(09-17-2020 02:46 PM)DSL Wrote:  This article and map from the Flat Hat seems to show the memorial being built
somewhere between the Brafferton and the College Corner.
I thought it would be across the street from the Admissions Office.
Has the college announced an exact site?



http://flathatnews.com/2020/09/08/new-mo...mon-hardy/

I believe it will be placed next to Ewell Circle. As you walk from Jamestown Rd toward the Sunken Gardens on the brick path with Ewell Circle on your left, the memorial will be on the right (I think).

(09-18-2020 06:49 AM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  

(09-17-2020 02:46 PM)DSL Wrote:  This article and map from the Flat Hat seems to show the memorial being built
somewhere between the Brafferton and the College Corner.
I thought it would be across the street from the Admissions Office.
Has the college announced an exact site?



http://flathatnews.com/2020/09/08/new-mo...mon-hardy/

I believe it will be placed next to Ewell Circle. As you walk from Jamestown Rd toward the Sunken Gardens on the brick path with Ewell Circle on your left, the memorial will be on the right (I think).

That's what I had understood as well. I hope the Flat Hat's map just isn't accurate -- near the Brafferton is a bad idea.

That said, I like the author's idea of putting it on the corner across from Barrett and in front of Lemon/Hardy -- better visibility from the street and more student foot traffic (unless things have changed in recent years).

(09-18-2020 05:04 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(09-17-2020 07:48 PM)DSL Wrote:  Agree the UVA memorial is attractive and much better sited on Central Grounds.
The UVA memorial and the slope work well together and it's highly visible, located between the Rotunda and the Corner. This was already a location where students
would sit to study or congregate on a sunny day. It's also highly visible to the community.

Every aspect of the W&M memorial seems to fail compared to the UVA design and placement.

You're absolutely correct, DSL. Everything about the design and placement seems wrong, particularly when measured against UVA's excellent concept. Students won't sit and study or congregate to reflect on slavery if the monument is placed near the Brafferton as apparently proposed. Plus, that location has a lot of vehicle traffic as tourists approach a very confusing intersection. Inserting an odd boxy object there will generate quizzical looks but not much genuine interaction.

Did you ever think this monument isn’t being built to look pretty and satisfy your aesthetic preferences? Think about what it represents, not how you think it looks.

Still think it’s strange you don’t seem to care about the odd placement of the Monroe statue or anything our school has installed to celebrate dead white people.

Our memorial definitely makes the point that slavery was an ugly thing.

Visitors to our campus are quite impressed with the Monroe statute.
They are equally impressed that our college is associated with so many
famous "dead white people."

The phrase "dead white people" reflects a strong bias. Must be something to do
with that Critical Race Theory that is in fashion with the left these days.

Monroe statue is poorly placed and not crazy about the oversized pedestal. Would have been much better located 20 feet to the Northeast or Northwest, catercorner to Tucker.

Disagree about UVA's monument. Barely located on the campus. Close to the bars. Seems vanilla without much thought. They claim it represents a broken shackle, but to me, it simply the same as any other circular memorial. How about building something akin to the serpentine walls, built specifically so the students didnt have to see the slaves.

Artwork (which this is) will always be subjectively evaluated. The conversation is about execution, not about anything else. Something prominent will be importantly placed for the purpose of memorialization regardless, and it will stand in perpetuity. There is no reason to be hasty with design choice. This original concept is a good idea, but the final result is likely less aesthetically pleasing than it could be. I would have sent it back for additional revisions. Is there some hidden meaning to the blocky and otherwise bland shape? The hearth idea and the gateway idea were excellent. Locating near the Ancient campus is noteworthy, because that was the entire campus during Slavery and where this took place. Visibility matters. Memorializing the names of those enslaved is thoughtful. Just think the final execution was off, with the weight of the monument somewhat imbalanced. Im not an artist, but I am sure someone could have made the final choice generally more pleasing.

Like every other topic on this message board - some like it, some are ambivalent, and some hate it. It's all opinion and there isn't a right or wrong here.
No matter how sure you are and how well thought out your posts are, it is simply your opinion. Be kind to each other.

