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W&M Cuts 7 Sports
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #741
RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-19-2020 01:17 PM)Old tribe Wrote:  
(10-19-2020 01:15 PM)Old tribe Wrote:  
(10-19-2020 12:59 PM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-19-2020 11:54 AM)Old tribe Wrote:  
(10-19-2020 10:32 AM)Zorch Wrote:  Why wouldn't this test use the same one as the participation test? That is, since 58% of the undergraduate student body is female (and thus 58% of athletic opportunities need to be filled by women) then why wouldn't the scholarship dollars be apportioned that same way? In fact, if a school's participation metric was not compliant and they had way more participants of one sex, then making the scholarship metric adhere to that same (non-compliant) disparity would just perpetuate the harm. If women were to need 58% of the scholarship dollars then W&M falls far short. (It would also explain why the AD inflates the value of scholarships (at the out-of-state rate) because women get a higher number of scholarships).

Where did you get the numbers for current scholarship dollars? Can you provide the link? Thanks.

Because the scholarship money test is only looking at whether athletic scholarship dollars are allocated "fairly" to the people participating in varsity athletics.

The participation test doesn't have to be met by having an equivalent percentage of females athletes as the percentage of females in the student body. That's only one of 3 ways of meeting the participation test. You can have a a smaller percentage of female athletes than the percentage of female students and still be in compliance with Title IX. Many, many schools have a smaller percentage of female athletes than the percentage of female students.

You can find all Title IX related numbers at the US Department of Education's EADA website.

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/institution/details

Thanks. Yes, you put "fairly" in quotes. If your school has 70% male athletes (but should have only, say, 49% based on participation percentage) then it is unfair to also give them 70% of the scholarship money (even though doing so allows the school to satisfy the scholarship test).

I put fairly in quotes because the Title IX analysis/law doesn't use that word. I just used it as shorthand for what the analysis is looking at with the scholarship money part of the test. I'm not saying you're wrong on your fairness point, based on a subjective opinion someone can hold, but you're not necessarily correct under a Title IX analysis. Title IX doesn't automatically say it's unfair, or to be more precise a violation of the law, if you have 70% male athletes but only a 49% male student population. The analysis isn't that simple. You can automatically show compliance with the equal opportunities part of Title IX if you are within 2% of male/female population and male/female participation of athletics. But there are two other ways to show compliance with the equal opportunities part of Title IX. Go check out the EADA data for a bunch of P5 and FBS schools and you'll see how many aren't within 2%.

Since it's possible to be in compliance with Title IX if your participation numbers don't mirror your student population numbers, it's not unfair under Title IX if males are getting more scholarship money in such a scenario. It would actually be necessary to be in compliance with the law.

And, just to be clear, I think Title IX is a great law and I have a daughter who plays tons of sports. I'm just pointing out that the analysis isn't a black and white as people often think. It can be very complicated and subjective.
Thanks! I understand all your points. Thanks for taking the time to lay it out so clearly. Also, that website was very interesting. Seems like Tribe Athletics made a profit ($142K) in 2018-2019 (revenue higher than expenses). Also, I was very surprised to see that women's basketball made 46% of the revenue that men's basketball did. That must include equal dollars (equal number of games) from Tribe TV (this was the year before Flo).
(This post was last modified: 10-19-2020 01:32 PM by Zorch.)
10-19-2020 01:25 PM
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Old tribe Offline
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Post: #742
RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-19-2020 01:21 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  
(10-19-2020 01:17 PM)Old tribe Wrote:  And, just to be clear, I think Title IX is a great law and I have a daughter who plays tons of sports. I'm just pointing out that the analysis isn't a black and white as people often think. It can be very complicated and subjective.

Sorry we keep asking you questions about this one but I have another. Most people I've talked to who understand Title IX think it's a good idea but the actual law is in need of an update. Do you like Title IX as is? My biggest knock on it is, at the collegiate level, it's just not very effective. Like I certainly wouldn't say men's sports and women's sports are on an equal footing.

It depends on how you define effective. If you define it as resulting in adding more female varsity sports and opportunities for females to play varsity sports, then it's been very effective. I don't think there will ever be complete equal footing for men's and women's collegiate sports, however you would define that, just because consumers like to watch men's college sports more than women's (mostly just football and basketball).

