. The top 14 most populated states all have at least two public P5 public schools with the exception of Ohio but Ohio in addition to OSU has 6 MAC programs and Cincy. I chose the top 14 because Massachusetts is the 15th most populated state and they obviously have no P5 at all.

(03-18-2021 07:47 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 06:23 PM)NJMark Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 05:20 PM)THUNDERStruck73 Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 11:34 AM)VCE Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 10:39 AM)THUNDERStruck73 Wrote:  ^This

It would be a hodgepodge of FBs and FCS schools. By and large, football isn’t a big thing in New England as evidenced by the number of football playing schools (not counting the Ivy League):

Maine - 1 FCS
Vermont - 1 FCS
New Hampshire - 1 FCS
Massachusetts- 2 FBS (1 P5/1 g5)
Connecticut - 1 (FBS)
New York - 4 3 FBS/1 FCS 1 P5/3g5)
New Jersey - 1 FBS P5

It makes ZERO... repeat, ZERO sense to try to do something like this. There is too much disparity in budget and resources among the schools that could possibly move up.

Vermont doesn’t have an FCS school. New Hampshire has two in UNH and Dartmouth. You’re missing Rhode Island. And I’m pretty sure your info is wrong for NY and NJ. But you got Maine!

Yeah, I meant RI not VT.

Should have clarified by saying “schools that possibly could move to FBS”.

I left out the Ivy Leagues and schools with small budgets which would keep them fcs such as Wagner and Fordham.

NY has:
FBS (3): Syracuse, Army, Buffalo
FCS (7): Albany, Colgate, Fordham, LIU, Marist, Stony Brook, Wagner

NY is such an anomaly for college football. NY is the 4th most populated state yet has no P5 public schools. The top 14 most populated states all have at least two public P5 public schools with the exception of Ohio but Ohio in addition to OSU has 6 MAC programs and Cincy. I chose the top 14 because Massachusetts is the 15th most populated state and they obviously have no P5 at all.

They have BC though

(03-18-2021 07:55 PM)BKTopper Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 07:47 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 06:23 PM)NJMark Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 05:20 PM)THUNDERStruck73 Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 11:34 AM)VCE Wrote:  Vermont doesn’t have an FCS school. New Hampshire has two in UNH and Dartmouth. You’re missing Rhode Island. And I’m pretty sure your info is wrong for NY and NJ. But you got Maine!

Yeah, I meant RI not VT.

Should have clarified by saying “schools that possibly could move to FBS”.

I left out the Ivy Leagues and schools with small budgets which would keep them fcs such as Wagner and Fordham.

NY has:
FBS (3): Syracuse, Army, Buffalo
FCS (7): Albany, Colgate, Fordham, LIU, Marist, Stony Brook, Wagner

NY is such an anomaly for college football. NY is the 4th most populated state yet has no P5 public schools. The top 14 most populated states all have at least two public P5 public schools with the exception of Ohio but Ohio in addition to OSU has 6 MAC programs and Cincy. I chose the top 14 because Massachusetts is the 15th most populated state and they obviously have no P5 at all.

They have BC though

Your right I forgot about BC.

(03-18-2021 08:07 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 07:55 PM)BKTopper Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 07:47 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 06:23 PM)NJMark Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 05:20 PM)THUNDERStruck73 Wrote:  Yeah, I meant RI not VT.

Should have clarified by saying “schools that possibly could move to FBS”.

I left out the Ivy Leagues and schools with small budgets which would keep them fcs such as Wagner and Fordham.

NY has:
FBS (3): Syracuse, Army, Buffalo
FCS (7): Albany, Colgate, Fordham, LIU, Marist, Stony Brook, Wagner

NY is such an anomaly for college football. NY is the 4th most populated state yet has no P5 public schools. The top 14 most populated states all have at least two public P5 public schools with the exception of Ohio but Ohio in addition to OSU has 6 MAC programs and Cincy. I chose the top 14 because Massachusetts is the 15th most populated state and they obviously have no P5 at all.

They have BC though

Your right I forgot about BC.

I just assumed you were throwing shade at them.

