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Tribe3455 Offline
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Post: #661
RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-13-2020 08:47 PM)nj alum Wrote:  If the College doesn’t reinstate the Tribe 7, and listen to those of us who have decried the ineffectiveness of the NCAA for years, and that a new model is needed, maybe the College will listen to its peers:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...vey-shows/

Seriously, the AD didn’t catch whiff of these rumblings and moved ahead anyway?

The rules are going to change sooner than later.

One of the main rules that will change is a lowering of the minimum number of sports a university has to sponsor. That won’t only change at the highest level.
10-14-2020 06:25 AM
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ScottyB757 Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-13-2020 04:23 PM)Zorch Wrote:  The article says: "Ultimately, few of the cut varsity teams will actually perish. They will just transition to being club teams". So, does W&M have a club wrestling team? Does it have club fencing or club men's lacrosse? Maybe it does but I doubt it. Once it is gone, it is gone.

When did club sports become a thing? All we had were intramurals when I was at W&M in the early 80s.
10-14-2020 07:29 AM
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Tribal Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-14-2020 07:29 AM)ScottyB757 Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 04:23 PM)Zorch Wrote:  The article says: "Ultimately, few of the cut varsity teams will actually perish. They will just transition to being club teams". So, does W&M have a club wrestling team? Does it have club fencing or club men's lacrosse? Maybe it does but I doubt it. Once it is gone, it is gone.

When did club sports become a thing? All we had were intramurals when I was at W&M in the early 80s.
My buddy played club football at GMU back in the early 90s. I watched a game or two; vs Towson's JV football team, and I want to say, some JuCo out of WV. GMU's team was loaded with older players with a lot of experience, had coaches, real equipment, a bus and everything. Weird to see.


https://recreation.gmu.edu/mens-club-sports/football/

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(This post was last modified: 10-14-2020 07:51 AM by Tribal.)
10-14-2020 07:50 AM
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nj alum Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-14-2020 06:25 AM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 08:47 PM)nj alum Wrote:  If the College doesn’t reinstate the Tribe 7, and listen to those of us who have decried the ineffectiveness of the NCAA for years, and that a new model is needed, maybe the College will listen to its peers:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...vey-shows/

Seriously, the AD didn’t catch whiff of these rumblings and moved ahead anyway?

The rules are going to change sooner than later.

One of the main rules that will change is a lowering of the minimum number of sports a university has to sponsor. That won’t only change at the highest level.

I know that you were attempting to say “be careful what you wish for”, but you have instead pointed out a root cause of problems caused by the NCAA.

The NCAA has to get out of the national sports business, and drastically reduce sponsored sports, so as to allow each sport to be governed by its own governing body, or something similar, on a national or regional basis.
10-14-2020 07:57 AM
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bubbadog57 Offline
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Post: #665
RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
W&M has a major sports club program...42 in all! They include swimming, volleyball, gymnastics, even synchronized swimming!
One women's club team...the rugby club team, actually plays in a Division II conference! The club teams, all of whom financially
support themselves, include almost every sport but football and some like ice hockey, softball, racketball and squash rackets,
wrestling and fencing. Even Brazilian Jiu Jitsu!!! Almost all play schedules with other universities.

Perhaps this might suffice for some of the cut teams, especially the non-scholarship athletes. Just a thought

Complete list at https://tribelink.wm.edu/organizations?categories=8034
10-14-2020 04:03 PM
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Tribe3455 Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-14-2020 07:57 AM)nj alum Wrote:  
(10-14-2020 06:25 AM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 08:47 PM)nj alum Wrote:  If the College doesn’t reinstate the Tribe 7, and listen to those of us who have decried the ineffectiveness of the NCAA for years, and that a new model is needed, maybe the College will listen to its peers:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...vey-shows/

Seriously, the AD didn’t catch whiff of these rumblings and moved ahead anyway?

The rules are going to change sooner than later.

One of the main rules that will change is a lowering of the minimum number of sports a university has to sponsor. That won’t only change at the highest level.

I know that you were attempting to say “be careful what you wish for”, but you have instead pointed out a root cause of problems caused by the NCAA.

The NCAA has to get out of the national sports business, and drastically reduce sponsored sports, so as to allow each sport to be governed by its own governing body, or something similar, on a national or regional basis.

