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Why state universities have had to reopen
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Love and Honor Offline
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Why state universities have had to reopen
Good article, athletics aren't referenced directly but the issue discussed does have implications on college sports.

Quote:This leads to another problem: the business model of education. This phrase does not mean, as one might imagine, a university’s financial plan. Rather, it refers to the efforts to impose a business-style management system on the university. One of the hallmarks of this approach is treating students as customers and competing with other universities to attract those customers...

What a school can advertise, through glossy pamphlets, professionally produced websites, and those iconic tours, are campus amenities: rock-climbing walls, state-of-the-art gyms, and ample dining options. University leadership, looking to compete for students, promises a fun student life, in place of an educational one. And, of course, those amenities cost money...

Now that universities face the emergency of a pandemic, they are stuck. Calling a halt to on-campus operations and going totally online, thereby waiving on-campus fees, was the right, moral choice. And yet it was the option that this reckless system could never take, because those inflated fees were needed to pay the fixed costs of the business model. Without sufficient state funds, universities are reliant on federal grant money, which requires students to enroll. If online courses drive away even a fraction of those students, the house of cards will collapse. For the university to do the right thing would be financial suicide.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archiv...en/615565/
08-23-2020 04:51 PM
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
It's time to get govenrment money out of higher education completely.

In the short term, tuition will go up. But as schools start to adjust, they won't do the things that got them into trouble in the first place.
08-23-2020 07:16 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
Nah, I want the state to offer higher education. It’s a matter of access and that kids should have a right to get there. You can’t get that with the private options.

The state needs to thin the herds. That’s easier to say than actually do, since the politics are nasty.
08-24-2020 02:06 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
(08-23-2020 04:51 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Good article, athletics aren't referenced directly but the issue discussed does have implications on college sports.

Quote:This leads to another problem: the business model of education. This phrase does not mean, as one might imagine, a university’s financial plan. Rather, it refers to the efforts to impose a business-style management system on the university. One of the hallmarks of this approach is treating students as customers and competing with other universities to attract those customers...

What a school can advertise, through glossy pamphlets, professionally produced websites, and those iconic tours, are campus amenities: rock-climbing walls, state-of-the-art gyms, and ample dining options. University leadership, looking to compete for students, promises a fun student life, in place of an educational one. And, of course, those amenities cost money...

Now that universities face the emergency of a pandemic, they are stuck. Calling a halt to on-campus operations and going totally online, thereby waiving on-campus fees, was the right, moral choice. And yet it was the option that this reckless system could never take, because those inflated fees were needed to pay the fixed costs of the business model. Without sufficient state funds, universities are reliant on federal grant money, which requires students to enroll. If online courses drive away even a fraction of those students, the house of cards will collapse. For the university to do the right thing would be financial suicide.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archiv...en/615565/

Typical pompous left-wing Atlantic article.

Let's see this writer make a "right moral choice" that bankrupts his household, results in his house and car being repossessed, kids kicked out of school, etc.

07-coffee3
08-24-2020 02:11 PM
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
Quote:This leads to another problem: the business model of education. This phrase does not mean, as one might imagine, a university’s financial plan. Rather, it refers to the efforts to impose a business-style management system on the university. One of the hallmarks of this approach is treating students as customers and competing with other universities to attract those customers...

What a school can advertise, through glossy pamphlets, professionally produced websites, and those iconic tours, are campus amenities: rock-climbing walls, state-of-the-art gyms, and ample dining options. University leadership, looking to compete for students, promises a fun student life, in place of an educational one. And, of course, those amenities cost money...

Now that universities face the emergency of a pandemic, they are stuck. Calling a halt to on-campus operations and going totally online, thereby waiving on-campus fees, was the right, moral choice. And yet it was the option that this reckless system could never take, because those inflated fees were needed to pay the fixed costs of the business model. Without sufficient state funds, universities are reliant on federal grant money, which requires students to enroll. If online courses drive away even a fraction of those students, the house of cards will collapse. For the university to do the right thing would be financial suicide.



I was told once that there's one big difference between the business models of private universities and state universities:

At private schools, the student is the customer. And the customer must be satisfied.

