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TribeFan1983 Offline
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Post: #701
RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-17-2020 12:03 PM)Blow Gym rat Wrote:  I think, Title IX or not, it’s very unlikely that any new sports will be added now or anytime soon. What needs to happen is that any restorations from the Tribe 7 list would need to hit the right M/F balance.

Restoring both swim teams, for example, looks like it could easily be made Title IX-neutral. Now they’re at 26 women and 22 men, or 54%-46%. Shifting one or two roster spots would put them where they need to be.

Other options might adding back women’s gymnastics but not restoring the men, since MGYM is on its last legs from an NCAA standpoint.

Frankly, if Title IX had been designed pragmatically, some way would have been found to accommodate football. The sheer size of the rosters puts everything else out of balance, particularly as women increasingly predominate as a component of the student population. The result is a dearth of opportunities for men in other sports at many universities, which will be bad for the long-term health of many sports in the U.S. — fewer participants, fewer coaches, less interest, etc.

The drafters of Title IX also assumed the same percentage of college men and women desire to play interscholastic sports and that both sexes do so with the same intensity of interest. Are there studies that support this? Do the fine women of the Nebraska bowling team or the Auburn equestrian squad play their sport because they love it, or do they do it for the scholarship money?
10-17-2020 01:51 PM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #702
RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-17-2020 01:51 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  ... Do the fine women of the Nebraska bowling team or the Auburn equestrian squad play their sport because they love it, or do they do it for the scholarship money?

Nothing wrong with that. If they are willing to give you a scholarship, take it!l If it is at W&M, an Ivy League school, or others of that ilk then all the better.
10-17-2020 04:04 PM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #703
RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-17-2020 01:51 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  
(10-17-2020 12:03 PM)Blow Gym rat Wrote:  I think, Title IX or not, it’s very unlikely that any new sports will be added now or anytime soon. What needs to happen is that any restorations from the Tribe 7 list would need to hit the right M/F balance.

Restoring both swim teams, for example, looks like it could easily be made Title IX-neutral. Now they’re at 26 women and 22 men, or 54%-46%. Shifting one or two roster spots would put them where they need to be.

Other options might adding back women’s gymnastics but not restoring the men, since MGYM is on its last legs from an NCAA standpoint.

Frankly, if Title IX had been designed pragmatically, some way would have been found to accommodate football. The sheer size of the rosters puts everything else out of balance, particularly as women increasingly predominate as a component of the student population. The result is a dearth of opportunities for men in other sports at many universities, which will be bad for the long-term health of many sports in the U.S. — fewer participants, fewer coaches, less interest, etc.

The drafters of Title IX also assumed the same percentage of college men and women desire to play interscholastic sports and that both sexes do so with the same intensity of interest. Are there studies that support this? Do the fine women of the Nebraska bowling team or the Auburn equestrian squad play their sport because they love it, or do they do it for the scholarship money?

There are fewer opportunities at all levels for women to play sports, on top of societal gender stereotypes that discourage women from playing sports. Pretty much your whole post is why Title IX exists. Why would you need studies to show that there is equal interest? Shouldn't you need studies to show there isn't?

If you had two kids, one boy and one girl, the boy can pretty much decide to play any sport and have an opportunity to play it throughout at least his collegiate life. Until you can say the same about the girl, Title IX is necessary. Since Title IX, female participation in sports has skyrocketed, in nearly all cases wherever there were opportunities created they were filled. I put the "nearly all" in there because I don't have numbers for every high school and college across the country. From this paper (https://thesportjournal.org/article/expo...-athletes/)
"This increased accessibility to sports sparked a change of less than 32,000 intercollegiate women and 300,000 high school girls that participated in sports prior to ‘Title IX’ to 200,000 intercollegiate women and three million girls that participated in sports in 2010."

With regard to that timespan, in the last 10 years of it men's and women's participants grew in similar numbers. https://www.espn.com/espnw/title-ix/stor...s-title-ix
"According to data released by the NCAA in 2011, the number of male student-athletes has grown from 214,464 in 2002 to 252,946 in 2011. That's an increase of 38,482. During that same period, the number of female student-athletes increased from 158,469 to 191,131, a gain of 32,662." That's roughly 16% for males, 18% for females.

For more from the NCAA,
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/incl...-questions

Title IX is not perfect, but most efforts to modify it are simply efforts to spend more money on football. Men's swimming and gymnastics aren't competing for scholarships with women's swimming and gymnastics. They're competing with football.
10-17-2020 04:15 PM
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Tribal Online
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W&M Cuts 7 Sports
Why can't my daughter play any sport she wants?

