(08-25-2020 12:24 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 11:11 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 12:15 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 11:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  1. Warren didn't fail to lead. He failed to listen and more importantly to arbitrate a consensus. If anything he chose to make the decision instead of facilitating it.

I beg to differ with you sir, but as someone who has been in a leadership position if you fail to listen to those around you then you have failed to lead. You don't have to bend to their wishes, and you can still do the opposite of what they are saying if you are convinced it's the right thing to do but you sure as hell better listen or else the next time around you'll have nobody there to lead.

As usual you miss the point of nuance. To simply call Warren's action a failure to lead is to miss the specific issue that led to his failure so I'll spell it out.

A commissioners job is definitely one of arbitration and contract negotiation. The latter is why they are almost all contract attorneys. Failure to listen isn't as germane of an issue here, and in my opinion is a cheap pass as to what the crux of his failure was. His failure was the assumption of authority that he did not have without some kind of 3/4's majority as is the rule of that conference, and most others. He failed to follow procedure meaning that absent the required 3/4's vote he had no authority to act in this matter.

The real question is why wasn't there a vote? A vote gives him his legal authority provided 3/4's of the conference's presidents agree with him. If you don't take a vote you don't know if you have authority by the conference's rules in which to make a call. This is why some presidents can't recall having given consent.

Most conferences operate under the formal mandate that the 3/4's vote comes in a voice polling of the presidents. Therefore the president's know when they have voted and when they haven't. Most conferences agree that all decisions will be called unanimous once the conference has reached the 3/4's for the motion on the floor.

If all he did was fail to listen then the vote would have given him his authority, had there been a vote. But absent a vote he has no authority over this matter.

So the real question here Kaplony, not to just take the prima facia assertion of failure to listen which is a pretty cheap out, is did Warren act outside of the established rules and procedures of the Big 10. If he did he overreached his authority, which is the damned reason he didn't listen, or if he did he ignored what was being said, because without a recognized 3/4's vote he has no damned authority in this matter!

Now if you and Quo don't get this distinction you are missing the relevance of this as his conduct of the matter exceeds his authority. His authority is derived by the mutual consent of the presidents, not the position. The position is answerable to the presidents the same way a CEO is answerable to the board of directors.

So I beg to differ with you Sir! What kind of leadership have you experienced? Have you been the head of such a board and answered to the investors of it? I did for 20 years. It's one thing to hold a town meeting as an elected official where the vote gave you some power, or to be a volunteer in charge. It's quite another to be answerable to a panel of investors that hired you to lead. A conference commissioner is very much a CEO controlled by those who lead the invested institutions.

Maybe Warren didn't listen or maybe he did. What seems apparent is that not all presidents felt they held a vote, not a voice vote, and not a formal one. If that's the case the issue is much bigger than failure to listen, which while a poor characteristic in a leader, is much less severe than overreaching one's authority, or misleading those you represent. But you would know that if you had ever been in the position.

IMO, the likelihood of his dismissal will rest upon this distinction. I all he failed to do was listen I seriously doubt that Warren will be fired. The presidents will be reticent to dismiss the first Black commissioner of the Big 10 over something that will be called a growing edge in his leadership. If, however, it is proven that not all presidents were made aware that their conversation constituted a vote, or that an actual vote was even being held, then by their bylaws there are grounds for dismissal.

This was a massive decision upon which rested the potential loss of 100's of millions of dollars collectively. I see no way in which this matter falls to mere oversight.

Then perhaps you should have said that in the post that I quoted instead of saying what I did quote, then you wouldn't have got your feelings hurt when I corrected you.

As for the type of leadership I have experience with, the type where I made decisions that determined if people were able to salvage some of their possessions or lost it all. The kind where someone either comes out OK or is crippled for life. The kind where people either lived or they died. THAT kind of leadership position, the most important kind there is.