I think the biggest problem that a lot of schools at the collegiate level have (at least as it pertains to Title IX) is their reluctance to reduce spending/scholarships on football. No one wants to do it, for completely logical competitiveness reasons. As a result, schools that don't have unlimited funds take the easy way out and cut men's sports (and sometimes women's sports too, as we know). I think the max number of scholarships for football could be cut.

As for Title IX itself, I'm sure there are some ways to update the law that would make sense in today's world of college athletics. I'm sure when the law was passed that no one was envisioning a world where many (most?) schools are majority female and how that would result in Title IX being applied.
10-19-2020 02:00 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #743
W&M Cuts 7 Sports
A football player alleged people drove by the practice field and shouted, "**** the Football Team."

That's our cancel culture at work and it's not helping.

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(This post was last modified: 10-20-2020 07:43 PM by Tribal.)
10-20-2020 07:41 PM
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Tank55 Offline
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Post: #744
RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
Well, that's what happens when you lose to the winless Giants.
10-20-2020 07:52 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #745
RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-20-2020 07:52 PM)Tank55 Wrote:  Well, that's what happens when you lose to the winless Giants.
No, Tank, one of OUR Tribe football players made the allegation...W&M's practice field.

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10-21-2020 05:41 AM
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bubbadog57 Offline
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Post: #746
RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
One idiot doesn't prove anything.
10-21-2020 03:18 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #747
RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-21-2020 03:18 PM)bubbadog57 Wrote:  One idiot doesn't prove anything.
What do you mean by that?

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10-21-2020 03:20 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #748
W&M Cuts 7 Sports
Shared path forward virtual meeting 7:00 tonight.

https://events.wm.edu/event/view/wm/119964

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10-21-2020 03:30 PM
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62Indian Offline
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Post: #749
RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-19-2020 02:00 PM)Old tribe Wrote:  
(10-19-2020 01:21 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  
(10-19-2020 01:17 PM)Old tribe Wrote:  And, just to be clear, I think Title IX is a great law and I have a daughter who plays tons of sports. I'm just pointing out that the analysis isn't a black and white as people often think. It can be very complicated and subjective.

Sorry we keep asking you questions about this one but I have another. Most people I've talked to who understand Title IX think it's a good idea but the actual law is in need of an update. Do you like Title IX as is? My biggest knock on it is, at the collegiate level, it's just not very effective. Like I certainly wouldn't say men's sports and women's sports are on an equal footing.

It depends on how you define effective. If you define it as resulting in adding more female varsity sports and opportunities for females to play varsity sports, then it's been very effective. I don't think there will ever be complete equal footing for men's and women's collegiate sports, however you would define that, just because consumers like to watch men's college sports more than women's (mostly just football and basketball).

I think the biggest problem that a lot of schools at the collegiate level have (at least as it pertains to Title IX) is their reluctance to reduce spending/scholarships on football. No one wants to do it, for completely logical competitiveness reasons. As a result, schools that don't have unlimited funds take the easy way out and cut men's sports (and sometimes women's sports too, as we know). I think the max number of scholarships for football could be cut.

As for Title IX itself, I'm sure there are some ways to update the law that would make sense in today's world of college athletics. I'm sure when the law was passed that no one was envisioning a world where many (most?) schools are majority female and how that would result in Title IX being applied.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Title IX laws should be repealed. This legislation has been a major factor in the soaring cost of Higher ED which has made college impossible to afford for regular folks. Because of the high cost of attending, the Federal Govt "loans" money to students so they can pay the colleges more money so the colleges can hire more Title IX administrators. As a result, the total amount of student debt nationally exceedes the total national debt for home mortgages. Many students begin their working lives with a monthly loan repayment of many hundreds of dollars per month, which inhibits their ability to get married, purchase a home of their own and to have children and contribute to the American society.

We have heard from many on this board who have children who are good at sports and were able to gain a scholarship. - what a wonderful thing!!! - so there are 250 women with athletic scholarships. What about the 4000 women students who do not receive a scholarship?? How is this fair and equitable to those women, or to their families writing the tuition checks.?