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10-17-2020 04:24 PM
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TribeFan1983 Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-17-2020 04:24 PM)Tribal Wrote:  Why can't my daughter play any sport she wants?

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Of course, she can. Title IX has done wonderful things for women in elementary and secondary school. The question is, at the collegiate level, compared to male athletes, does she want to play sports? Or, are we goading more women into college sports in the name of precise, absolute gender equality?
(This post was last modified: 10-17-2020 05:11 PM by TribeFan1983.)
10-17-2020 05:09 PM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-17-2020 05:09 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  
(10-17-2020 04:24 PM)Tribal Wrote:  Why can't my daughter play any sport she wants?

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Of course, she can. Title IX has done wonderful things for women in elementary and secondary school. The question is, at the collegiate level, compared to male athletes, does she want to play sports? Or, are we goading more women into college sports in the name of precise, absolute gender equality?

Yes, all those poor women who don't want to play sports but are being forced into it.

Tribal, most likely if she can't it's because the sport isn't offered, because sports offerings for girls are still lagging.
10-17-2020 05:16 PM
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Tribal Online
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W&M Cuts 7 Sports
"If you had two kids, one boy and one girl, the boy can pretty much decide to play any sport and have an opportunity to play it throughout at least his collegiate life. Until you can say the same about the girl, Title IX is necessary."

My question is, why can't I say that about my daughter?


I married into a very athletic family. My wife and all of her sisters played soccer, field hockey, basketball, and ran track at the HS level. Two played D1 soccer. One of my best friends has 2 boys and 4 girls (one son is Trey Porter, MBB with GMU, ODU, and Nevada). One son and all 4 girls played either D1 basketball or volleyball. I'd hate to think that my daughter won't have those opportunities.

I'd argue that my daughter will have a better shot at playing in college than either of my boys. (My soccer son would totally argue against that).

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(This post was last modified: 10-17-2020 07:04 PM by Tribal.)
10-17-2020 06:59 PM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-17-2020 06:59 PM)Tribal Wrote:  "If you had two kids, one boy and one girl, the boy can pretty much decide to play any sport and have an opportunity to play it throughout at least his collegiate life. Until you can say the same about the girl, Title IX is necessary."

My question is, why can't I say that about my daughter?


I married into a very athletic family. My wife and all of her sisters played soccer, field hockey, basketball, and ran track at the HS level. Two played D1 soccer. One of my best friends has 2 boys and 4 girls (one son is Trey Porter, MBB with GMU, ODU, and Nevada). One son and all 4 girls played either D1 basketball or volleyball. I'd hate to think that my daughter won't have those opportunities.

I'd argue that my daughter will have a better shot at playing in college than either of my boys. (My soccer son would totally argue against that).

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I'm confused. My example is talking about opportunity to play high school and college sports. There's still a disparity in opportunities for boys and girls at the high school level, driven by the existence of actual opportunity and also by gender stereotypes. That's my point.
10-17-2020 11:37 PM
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Tribal Online
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-17-2020 11:37 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  
(10-17-2020 06:59 PM)Tribal Wrote:  "If you had two kids, one boy and one girl, the boy can pretty much decide to play any sport and have an opportunity to play it throughout at least his collegiate life. Until you can say the same about the girl, Title IX is necessary."

My question is, why can't I say that about my daughter?


I married into a very athletic family. My wife and all of her sisters played soccer, field hockey, basketball, and ran track at the HS level. Two played D1 soccer. One of my best friends has 2 boys and 4 girls (one son is Trey Porter, MBB with GMU, ODU, and Nevada). One son and all 4 girls played either D1 basketball or volleyball. I'd hate to think that my daughter won't have those opportunities.

I'd argue that my daughter will have a better shot at playing in college than either of my boys. (My soccer son would totally argue against that).

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I'm confused. My example is talking about opportunity to play high school and college sports. There's still a disparity in opportunities for boys and girls at the high school level, driven by the existence of actual opportunity and also by gender stereotypes. That's my point.

I know what you mean. I'm asking you to support your statements with examples or data. If you said women don't have the same coaching opportunities at the college level, I would completely agree, but we're talking about HS & college athletes.

What opportunities do boys have that girls do not when it comes to playing sports in high school and college?

What stereotypes?