I didn't get my feeling hurt, just found another overreach on your part due to your failure to grasp the nuance. And as usual you twist it around to being about your sense of power in being the lone arbiter due to your position with the fire department. Those decisions are needed, but the Big 10 office wasn't on fire and lives weren't at stake in that moment, though livelihoods may well be. I commend all first responders Kap, but that kind of decision making is not corporate decision making and you know that! But it was you who implied that it was tantamount to your "knowing" the ins and outs of the boardroom. They do not correlate. One is protocol, politics, and persuasion. The other is the responsibility of the moment and reflects real time decision making that you must make and you alone.

You are deflecting because you know you are wrong. You aren't the only one to make a life or death decision in your time on Earth. You do what you can. There are those who make those decisions every day for all of us on macro levels. So no your decisions are only most important to those you directly impact. That's much more limited in scope than the ones I reference. Keep it in perspective.

The issue is whether Warren committed a breach of trust in which a firing is a defensible action. If that is failure to listen as poor leadership, probably not. If he didn't hold a vote, and acted as though he did, probably so.

(08-25-2020 12:50 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 12:24 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 11:11 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 12:15 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 11:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  1. Warren didn't fail to lead. He failed to listen and more importantly to arbitrate a consensus. If anything he chose to make the decision instead of facilitating it.

I beg to differ with you sir, but as someone who has been in a leadership position if you fail to listen to those around you then you have failed to lead. You don't have to bend to their wishes, and you can still do the opposite of what they are saying if you are convinced it's the right thing to do but you sure as hell better listen or else the next time around you'll have nobody there to lead.

As usual you miss the point of nuance. To simply call Warren's action a failure to lead is to miss the specific issue that led to his failure so I'll spell it out.

A commissioners job is definitely one of arbitration and contract negotiation. The latter is why they are almost all contract attorneys. Failure to listen isn't as germane of an issue here, and in my opinion is a cheap pass as to what the crux of his failure was. His failure was the assumption of authority that he did not have without some kind of 3/4's majority as is the rule of that conference, and most others. He failed to follow procedure meaning that absent the required 3/4's vote he had no authority to act in this matter.

The real question is why wasn't there a vote? A vote gives him his legal authority provided 3/4's of the conference's presidents agree with him. If you don't take a vote you don't know if you have authority by the conference's rules in which to make a call. This is why some presidents can't recall having given consent.

Most conferences operate under the formal mandate that the 3/4's vote comes in a voice polling of the presidents. Therefore the president's know when they have voted and when they haven't. Most conferences agree that all decisions will be called unanimous once the conference has reached the 3/4's for the motion on the floor.

If all he did was fail to listen then the vote would have given him his authority, had there been a vote. But absent a vote he has no authority over this matter.

So the real question here Kaplony, not to just take the prima facia assertion of failure to listen which is a pretty cheap out, is did Warren act outside of the established rules and procedures of the Big 10. If he did he overreached his authority, which is the damned reason he didn't listen, or if he did he ignored what was being said, because without a recognized 3/4's vote he has no damned authority in this matter!

Now if you and Quo don't get this distinction you are missing the relevance of this as his conduct of the matter exceeds his authority. His authority is derived by the mutual consent of the presidents, not the position. The position is answerable to the presidents the same way a CEO is answerable to the board of directors.

So I beg to differ with you Sir! What kind of leadership have you experienced? Have you been the head of such a board and answered to the investors of it? I did for 20 years. It's one thing to hold a town meeting as an elected official where the vote gave you some power, or to be a volunteer in charge. It's quite another to be answerable to a panel of investors that hired you to lead. A conference commissioner is very much a CEO controlled by those who lead the invested institutions.

Maybe Warren didn't listen or maybe he did. What seems apparent is that not all presidents felt they held a vote, not a voice vote, and not a formal one. If that's the case the issue is much bigger than failure to listen, which while a poor characteristic in a leader, is much less severe than overreaching one's authority, or misleading those you represent. But you would know that if you had ever been in the position.