In my own case, my daughter wanted very much to attend W&M [which she did] but she had no interest in sports [much to my dismay] so no chance of a scholarship for my daughter, how fair and equitable is that? To make W&M more expensive, we lived out of state. You get the picture.

The fact of life is that boys and girls are interested in different things and have different skill sets. Equity has nothing to do with this.
10-22-2020 10:06 AM
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Tribe32 Offline
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Post: #750
RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
Title IX = Quota system. We know those don't work very well from other real life situations.
10-22-2020 11:23 AM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #751
W&M Cuts 7 Sports
Same reason we have affirmative action, laws to protect people with disabilities, equality among sexes, sexual preference, religion, etc.

These laws were forged out of a need to right wrongs. Are they perfect? No. Are they abused by some? Yes. We...us white men...brought this on ourselves.

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(This post was last modified: 10-22-2020 11:42 AM by Tribal.)
10-22-2020 11:42 AM
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Tribe32 Offline
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Post: #752
RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
Tribal, I think that there's a difference between equity and equality. The ones on your list are more related to equality and fair access. I think Title IX focuses on equity more. I know it's splitting hairs, but the definitions are meaningful to me.
10-22-2020 11:53 AM
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Tribal Offline
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W&M Cuts 7 Sports
I agree. What I support is equality of access, not equality of outcome. To that point, women were traditionally not offered equality of access to collegiate sports, thus the necessity of T9. For example, UVA didn't offer women's *varsity* sports until 1973. That's after I was born, so not all that long ago.

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10-22-2020 12:12 PM
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Blow Gym rat Offline
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Post: #754
RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-22-2020 12:12 PM)Tribal Wrote:  I agree. What I support is equality of access, not equality of outcome. To that point, women were traditionally not offered equality of access to collegiate sports, thus the necessity of T9. For example, UVA didn't offer women's *varsity* sports until 1973. That's after I was born, so not all that long ago.

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For whatever it's worth, U.Va. wasn't fully coeducational until 1970 -- I believe the only women previously were in the nursing school and some grad students. Mary Washington was the "Women's Undergraduate Arts and Sciences Division of the University of Virginia" and didn't become independent until 1972.

Unlike W&M, which was co-ed relatively early on, as I understand it.
(This post was last modified: 10-22-2020 01:01 PM by Blow Gym rat.)
10-22-2020 12:58 PM
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NC Tribe Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
When I was at W&M in the early '80s, women's athletics weren't part of the NCAA and the women's athletic department at W&M was separate from the men's. The NCAA didn't get interested in women's sports until there was money spent on them.

A lot has changed.
10-22-2020 01:32 PM
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billymac Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
From richmond.com:

“we moved too fast and tried to accomplish too much at once. And it didn’t do that well.”
W&M President Katherine Rowe
10-22-2020 03:35 PM
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Tribal Offline
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W&M Cuts 7 Sports
Michigan State cut swimming.


https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/ne...is-season/




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(This post was last modified: 10-22-2020 08:03 PM by Tribal.)
10-22-2020 08:03 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #758
W&M Cuts 7 Sports
Interesting, our cheer group went from co-ed varsity to club sport.

https://wmpeople.wm.edu/site/page/cheerleaders/home

Read more about why cheer isn't sanctioned by the NCAA as such.

https://www.michigandaily.com/section/sp...eep-it-way

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(This post was last modified: 10-23-2020 02:44 PM by Tribal.)
10-23-2020 02:41 PM
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Florida tribe fan Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-22-2020 03:35 PM)billymac Wrote:  From richmond.com:

“we moved too fast and tried to accomplish too much at once. And it didn’t do that well.”
W&M President Katherine Rowe


Res ipsa loquitur, or whatever they say over at the law school.

https://www.pilotonline.com/sports/vp-sp...story.html
11-04-2020 12:48 PM
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Tribal Offline
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W&M Cuts 7 Sports
Clemson is frickin loaded. Ridiculous excuse.


Clemson eliminating men’s track & field & cross country programs because of “financial challenges due to ongoing pandemic”

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(This post was last modified: 11-05-2020 09:09 PM by Tribal.)
11-05-2020 09:09 PM
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