Lets say Seattle U. and California Baptist joins the WCC and UTEP joins the MWC. WAC wants to move up to FBS later.

WAC:
North Texas
UTSA
Rice
La. Tech
New Mexico State
Lamar
SFAU
Sam Houston State
Abilene Christian

Southern Utah
West Texas A&M
Dixie State
Central Oklahoma
UTRGV
for the future when they can grow their stadiums some.

North Dakota State for football only.
South Dakota State for football only.

Grand Canyon U. and Utah Valley are none-football members.

(08-16-2021 08:19 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-14-2021 07:30 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  

(08-14-2021 03:19 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(08-14-2021 07:56 AM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  Why would I want North Texas in that conference? I have no interest in seeing UNT relegated to a small regional east coast conference. I want UNT playing the best programs we can schedule. The cost doesn't matter. The travel doesn't matter. No one can elevate their program by isolating their athletics into cheap regional conferences. That is a formula for irrelevance. No wonder the once respected Marshall program has regressed over the past 20 years.

1. Literally EVERY SCHOOL THAT IS GOOD built themselves in a small regional conference that was cheap and isolated. That's why conferences started.

2. Someone who did elevate their program by isolating athletics into a cheap regional conference in the modern era: Gonzaga. What do you think the WCC is?

3. Best programs you can schedule? These are literally the teams in your conference NOW.

4. Formula for irrelevance? Again, this is your current conference! If this new conference would be irrelevant without 6 of the worst 7 programs from C-USA, what the hell are you WITH the bottom of the league?

5. The once respected Marshall program has regressed over 20 years? (Ignoring whether or not that's actually true) They joined C-USA 16 years ago! So if you feel were respected, that occurred in the MAC! Which is what? A cheap regional conference! And they've fallen off the map by BEING IN C-USA. Which is all the more reason to split in half (And invite UNT after the dust settles).

6. In all seriousness, your post makes me wonder if talking about half of C-USA leaving North Texas behind rubbed up against an abandonment issue nerve.

1. This isn't 1910. Things have changed. Regional conferences are becoming irrelevant.
2. I actually believe C-USA has potential, and would like to see it succeed. But, it looks like some saboteurs needs to be removed before the conference can flourish.
3. See answer number 2.
4. Programs need exposure outside of their region. That is why Marshall needs to keep Florida schools for recruiting. I like that UNT will travel anywhere and host any quality program.
5. Marshall has been in C-USA for 16 seasons and won 1 football title in that time, and 1 basketball title. They were once better than that.

6. As I stated, UNT doesn't want an invitation to their regional east coast fantasy. We are building our program in C-USA, and we'll continue our growth regardless of the annual gripping from the likes of Marshall and ODU. We all know they aren't going anywhere. No one wants them. If any conference wanted them, they'd already be gone. They can't take half of C-USA and form a new conference. If they could they'd have done that by now too. I'd probably feel sorry for them if I wasn't tired of their gripping. Now, I actually wish they'd abandon C-USA.

I imagine if my school had paltry ticket sales and donors then our admin wouldn't care so much about having regional rivals either. But you actually do have in conference regional rivals and still don't do **** at the box office. People in Denton don't care about UNT so your plan is to travel the world looing for someone who does. Smart.

Games with an attendance over 25,000 in the three seasons prior to COVID (2017 through 2019)

UNT- Apogee Stadium
vs Houston 30,123
vs. SMU 29,519
vs. LA Tech 30,105
vs. Rice 25,379
vs. UTEP 26,108
vs, Army 26,392

ODU- Ballard Stadium
Nothing........

(08-16-2021 07:46 AM)SkullyMaroo Wrote:  

(08-16-2021 12:22 AM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  

(08-15-2021 02:03 PM)JTApps1 Wrote:  

(08-14-2021 05:31 PM)herdfan129 Wrote:  

(08-14-2021 04:28 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Unlike Marshall who now plays with almost no one who was in CUSA when they joined, they get to play two UT system schools and Rice and all is good.

True. It was a move up for them and a downgrade for us... still though. They would keep all the Texas schools if our conference were to split so I’m not sure what their issue is.

Maybe the ego of UNT folks couldn't handle the fact that this move would admit leaving the SBC was a mistake...