IMO, the likelihood of his dismissal will rest upon this distinction. I all he failed to do was listen I seriously doubt that Warren will be fired. The presidents will be reticent to dismiss the first Black commissioner of the Big 10 over something that will be called a growing edge in his leadership. If, however, it is proven that not all presidents were made aware that their conversation constituted a vote, or that an actual vote was even being held, then by their bylaws there are grounds for dismissal.

This was a massive decision upon which rested the potential loss of 100's of millions of dollars collectively. I see no way in which this matter falls to mere oversight.

Then perhaps you should have said that in the post that I quoted instead of saying what I did quote, then you wouldn't have got your feelings hurt when I corrected you.

As for the type of leadership I have experience with, the type where I made decisions that determined if people were able to salvage some of their possessions or lost it all. The kind where someone either comes out OK or is crippled for life. The kind where people either lived or they died. THAT kind of leadership position, the most important kind there is.

I didn't get my feeling hurt, just found another overreach on your part due to your failure to grasp the nuance. And as usual you twist it around to being about your sense of power in being the lone arbiter due to your position with the fire department. Those decisions are needed, but the Big 10 office wasn't on fire and lives weren't at stake in that moment, though livelihoods may well be. I commend all first responders Kap, but that kind of decision making is not corporate decision making and you know that! But it was you implied as your "knowing" the ins and outs of the boardroom. They do not correlate. One is protocol, politics, and persuasion. The other is the responsibility of the moment and reflects real time decision making.

You are deflecting because you know you are wrong. You aren't the only one to make a life or death decision in your time on Earth. You do what you can. There are those who make those decisions every day for all of us on macro levels. So no your decisions are only most important to those you directly impact. That's much more limited in scope than the ones I reference. Keep it in perspective.

The issue is whether Warren committed a breach of trust in which a firing is a defensible action. If that is failure to listen as poor leadership, probably not. If he didn't hold a vote, and acted as though he did, probably so.

LOL

I "overreached" by quoting the EXACT unaltered statement you made and correcting it based upon my hundreds of hours of leadership training and real life experience?

LOL OK

(08-25-2020 12:11 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(08-23-2020 05:28 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Bunch of idiot ADs who are trying to over rule the schools' presidents.

Illinois AD Josh Whitman - Juris Doctor Illinois School of Law

Indiana AD Fred Glass - law degree Indiana School of Law

Iowa AD Gary Barta - BS Communications and Journalism North Dakota St

Maryland AD Damon Evans - M.Ed University of Georgia

Michigan AD Warde Manuel - MBA University of Michigan

Michigan St AD Bill Beekman - MBA Northwestern University, Juris Doctor Wayne State University

Minnesota AD Mark Coyle - M.Ed Drake University, Masters in Sports Administration Florida State University

Nebraska AD Bill Moos - BA History Washington State University

Northwestern AD Jim Phillips - Ph.D Educational Administration University of Tennessee

Ohio State AD Gene Smith - BA Business Administration University of Notre Dame

Penn State AD Sandy Barbour - MS Sports Management University of Massachusetts, MBA Northwestern University

Purdue AD Mike Bobinski - BA Business Amdinistration University of Notre Dame

Rutgers AD Pat Hobbs - Juris Doctor University of North Carolina, LL.M New York University

Wisconsin AD Barry Alvarez - Masters in something University of Nebraska



These are the people being called "idiots" by someone who struggles to create a post on a message board without grammatical errors that would give a sixth grader a headache.

I don't see the title President in front of their name. They have no say so in the matter. They should be ignore.

(08-25-2020 12:54 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 12:50 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 12:24 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 11:11 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 12:15 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  I beg to differ with you sir, but as someone who has been in a leadership position if you fail to listen to those around you then you have failed to lead. You don't have to bend to their wishes, and you can still do the opposite of what they are saying if you are convinced it's the right thing to do but you sure as hell better listen or else the next time around you'll have nobody there to lead.

As usual you miss the point of nuance. To simply call Warren's action a failure to lead is to miss the specific issue that led to his failure so I'll spell it out.