At state universities, the student is the PRODUCT. The customer is the taxpayers. To satisfy the customer, Big State U must produce high quality products (graduates) in a high quantity. That's why prices are lower - to make sure that high quality inputs (high school grads) are able to attend. That's also why grading is tougher and graduation rates are lower - state schools care more about producing high quality graduates than about satisfying the whims of 20-year olds.
(This post was last modified: 08-24-2020 02:32 PM by Captain Bearcat.)
08-24-2020 02:31 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
(08-24-2020 02:31 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
Quote:This leads to another problem: the business model of education. This phrase does not mean, as one might imagine, a university’s financial plan. Rather, it refers to the efforts to impose a business-style management system on the university. One of the hallmarks of this approach is treating students as customers and competing with other universities to attract those customers...

What a school can advertise, through glossy pamphlets, professionally produced websites, and those iconic tours, are campus amenities: rock-climbing walls, state-of-the-art gyms, and ample dining options. University leadership, looking to compete for students, promises a fun student life, in place of an educational one. And, of course, those amenities cost money...

Now that universities face the emergency of a pandemic, they are stuck. Calling a halt to on-campus operations and going totally online, thereby waiving on-campus fees, was the right, moral choice. And yet it was the option that this reckless system could never take, because those inflated fees were needed to pay the fixed costs of the business model. Without sufficient state funds, universities are reliant on federal grant money, which requires students to enroll. If online courses drive away even a fraction of those students, the house of cards will collapse. For the university to do the right thing would be financial suicide.



I was told once that there's one big difference between the business models of private universities and state universities:

At private schools, the student is the customer. And the customer must be satisfied.

At state universities, the student is the PRODUCT. The customer is the taxpayers. To satisfy the customer, Big State U must produce high quality products (graduates) in a high quantity. That's why prices are lower - to make sure that high quality inputs (high school grads) are able to attend. That's also why grading is tougher and graduation rates are lower - state schools care more about producing high quality graduates than about satisfying the whims of 20-year olds.

This comports with my experience. I have never worked at a private university but have many colleagues who are and have, and unless the private is elite, private employees are under constant pressure from the administration to cater to the whims of the students, each of whom is viewed as a walking $10,000 line on the budget that cannot be lost no matter what.

In contrast, at state schools, there is *some* of that, and it has grown over the years, but nothing like at private schools. Really, the primary "constituency" of a state school, the entity it panders to most, are government decision-making bodies such as the governor and the state legislature, since despite big cuts that is still its most important funding source.

Also of critical importance and hence pandering are Accrediting agencies. They get whatever they want too because the Federal government won't let students get government-backed grants or loans to attend non-accredited schools, which would be a death-knell to the school as well.
(This post was last modified: 08-24-2020 02:48 PM by quo vadis.)
08-24-2020 02:45 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
I’ve worked at private four-year schools, public four-year ones, and a public two-year school. YMMV. Especially in the public side. Like, there’s a big difference working at a place like Rutgers than maybe Kean to even Thomas Edison in NJ. Each one is different; the state impact is just not as consistent. You know the impact of state funding at all of those schools when it comes to tuition and programs. At a place like Rutgers, you don’t have NJ civil service and further state issues floating through the organization like you would at Rowan or TCNJ. Same kinda goes in PA: the differences between PSU and Temple, both commonwealth schools, to those like West Chester. But even within PASSHE schools, some like West Chester thrive, while Cheyney dies on the vine.
08-25-2020 06:10 AM
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
The model we switched to is similar to our healthcare model in that the unintended consequence is ridiculous inflation.

By moving the money from the school to the student survival is predicated on attracting significant numbers of customers. Because of loans, grants, and various scholarship programs most students aren’t price sensitive. The concept was designed to help fund attendance at religious colleges and was touted as a means to see consumers choose the best education rewarding quality. Reality is few 18 year olds and their families can sort the merits and concerns of getting a teaching degree at Arkansas, Arkansas State and Central Arkansas. They sort based on where friends are going, how the campus looks, proximity to home, food choices at the Student Union, the quality of dorms, fitness centers, bike/scooter rentals, WiFi, etc.

The net result is huge investments in non-educational amenities that drive up costs.
08-25-2020 09:38 PM
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
(08-25-2020 09:38 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The model we switched to is similar to our healthcare model in that the unintended consequence is ridiculous inflation.

By moving the money from the school to the student survival is predicated on attracting significant numbers of customers. Because of loans, grants, and various scholarship programs most students aren’t price sensitive. The concept was designed to help fund attendance at religious colleges and was touted as a means to see consumers choose the best education rewarding quality. Reality is few 18 year olds and their families can sort the merits and concerns of getting a teaching degree at Arkansas, Arkansas State and Central Arkansas. They sort based on where friends are going, how the campus looks, proximity to home, food choices at the Student Union, the quality of dorms, fitness centers, bike/scooter rentals, WiFi, etc.