You're joking right? UNT now is conferencing in the same division with Rice, LA Tech, Southern Miss, UAB, and UTEP. It was a great move for North Texas. Since leaving the Sun Belt 9 years ago, UNT has doubled our athletic budget from $20 million to $40 million. I don't know if any other G5 has done that in the past decade. We bought our basketball coach from a Sun Belt program for $500,000 and now we pay him around $800,000 a year and win titles. Facilities keep going up (2018-soccer/track, 2019-indoor practice facility, 2021-softball, and 2021-golf) and the future looks bright for UNT. Leaving the Sun Belt was the best conference move UNT ever made.

Wouldn’t your budget increasing have also happened if you remained in the Sun Belt? Your massive student body voted on an increase of student fees to be used for athletics, and that adds up.. I think being in a division where there are multiple Texas teams was certainly a win for UNT, but I don’t know that we could assume the budget and facility improvements wouldn’t have happened in the Sun Belt. After all, you built your new football stadium while in the Sun Belt.

Some. Almost everyone sees their budget increase over time. But, our budget would not have doubled had we stayed in the Sun Belt. I know I currently give about three times as much as I did when we were in the Sun Belt. And, our big money donors are stepping up with bigger checks since we joined C-USA. Not many large gifts were given to the UNT athletic department when we were in the Sun Belt. The big checks that got the IPF and golf facility built would not have been written if we were still in the Sun Belt. It's hard to be out on an island.

You mentioned Apogee. Yes, that was approved by a vote of the students and did increased revenue for the athletic department. But that money didn't double the total athletic budget. Apogee Stadium is turning 10 years old, and we are already planning a partial renovation of the south end zone. Big donations will pay for a large portion of that construction. UNT's licensing revenue is among the best in C-USA and donations are increasing. Those gains wouldn't be happening for UNT if we were still in the Sun Belt.

(08-16-2021 09:49 AM)LostInSpace Wrote:  Not interested in nit picking over Fordham’s stature. They’re more prominent and have greater financial resources than the other A10 Catholics which is what matters.

What's the point of resources if you don't, you know, use them to at least not suck?

Duquesne's had a rough 20 years as well, but they have been so awesome at helping the league the last five years. They're going to be good soon. They get it.

(08-16-2021 09:33 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  

(08-16-2021 08:19 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-14-2021 07:30 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  

(08-14-2021 03:19 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(08-14-2021 07:56 AM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  Why would I want North Texas in that conference? I have no interest in seeing UNT relegated to a small regional east coast conference. I want UNT playing the best programs we can schedule. The cost doesn't matter. The travel doesn't matter. No one can elevate their program by isolating their athletics into cheap regional conferences. That is a formula for irrelevance. No wonder the once respected Marshall program has regressed over the past 20 years.

1. Literally EVERY SCHOOL THAT IS GOOD built themselves in a small regional conference that was cheap and isolated. That's why conferences started.

2. Someone who did elevate their program by isolating athletics into a cheap regional conference in the modern era: Gonzaga. What do you think the WCC is?

3. Best programs you can schedule? These are literally the teams in your conference NOW.

4. Formula for irrelevance? Again, this is your current conference! If this new conference would be irrelevant without 6 of the worst 7 programs from C-USA, what the hell are you WITH the bottom of the league?

5. The once respected Marshall program has regressed over 20 years? (Ignoring whether or not that's actually true) They joined C-USA 16 years ago! So if you feel were respected, that occurred in the MAC! Which is what? A cheap regional conference! And they've fallen off the map by BEING IN C-USA. Which is all the more reason to split in half (And invite UNT after the dust settles).

6. In all seriousness, your post makes me wonder if talking about half of C-USA leaving North Texas behind rubbed up against an abandonment issue nerve.

1. This isn't 1910. Things have changed. Regional conferences are becoming irrelevant.
2. I actually believe C-USA has potential, and would like to see it succeed. But, it looks like some saboteurs needs to be removed before the conference can flourish.
3. See answer number 2.
4. Programs need exposure outside of their region. That is why Marshall needs to keep Florida schools for recruiting. I like that UNT will travel anywhere and host any quality program.
5. Marshall has been in C-USA for 16 seasons and won 1 football title in that time, and 1 basketball title. They were once better than that.

6. As I stated, UNT doesn't want an invitation to their regional east coast fantasy. We are building our program in C-USA, and we'll continue our growth regardless of the annual gripping from the likes of Marshall and ODU. We all know they aren't going anywhere. No one wants them. If any conference wanted them, they'd already be gone. They can't take half of C-USA and form a new conference. If they could they'd have done that by now too. I'd probably feel sorry for them if I wasn't tired of their gripping. Now, I actually wish they'd abandon C-USA.