A commissioners job is definitely one of arbitration and contract negotiation. The latter is why they are almost all contract attorneys. Failure to listen isn't as germane of an issue here, and in my opinion is a cheap pass as to what the crux of his failure was. His failure was the assumption of authority that he did not have without some kind of 3/4's majority as is the rule of that conference, and most others. He failed to follow procedure meaning that absent the required 3/4's vote he had no authority to act in this matter.

The real question is why wasn't there a vote? A vote gives him his legal authority provided 3/4's of the conference's presidents agree with him. If you don't take a vote you don't know if you have authority by the conference's rules in which to make a call. This is why some presidents can't recall having given consent.

Most conferences operate under the formal mandate that the 3/4's vote comes in a voice polling of the presidents. Therefore the president's know when they have voted and when they haven't. Most conferences agree that all decisions will be called unanimous once the conference has reached the 3/4's for the motion on the floor.

If all he did was fail to listen then the vote would have given him his authority, had there been a vote. But absent a vote he has no authority over this matter.

So the real question here Kaplony, not to just take the prima facia assertion of failure to listen which is a pretty cheap out, is did Warren act outside of the established rules and procedures of the Big 10. If he did he overreached his authority, which is the damned reason he didn't listen, or if he did he ignored what was being said, because without a recognized 3/4's vote he has no damned authority in this matter!

Now if you and Quo don't get this distinction you are missing the relevance of this as his conduct of the matter exceeds his authority. His authority is derived by the mutual consent of the presidents, not the position. The position is answerable to the presidents the same way a CEO is answerable to the board of directors.

So I beg to differ with you Sir! What kind of leadership have you experienced? Have you been the head of such a board and answered to the investors of it? I did for 20 years. It's one thing to hold a town meeting as an elected official where the vote gave you some power, or to be a volunteer in charge. It's quite another to be answerable to a panel of investors that hired you to lead. A conference commissioner is very much a CEO controlled by those who lead the invested institutions.

Maybe Warren didn't listen or maybe he did. What seems apparent is that not all presidents felt they held a vote, not a voice vote, and not a formal one. If that's the case the issue is much bigger than failure to listen, which while a poor characteristic in a leader, is much less severe than overreaching one's authority, or misleading those you represent. But you would know that if you had ever been in the position.

IMO, the likelihood of his dismissal will rest upon this distinction. I all he failed to do was listen I seriously doubt that Warren will be fired. The presidents will be reticent to dismiss the first Black commissioner of the Big 10 over something that will be called a growing edge in his leadership. If, however, it is proven that not all presidents were made aware that their conversation constituted a vote, or that an actual vote was even being held, then by their bylaws there are grounds for dismissal.

This was a massive decision upon which rested the potential loss of 100's of millions of dollars collectively. I see no way in which this matter falls to mere oversight.

Then perhaps you should have said that in the post that I quoted instead of saying what I did quote, then you wouldn't have got your feelings hurt when I corrected you.

As for the type of leadership I have experience with, the type where I made decisions that determined if people were able to salvage some of their possessions or lost it all. The kind where someone either comes out OK or is crippled for life. The kind where people either lived or they died. THAT kind of leadership position, the most important kind there is.

I didn't get my feeling hurt, just found another overreach on your part due to your failure to grasp the nuance. And as usual you twist it around to being about your sense of power in being the lone arbiter due to your position with the fire department. Those decisions are needed, but the Big 10 office wasn't on fire and lives weren't at stake in that moment, though livelihoods may well be. I commend all first responders Kap, but that kind of decision making is not corporate decision making and you know that! But it was you implied as your "knowing" the ins and outs of the boardroom. They do not correlate. One is protocol, politics, and persuasion. The other is the responsibility of the moment and reflects real time decision making.

You are deflecting because you know you are wrong. You aren't the only one to make a life or death decision in your time on Earth. You do what you can. There are those who make those decisions every day for all of us on macro levels. So no your decisions are only most important to those you directly impact. That's much more limited in scope than the ones I reference. Keep it in perspective.