(03-18-2021 08:49 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 08:07 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 07:55 PM)BKTopper Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 07:47 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 06:23 PM)NJMark Wrote:  NY has:
FBS (3): Syracuse, Army, Buffalo
FCS (7): Albany, Colgate, Fordham, LIU, Marist, Stony Brook, Wagner

NY is such an anomaly for college football. NY is the 4th most populated state yet has no P5 public schools. The top 14 most populated states all have at least two public P5 public schools with the exception of Ohio but Ohio in addition to OSU has 6 MAC programs and Cincy. I chose the top 14 because Massachusetts is the 15th most populated state and they obviously have no P5 at all.

They have BC though

Your right I forgot about BC.

I just assumed you were throwing shade at them.

No it was unintentional

Despite them being in Boston and ruining ND's season in 93 I often root for them

(03-18-2021 07:47 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  NY is such an anomaly for college football. NY is the 4th most populated state yet has no P5 public schools. The top 14 most populated states all have at least two public P5 public schools with the exception of Ohio but Ohio in addition to OSU has 6 MAC programs and Cincy. I chose the top 14 because Massachusetts is the 15th most populated state and they obviously have no P5 at all.

SUNY wasn't established until 1948 as private schools pushed for decades to keep teachers colleges from full offerings. Ezra Cornell convinced the state no teacher's college could become great, so Cornell was founded as the land grant. CCNY gained notice in MBB then fell hard and never came back. Buffalo was one of those harsh private schools but joined SUNY in '62, shot up to Major status but funding cuts led to football being cut for 7 seasons, then SUNY trusties banned athletic scholarships from 1977 to 1986. Hard to imagine another state system banning in that way. And quite the hindrance to developing any major program just as conferences grew and tv money started flowing.

NY had 6 private AAU universities for decades, now down to 4. Consider, what is the best private school in Michigan? There really are none. So UofM is awash in cash and prestige because old Detroit money flowed to make it the best. No elite private U's in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa. Ohio has Case-Western, Ill. has U. of Chicago, Missouri has Washington U. and they all de-emphasized athletics to be in the Ivy League of Division 3 A.A.U. ND and Northwestern never backed out and won out. And the flagship campuses established themselves over decades. Penn, Lehigh, and other private schools didn't have the same clout as NY private schools, so Pitt, Penn St, Temple got to be 'state-related', funding with low oversight. In NY, Buffalo had to fight hard just to get the scholarship ban overturned.

(03-18-2021 11:35 PM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 07:47 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  NY is such an anomaly for college football. NY is the 4th most populated state yet has no P5 public schools. The top 14 most populated states all have at least two public P5 public schools with the exception of Ohio but Ohio in addition to OSU has 6 MAC programs and Cincy. I chose the top 14 because Massachusetts is the 15th most populated state and they obviously have no P5 at all.

SUNY wasn't established until 1948 as private schools pushed for decades to keep teachers colleges from full offerings. Ezra Cornell convinced the state no teacher's college could become great, so Cornell was founded as the land grant. CCNY gained notice in MBB then fell hard and never came back. Buffalo was one of those harsh private schools but joined SUNY in '62, shot up to Major status but funding cuts led to football being cut for 7 seasons, then SUNY trusties banned athletic scholarships from 1977 to 1986. Hard to imagine another state system banning in that way. And quite the hindrance to developing any major program just as conferences grew and tv money started flowing.

NY had 6 private AAU universities for decades, now down to 4. Consider, what is the best private school in Michigan? There really are none. So UofM is awash in cash and prestige because old Detroit money flowed to make it the best. No elite private U's in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa. Ohio has Case-Western, Ill. has U. of Chicago, Missouri has Washington U. and they all de-emphasized athletics to be in the Ivy League of Division 3 A.A.U. ND and Northwestern never backed out and won out. And the flagship campuses established themselves over decades. Penn, Lehigh, and other private schools didn't have the same clout as NY private schools, so Pitt, Penn St, Temple got to be 'state-related', funding with low oversight. In NY, Buffalo had to fight hard just to get the scholarship ban overturned.