I imagine if my school had paltry ticket sales and donors then our admin wouldn't care so much about having regional rivals either. But you actually do have in conference regional rivals and still don't do **** at the box office. People in Denton don't care about UNT so your plan is to travel the world looing for someone who does. Smart.

Games with an attendance over 25,000 in the three seasons prior to COVID (2017 through 2019)

UNT- Apogee Stadium
vs Houston 30,123
vs. SMU 29,519
vs. LA Tech 30,105
vs. Rice 25,379
vs. UTEP 26,108
vs, Army 26,392

ODU- Ballard Stadium
Nothing........

Oh, you picked an arbitrary number that you know is larger than our stadium and came up with a small handful of games over the course of 3 years? Sick burn. I said sales and donations though, let's take a look at that.

Ticket sales in the last three years prior to COVID

NT
1.76M
1.38M
1.16M

ODU
3.79M
3.43M
3.53M

Donations last three years prior to COVID

NT
2.68M
2.28M
1.16M

ODU
6.78M
6.96M
5.7M

In fact just our football program would outpace your entire athletic program in these figures.

(08-16-2021 09:57 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(08-16-2021 09:49 AM)LostInSpace Wrote:  Not interested in nit picking over Fordham’s stature. They’re more prominent and have greater financial resources than the other A10 Catholics which is what matters.

What's the point of resources if you don't, you know, use them to at least not suck?

Duquesne's had a rough 20 years as well, but they have been so awesome at helping the league the last five years. They're going to be good soon. They get it.

Good question. Fordham had 10 winning seasons, 8 NIT appearances, 1 NCAA appearance and multiple conference championships (admittedly against weaker completion) in the 15 years before joining the A10. Duquesne had two winning seasons and no post-season appearances during that same period and they defected the A10 for an ill-fated year in the MCC. Duquesne had a rough nearly 30 years. Four winning seasons from 1981 - 2018.

It’s hard to fault the presidents who invited Fordham given that the members wanted a presence in New York with Rutgers impending departure. Fordham had been the most consistent winner among themselves, Iona and Hofstra. And they had more money than either of the other two. Plus it was a chaotic time. They thought Temple was leaving with RU and WVU when they started vetting candidates. They had no idea that VA Tech would be an option let alone interested in joining the A10.

Fordham needs to make a decent coaching hire as Duquesne finally did. Putting money into improving facilities as Duquesne has would probably help to, but they’ve got to find a good coach.

(08-17-2021 08:27 AM)LostInSpace Wrote:  Good question. Fordham had 10 winning seasons, 8 NIT appearances, 1 NCAA appearance and multiple conference championships (admittedly against weaker completion) in the 15 years before joining the A10. Duquesne had two winning seasons and no post-season appearances during that same period and they defected the A10 for an ill-fated year in the MCC. Duquesne had a rough nearly 30 years. Four winning seasons from 1981 - 2018.

It’s hard to fault the presidents who invited Fordham given that the members wanted a presence in New York with Rutgers impending departure. Fordham had been the most consistent winner among themselves, Iona and Hofstra. And they had more money than either of the other two. Plus it was a chaotic time. They thought Temple was leaving with RU and WVU when they started vetting candidates. They had no idea that VA Tech would be an option let alone interested in joining the A10.

Fordham needs to make a decent coaching hire as Duquesne finally did. Putting money into improving facilities as Duquesne has would probably help to, but they’ve got to find a good coach.

The Iona, Hofstra comparison reminds me of the time I did an "W-L vs RPI range" breakdown for 20 years of LaSalle vs Siena basketball. And I discovered that La Salle and Siena are basically the same strength of program. Very similar win percentages vs each RPI group.

But Siena has a better overall record, and like 8 NCAA bids winning the MAAC while LaSalle has 1 NCAA bid in the A-10 because La Salle is playing Nova, Temple and the top 5 of the A-10 every year, and far fewer games against 150+ of the RPI. So they LOOK worse even though they're the same.

I don't think Fordham was an addition that BACK THEN, was clearly going to be a mistake. I think there were valid reasons why they'd take Fordham but they misjudged the outcome.

One of the hardest things to do is project what a school will be when they move up to a higher level. Davidson was just fine moving up to the A-10. VCU was as well. George Mason regressed (Much of that was Jim Larranaga taking them to a Final Four and then he leaves for Miami and Mason turned back into Mason).