The issue is whether Warren committed a breach of trust in which a firing is a defensible action. If that is failure to listen as poor leadership, probably not. If he didn't hold a vote, and acted as though he did, probably so.

LOL

I "overreached" by quoting the EXACT unaltered statement you made and correcting it based upon my hundreds of hours of leadership training and real life experience?

LOL OK

The implication of the post was that Warren did worse than just fail to listen. Much like you did worse by trying to conflate that into a point. And Kap almost everyone with any executive experience has hundreds of hours of leadership training over the course of 40 plus years of service it would run well into thousands. The military provides much more than that.

In the past I used to supervise Fire and Police Chiefs. In most of the country they are not answerable to a board of directors in the sense that JR is talking about and they make tactical decisions in the field not strategic decisions regarding budgets, elections, or accountability to the public. In North Carolina for example it is the City Manager that is responsible to the Board for the decision of the Chiefs. When you are answerable to the Board, you damn well better be able to count.

It is a rare occasion that CEO/City Manager can act directly without the Boards tacit approval, let alone their legally voted approval. If you do, you have to be ready to be fired. Once in a blue moon you might take a decision on that is controversial and you will cut the Board out because for whatever legal or political reason, the Board CAN'T make that decision. Even then, when you did their unvoted bidding, you have to be ready to be canned in order for them to protect their position.

So the bottom is like this - if you take my 90 foot ladder truck 20 miles out of town to spray water on another town's downtown structure fire, and you didn't call me, you are going to get your assed chewed on because the board expects that. The board expects that because the voters expect that. The fact that you save the other town's business district is nice. The Board will call you into close session and chew your ass out. Then they will go out in public and call you a fine fellow who made a good command decision. But you exceeded your authority. As long as it turns out okay, you are okay.

If Warren made this decision unilaterally either he is really stupid, or there are unplayed cards not showing and something is being covered. I usually vote that people are not dumb, but are making decisions based on unseen factors.

(08-25-2020 03:05 PM)Statefan Wrote:  In the past I used to supervise Fire and Police Chiefs. In most of the country they are not answerable to a board of directors in the sense that JR is talking about and they make tactical decisions in the field not strategic decisions regarding budgets, elections, or accountability to the public. In North Carolina for example it is the City Manager that is responsible to the Board for the decision of the Chiefs. When you are answerable to the Board, you damn well better be able to count.

It is a rare occasion that CEO/City Manager can act directly without the Boards tacit approval, let alone their legally voted approval. If you do, you have to be ready to be fired. Once in a blue moon you might take a decision on that is controversial and you will cut the Board out because for whatever legal or political reason, the Board CAN'T make that decision. Even then, when you did their unvoted bidding, you have to be ready to be canned in order for them to protect their position.

So the bottom is like this - if you take my 90 foot ladder truck 20 miles out of town to spray water on another town's downtown structure fire, and you didn't call me, you are going to get your assed chewed on because the board expects that. The board expects that because the voters expect that. The fact that you save the other town's business district is nice. The Board will call you into close session and chew your ass out. Then they will go out in public and call you a fine fellow who made a good command decision. But you exceeded your authority. As long as it turns out okay, you are okay.

If Warren made this decision unilaterally either he is really stupid, or there are unplayed cards not showing and something is being covered. I usually vote that people are not dumb, but are making decisions based on unseen factors.

Yes I think that there is more to come. We just can't say that yet until more information comes out. My point is Warren is clearly more culpable of something other than just not listening. Now whether that culpability is heightened by what information comes out or lessened by it remains to be seen. Of course this is why I chose nuance. I can't categorically declare, but I sure can insinuate that there was more going on here than just not listening.

(08-23-2020 09:14 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-23-2020 08:56 PM)GTFletch Wrote:  August 5th Big Ten players follow Pac-12's lead in pushing for safety ahead of 2020 college football season

Link
https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...ll-season/

August 11th Big Ten & Pac 12 cancels all fall sports over coronavirus concerns

Link
https://www.latimes.com/sports/ucla/stor...s-concerns

#WeareUnited will be united on the Couch this season...The movement backfired!

