Maybe I’m missing something, but it seems to me this decision was driven totally by the optics that would be produced if you host a college football season while campuses are closed (I know they are not all currently closed, but I think most people expect campuses to start closing soon as the UC schools, UNC, and NC state did). It is already close to impossible to claim that college football and basketball players are amateurs, if you send all other students home but keep the athletes on campus, for no other reason than to make the school money, how can anyone say the players are not performing a job and should be receiving a paycheck?

And before people chime in about all the benefits that college athletes get, that really doesn’t matter. I am not an employment law expert, but my understanding is If you are performing a job you have to get paid at least minimum wage (with overtime). An employer can provide room and board in lieu of wage, but that arraignment has to be accepted by the employee, not forced on them. Also, colleges would have to track the value of room and board as well as the hours worked by the athletes to be in compliance.

In short, I view the Big 10 and Pac-12 decision as trying to save college football by maintaining arguments that the players are students first. Thus, if students are not supposed to be on campus an exception will not be granted for athletes. Moreover, I would think anything that further exposes college football and basketball as not actually related to higher education would put their tax exempt status (which is based on being an institution of higher education) at risk and invite lawsuits related to the artificial depression of wages (again, I’m not a tax law or antitrust law expert).

Not that it matters, but in my personal view college football and basketball athletes are more than students and should be getting paid for the massive value they create to a school and state.

That's what the NCAA is all about.

With money as high as it is now, the NCAA ways are fading fast.

The people in the Big Ten offices in Chicago thought the college football season was hanging by a thread and they figured if they shut it down they could start a chain reaction to get all of FBS to cancel the season and no one would question what they did and ask to see their work. Unfortunately for them they greatly underestimated how much the vast majority of players wanted to play and the resolve of the SEC and other leagues so now they're in a bind.

If you're the B1G you almost have to hope the season fails because if most teams finish it (and I think that's a real possibility( they're going to look awfully stupid.

(08-23-2020 01:46 PM)pjm.2021 Wrote:  Maybe I’m missing something, but it seems to me this decision was driven totally by the optics that would be produced if you host a college football season while campuses are closed (I know they are not all currently closed, but I think most people expect campuses to start closing soon as the UC schools, UNC, and NC state did). It is already close to impossible to claim that college football and basketball players are amateurs, if you send all other students home but keep the athletes on campus, for no other reason than to make the school money, how can anyone say the players are not performing a job and should be receiving a paycheck?

And before people chime in about all the benefits that college athletes get, that really doesn’t matter. I am not an employment law expert, but my understanding is If you are performing a job you have to get paid at least minimum wage (with overtime). An employer can provide room and board in lieu of wage, but that arraignment has to be accepted by the employee, not forced on them. Also, colleges would have to track the value of room and board as well as the hours worked by the athletes to be in compliance.

In short, I view the Big 10 and Pac-12 decision as trying to save college football by maintaining arguments that the players are students first. Thus, if students are not supposed to be on campus an exception will not be granted for athletes. Moreover, I would think anything that further exposes college football and basketball as not actually related to higher education would put their tax exempt status (which is based on being an institution of higher education) at risk and invite lawsuits related to the artificial depression of wages (again, I’m not a tax law or antitrust law expert).

Not that it matters, but in my personal view college football and basketball athletes are more than students and should be getting paid for the massive value they create to a school and state.

You're starting with a false assumption. North Carolina is not closed. They have switched to online classes for undergraduate classes. Dorms are still open, just with reduced capacity.

What a crock of crap.


College basketball players play games and practice while there are no students on campus, and no classes are being conducted .... EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

Ditto other sports like baseball and softball.

The idea that somehow, college football can't compete while there are no students on campus is just stupid.


The Big Ten and PAC 12 aren't trying to save college football.

They're scared as hell that they will be sued. Period. End of story.

(08-23-2020 02:47 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  The people in the Big Ten offices in Chicago thought the college football season was hanging by a thread and they figured if they shut it down they could start a chain reaction to get all of FBS to cancel the season and no one would question what they did and ask to see their work. Unfortunately for them they greatly underestimated how much the vast majority of players wanted to play and the resolve of the SEC and other leagues so now they're in a bind.

If you're the B1G you almost have to hope the season fails because if most teams finish it (and I think that's a real possibility( they're going to look awfully stupid.

Those other conferences who did not postpone football are a bunch of idiots. If I were the NCAA head? I would postpone football until spring. Other lower levels are doing it.

