(02-03-2021 04:28 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-03-2021 03:59 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  I just attended an IEP meeting with a "hybrid" district. Teachers instruct students in person twice per week and online twice per week. On Wednesdays, the teachers don't teach at all. Instead, they get to stay home. The kids can call or email them during "office hours" from 8 to 2. Meanwhile, the students watch random videos all day. It's hard to take your comments about "hardworking, underpaid and undervalued" teachers seriously when you confront stuff like that.

This is the same as assuming that all of the time you're not with your clients you're doing nothing. It's bizarre that you're doubling down on "if I can't see them working they must be freeloading". When we abruptly went back to virtual learning here, teachers drove to students houses to drop off materials for the coming lessons. I have gotten messages at all hours of the day with comments or questions or attempts to schedule individual meeting time that my kid's teacher thinks he needs. Why would your default position be that teachers are doing nothing instead of trying to figure out how to teach in a completely different environment? In your case, you are probably dealing with special ed teachers who may or may not be qualified to be special ed teachers, who are now trying to figure out how to adapt to teach kids remotely that they might not know how to teach in person. There's just so much anger that seems like wasted energy.

If I sound angry, it's because desperate, frustrated parents call me all the time. The parents in the "hybrid" district are frustrated because, when COVID hit and the schools shut down, they suddenly became unpaid special ed teachers. Many teachers just post random grade level work and yell at the parents when their special needs kids don't turn it in. I attend virtual IEP meetings with parents where I can hear the frustrated, dysregulated child screaming in the background: "I can't do this!" Parents of emotionally disturbed children have it even worse. Some of my clients are under siege from their own kids. School officials should be part of the solution, but they're not.

(02-03-2021 03:59 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-03-2021 12:46 PM)Swemster Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 02:05 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 01:54 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 01:49 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  How many of the jobs you listed feature great benefits, summers off and iron-clad, guaranteed employment until retirement?

With regard to "summers off"... add up the hours teachers work over 9 months. Summer is comp time.

Ha. One of the most cherished myths in America is the selfless, underpaid, heroic public school teacher. If you just admit that fable is untrue, then we're in agreement.

I've held my tongue on this but I just want to say, as a former teacher myself, I feel sorry for your kids' teachers. A few points I'll weigh in on:

--You mention NCLB a handful of times in this thread. NCLB is no longer in effect. It was replaced by ESSA, the 2015 reauthorization of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 that is our foundation for federal education legislation. ESSA did not totally reverse every policy structure upheld by NCLB, but it's widely acknowledged that it is a significant improvement on several fronts, namely accountability requirements.
--Speaking of accountability, you don't seem to understand that this term carries a privileged meaning in ed policy. Under ESSA, state and local level entities are given significantly more leeway to design and enforce their own accountability measures-- a removal from NCLB's accountability requirements that wielded strong federal control. In my former district, for example, accountability was largely measured by student test scores on end-of-course exams, learning gains (how a student progresses in terms of test scores from one grade level to the next), district observations, administrator observations, and a range of other non-academic factors. These measurements are determined by state government and enacted by our district. Your point that teachers have no accountability is at best limited to your experience in PA, and at worst a silly misguided idea.
--The starting salary for a teacher in my state was $41k when I started and is now $45k. The median household income in the state is $56k (but about $101k in my city). Others on this thread have already spoken to how absurd your assertions on teacher pay are.
--Lastly, and not to get too personal since you are another member of the Tribe whom I respect by default, but some of your statements absolutely disgust me. I can only assume that you've had terrible experiences with teachers. But don't you think that the low perceptions of teachers you've espoused here contribute to the very problems you're trying to outline? This is generally a very hardworking, highly educated, underpaid and undervalued population that you've spent tons of time the last couple days just absolutely bashing. Who wants to become a teacher in a world where people like you express such contempt for them?

I just attended an IEP meeting with a "hybrid" district. Teachers instruct students in person twice per week and online twice per week. On Wednesdays, the teachers don't teach at all. Instead, they get to stay home. The kids can call or email them during "office hours" from 8 to 2. Meanwhile, the students watch random videos all day. It's hard to take your comments about "hardworking, underpaid and undervalued" teachers seriously when you confront stuff like that.

So because your private school parent clientele have had issues with teacher accountability during a global pandemic, you think it’s spot on to make sweeping generalizations about teachers having no accountability and not being deserving of respect? How can you even take yourself seriously?

(02-03-2021 04:59 PM)Swemster Wrote:  

(02-03-2021 03:59 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-03-2021 12:46 PM)Swemster Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 02:05 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 01:54 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  With regard to "summers off"... add up the hours teachers work over 9 months. Summer is comp time.