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(This post was last modified: 10-18-2020 05:46 AM by Tribal.)
10-18-2020 05:40 AM
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Tribe3455 Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
I have a daughter who is an athlete. It will be so much easier for her to get a scholarship than it was for my son. Almost all sports where both men and women play the women have more scholarships. Basketball, soccer, lacrosse, golf, softball (over baseball). If there is a problem with opportunities for women in sports (there is, no doubt) it is NOT because of collegiate sports. It is a societal issue not one created by the NCAA.
10-18-2020 07:07 AM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
http://users.nber.org/~bstevens/papers/T...0(old).pdf

"Approximately half of all girls currently participate in sports during high school, however, there remains a substantial gap between girls and boys participation in many states. States’ average education level and social attitudes regarding Title IX and women’s rights are correlated with this remaining gender gap. Examining individual high school students, sports participation is seen more frequently among those with a privileged background: white students with married, wealthy, educated parents are more likely to play sports. This finding points to an overlooked fact—while Title IX benefited girls by increasing the opportunity to play sports, these benefits were disproportionately reaped by those at the top of the income distribution."

I haven't been able to find recent numbers one way or the other. The only data that I can find is 10+ years old, and was showing that while increasing, opportunities were not yet equal.
10-18-2020 12:20 PM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-18-2020 07:07 AM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  I have a daughter who is an athlete. It will be so much easier for her to get a scholarship than it was for my son. Almost all sports where both men and women play the women have more scholarships. Basketball, soccer, lacrosse, golf, softball (over baseball). If there is a problem with opportunities for women in sports (there is, no doubt) it is NOT because of collegiate sports. It is a societal issue not one created by the NCAA.

It's also a football issue. Title IX requires a proportional number of scholarships for men's and women's sports. If football is taking 50+, there are that many fewer for other men's sports. I'm not arguing for a football exemption though. It's a complicated issue. Reducing football scholarships will disproportionately affect minority and low-income students who might not otherwise go to college. But making a football exemption will allow schools to continue to elevate it above all other sports, and there aren't many schools where that's justified. It's an issue where there should be active study and monitoring to make sure that whatever rules are decided are also reviewed regularly so that they're true to their intent.
10-18-2020 12:28 PM
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W&M Cuts 7 Sports
I don't know how they came to this conclusion, but it's the biggest bunch of garbage I've read in years:

"...white students with married, wealthy, educated parents are more likely to play sports."



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10-18-2020 02:25 PM
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Tribe3455 Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-18-2020 12:28 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  
(10-18-2020 07:07 AM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  I have a daughter who is an athlete. It will be so much easier for her to get a scholarship than it was for my son. Almost all sports where both men and women play the women have more scholarships. Basketball, soccer, lacrosse, golf, softball (over baseball). If there is a problem with opportunities for women in sports (there is, no doubt) it is NOT because of collegiate sports. It is a societal issue not one created by the NCAA.

It's also a football issue. Title IX requires a proportional number of scholarships for men's and women's sports. If football is taking 50+, there are that many fewer for other men's sports. I'm not arguing for a football exemption though. It's a complicated issue. Reducing football scholarships will disproportionately affect minority and low-income students who might not otherwise go to college. But making a football exemption will allow schools to continue to elevate it above all other sports, and there aren't many schools where that's justified. It's an issue where there should be active study and monitoring to make sure that whatever rules are decided are also reviewed regularly so that they're true to their intent.

This is just an incorrect take on opportunities that people make over and over again. Schools funding football scholarships fund more scholarships for women’s sports, especially, than they’d ever fund without football in play. In turn, schools without football also provide more scholarships for women’s sports than they would normally, simply to compete. One can make an argument that there shouldn’t be athletic scholarships at all at the university level but while we have them, football drives their existence in the athletics ‘marketplace’. It does not limit opportunities.
10-18-2020 03:07 PM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-18-2020 03:07 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-18-2020 12:28 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  
(10-18-2020 07:07 AM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  I have a daughter who is an athlete. It will be so much easier for her to get a scholarship than it was for my son. Almost all sports where both men and women play the women have more scholarships. Basketball, soccer, lacrosse, golf, softball (over baseball). If there is a problem with opportunities for women in sports (there is, no doubt) it is NOT because of collegiate sports. It is a societal issue not one created by the NCAA.

It's also a football issue. Title IX requires a proportional number of scholarships for men's and women's sports. If football is taking 50+, there are that many fewer for other men's sports. I'm not arguing for a football exemption though. It's a complicated issue. Reducing football scholarships will disproportionately affect minority and low-income students who might not otherwise go to college. But making a football exemption will allow schools to continue to elevate it above all other sports, and there aren't many schools where that's justified. It's an issue where there should be active study and monitoring to make sure that whatever rules are decided are also reviewed regularly so that they're true to their intent.