(08-23-2020 05:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-23-2020 02:47 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  The people in the Big Ten offices in Chicago thought the college football season was hanging by a thread and they figured if they shut it down they could start a chain reaction to get all of FBS to cancel the season and no one would question what they did and ask to see their work. Unfortunately for them they greatly underestimated how much the vast majority of players wanted to play and the resolve of the SEC and other leagues so now they're in a bind.

If you're the B1G you almost have to hope the season fails because if most teams finish it (and I think that's a real possibility( they're going to look awfully stupid.

Those other conferences who did not postpone football are a bunch of idiots. If I were the NCAA head? I would postpone football until spring. Other lower levels are doing it.

I wish I could buy your opinions for what they are really worth and sell them for what you think they are worth. My Grandkids that I don't have yet wouldn't ever have to worry about anything with the profit I'd make from that deal.

(08-23-2020 05:11 PM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  They're scared as hell that they will be sued. Period. End of story.

And they shouldn't be worried about being sued?

(08-23-2020 05:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-23-2020 02:47 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  The people in the Big Ten offices in Chicago thought the college football season was hanging by a thread and they figured if they shut it down they could start a chain reaction to get all of FBS to cancel the season and no one would question what they did and ask to see their work. Unfortunately for them they greatly underestimated how much the vast majority of players wanted to play and the resolve of the SEC and other leagues so now they're in a bind.

If you're the B1G you almost have to hope the season fails because if most teams finish it (and I think that's a real possibility( they're going to look awfully stupid.

Those other conferences who did not postpone football are a bunch of idiots. If I were the NCAA head? I would postpone football until spring. Other lower levels are doing it.

Except the NCAA has only notional control over FCS football. Any attempt to extend it would result in the power conferences seceding and forming a new governing body. Imagine how exciting March Madness would be without those schools.

(08-23-2020 01:46 PM)pjm.2021 Wrote:  Maybe I’m missing something, but it seems to me this decision was driven totally by the optics that would be produced if you host a college football season while campuses are closed (I know they are not all currently closed, but I think most people expect campuses to start closing soon as the UC schools, UNC, and NC state did).

Disagree. IMO the optics would be bad if the *school* is closed and yet they are playing athletics. But if classes are being held online? No problem with playing football at all. As someone else noted, athletics often go on during the summer or during the Christmas break when no students are attending classes on campus.

As long as the school is open and students are attending class, whether campus or online, IMO athletics are good to go.

(08-23-2020 05:47 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(08-23-2020 05:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-23-2020 02:47 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  The people in the Big Ten offices in Chicago thought the college football season was hanging by a thread and they figured if they shut it down they could start a chain reaction to get all of FBS to cancel the season and no one would question what they did and ask to see their work. Unfortunately for them they greatly underestimated how much the vast majority of players wanted to play and the resolve of the SEC and other leagues so now they're in a bind.

If you're the B1G you almost have to hope the season fails because if most teams finish it (and I think that's a real possibility( they're going to look awfully stupid.

Those other conferences who did not postpone football are a bunch of idiots. If I were the NCAA head? I would postpone football until spring. Other lower levels are doing it.

I wish I could buy your opinions for what they are really worth and sell them for what you think they are worth. My Grandkids that I don't have yet wouldn't ever have to worry about anything with the profit I'd make from that deal.

Yes, the idiots are the B10 and PAC who canceled ('postponed' is euphemistic language). They locked themselves in to a rigid outcome before it was necessary.

In contrast, the SEC/ACC/B12 have all of their options open. If things get worse, they can still cancel. If not, they can play. But the B1G and PAC are stuck not playing.

(08-23-2020 06:24 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  In contrast, the SEC/ACC/B12 have all of their options open. If things get worse, they can still cancel. If not, they can play. But the B1G and PAC are stuck not playing in the fall but football in the Spring springs eternal!.

FIFY!

(08-23-2020 01:46 PM)pjm.2021 Wrote:  Maybe I’m missing something, but it seems to me this decision was driven totally by the optics that would be produced if you host a college football season while campuses are closed (I know they are not all currently closed, but I think most people expect campuses to start closing soon as the UC schools, UNC, and NC state did). It is already close to impossible to claim that college football and basketball players are amateurs, if you send all other students home but keep the athletes on campus, for no other reason than to make the school money, how can anyone say the players are not performing a job and should be receiving a paycheck?

And before people chime in about all the benefits that college athletes get, that really doesn’t matter. I am not an employment law expert, but my understanding is If you are performing a job you have to get paid at least minimum wage (with overtime). An employer can provide room and board in lieu of wage, but that arraignment has to be accepted by the employee, not forced on them. Also, colleges would have to track the value of room and board as well as the hours worked by the athletes to be in compliance.