Not attempting to say that. Saying that. There will be less sponsored sports with zero doubt.
10-14-2020 05:41 PM
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soccerguy315 Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
Saying "we don't have sport X but we have a club team!" is not a viable option, IMO.

They are just completely different levels.
10-14-2020 11:40 PM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
At the risk of calling down sarcasm, ultimate frisbee is a pretty good example of a club sport model that has never been under the rule of the NCAA. There are some colleges that are beginning to offer scholarships for the sport. Given a more established sport like swimming or gymnastics, the scholarships might already be in place, but there would simply be a different governing board that was more in tune with the sport's particular needs. Think of USA gymnastics or USA swimming, maybe directly affiliated with USOC, maybe not.
(This post was last modified: 10-15-2020 08:38 AM by WMInTheBurg.)
10-15-2020 08:35 AM
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TDenverFan Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-15-2020 08:35 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  At the risk of calling down sarcasm, ultimate frisbee is a pretty good example of a club sport model that has never been under the rule of the NCAA. There are some colleges that are beginning to offer scholarships for the sport. Given a more established sport like swimming or gymnastics, the scholarships might already be in place, but there would simply be a different governing board that was more in tune with the sport's particular needs. Think of USA gymnastics or USA swimming, maybe directly affiliated with USOC, maybe not.

Yeah, as someone who played ultimate, USA Ultimate, for all my gripes with it, runs a pretty decent college system, with conferences based on geography and school size, nationwide rankings, and a playoff/championship at the end of every year. They work well to offer schools the resources they need, on a relatively limited budget.

Edit: Not saying club sports are a substitute for varsity sports, I just like talking about ultimate
(This post was last modified: 10-15-2020 09:55 AM by TDenverFan.)
10-15-2020 08:49 AM
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Zorch Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-14-2020 11:40 PM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  Saying "we don't have sport X but we have a club team!" is not a viable option, IMO.

They are just completely different levels.

The truth of this statement is demonstrated by the fact hat we already have club swimming, volleyball, and gymnastics while all three are still varsity sports. If club sports and varsity sports were basically the same then the club teams in those sports would not even exist.
(This post was last modified: 10-15-2020 09:06 AM by Zorch.)
10-15-2020 09:01 AM
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Tank55 Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
I don't think anyone is saying that club and varsity are the same, but rather that it's not self evident that W&M should be sponsoring sport X at one level or the other. If it were, then we should be striving to add ALL possible sports as varsity programs.

IMO, the club program is here to serve the student body. The varsity program is here to serve the school. There's not a lot bowling can offer the school. There is a lot basketball can offer. Thus, one is a good fit for club and another for varsity.

Obviously you need to get to 14 sports and satisfy Title IX. Beyond that, I think we need to ask how each additional sport is serving the school.
10-15-2020 09:56 AM
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WMTribe90 Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-15-2020 09:56 AM)Tank55 Wrote:  I don't think anyone is saying that club and varsity are the same, but rather that it's not self evident that W&M should be sponsoring sport X at one level or the other. If it were, then we should be striving to add ALL possible sports as varsity programs.

IMO, the club program is here to serve the student body. The varsity program is here to serve the school. There's not a lot bowling can offer the school. There is a lot basketball can offer. Thus, one is a good fit for club and another for varsity.

Obviously you need to get to 14 sports and satisfy Title IX. Beyond that, I think we need to ask how each additional sport is serving the school.

I disagree. If the question was really, "What’s in it for the College?", then it could reasonably be argued that the College should sponsor zero sports, since every sport is a financial drain and no sport brings W&M national prestige or can reliably be expected to do so given the competitive landscape.

Since its inception, college athletics was intended to benefit the participants and the student body experience. Athletics were a way to attract high achieving individuals, diversify the student body, build camaraderie on campus, and celebrate and pursue the limits of human achievement (i.e., developing the whole individual).

Of course this vision of athletics has been thoroughly corrupted over the years, to where athletes at P5 schools are separate from the “regular” student body, seen as little better than employees of the university’s marketing department.