The other conference to "unionize" was the MAC. So 3 of the 4 FBS conferences that cancelled.

The MAC canx was due to losing 21 $$ Games... The MAC cannot afford FBS level without those games and canx as soon as the BIG announced Conf games only!

Your point is probably true with the MWC as some MWC schools are in the Cali state and are tied to the P12... so they probably canx with some back channel union junk...who knows for sure..

However the PAC12 & BIG10 players thought they were really smart with the #WEAREUNITED movement and demands, but all that did was have the BIG10/P12 Commish and Presidents take the ball out of the AD hand and ensure those players can be united on the couch this year watching the BIG12, SEC, ACC...

Although rumors are 6 BIG10 schools may play despite the BIG10 Commish...

(08-25-2020 04:52 PM)GTFletch Wrote:  

(08-23-2020 09:14 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-23-2020 08:56 PM)GTFletch Wrote:  August 5th Big Ten players follow Pac-12's lead in pushing for safety ahead of 2020 college football season

Link
https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...ll-season/

August 11th Big Ten & Pac 12 cancels all fall sports over coronavirus concerns

Link
https://www.latimes.com/sports/ucla/stor...s-concerns

#WeareUnited will be united on the Couch this season...The movement backfired!

The other conference to "unionize" was the MAC. So 3 of the 4 FBS conferences that cancelled.

The MAC canx was due to losing 21 $$ Games... The MAC cannot afford FBS level without those games and canx as soon as the BIG announced Conf games only!

Your point is probably true with the MWC as some MWC schools are in the Cali state and are tied to the P12... so they probably canx with some back channel union junk...who knows for sure..

However the PAC12 & BIG10 players thought they were really smart with the #WEAREUNITED movement and demands, but all that did was have the BIG10/P12 Commish and Presidents take the ball out of the AD hand and ensure those players can be united on the couch this year watching the BIG12, SEC, ACC...

Although rumors are 6 BIG10 schools may play despite the BIG10 Commish...

Yeah, not all BIG schools were on board with the Big 10 United stance. I do feel the Big10 United stance was reasonable compared to the PAC's demands.

Quote:The Buckeyes athletes wrote the letter in response to the Big Ten United group. That group, which represents more than 1,000 conference athletes, put out a statement asking for more stringent safety and prevention protocols for COVID-19, more oversight and transparency with the guidelines and testing, and player assurances and medical and scholarship protection.

The response from the Ohio State athletes said they appreciate the Big Ten United group's intentions to protect players and voice concerns, but that it does not represent the efforts and actions at their school.

"We believe our institution is providing the proper structure and organization for safety," the letter said. "Here at Ohio State, we #SetTheStandard for what college athletics should look like amid COVID-19."

https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...-look-like

(08-25-2020 03:05 PM)Statefan Wrote:  In the past I used to supervise Fire and Police Chiefs. In most of the country they are not answerable to a board of directors in the sense that JR is talking about and they make tactical decisions in the field not strategic decisions regarding budgets, elections, or accountability to the public. In North Carolina for example it is the City Manager that is responsible to the Board for the decision of the Chiefs. When you are answerable to the Board, you damn well better be able to count.

It is a rare occasion that CEO/City Manager can act directly without the Boards tacit approval, let alone their legally voted approval. If you do, you have to be ready to be fired. Once in a blue moon you might take a decision on that is controversial and you will cut the Board out because for whatever legal or political reason, the Board CAN'T make that decision. Even then, when you did their unvoted bidding, you have to be ready to be canned in order for them to protect their position.

So the bottom is like this - if you take my 90 foot ladder truck 20 miles out of town to spray water on another town's downtown structure fire, and you didn't call me, you are going to get your assed chewed on because the board expects that. The board expects that because the voters expect that. The fact that you save the other town's business district is nice. The Board will call you into close session and chew your ass out. Then they will go out in public and call you a fine fellow who made a good command decision. But you exceeded your authority. As long as it turns out okay, you are okay.