This is just an incorrect take on opportunities that people make over and over again. Schools funding football scholarships fund more scholarships for women’s sports, especially, than they’d ever fund without football in play. In turn, schools without football also provide more scholarships for women’s sports than they would normally, simply to compete. One can make an argument that there shouldn’t be athletic scholarships at all at the university level but while we have them, football drives their existence in the athletics ‘marketplace’. It does not limit opportunities.

The argument is not that football is limiting women's scholarship opportunities. It's that you have X men's scholarships and X women's scholarships. If you use 65 on football, then the rest of men's sports have 65 fewer. You said that sports where there are a men's team and a women's team usually have fewer scholarships on the men's side. Football is the reason why. I'm not making a value judgement about whether that should be, but that is the reason men's sports have fewer scholarships than their direct women's counterparts.
10-18-2020 03:32 PM
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-18-2020 02:25 PM)Tribal Wrote:  I don't know how they came to this conclusion, but it's the biggest bunch of garbage I've read in years:

"...white students with married, wealthy, educated parents are more likely to play sports."

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I would guess it's in the sources or tables cited in the paper.
10-18-2020 03:42 PM
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-18-2020 03:42 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  
(10-18-2020 02:25 PM)Tribal Wrote:  I don't know how they came to this conclusion, but it's the biggest bunch of garbage I've read in years:

"...white students with married, wealthy, educated parents are more likely to play sports."

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I would guess it's in the sources or tables cited in the paper.

I can see how that might be true for organized sports — fees to pay, driving around to be done, etc. Maybe playground/informal sports participants are harder to count?
10-18-2020 03:58 PM
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Tribal Online
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-18-2020 03:42 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  
(10-18-2020 02:25 PM)Tribal Wrote:  I don't know how they came to this conclusion, but it's the biggest bunch of garbage I've read in years:

"...white students with married, wealthy, educated parents are more likely to play sports."

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I would guess it's in the sources or tables cited in the paper.
Doesn't jive with commonsense

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10-18-2020 03:59 PM
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Tribe3455 Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-18-2020 03:32 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  
(10-18-2020 03:07 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-18-2020 12:28 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  
(10-18-2020 07:07 AM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  I have a daughter who is an athlete. It will be so much easier for her to get a scholarship than it was for my son. Almost all sports where both men and women play the women have more scholarships. Basketball, soccer, lacrosse, golf, softball (over baseball). If there is a problem with opportunities for women in sports (there is, no doubt) it is NOT because of collegiate sports. It is a societal issue not one created by the NCAA.

It's also a football issue. Title IX requires a proportional number of scholarships for men's and women's sports. If football is taking 50+, there are that many fewer for other men's sports. I'm not arguing for a football exemption though. It's a complicated issue. Reducing football scholarships will disproportionately affect minority and low-income students who might not otherwise go to college. But making a football exemption will allow schools to continue to elevate it above all other sports, and there aren't many schools where that's justified. It's an issue where there should be active study and monitoring to make sure that whatever rules are decided are also reviewed regularly so that they're true to their intent.

This is just an incorrect take on opportunities that people make over and over again. Schools funding football scholarships fund more scholarships for women’s sports, especially, than they’d ever fund without football in play. In turn, schools without football also provide more scholarships for women’s sports than they would normally, simply to compete. One can make an argument that there shouldn’t be athletic scholarships at all at the university level but while we have them, football drives their existence in the athletics ‘marketplace’. It does not limit opportunities.

The argument is not that football is limiting women's scholarship opportunities. It's that you have X men's scholarships and X women's scholarships. If you use 65 on football, then the rest of men's sports have 65 fewer. You said that sports where there are a men's team and a women's team usually have fewer scholarships on the men's side. Football is the reason why. I'm not making a value judgement about whether that should be, but that is the reason men's sports have fewer scholarships than their direct women's counterparts.

I hear you. And we are essentially arguing two different points. That’s my fault. I’m simply saying if football didn’t matter so much for most of the country then athletic scholarships would not be as big of an option for either men or women in other sports.
10-18-2020 04:47 PM
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-18-2020 03:59 PM)Tribal Wrote:  
(10-18-2020 03:42 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  
(10-18-2020 02:25 PM)Tribal Wrote:  I don't know how they came to this conclusion, but it's the biggest bunch of garbage I've read in years:

"...white students with married, wealthy, educated parents are more likely to play sports."

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I would guess it's in the sources or tables cited in the paper.
Doesn't jive with commonsense

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This is the person to contact: https://fordschool.umich.edu/faculty/betsey-stevenson
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