Ha. One of the most cherished myths in America is the selfless, underpaid, heroic public school teacher. If you just admit that fable is untrue, then we're in agreement.

I've held my tongue on this but I just want to say, as a former teacher myself, I feel sorry for your kids' teachers. A few points I'll weigh in on:

--You mention NCLB a handful of times in this thread. NCLB is no longer in effect. It was replaced by ESSA, the 2015 reauthorization of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 that is our foundation for federal education legislation. ESSA did not totally reverse every policy structure upheld by NCLB, but it's widely acknowledged that it is a significant improvement on several fronts, namely accountability requirements.
--Speaking of accountability, you don't seem to understand that this term carries a privileged meaning in ed policy. Under ESSA, state and local level entities are given significantly more leeway to design and enforce their own accountability measures-- a removal from NCLB's accountability requirements that wielded strong federal control. In my former district, for example, accountability was largely measured by student test scores on end-of-course exams, learning gains (how a student progresses in terms of test scores from one grade level to the next), district observations, administrator observations, and a range of other non-academic factors. These measurements are determined by state government and enacted by our district. Your point that teachers have no accountability is at best limited to your experience in PA, and at worst a silly misguided idea.
--The starting salary for a teacher in my state was $41k when I started and is now $45k. The median household income in the state is $56k (but about $101k in my city). Others on this thread have already spoken to how absurd your assertions on teacher pay are.
--Lastly, and not to get too personal since you are another member of the Tribe whom I respect by default, but some of your statements absolutely disgust me. I can only assume that you've had terrible experiences with teachers. But don't you think that the low perceptions of teachers you've espoused here contribute to the very problems you're trying to outline? This is generally a very hardworking, highly educated, underpaid and undervalued population that you've spent tons of time the last couple days just absolutely bashing. Who wants to become a teacher in a world where people like you express such contempt for them?

I just attended an IEP meeting with a "hybrid" district. Teachers instruct students in person twice per week and online twice per week. On Wednesdays, the teachers don't teach at all. Instead, they get to stay home. The kids can call or email them during "office hours" from 8 to 2. Meanwhile, the students watch random videos all day. It's hard to take your comments about "hardworking, underpaid and undervalued" teachers seriously when you confront stuff like that.

So because your private school parent clientele have had issues with teacher accountability during a global pandemic, you think it’s spot on to make sweeping generalizations about teachers having no accountability and not being deserving of respect? How can you even take yourself seriously?

Not sure what you're talking about. IEPs are a public school device.

(02-03-2021 05:04 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-03-2021 04:59 PM)Swemster Wrote:  

(02-03-2021 03:59 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-03-2021 12:46 PM)Swemster Wrote:  

(02-02-2021 02:05 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  Ha. One of the most cherished myths in America is the selfless, underpaid, heroic public school teacher. If you just admit that fable is untrue, then we're in agreement.

I've held my tongue on this but I just want to say, as a former teacher myself, I feel sorry for your kids' teachers. A few points I'll weigh in on:

--You mention NCLB a handful of times in this thread. NCLB is no longer in effect. It was replaced by ESSA, the 2015 reauthorization of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 that is our foundation for federal education legislation. ESSA did not totally reverse every policy structure upheld by NCLB, but it's widely acknowledged that it is a significant improvement on several fronts, namely accountability requirements.
--Speaking of accountability, you don't seem to understand that this term carries a privileged meaning in ed policy. Under ESSA, state and local level entities are given significantly more leeway to design and enforce their own accountability measures-- a removal from NCLB's accountability requirements that wielded strong federal control. In my former district, for example, accountability was largely measured by student test scores on end-of-course exams, learning gains (how a student progresses in terms of test scores from one grade level to the next), district observations, administrator observations, and a range of other non-academic factors. These measurements are determined by state government and enacted by our district. Your point that teachers have no accountability is at best limited to your experience in PA, and at worst a silly misguided idea.
--The starting salary for a teacher in my state was $41k when I started and is now $45k. The median household income in the state is $56k (but about $101k in my city). Others on this thread have already spoken to how absurd your assertions on teacher pay are.
--Lastly, and not to get too personal since you are another member of the Tribe whom I respect by default, but some of your statements absolutely disgust me. I can only assume that you've had terrible experiences with teachers. But don't you think that the low perceptions of teachers you've espoused here contribute to the very problems you're trying to outline? This is generally a very hardworking, highly educated, underpaid and undervalued population that you've spent tons of time the last couple days just absolutely bashing. Who wants to become a teacher in a world where people like you express such contempt for them?