If Warren made this decision unilaterally either he is really stupid, or there are unplayed cards not showing and something is being covered. I usually vote that people are not dumb, but are making decisions based on unseen factors.

I know from speaking with folks from NC at trainings and conferences things were screwed up there but I didn't know it was that bad. With you claiming to be an advisor it starts to make sense.

Never in my career did we have to notify anyone above the rank of Fire Chief prior to responding to a request for assistance. In fact, when a request was received via our communications center it was approved at the level of the Battalion Chief over the region that the requested resources would be pulled from, and in my experience we never turned down a request for assistance. The BC would approve the request and respond along with whatever resources were requested to act as a liaison between our troops and the agency having jurisdiction.

In most cases it was well after the deployed resources returned home before anyone above the Chief of Department knew they were gone, and then it was because it was in a weekly update sent by every department head to the administrator and then from the administrator to the elected council. We deployed numerous times a month to assist neighboring jurisdictions, numerous times a year to assist other jurisdictions within the state of SC, and several times a year to assist jurisdictions in other states. I personally have been on numerous deployments to assist with wildfires and hurricane response in Florida as both a team member or team leader, and was scheduled on the next rotation to Louisiana to help with Katrina when my Captain injured his back and they didn't want to strip my Engine of both senior personnel. Probably 20-25 in-state deployments for major commercial fires, wildfires, hazmat, and natural disaster response, and probably close to a hundred fire, wreck, and hazmat responses into a neighboring jurisdiction. It would be a lot more of them but for the fact that I spent most of my career assigned to stations in the interior of our jurisdiction so I missed out on a lot of fire and wreck responses that we did. Most of those I have was from working overtime at an outlying station or towards the end of my career I moved out there to try and slow down from a place where I was averaging anywhere from 12-16 calls in a 24 hour shift to one where 12 calls was an extremely busy tour.

Good luck hiring an effective Fire Chief if you are going to micromanage to the point of having to approve responses, and good luck getting assistance from other departments if you are going to delay sending them help until you track down some bureaucrat to get it approved. Luckily we had administrators and council members who trusted their people to do their jobs and stayed out of their way. Something, BTW, is another sign of a great leader.

(08-25-2020 04:52 PM)GTFletch Wrote:  Although rumors are 6 BIG10 schools may play despite the BIG10 Commish...

I call those rumors and nothing else. If 6 Big 10 schools really wanted to play and Ohio State was one of them, the Big Ten wouldn't have canceled the season in the first place and if Ohio State and five other schools decide to play, depending on who the schools are, the other Big Ten schools will quickly change their mind unless their governors intervene because they won't want to be left behind. If I'm Illinois (who everyone on CSNBBS believes is on the "cancel" side), I'd want a piece of the pie if the big guns are playing.

(08-25-2020 05:42 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 03:05 PM)Statefan Wrote:  In the past I used to supervise Fire and Police Chiefs. In most of the country they are not answerable to a board of directors in the sense that JR is talking about and they make tactical decisions in the field not strategic decisions regarding budgets, elections, or accountability to the public. In North Carolina for example it is the City Manager that is responsible to the Board for the decision of the Chiefs. When you are answerable to the Board, you damn well better be able to count.

It is a rare occasion that CEO/City Manager can act directly without the Boards tacit approval, let alone their legally voted approval. If you do, you have to be ready to be fired. Once in a blue moon you might take a decision on that is controversial and you will cut the Board out because for whatever legal or political reason, the Board CAN'T make that decision. Even then, when you did their unvoted bidding, you have to be ready to be canned in order for them to protect their position.

So the bottom is like this - if you take my 90 foot ladder truck 20 miles out of town to spray water on another town's downtown structure fire, and you didn't call me, you are going to get your assed chewed on because the board expects that. The board expects that because the voters expect that. The fact that you save the other town's business district is nice. The Board will call you into close session and chew your ass out. Then they will go out in public and call you a fine fellow who made a good command decision. But you exceeded your authority. As long as it turns out okay, you are okay.