And of course, Charlotte. Who would have predicted what Charlotte became in the A-10 after what they did in C-USA?

Which brings me back to C-USA and not going OT with A-10 stuff. C-USA looks like they've been passed by the SBC. C-USA has teams in the league like Fordham in the A-10 where they're just not good enough to help the league and are probably actively hurting it.

But everyone made decisions with the best available data at hand, and no one could have predicted that App State and Coastal Carolina would go from FCS teams to Top 20 ranked FBS teams in 8 years.

(08-17-2021 07:58 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-16-2021 09:33 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  

(08-16-2021 08:19 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-14-2021 07:30 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  

(08-14-2021 03:19 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  1. Literally EVERY SCHOOL THAT IS GOOD built themselves in a small regional conference that was cheap and isolated. That's why conferences started.

2. Someone who did elevate their program by isolating athletics into a cheap regional conference in the modern era: Gonzaga. What do you think the WCC is?

3. Best programs you can schedule? These are literally the teams in your conference NOW.

4. Formula for irrelevance? Again, this is your current conference! If this new conference would be irrelevant without 6 of the worst 7 programs from C-USA, what the hell are you WITH the bottom of the league?

5. The once respected Marshall program has regressed over 20 years? (Ignoring whether or not that's actually true) They joined C-USA 16 years ago! So if you feel were respected, that occurred in the MAC! Which is what? A cheap regional conference! And they've fallen off the map by BEING IN C-USA. Which is all the more reason to split in half (And invite UNT after the dust settles).

6. In all seriousness, your post makes me wonder if talking about half of C-USA leaving North Texas behind rubbed up against an abandonment issue nerve.

1. This isn't 1910. Things have changed. Regional conferences are becoming irrelevant.
2. I actually believe C-USA has potential, and would like to see it succeed. But, it looks like some saboteurs needs to be removed before the conference can flourish.
3. See answer number 2.
4. Programs need exposure outside of their region. That is why Marshall needs to keep Florida schools for recruiting. I like that UNT will travel anywhere and host any quality program.
5. Marshall has been in C-USA for 16 seasons and won 1 football title in that time, and 1 basketball title. They were once better than that.

6. As I stated, UNT doesn't want an invitation to their regional east coast fantasy. We are building our program in C-USA, and we'll continue our growth regardless of the annual gripping from the likes of Marshall and ODU. We all know they aren't going anywhere. No one wants them. If any conference wanted them, they'd already be gone. They can't take half of C-USA and form a new conference. If they could they'd have done that by now too. I'd probably feel sorry for them if I wasn't tired of their gripping. Now, I actually wish they'd abandon C-USA.

I imagine if my school had paltry ticket sales and donors then our admin wouldn't care so much about having regional rivals either. But you actually do have in conference regional rivals and still don't do **** at the box office. People in Denton don't care about UNT so your plan is to travel the world looing for someone who does. Smart.

Games with an attendance over 25,000 in the three seasons prior to COVID (2017 through 2019)

UNT- Apogee Stadium
vs Houston 30,123
vs. SMU 29,519
vs. LA Tech 30,105
vs. Rice 25,379
vs. UTEP 26,108
vs, Army 26,392

ODU- Ballard Stadium
Nothing........

Oh, you picked an arbitrary number that you know is larger than our stadium and came up with a small handful of games over the course of 3 years? Sick burn. I said sales and donations though, let's take a look at that.

Ticket sales in the last three years prior to COVID

NT
1.76M
1.38M
1.16M

ODU
3.79M
3.43M
3.53M

Donations last three years prior to COVID

NT
2.68M
2.28M
1.16M

ODU
6.78M
6.96M
5.7M

In fact just our football program would outpace your entire athletic program in these figures.

All that equals two things....

1. ODU should have expanded Ballard Stadium when they did their renovation. You're supposed to be an FBS program. You should to be able to seat at least 25,000.

2. ODU is obviously overcharging the few football fans that they have. The crap you've been putting on the field (2018:4-8, 2019:1-11, & 2020:refused to field a team) isn't worth what those people are paying.

By the way... your donations figures for UNT are way off. In 2018 North Texas received a $3 million donation from just one booster. I know another big booster also made a $2.5 million donation that same year. In 2020, a different big money donor gave $1.5 million to the athletic department. Once you factor in the average fan donations like mine, it is clear your numbers are wrong.