I just attended an IEP meeting with a "hybrid" district. Teachers instruct students in person twice per week and online twice per week. On Wednesdays, the teachers don't teach at all. Instead, they get to stay home. The kids can call or email them during "office hours" from 8 to 2. Meanwhile, the students watch random videos all day. It's hard to take your comments about "hardworking, underpaid and undervalued" teachers seriously when you confront stuff like that.

So because your private school parent clientele have had issues with teacher accountability during a global pandemic, you think it’s spot on to make sweeping generalizations about teachers having no accountability and not being deserving of respect? How can you even take yourself seriously?

Not sure what you're talking about. IEPs are a public school device.

“ Most of my practice involves private school tuition reimbursement claims.”

Your words, not mine. And yeah, I had kids with IEPs in my inclusion classes. I’m deeply familiar with IEPs.

(02-03-2021 05:18 PM)Swemster Wrote:  

(02-03-2021 05:04 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-03-2021 04:59 PM)Swemster Wrote:  

(02-03-2021 03:59 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-03-2021 12:46 PM)Swemster Wrote:  I've held my tongue on this but I just want to say, as a former teacher myself, I feel sorry for your kids' teachers. A few points I'll weigh in on:

--You mention NCLB a handful of times in this thread. NCLB is no longer in effect. It was replaced by ESSA, the 2015 reauthorization of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 that is our foundation for federal education legislation. ESSA did not totally reverse every policy structure upheld by NCLB, but it's widely acknowledged that it is a significant improvement on several fronts, namely accountability requirements.
--Speaking of accountability, you don't seem to understand that this term carries a privileged meaning in ed policy. Under ESSA, state and local level entities are given significantly more leeway to design and enforce their own accountability measures-- a removal from NCLB's accountability requirements that wielded strong federal control. In my former district, for example, accountability was largely measured by student test scores on end-of-course exams, learning gains (how a student progresses in terms of test scores from one grade level to the next), district observations, administrator observations, and a range of other non-academic factors. These measurements are determined by state government and enacted by our district. Your point that teachers have no accountability is at best limited to your experience in PA, and at worst a silly misguided idea.
--The starting salary for a teacher in my state was $41k when I started and is now $45k. The median household income in the state is $56k (but about $101k in my city). Others on this thread have already spoken to how absurd your assertions on teacher pay are.
--Lastly, and not to get too personal since you are another member of the Tribe whom I respect by default, but some of your statements absolutely disgust me. I can only assume that you've had terrible experiences with teachers. But don't you think that the low perceptions of teachers you've espoused here contribute to the very problems you're trying to outline? This is generally a very hardworking, highly educated, underpaid and undervalued population that you've spent tons of time the last couple days just absolutely bashing. Who wants to become a teacher in a world where people like you express such contempt for them?

I just attended an IEP meeting with a "hybrid" district. Teachers instruct students in person twice per week and online twice per week. On Wednesdays, the teachers don't teach at all. Instead, they get to stay home. The kids can call or email them during "office hours" from 8 to 2. Meanwhile, the students watch random videos all day. It's hard to take your comments about "hardworking, underpaid and undervalued" teachers seriously when you confront stuff like that.

So because your private school parent clientele have had issues with teacher accountability during a global pandemic, you think it’s spot on to make sweeping generalizations about teachers having no accountability and not being deserving of respect? How can you even take yourself seriously?

Not sure what you're talking about. IEPs are a public school device.

“ Most of my practice involves private school tuition reimbursement claims.”

Your words, not mine. And yeah, I had kids with IEPs in my inclusion classes. I’m deeply familiar with IEPs.

Correct. Under the IDEA, if a district fails to offer a child FAPE, parents may be entitled to private school tuition reimbursement. Most of my public school clients are seeking that remedy, among others.

(02-03-2021 04:42 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-03-2021 04:28 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-03-2021 03:59 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  I just attended an IEP meeting with a "hybrid" district. Teachers instruct students in person twice per week and online twice per week. On Wednesdays, the teachers don't teach at all. Instead, they get to stay home. The kids can call or email them during "office hours" from 8 to 2. Meanwhile, the students watch random videos all day. It's hard to take your comments about "hardworking, underpaid and undervalued" teachers seriously when you confront stuff like that.

This is the same as assuming that all of the time you're not with your clients you're doing nothing. It's bizarre that you're doubling down on "if I can't see them working they must be freeloading". When we abruptly went back to virtual learning here, teachers drove to students houses to drop off materials for the coming lessons. I have gotten messages at all hours of the day with comments or questions or attempts to schedule individual meeting time that my kid's teacher thinks he needs. Why would your default position be that teachers are doing nothing instead of trying to figure out how to teach in a completely different environment? In your case, you are probably dealing with special ed teachers who may or may not be qualified to be special ed teachers, who are now trying to figure out how to adapt to teach kids remotely that they might not know how to teach in person. There's just so much anger that seems like wasted energy.