Which six schools in NY were AAU? Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Syracuse (formerly I’m guessing), Colgate, and ?

(03-18-2021 06:23 PM)NJMark Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 05:20 PM)THUNDERStruck73 Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 11:34 AM)VCE Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 10:39 AM)THUNDERStruck73 Wrote:  

(03-16-2021 06:40 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  A G5 level league in the northeast would be very hard to achieve.

Buffalo, Temple, and Navy all have conferences. Army might like a scheduling agreement that gets them a few games close to home, but overall they want a national schedule.

UMass and UConn will at best, commit to football only memberships, so you’d still need 8 full members to be legit.

Villanova isn’t going to commit to a move up, and like UConn, the best you could get from them is a football only deal.

Liberty has big aspirations and chances are someone would find them unacceptable.

Organizing a league at that level in that part of the country today is an exercise in herding cats

^This

It would be a hodgepodge of FBs and FCS schools. By and large, football isn’t a big thing in New England as evidenced by the number of football playing schools (not counting the Ivy League):

Maine - 1 FCS
Vermont - 1 FCS
New Hampshire - 1 FCS
Massachusetts- 2 FBS (1 P5/1 g5)
Connecticut - 1 (FBS)
New York - 4 3 FBS/1 FCS 1 P5/3g5)
New Jersey - 1 FBS P5

It makes ZERO... repeat, ZERO sense to try to do something like this. There is too much disparity in budget and resources among the schools that could possibly move up.

Vermont doesn’t have an FCS school. New Hampshire has two in UNH and Dartmouth. You’re missing Rhode Island. And I’m pretty sure your info is wrong for NY and NJ. But you got Maine!

Yeah, I meant RI not VT.

Should have clarified by saying “schools that possibly could move to FBS”.

I left out the Ivy Leagues and schools with small budgets which would keep them fcs such as Wagner and Fordham.

NY has:
FBS (3): Syracuse, Army, Buffalo
FCS (7): Albany, Colgate, Fordham, LIU, Marist, Stony Brook, Wagner

And AGAIN, the only FCS schools that have a prayer of moving up are Stony Brook and Albany with budgets over $20MM. The others aren’t even close or have no desire to move. That is why they were not included in that list.

(03-19-2021 07:04 AM)esayem Wrote:  Which six schools in NY were AAU? Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Syracuse (formerly I’m guessing), Colgate, and ?

You are correct, there were 5. When I think of the major privates I clump in thoughts of RPI as AAU worthy, though not lol. RPI and U. of Rochester are so good they would fit in the Patriot League with Colgate, though they never will.

That string across each region of Upstate New York of Army, RPI, Cornell, Colgate, Syracuse, U. of Rochester, and then-private UB, were just too influential. And NYC never had the will to produce a large, elite public U. So for decades Upstate has been SU athletics and cawlidge hawkey.

Pennsylvania did it better, flipping Pitt and Temple to state related, and building up their land-grant A&M school with Penn State. And why Pennsylvania and not New York was the key to any permanent FBS eastern league.

Colgate's never been in the AAU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associatio...iversities

Private:
Columbia 1900-present
Cornell 1900-present
Rochester 1941-present
NYU 1950-present
Syracuse 1966-2011

Public:
Buffalo 1989-present
Stony Brook 2001-present

(03-19-2021 07:04 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 11:35 PM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  

(03-18-2021 07:47 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  NY is such an anomaly for college football. NY is the 4th most populated state yet has no P5 public schools. The top 14 most populated states all have at least two public P5 public schools with the exception of Ohio but Ohio in addition to OSU has 6 MAC programs and Cincy. I chose the top 14 because Massachusetts is the 15th most populated state and they obviously have no P5 at all.

SUNY wasn't established until 1948 as private schools pushed for decades to keep teachers colleges from full offerings. Ezra Cornell convinced the state no teacher's college could become great, so Cornell was founded as the land grant. CCNY gained notice in MBB then fell hard and never came back. Buffalo was one of those harsh private schools but joined SUNY in '62, shot up to Major status but funding cuts led to football being cut for 7 seasons, then SUNY trusties banned athletic scholarships from 1977 to 1986. Hard to imagine another state system banning in that way. And quite the hindrance to developing any major program just as conferences grew and tv money started flowing.