The net result is huge investments in non-educational amenities that drive up costs.

I do think they look quite a bit at the merits. But yes, non-educational amenities definitely have an impact. And there is a big addition to costs that adds little real value.

At Texas, they just built a brand new graduate school of business. When I was there, there were 12,000 students in the college of business. And there were always empty classrooms. Now there are 5,000 and the undergrads get the whole building that wasn't full before and the grad students have their own building. Yes, its nice and flexible and tech ready, but its a lot of space that doesn't get used.
08-26-2020 08:59 AM
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
(08-26-2020 08:59 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-25-2020 09:38 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The model we switched to is similar to our healthcare model in that the unintended consequence is ridiculous inflation.

By moving the money from the school to the student survival is predicated on attracting significant numbers of customers. Because of loans, grants, and various scholarship programs most students aren’t price sensitive. The concept was designed to help fund attendance at religious colleges and was touted as a means to see consumers choose the best education rewarding quality. Reality is few 18 year olds and their families can sort the merits and concerns of getting a teaching degree at Arkansas, Arkansas State and Central Arkansas. They sort based on where friends are going, how the campus looks, proximity to home, food choices at the Student Union, the quality of dorms, fitness centers, bike/scooter rentals, WiFi, etc.

The net result is huge investments in non-educational amenities that drive up costs.

I do think they look quite a bit at the merits. But yes, non-educational amenities definitely have an impact. And there is a big addition to costs that adds little real value.

At Texas, they just built a brand new graduate school of business. When I was there, there were 12,000 students in the college of business. And there were always empty classrooms. Now there are 5,000 and the undergrads get the whole building that wasn't full before and the grad students have their own building. Yes, its nice and flexible and tech ready, but its a lot of space that doesn't get used.

When I was deciding where to go, I refused to look at the dorms (I'd just wait outside during that part of the campus tour). I didn't want to decide my academic future based on what the dorm room looked like. To this day, my Mom still tells people about it when they take their kids to look at colleges.
08-26-2020 10:29 AM
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
(08-26-2020 08:59 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-25-2020 09:38 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The model we switched to is similar to our healthcare model in that the unintended consequence is ridiculous inflation.

By moving the money from the school to the student survival is predicated on attracting significant numbers of customers. Because of loans, grants, and various scholarship programs most students aren’t price sensitive. The concept was designed to help fund attendance at religious colleges and was touted as a means to see consumers choose the best education rewarding quality. Reality is few 18 year olds and their families can sort the merits and concerns of getting a teaching degree at Arkansas, Arkansas State and Central Arkansas. They sort based on where friends are going, how the campus looks, proximity to home, food choices at the Student Union, the quality of dorms, fitness centers, bike/scooter rentals, WiFi, etc.

The net result is huge investments in non-educational amenities that drive up costs.

I do think they look quite a bit at the merits. But yes, non-educational amenities definitely have an impact. And there is a big addition to costs that adds little real value.

At Texas, they just built a brand new graduate school of business. When I was there, there were 12,000 students in the college of business. And there were always empty classrooms. Now there are 5,000 and the undergrads get the whole building that wasn't full before and the grad students have their own building. Yes, its nice and flexible and tech ready, but its a lot of space that doesn't get used.

Did you mix those numbers up?

Most schools of business have had enrollment booms over the past few decades. It's leveled off a bit in the last 5 years, but most flagships still have business school enrollments growing faster than the general student body.
08-26-2020 10:34 AM
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
California is the largest public system by far, the UC and CSU combine for over half a million students. They are almost completely online. That goes against the OP.

Big factors are pensions and fear that a year without on campus classes will lead people to be less inclined to go to on campus instruction in the future. The danger is greatest at directional schools which are already struggling with declining enrollment.

CYA is always the best explanation for most decisions. The only variable is where the pressure is coming from.
08-26-2020 12:13 PM
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
(08-26-2020 10:34 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(08-26-2020 08:59 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-25-2020 09:38 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The model we switched to is similar to our healthcare model in that the unintended consequence is ridiculous inflation.