(09-18-2020 10:44 AM)nogretheogre Wrote:  Artwork (which this is) will always be subjectively evaluated. The conversation is about execution, not about anything else. Something prominent will be importantly placed for the purpose of memorialization regardless, and it will stand in perpetuity. There is no reason to be hasty with design choice. This original concept is a good idea, but the final result is likely less aesthetically pleasing than it could be. I would have sent it back for additional revisions. Is there some hidden meaning to the blocky and otherwise bland shape? The hearth idea and the gateway idea were excellent. Locating near the Ancient campus is noteworthy, because that was the entire campus during Slavery and where this took place. Visibility matters. Memorializing the names of those enslaved is thoughtful. Just think the final execution was off, with the weight of the monument somewhat imbalanced. Im not an artist, but I am sure someone could have made the final choice generally more pleasing.

From the WaPo article (from 2018?) someone linked earlier:

“The deadline for submitting ideas for the proposal is Oct. 12. Submissions will be judged by a nine-member panel that will select three ideas and submit them to Rowe for consideration. She will determine which idea to present to the Board of Visitors at its meeting in February.”

Now you know where to start when suggesting any changes.

I think I gathered from another article that Rowe chose the design from a pool narrowed down from over 80 submissions by a field of experts in academia, art, and history. I'm not sure what else she could have done.

https://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2019/con...m-mary.php

I agree Monroe doesn't need to be in the exact middle of the sidewalk.
Jefferson's placement is also strange. I would put him somewhere in front of
Ewell and visible from the Monroe statute.

If we could charge a fee to all of the tourists taking selfies with our statutes,
we might be able to finance seven athletic teams.

(09-18-2020 11:07 AM)DSL Wrote:  If we could charge a fee to all of the tourists taking selfies with our statutes,
we might be able to finance seven athletic teams.

No, Ms. Huge looked under that rock. Remember? Every single rock was turned over - no exceptions.

(09-08-2020 04:32 PM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  

(09-08-2020 08:17 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  I don't recall the same calls for votes or mass approval when the school installed a Monroe statue a few years back...

hah, I was just thinking about this statue today (I think... the one in front of Tucker right?).

I don't have any issue with Monroe, but that statue is an ugly monstrosity and out of place and in the middle of the freaking walkway.

It was a terrible decision to put it there.

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I agree the Monroe statue is not the most comely ever seen and I have no objection should it be moved elsewhere on campus. Monroe WAS a W&M graduate and 5th President of the US and was prominent and influential in US history during his lifetime. The Monroe statue, like all of the other memorials/statues on campus cost, at most, a couple hundred $$ and was funded entirely by W&M Alums with the College agreeing to the placement and location. Even the replica of Lord Bottyetot, which replaced the original, a gift to the College and now on display in the Swemm Library, was entirely paid for by alums from my class.

The proposed memorial to African Slaves is projected to cost [what?, I think I have read millions of dollars]. Is slavery The Most Important thing to ever happen at W&M? Slave labor was utilized in all 13 Colonies and did much of the construction thruout the Colonies during the Colonial period. BUT human slavery as an institution had been practiced on every Continent in the World for for hundreds, if not thousands of years before 1693.

The trans-Atlantic Slave Trade was a brutal operation that has been well documented by historians. The numbers are staggering. Approximately 14,000,000 Africans were enslaved by other Africans while still living in Africa. These poor souls were marched to the various slave trading "Forts" on the West Coast of the African Continent. The surviving 12,000,000 were sold or traded to european slave traders who transported these people to the Americas. The mortality of the Atlantic Crossing was brutal and the longer at sea, the more died. Most of the slaves went to the Carribean and South and Central America and a few made it to North America. In fact, the total number of slaves "transported" to North America was roughly 350,000 over the entire period of the trans-Atlantic slave trade. At the beginning of the American Civil War approximately 4 - 5,000,000 African Slaves were living in the United States, primarily in the American South.

I am concerned about the proportionality and the timing of the proposed memorial. We can move, or remove the statue of Monroe and nobody will care - can you imagine the rioting that would take place if 25 years from today "somebody" decides the African Memorial is Ugly, or in the wrong place, etc?? and decide to move OR to remove it?? We know that in some cases, mob violence, and even mob rule has overwhelmed major American cities.

I propose that W&M have an objective unbiased third party revied the entire subject to make sure we are not rushing to a hasty judgement on this entire issue of W&M's responsibility for slavery, the Lemon project, and the proposed memorial.

I haven't seen anyone walk into the Monroe statue yet!