NY had 6 private AAU universities for decades, now down to 4. Consider, what is the best private school in Michigan? There really are none. So UofM is awash in cash and prestige because old Detroit money flowed to make it the best. No elite private U's in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa. Ohio has Case-Western, Ill. has U. of Chicago, Missouri has Washington U. and they all de-emphasized athletics to be in the Ivy League of Division 3 A.A.U. ND and Northwestern never backed out and won out. And the flagship campuses established themselves over decades. Penn, Lehigh, and other private schools didn't have the same clout as NY private schools, so Pitt, Penn St, Temple got to be 'state-related', funding with low oversight. In NY, Buffalo had to fight hard just to get the scholarship ban overturned.

Which six schools in NY were AAU? Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Syracuse (formerly I’m guessing), Colgate, and ?

Rochester

(03-19-2021 08:40 AM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  

(03-19-2021 07:04 AM)esayem Wrote:  Which six schools in NY were AAU? Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Syracuse (formerly I’m guessing), Colgate, and ?

You are correct, there were 5. When I think of the major privates I clump in thoughts of RPI as AAU worthy, though not lol. RPI and U. of Rochester are so good they would fit in the Patriot League with Colgate, though they never will.

That string across each region of Upstate New York of Army, RPI, Cornell, Colgate, Syracuse, U. of Rochester, and then-private UB, were just too influential. And NYC never had the will to produce a large, elite public U. So for decades Upstate has been SU athletics and cawlidge hawkey.

Pennsylvania did it better, flipping Pitt and Temple to state related, and building up their land-grant A&M school with Penn State. And why Pennsylvania and not New York was the key to any permanent FBS eastern league.

Private Buffalo wasn't as influential as the Catholic Little 3. It wasn't till they went public that they were able to move up.

(03-19-2021 03:36 PM)whittx Wrote:  

(03-19-2021 08:40 AM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  

(03-19-2021 07:04 AM)esayem Wrote:  Which six schools in NY were AAU? Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Syracuse (formerly I’m guessing), Colgate, and ?

You are correct, there were 5. When I think of the major privates I clump in thoughts of RPI as AAU worthy, though not lol. RPI and U. of Rochester are so good they would fit in the Patriot League with Colgate, though they never will.

That string across each region of Upstate New York of Army, RPI, Cornell, Colgate, Syracuse, U. of Rochester, and then-private UB, were just too influential. And NYC never had the will to produce a large, elite public U. So for decades Upstate has been SU athletics and cawlidge hawkey.

Pennsylvania did it better, flipping Pitt and Temple to state related, and building up their land-grant A&M school with Penn State. And why Pennsylvania and not New York was the key to any permanent FBS eastern league.

Private Buffalo wasn't as influential as the Catholic Little 3. It wasn't till they went public that they were able to move up.

I just meant politically influential. The private UB had no liberal arts for decades, bought Niagara's law school, and pumped out mostly dr's and lawyers in WNY. Many Little 3 undergrad pols and judges had/have to go through UB professional schools. By the 1940's it was larger than the Little 3 combined in enrollment and endowment. For sports, yep, Little 3 basketball in the AUD was big time up until the Sabres arrived, but UB was also getting 20-30K at the Rockpile for bigger football games in the late 40's to early 50's.

The broadest definition of the Northeast, I mean really, really stretching it out to include some Mid-Atlantic states, would include all of New England, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, DC, and West Virginia. (And I'm only including West Virginia because of WVU's past associations regularly playing schools like Pitt, Syracuse, Maryland, Penn State, BC, and Rutgers.

Those 12 states plus DC are represented by six of the ten FBS conferences: ACC (3), Big Ten (3), Big 12 (1), AAC (2), MAC (1), and C-USA (1). Three independent schools are also in that broad region: Army, UConn, and UMass.