So, I cringe when I see arguments that call for W&M to follow this trend, join the crowd, and abandon the original intent of college athletics fully. In my view these cancelled sports were accomplishing the core mission at a fraction of the per athlete cost of football and basketball. The core mission being the development of exception adults, future leaders, and well-rounded human beings of tested character. Let’s truly be bold and exceptional by keeping the actual goal of athletics in mind to the extent its economically feasible.
10-15-2020 10:23 AM
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Tank55 Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-15-2020 10:23 AM)WMTribe90 Wrote:  I disagree. If the question was really, "What’s in it for the College?", then it could reasonably be argued that the College should sponsor zero sports, since every sport is a financial drain and no sport brings W&M national prestige or can reliably be expected to do so given the competitive landscape.

Since its inception, college athletics was intended to benefit the participants and the student body experience. Athletics were a way to attract high achieving individuals, diversify the student body, build camaraderie on campus, and celebrate and pursue the limits of human achievement (i.e., developing the whole individual).

I didn't mean to suggest that the benefits to the College are strictly financial. And if we decide that yes, W&M is better off with a varsity swimming program, that's fine. I would just ask why we also wouldn't be even better off with wrestling, softball, etc. Shouldn't we be adding sports?
10-15-2020 10:31 AM
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nj alum Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
I agree with WMTribe90.
10-15-2020 10:31 AM
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nj alum Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-15-2020 10:31 AM)Tank55 Wrote:  
(10-15-2020 10:23 AM)WMTribe90 Wrote:  I disagree. If the question was really, "What’s in it for the College?", then it could reasonably be argued that the College should sponsor zero sports, since every sport is a financial drain and no sport brings W&M national prestige or can reliably be expected to do so given the competitive landscape.

Since its inception, college athletics was intended to benefit the participants and the student body experience. Athletics were a way to attract high achieving individuals, diversify the student body, build camaraderie on campus, and celebrate and pursue the limits of human achievement (i.e., developing the whole individual).

I didn't mean to suggest that the benefits to the College are strictly financial. And if we decide that yes, W&M is better off with a varsity swimming program, that's fine. I would just ask why we also wouldn't be even better off with wrestling, softball, etc. Shouldn't we be adding sports?

Yes! In the post COVID world, who is going to spend four years at a residential college? Athletes!
10-15-2020 10:33 AM
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Old tribe Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-15-2020 09:56 AM)Tank55 Wrote:  I don't think anyone is saying that club and varsity are the same, but rather that it's not self evident that W&M should be sponsoring sport X at one level or the other. If it were, then we should be striving to add ALL possible sports as varsity programs.

IMO, the club program is here to serve the student body. The varsity program is here to serve the school. There's not a lot bowling can offer the school. There is a lot basketball can offer. Thus, one is a good fit for club and another for varsity.

Obviously you need to get to 14 sports and satisfy Title IX. Beyond that, I think we need to ask how each additional sport is serving the school.

Agree with this. As a Division I school with relatively limited resources, this is the inquiry that needs to take place and it's the inquiry that the school made when it decided to cut. I'm not saying the teams that were cut don't offer anything to the school, but it's a fact that other sports draw more eyeballs/recognition.
10-15-2020 11:59 AM
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TribePride91 Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
The problem that now exists is that current and future revenue are greatly at risk. Where there was extreme loyalty to Laycock and the football program and Shaver and the basketball program, the AD severely damaged both revenue streams and alienated a large portion of the fanbase. Now, current realities thanks to COVID affect the ability to generate revenue in either sport for a time near previous levels. It is no reflection at all on Coach London or Coach Fischer and perhaps some mending will occur quickly, but it is a difficult financial time to be trying to do that.

The only reasonable viable immediate solution would be to consult with the large donors on the Kaplan renovation. 41 million or even a large portion of it would potentially resolve some things. For example, could 10 million be used to resolve the next two years and get renovations done for 30 million instead??? I guess that would be up the donating parties and their willingness to help the overall W&M athletic community. A change there, good W&M based leadership, a large amount of kindness, humility and gratitude to the student athletes, other students and their families both publicly and in personal private communications likely turns things around.

Even with that, all current sport coaches and athletes face daily challenges to work through continued training and playing in front of no fans(or limited fans) for the future. But, the building blocks can and should be started now to prepare for celebrations when fans can return to cheer on the athletes/students.
10-15-2020 12:44 PM
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Zorch Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-15-2020 11:59 AM)Old tribe Wrote:  
(10-15-2020 09:56 AM)Tank55 Wrote:  I don't think anyone is saying that club and varsity are the same, but rather that it's not self evident that W&M should be sponsoring sport X at one level or the other. If it were, then we should be striving to add ALL possible sports as varsity programs.