By moving the money from the school to the student survival is predicated on attracting significant numbers of customers. Because of loans, grants, and various scholarship programs most students aren’t price sensitive. The concept was designed to help fund attendance at religious colleges and was touted as a means to see consumers choose the best education rewarding quality. Reality is few 18 year olds and their families can sort the merits and concerns of getting a teaching degree at Arkansas, Arkansas State and Central Arkansas. They sort based on where friends are going, how the campus looks, proximity to home, food choices at the Student Union, the quality of dorms, fitness centers, bike/scooter rentals, WiFi, etc.

The net result is huge investments in non-educational amenities that drive up costs.

I do think they look quite a bit at the merits. But yes, non-educational amenities definitely have an impact. And there is a big addition to costs that adds little real value.

At Texas, they just built a brand new graduate school of business. When I was there, there were 12,000 students in the college of business. And there were always empty classrooms. Now there are 5,000 and the undergrads get the whole building that wasn't full before and the grad students have their own building. Yes, its nice and flexible and tech ready, but its a lot of space that doesn't get used.

Did you mix those numbers up?

Most schools of business have had enrollment booms over the past few decades. It's leveled off a bit in the last 5 years, but most flagships still have business school enrollments growing faster than the general student body.

I think he’s saying there used to be 12,000 in one business building. They built a new graduate business building so now the 5,000 undergrads have the old building that used to accommodate 12,000 students.
08-26-2020 12:19 PM
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
(08-26-2020 12:13 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Big factors are pensions...

It happens on the private side with their retirement contributions, too.

When this first started, I thought we would see a seasonal lull in late spring to early fall. It would allow enough folks to sit at home but stay at work, then clock out and retire ahead of another boom. But still ongoing?

Some folks we know at the area private and public primary and secondary schools took the online shift as their call to retire. However, I think if you stayed on, any impact on the retirement contribution or pension side has some thinking they have to stay on even longer due to any possible loss.

And when you’re older and get more from the system by way of contributions, it hurts the bottom line of the institutions and states even more.
08-26-2020 01:56 PM
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
(08-26-2020 01:56 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(08-26-2020 12:13 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Big factors are pensions...

It happens on the private side with their retirement contributions, too.

When this first started, I thought we would see a seasonal lull in late spring to early fall. It would allow enough folks to sit at home but stay at work, then clock out and retire ahead of another boom. But still ongoing?

Some folks we know at the area private and public primary and secondary schools took the online shift as their call to retire. However, I think if you stayed on, any impact on the retirement contribution or pension side has some thinking they have to stay on even longer due to any possible loss.

And when you’re older and get more from the system by way of contributions, it hurts the bottom line of the institutions and states even more.

Public pensions can be pretty crazy. E.g., I just hit 25 years of service, so I've been able to enter a program that for the past three months has paid me my monthly pension amount into a special savings account, while I am still working full time and drawing my full salary. Heck I am actually making more than my full salary, because while this is going on I don't make contributions to the pension plan anymore, which amounts to about a $500 monthly raise. I can do this for 32 more months if I want.

I really can't justify this from a cost/benefit perspective, I'm making out far better than those who chose the 401K plan. E.g., I have a colleague who also just hit 25 years, we were hired at the same time and have basically made the same salary over the years. He chose the 401K plan, whereby he contributed 8% of his salary and the state kicked in a matching 8%. He told me he has about $550,000 in that 401K. To convert that into an annuity that would pay the benefit that I would get if i retired right now, at 56 (and that is currently going in to my savings each month), he'd need to have about $1.3 million. Oh well.

Of course, maybe I'll get run over a by a bus next week and the pension plan will save some money. Oh wait, if that happens, my wife gets my full benefit until she dies. Sheesh.
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2020 03:35 PM by quo vadis.)
08-26-2020 03:32 PM
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
I don't think any university in Arkansas has a defined benefit pension system any more. You get a percentage deducted and university contributes a percentage to TIAA/CREF and you can contribute more if you like
08-26-2020 04:12 PM
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
(08-26-2020 04:12 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  I don't think any university in Arkansas has a defined benefit pension system any more. You get a percentage deducted and university contributes a percentage to TIAA/CREF and you can contribute more if you like

Yes, I was lucky to start in 1995. At that time, I could retire after 20 years with my fractional pension amount at any age. In 2008 or so they changed it so that you had to have 20 years and be age 62 to retire, but I was already locked in under the terms of when I joined. So they still do have a defined benefit plan, but it now mimics what you could expect to get from TIAA but without the portability.