If I sound angry, it's because desperate, frustrated parents call me all the time. The parents in the "hybrid" district are frustrated because, when COVID hit and the schools shut down, they suddenly became unpaid special ed teachers. Many teachers just post random grade level work and yell at the parents when their special needs kids don't turn it in. I attend virtual IEP meetings with parents where I can hear the frustrated, dysregulated child screaming in the background: "I can't do this!" Parents of emotionally disturbed children have it even worse. Some of my clients are under siege from their own kids. School officials should be part of the solution, but they're not.

I know people who are on your side of the table in those meetings, and they're as frustrated as you are. Some are teachers in other districts with special needs kids at home. I'm not just blowing smoke when I say I get where you're coming from, I'm a sympathetic ear when they need to vent. That's why I said earlier that special ed is its own thing. You're painting all teachers with the same brush. Many of them *are* failing to meet the needs of special needs kids. But in many cases that's because the teachers teaching the special needs are not trained to do that, and the schools are trying to keep their head above water with all of the non-special needs kids. There's a ton of problems with virtual learning, and even getting correct evaluation of whether a student needs to be classified as special needs.

You're seeing that part of it, but most officials are overwhelmed right now. Many are trying to figure out how to cover for all the vacancies, what to do about students that don't have internet access, how to get meals to kids that depend on them, and a host of other brand new problems. I do understand that special needs is getting overlooked and lost in the chaos. But turning that into "school officials aren't trying to be part of the solution" is not appreciating the amount of chaos that is going on right now. I know that doesn't do anything for the parents and kids that are suffering the worst though.

(02-03-2021 06:45 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-03-2021 04:42 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(02-03-2021 04:28 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-03-2021 03:59 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  I just attended an IEP meeting with a "hybrid" district. Teachers instruct students in person twice per week and online twice per week. On Wednesdays, the teachers don't teach at all. Instead, they get to stay home. The kids can call or email them during "office hours" from 8 to 2. Meanwhile, the students watch random videos all day. It's hard to take your comments about "hardworking, underpaid and undervalued" teachers seriously when you confront stuff like that.

This is the same as assuming that all of the time you're not with your clients you're doing nothing. It's bizarre that you're doubling down on "if I can't see them working they must be freeloading". When we abruptly went back to virtual learning here, teachers drove to students houses to drop off materials for the coming lessons. I have gotten messages at all hours of the day with comments or questions or attempts to schedule individual meeting time that my kid's teacher thinks he needs. Why would your default position be that teachers are doing nothing instead of trying to figure out how to teach in a completely different environment? In your case, you are probably dealing with special ed teachers who may or may not be qualified to be special ed teachers, who are now trying to figure out how to adapt to teach kids remotely that they might not know how to teach in person. There's just so much anger that seems like wasted energy.

If I sound angry, it's because desperate, frustrated parents call me all the time. The parents in the "hybrid" district are frustrated because, when COVID hit and the schools shut down, they suddenly became unpaid special ed teachers. Many teachers just post random grade level work and yell at the parents when their special needs kids don't turn it in. I attend virtual IEP meetings with parents where I can hear the frustrated, dysregulated child screaming in the background: "I can't do this!" Parents of emotionally disturbed children have it even worse. Some of my clients are under siege from their own kids. School officials should be part of the solution, but they're not.

I know people who are on your side of the table in those meetings, and they're as frustrated as you are. Some are teachers in other districts with special needs kids at home. I'm not just blowing smoke when I say I get where you're coming from, I'm a sympathetic ear when they need to vent. That's why I said earlier that special ed is its own thing. You're painting all teachers with the same brush. Many of them *are* failing to meet the needs of special needs kids. But in many cases that's because the teachers teaching the special needs are not trained to do that, and the schools are trying to keep their head above water with all of the non-special needs kids. There's a ton of problems with virtual learning, and even getting correct evaluation of whether a student needs to be classified as special needs.

You're seeing that part of it, but most officials are overwhelmed right now. Many are trying to figure out how to cover for all the vacancies, what to do about students that don't have internet access, how to get meals to kids that depend on them, and a host of other brand new problems. I do understand that special needs is getting overlooked and lost in the chaos. But turning that into "school officials aren't trying to be part of the solution" is not appreciating the amount of chaos that is going on right now. I know that doesn't do anything for the parents and kids that are suffering the worst though.

Thanks for the conciliatory words. I know there are good teachers and administrators out there. I know many who want to help these special needs kids. Unfortunately, in all the IEP meetings and due process hearings I've been to since the pandemic, I've seen very few rise to the occasion. Once in a while, start from "yes," not "no."