IMO, the club program is here to serve the student body. The varsity program is here to serve the school. There's not a lot bowling can offer the school. There is a lot basketball can offer. Thus, one is a good fit for club and another for varsity.

Obviously you need to get to 14 sports and satisfy Title IX. Beyond that, I think we need to ask how each additional sport is serving the school.

Agree with this. As a Division I school with relatively limited resources, this is the inquiry that needs to take place and it's the inquiry that the school made when it decided to cut. I'm not saying the teams that were cut don't offer anything to the school, but it's a fact that other sports draw more eyeballs/recognition.

See the bold above. I think that it is a fact that football and basketball COULD draw more eyeballs than the Olympic sports -- but I don't necessarily agree that this is happening at W&M, and it is definitely not happening for W&M outside of W&M (or the CAA).

For example, someone posted that the Tribe has a men's basketball game at Georgia this year. There was a link to an article written from the Georgia perspective. That article mentioned that UGA is also playing Northeastern this year. That article said that W&M plays in the CAA (correct) and that Northeastern plays in the America East (or maybe it said NEC; either way, it was wrong). In fact, Northeastern has been in the CAA for how many years (how many decades?)? Northeastern has also been to the NCAA Tournament at least two times in the last, what, 6-8 years. So the point is: Northeastern has made the NCAA multiple times lately and yet an official P5 publication does not even know what conference they are in. So, apparently, none of the eyeballs that matter are looking at the CAA. It would be no different if W&M was making the tournament regularly. I venture to guess that by the time that would happen, that the P5 would have already broken away and NOBODY would even care what us mid-majors are doing.

The only attention anyone in our league gets is attention to JMU's football program -- and that attention is more of the variety that P5s don't want to schedule them.
10-15-2020 12:47 PM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-15-2020 11:59 AM)Old tribe Wrote:  
(10-15-2020 09:56 AM)Tank55 Wrote:  I don't think anyone is saying that club and varsity are the same, but rather that it's not self evident that W&M should be sponsoring sport X at one level or the other. If it were, then we should be striving to add ALL possible sports as varsity programs.

IMO, the club program is here to serve the student body. The varsity program is here to serve the school. There's not a lot bowling can offer the school. There is a lot basketball can offer. Thus, one is a good fit for club and another for varsity.

Obviously you need to get to 14 sports and satisfy Title IX. Beyond that, I think we need to ask how each additional sport is serving the school.

Agree with this. As a Division I school with relatively limited resources, this is the inquiry that needs to take place and it's the inquiry that the school made when it decided to cut. I'm not saying the teams that were cut don't offer anything to the school, but it's a fact that other sports draw more eyeballs/recognition.

A point needs to be made with regard to football, I think. It's unlikely that we'll get national recognition directly from game results, even if we return to being playoff regulars. FCS is not a big deal. However, football offers a unique event opportunity. When we play on the road, it's really easy to get an alumni event together centered around the game. Games are on Saturdays, meaning no worknight schedule finagling. Tailgating is as important for the event as the game itself. This is what football provides that no other sport does. Yeah, there's some people that are all about the game and the team and where we are in the rankings, but football games are events.
(This post was last modified: 10-15-2020 01:10 PM by WMInTheBurg.)
10-15-2020 01:06 PM
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Blow Gym rat Offline
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(10-15-2020 12:44 PM)TribePride91 Wrote:  ... The only reasonable viable immediate solution would be to consult with the large donors on the Kaplan renovation. 41 million or even a large portion of it would potentially resolve some things. For example, could 10 million be used to resolve the next two years and get renovations done for 30 million instead???

On a related topic, I looked a couple days ago at the announcement of the Kaplan renovation from last February. It waxed poetic about how the upgraded facilities would "advance excellence in all 23 varsity sports programs," "helping all of our student athletes flourish," etc.

While construction was supposed to be starting right about now (Fall 2020), it may not be too late to ask -- once final-final decisions on the Tribe 7 are made -- if the plans could be tweaked a bit and some savings realized if substantially fewer athletes are being served. In particular, if volleyball and gymnastics are not reinstated, that takes a big burden off the availability of the main Kaplan Arena court for practices for the basketball teams.
10-15-2020 01:10 PM
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