(08-17-2021 08:35 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  

(08-17-2021 07:58 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-16-2021 09:33 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  

(08-16-2021 08:19 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-14-2021 07:30 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  1. This isn't 1910. Things have changed. Regional conferences are becoming irrelevant.
2. I actually believe C-USA has potential, and would like to see it succeed. But, it looks like some saboteurs needs to be removed before the conference can flourish.
3. See answer number 2.
4. Programs need exposure outside of their region. That is why Marshall needs to keep Florida schools for recruiting. I like that UNT will travel anywhere and host any quality program.
5. Marshall has been in C-USA for 16 seasons and won 1 football title in that time, and 1 basketball title. They were once better than that.

6. As I stated, UNT doesn't want an invitation to their regional east coast fantasy. We are building our program in C-USA, and we'll continue our growth regardless of the annual gripping from the likes of Marshall and ODU. We all know they aren't going anywhere. No one wants them. If any conference wanted them, they'd already be gone. They can't take half of C-USA and form a new conference. If they could they'd have done that by now too. I'd probably feel sorry for them if I wasn't tired of their gripping. Now, I actually wish they'd abandon C-USA.

I imagine if my school had paltry ticket sales and donors then our admin wouldn't care so much about having regional rivals either. But you actually do have in conference regional rivals and still don't do **** at the box office. People in Denton don't care about UNT so your plan is to travel the world looing for someone who does. Smart.

Games with an attendance over 25,000 in the three seasons prior to COVID (2017 through 2019)

UNT- Apogee Stadium
vs Houston 30,123
vs. SMU 29,519
vs. LA Tech 30,105
vs. Rice 25,379
vs. UTEP 26,108
vs, Army 26,392

ODU- Ballard Stadium
Nothing........

Oh, you picked an arbitrary number that you know is larger than our stadium and came up with a small handful of games over the course of 3 years? Sick burn. I said sales and donations though, let's take a look at that.

Ticket sales in the last three years prior to COVID

NT
1.76M
1.38M
1.16M

ODU
3.79M
3.43M
3.53M

Donations last three years prior to COVID

NT
2.68M
2.28M
1.16M

ODU
6.78M
6.96M
5.7M

In fact just our football program would outpace your entire athletic program in these figures.

All that equals two things....

1. ODU should have expanded Ballard Stadium when they did their renovation. You're supposed to be an FBS program. You should to be able to seat at least 25,000.

2. ODU is obviously overcharging the few football fans that they have. The crap you've been putting on the field (2018:4-8, 2019:1-11, & 2020:refused to field a team) isn't worth what those people are paying.

By the way... your donations figures for UNT are way off. In 2018 North Texas received a $3 million donation from just one booster. I know another big booster also made a $2.5 million donation that same year. In 2020, a different big money donor gave $1.5 million to the athletic department. Once you factor in the average fan donations like mine, it is clear your numbers are wrong.

No what it means is we have a bigger and stronger fanbase and UNT's attendance is made up of a lot of nonpaying students and on the few occasions where you actually have good attendance it's visiting fans that make up the bulk.

Those are annual donations, larger donations are typically for capital projects and the like not into the unrestricted annual fund. Between 2017 and 2020 ODU raised $40M as part of a capital campaign but that's in addition to these figures.

(08-17-2021 08:35 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  All that equals two things....

1. ODU should have expanded Ballard Stadium when they did their renovation. You're supposed to be an FBS program. You should to be able to seat at least 25,000.

2. ODU is obviously overcharging the few football fans that they have. The crap you've been putting on the field (2018:4-8, 2019:1-11, & 2020:refused to field a team) isn't worth what those people are paying.

By the way... your donations figures for UNT are way off. In 2018 North Texas received a $3 million donation from just one booster. I know another big booster also made a $2.5 million donation that same year. In 2020, a different big money donor gave $1.5 million to the athletic department. Once you factor in the average fan donations like mine, it is clear your numbers are wrong.

I really wish people would stop bringing up stadium capacity since I consider that to be antiquated thinking. Outside of the football factory programs like OSU, Bama, ND...quality of fan experience matters a lot more than quantity of fans in today's world mainly because of HDTV. Why pay for tickets, travel to/from the game, fight/pay for parking and stand in lines for concessions/restrooms when you can watch it at home on a 4K TV with Dolby sound from your recliner. And a full (or even almost full) 22k stadium looks better to me on TV than a 40k stadium that is half empty.

There is revenue but they also look at recruiting.