This whole conversation reminds me, in some ways, of the controversy over the Vietnam Veterans Memorial many years ago. Although unlike the Vietnam Veterans, the actual subjects honored/remembered by this memorial aren't around to give their input.

(09-18-2020 10:33 AM)DSL Wrote:  Our memorial definitely makes the point that slavery was an ugly thing.

Visitors to our campus are quite impressed with the Monroe statute.
They are equally impressed that our college is associated with so many
famous "dead white people."

The phrase "dead white people" reflects a strong bias. Must be something to do
with that Critical Race Theory that is in fashion with the left these days.

What’s inaccurate about that phrase? And yeah I actually write professionally on critical race theory. Might make you a better person to learn about it instead of jumping to conclusions based on weird media interpretations of it.

(09-18-2020 11:17 AM)62Indian Wrote:  I propose that W&M have an objective unbiased third party revied the entire subject to make sure we are not rushing to a hasty judgement on this entire issue of W&M's responsibility for slavery, the Lemon project, and the proposed memorial.

Who would the "objective unbiased third party" be exactly? I keep hearing that this is being "rushed"... this is the result of 5-10 years of work. Some people not knowing about it less the result of secrecy (of which there was none) and more the result of not knowing about literally everything that goes on. Quite frankly, the size of this thread is pretty ridiculous.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

I wrote a paper at W&M that I will never forget. Professor instructed us to choose a hot button topic for which we had a strong opinion. Then, write a paper supporting the opposite view.

I no longer support the death penalty because of that assignment.

Maybe we should write Huge, Memorial, and COVID-19 papers.

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(09-18-2020 12:41 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(09-18-2020 11:17 AM)62Indian Wrote:  I propose that W&M have an objective unbiased third party revied the entire subject to make sure we are not rushing to a hasty judgement on this entire issue of W&M's responsibility for slavery, the Lemon project, and the proposed memorial.

Who would the "objective unbiased third party" be exactly? I keep hearing that this is being "rushed"... this is the result of 5-10 years of work. Some people not knowing about it less the result of secrecy (of which there was none) and more the result of not knowing about literally everything that goes on. Quite frankly, the size of this thread is pretty ridiculous.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

Yeah, it is ridiculous. If this was a monument to commemorate anything other than slavery’s role in our school’s past, I guarantee it wouldn’t generate this much controversy.

(09-18-2020 12:41 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(09-18-2020 11:17 AM)62Indian Wrote:  I propose that W&M have an objective unbiased third party revied the entire subject to make sure we are not rushing to a hasty judgement on this entire issue of W&M's responsibility for slavery, the Lemon project, and the proposed memorial.

Who would the "objective unbiased third party" be exactly? I keep hearing that this is being "rushed"... this is the result of 5-10 years of work. Some people not knowing about it less the result of secrecy (of which there was none) and more the result of not knowing about literally everything that goes on. Quite frankly, the size of this thread is pretty ridiculous.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

I volunteer. I don't know anybody more reasonable, objective and unbiased than me. And, in all humility, I've never met anybody with better taste.

(This would be a paying gig, right?)

Objections are being raised for different reasons, which I think is driving the confusion on this thread. I wholeheartedly support 99.9% of the choices made, but just wish for slight alterations to make this look better. Maybe Im just picky.


"Final" mockup : Original mockup:: ISC1 : ISC3/Lemon/Hardy Hall

(09-18-2020 12:30 PM)Swemster Wrote:  

(09-18-2020 10:33 AM)DSL Wrote:  Our memorial definitely makes the point that slavery was an ugly thing.

Visitors to our campus are quite impressed with the Monroe statute.
They are equally impressed that our college is associated with so many
famous "dead white people."

The phrase "dead white people" reflects a strong bias. Must be something to do
with that Critical Race Theory that is in fashion with the left these days.

What’s inaccurate about that phrase? And yeah I actually write professionally on critical race theory. Might make you a better person to learn about it instead of jumping to conclusions based on weird media interpretations of it.

W&M's proud heritage is fundamental to our identity and appeal. We used to celebrate our ties to Washington, Jefferson, etc. and revel in our our status as Alma Mater of a Nation. W&M's key role in the development of colonial America and the Revolution drives students to enroll here instead of other elite colleges. Without our ties to those "dead white people," we are a greatly diminished institution.