Thing is, though, faculty often just do not retire because the job is easy and prestigious. Two of my colleagues are 73 and 74, and our Associate Dean is 81. None have any plans to retire. So the pension plans make out easily. It's not like say General Motors, where the auto worker is counting down the years/months/days/minutes until he hits retirement age and says see ya later.
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2020 04:25 PM by quo vadis.)
08-26-2020 04:24 PM
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
(08-26-2020 04:12 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  I don't think any university in Arkansas has a defined benefit pension system any more. You get a percentage deducted and university contributes a percentage to TIAA/CREF and you can contribute more if you like

NJ has a pension for its classified employees under civil service or a mandated 401K for others. For classified employees, you vest after ten years. You can buy service credit, too. Since I worked for a public/county two-year school, I could have bought five years of service. I would have been vested by the time I left NJ. Barely 40, and I’d get a payout upon retirement age to my dying day. Of course, it cost too much to do then, but, yeah, it is a sweet deal. But, over there, if you’re in the pension, it’s an automatic 7.5% cut. I didn’t vest, so all I have is just whatever that 7.5% that pooled over my service. It wasn’t so bad, because I made more there, but others in the trades/skills who are already paid under market value, it’s kind of a life commitment. Those on the other program vest after a year or so, and the schools put in a good share.

PA has PSERS. Problem with their system is that Penn State is able to participate, even though it’s not a public school.

The politics make it unsustainable. Even with the risk you assume with other retirement options, I didn’t have much faith that if I did vest, when my time came, it would have been a smooth, automatic, consistent thing.
08-27-2020 07:39 AM
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
(08-26-2020 10:34 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(08-26-2020 08:59 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-25-2020 09:38 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The model we switched to is similar to our healthcare model in that the unintended consequence is ridiculous inflation.

By moving the money from the school to the student survival is predicated on attracting significant numbers of customers. Because of loans, grants, and various scholarship programs most students aren’t price sensitive. The concept was designed to help fund attendance at religious colleges and was touted as a means to see consumers choose the best education rewarding quality. Reality is few 18 year olds and their families can sort the merits and concerns of getting a teaching degree at Arkansas, Arkansas State and Central Arkansas. They sort based on where friends are going, how the campus looks, proximity to home, food choices at the Student Union, the quality of dorms, fitness centers, bike/scooter rentals, WiFi, etc.

The net result is huge investments in non-educational amenities that drive up costs.

I do think they look quite a bit at the merits. But yes, non-educational amenities definitely have an impact. And there is a big addition to costs that adds little real value.

At Texas, they just built a brand new graduate school of business. When I was there, there were 12,000 students in the college of business. And there were always empty classrooms. Now there are 5,000 and the undergrads get the whole building that wasn't full before and the grad students have their own building. Yes, its nice and flexible and tech ready, but its a lot of space that doesn't get used.

Did you mix those numbers up?

Most schools of business have had enrollment booms over the past few decades. It's leveled off a bit in the last 5 years, but most flagships still have business school enrollments growing faster than the general student body.

No. Texas still has the same 50,000 students it had when I was there, but they have shifted with more in computer sciences and engineering. The Accounting program was huge. But accounting demand has leveled off. Texas has also gotten a lot more difficult to get into which has changed the student body.
08-27-2020 10:43 AM
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RE: Why state universities have had to reopen
(08-26-2020 04:24 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(08-26-2020 04:12 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  I don't think any university in Arkansas has a defined benefit pension system any more. You get a percentage deducted and university contributes a percentage to TIAA/CREF and you can contribute more if you like

Yes, I was lucky to start in 1995. At that time, I could retire after 20 years with my fractional pension amount at any age. In 2008 or so they changed it so that you had to have 20 years and be age 62 to retire, but I was already locked in under the terms of when I joined. So they still do have a defined benefit plan, but it now mimics what you could expect to get from TIAA but without the portability.

Thing is, though, faculty often just do not retire because the job is easy and prestigious. Two of my colleagues are 73 and 74, and our Associate Dean is 81. None have any plans to retire. So the pension plans make out easily. It's not like say General Motors, where the auto worker is counting down the years/months/days/minutes until he hits retirement age and says see ya later.

Are you allowed to double-dip? (that's the expression they use in Ohio - when you retire and begin to collect your pension, then get rehired to do the same job you just left)

In California, faculty are allowed to teach half-time for half-salary for 5 years after they retire. So for 5 years they get a full pension plus half of their salary, and their only responsibility is teaching half the credit hours they used to. No service requirements or research requirements. Pretty sweet gig.
08-27-2020 01:40 PM
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