In short, I view the Big 10 and Pac-12 decision as trying to save college football by maintaining arguments that the players are students first. Thus, if students are not supposed to be on campus an exception will not be granted for athletes. Moreover, I would think anything that further exposes college football and basketball as not actually related to higher education would put their tax exempt status (which is based on being an institution of higher education) at risk and invite lawsuits related to the artificial depression of wages (again, I’m not a tax law or antitrust law expert).

Not that it matters, but in my personal view college football and basketball athletes are more than students and should be getting paid for the massive value they create to a school and state.

NC State and Carolina closed? That's new to me and my children. I wonder why one of them is still taking classes?

I think the OP has it backwards. The SEC, ACC, B12, AAC, CUSA, Sun Belt are trying to save college football...

(08-23-2020 05:49 PM)HiddenDragon Wrote:  

(08-23-2020 05:11 PM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  They're scared as hell that they will be sued. Period. End of story.

And they shouldn't be worried about being sued?

Yep ... they shouldn't worry ...

If they have protocols in place for handling positive cases. And are doing everything in their power to treat people who test positive ... they will be fine.

Because you know what? Football players from schools who canceled their fall seasons are catching this virus.

So having football isn't riskier than not having football.


Bottom line is the PAC and Big Ten BLEW IT ... BIG TIME.

(08-23-2020 01:46 PM)pjm.2021 Wrote:  Maybe I’m missing something, but it seems to me this decision was driven totally by the optics that would be produced if you host a college football season while campuses are closed (I know they are not all currently closed, but I think most people expect campuses to start closing soon as the UC schools, UNC, and NC state did). It is already close to impossible to claim that college football and basketball players are amateurs, if you send all other students home but keep the athletes on campus, for no other reason than to make the school money, how can anyone say the players are not performing a job and should be receiving a paycheck?

And before people chime in about all the benefits that college athletes get, that really doesn’t matter. I am not an employment law expert, but my understanding is If you are performing a job you have to get paid at least minimum wage (with overtime). An employer can provide room and board in lieu of wage, but that arraignment has to be accepted by the employee, not forced on them. Also, colleges would have to track the value of room and board as well as the hours worked by the athletes to be in compliance.

In short, I view the Big 10 and Pac-12 decision as trying to save college football by maintaining arguments that the players are students first. Thus, if students are not supposed to be on campus an exception will not be granted for athletes. Moreover, I would think anything that further exposes college football and basketball as not actually related to higher education would put their tax exempt status (which is based on being an institution of higher education) at risk and invite lawsuits related to the artificial depression of wages (again, I’m not a tax law or antitrust law expert).

Not that it matters, but in my personal view college football and basketball athletes are more than students and should be getting paid for the massive value they create to a school and state.

#weareunited killed P12 & B10 football for the fall plain and simple! Players united, Commish of each league closed down fall sports. Rumor has it that the BIG10 Commish closed down football despite every AD wanting to play in the fall...

After the lawsuit that took the EA NCAA video game away from everyone who plays video games it appears that some in leadership learned (fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on you), so for the time being the #weareunited players are benched and now can sit on the couch every saturday and watch the ACC/AAC/BIG12/CUSA/SEC/Sunbelt play this fall.

(08-23-2020 05:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-23-2020 02:47 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  The people in the Big Ten offices in Chicago thought the college football season was hanging by a thread and they figured if they shut it down they could start a chain reaction to get all of FBS to cancel the season and no one would question what they did and ask to see their work. Unfortunately for them they greatly underestimated how much the vast majority of players wanted to play and the resolve of the SEC and other leagues so now they're in a bind.

If you're the B1G you almost have to hope the season fails because if most teams finish it (and I think that's a real possibility( they're going to look awfully stupid.

Those other conferences who did not postpone football are a bunch of idiots. If I were the NCAA head? I would postpone football until spring. Other lower levels are doing it.

Wait, so you have no problem with spring football? I can tell you there won't be a vaccine ready even if the new cases probably wont be ad prevalent. So the risk somehow comes into the acceptable range if we kick off in January?

I like the OP argument, despite the fact that I think it's actually rooted in liability. But it is more consistent with the spirit of student athlete. In short the OP is an excellent indictment of the logic of those arguing for keeping football going in this forum.

The supporters are in favor of stripping away the thin veneer of student from student-athlete, saying openly they are there as gladiators to make the athletic department (and honestly hardly any University Institution) money. That makes them hired hands, nothing more. Covid-19 lays naked, especially with the maybe one dozen FCS schools playing only revenue games, this reality.

What I see as the danger here is the severing of the institution, necessitated by liability from the football teams, and maybe basketball. The alumni and fans seeing these as minor league professionals rather than University students like they were, are likely to drift away. As minor league sports it's an inferior product. G-League Basketball is much higher level than NCAA but nobody watches, most teams have to give away tickets. It is that "student" connection only that brings them to University games.

It's a dangerous game for the short term at the expense of the long term going on with the SEC, B12, ACC and others. As their campuses are forced to be closed and go online, the hypocrisy is laid ever more bare and naked for the public to see. The rogue and out of control nature of athletic departments and their detachment in all but maybe four or five cases from the Universities financial health and enrollment will be exposed.

Special pleading for CFB will resume after this post I'm sure.

(08-23-2020 11:03 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I like the OP argument, despite the fact that I think it's actually rooted in liability. But it is more consistent with the spirit of student athlete. In short the OP is an excellent indictment of the logic of those arguing for keeping football going in this forum.

The supporters are in favor of stripping away the thin veneer of student from student-athlete, saying openly they are there as gladiators to make the athletic department (and honestly hardly any University Institution) money. That makes them hired hands, nothing more. Covid-19 lays naked, especially with the maybe one dozen FCS schools playing only revenue games, this reality.

What I see as the danger here is the severing of the institution, necessitated by liability from the football teams, and maybe basketball. The alumni and fans seeing these as minor league professionals rather than University students like they were, are likely to drift away. As minor league sports it's an inferior product. G-League Basketball is much higher level than NCAA but nobody watches, most teams have to give away tickets. It is that "student" connection only that brings them to University games.

It's a dangerous game for the short term at the expense of the long term going on with the SEC, B12, ACC and others. As their campuses are forced to be closed and go online, the hypocrisy is laid ever more bare and naked for the public to see. The rogue and out of control nature of athletic departments and their detachment in all but maybe four or five cases from the Universities financial health and enrollment will be exposed.

Special pleading for CFB will resume after this post I'm sure.

Well the Big 10 and Pac 12 are the ones who look bad. They make it look like they quickly folded, before the facts were in, based on two things-a really bad study on heart issues with Covid and the fact that their athletes were organizing because they didn't trust the leadership.

You are absurdly criticizing the 6 conferences remaining when they have repeatedly said they want to play football, but have not guaranteed it. In doing so, its your own biases that have been stripped naked.

Personally I think its a bad idea, but NONE of the leaders are talking about why it really is a bad idea. Big gatherings of people promote the spread of the virus. And college football fans skew older than average. So they are promoting the spread into somewhat more vulnerable populations. Now maybe they can claim its a "protest"--of the other team!

(08-23-2020 11:32 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-23-2020 11:03 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I like the OP argument, despite the fact that I think it's actually rooted in liability. But it is more consistent with the spirit of student athlete. In short the OP is an excellent indictment of the logic of those arguing for keeping football going in this forum.

The supporters are in favor of stripping away the thin veneer of student from student-athlete, saying openly they are there as gladiators to make the athletic department (and honestly hardly any University Institution) money. That makes them hired hands, nothing more. Covid-19 lays naked, especially with the maybe one dozen FCS schools playing only revenue games, this reality.

What I see as the danger here is the severing of the institution, necessitated by liability from the football teams, and maybe basketball. The alumni and fans seeing these as minor league professionals rather than University students like they were, are likely to drift away. As minor league sports it's an inferior product. G-League Basketball is much higher level than NCAA but nobody watches, most teams have to give away tickets. It is that "student" connection only that brings them to University games.

It's a dangerous game for the short term at the expense of the long term going on with the SEC, B12, ACC and others. As their campuses are forced to be closed and go online, the hypocrisy is laid ever more bare and naked for the public to see. The rogue and out of control nature of athletic departments and their detachment in all but maybe four or five cases from the Universities financial health and enrollment will be exposed.

Special pleading for CFB will resume after this post I'm sure.

Well the Big 10 and Pac 12 are the ones who look bad. They make it look like they quickly folded, before the facts were in, based on two things-a really bad study on heart issues with Covid and the fact that their athletes were organizing because they didn't trust the leadership.

You are absurdly criticizing the 6 conferences remaining when they have repeatedly said they want to play football, but have not guaranteed it. In doing so, its your own biases that have been stripped naked.

Personally I think its a bad idea, but NONE of the leaders are talking about why it really is a bad idea. Big gatherings of people promote the spread of the virus. And college football fans skew older than average. So they are promoting the spread into somewhat more vulnerable populations. Now maybe they can claim its a "protest"--of the other team!

So how about those 6 conferences all declaring "no fans at all?" Given the various mandates on limiting gatherings states have issued, that would make a money grab - i mean football season - easier to absorb. Instead they want to continue as if everything is normal.