If Warren made this decision unilaterally either he is really stupid, or there are unplayed cards not showing and something is being covered. I usually vote that people are not dumb, but are making decisions based on unseen factors.

I know from speaking with folks from NC at trainings and conferences things were screwed up there but I didn't know it was that bad. With you claiming to be an advisor it starts to make sense.

Never in my career did we have to notify anyone above the rank of Fire Chief prior to responding to a request for assistance. In fact, when a request was received via our communications center it was approved at the level of the Battalion Chief over the region that the requested resources would be pulled from, and in my experience we never turned down a request for assistance. The BC would approve the request and respond along with whatever resources were requested to act as a liaison between our troops and the agency having jurisdiction.

In most cases it was well after the deployed resources returned home before anyone above the Chief of Department knew they were gone, and then it was because it was in a weekly update sent by every department head to the administrator and then from the administrator to the elected council. We deployed numerous times a month to assist neighboring jurisdictions, numerous times a year to assist other jurisdictions within the state of SC, and several times a year to assist jurisdictions in other states. I personally have been on numerous deployments to assist with wildfires and hurricane response in Florida as both a team member or team leader, and was scheduled on the next rotation to Louisiana to help with Katrina when my Captain injured his back and they didn't want to strip my Engine of both senior personnel. Probably 20-25 in-state deployments for major commercial fires, wildfires, hazmat, and natural disaster response, and probably close to a hundred fire, wreck, and hazmat responses into a neighboring jurisdiction. It would be a lot more of them but for the fact that I spent most of my career assigned to stations in the interior of our jurisdiction so I missed out on a lot of fire and wreck responses that we did. Most of those I have was from working overtime at an outlying station or towards the end of my career I moved out there to try and slow down from a place where I was averaging anywhere from 12-16 calls in a 24 hour shift to one where 12 calls was an extremely busy tour.

Good luck hiring an effective Fire Chief if you are going to micromanage to the point of having to approve responses, and good luck getting assistance from other departments if you are going to delay sending them help until you track down some bureaucrat to get it approved. Luckily we had administrators and council members who trusted their people to do their jobs and stayed out of their way. Something, BTW, is another sign of a great leader.

I understand the department heads run the show in a weak mayor/administrator towns and counties. In City Manager run cities and counties the City Manager runs the show and **** cans the numb-nuts and yahoo department heads as he sees fit. Take my $910,000 Pierce, 40 minutes out of my City Limits, leaving over a dozen 6 and 7 story buildings plus heavy industry without the big ladder, and you wont do it a second time without notifying me.

You make the assumption the call to me is for my permission, no the call to me is because I am the *** **** boss and I take the heat if something goes wrong, not **** heads down the line. That way when the newspapers, tv, and the board call at 4:30 AM I can answer their questions.

I had to fire a couple of chiefs that didn't want to keep their boss in the loop.

And finally there is a difference between mutual aid and singular stupidity. Common sense draws that line not a map or a policy. Department heads don't make policy, they carry out policy. The City Manager is there to bend that policy while keeping the Board off the hook.

(08-25-2020 01:04 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 12:11 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(08-23-2020 05:28 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Bunch of idiot ADs who are trying to over rule the schools' presidents.

Illinois AD Josh Whitman - Juris Doctor Illinois School of Law

Indiana AD Fred Glass - law degree Indiana School of Law

Iowa AD Gary Barta - BS Communications and Journalism North Dakota St

Maryland AD Damon Evans - M.Ed University of Georgia

Michigan AD Warde Manuel - MBA University of Michigan

Michigan St AD Bill Beekman - MBA Northwestern University, Juris Doctor Wayne State University

Minnesota AD Mark Coyle - M.Ed Drake University, Masters in Sports Administration Florida State University

Nebraska AD Bill Moos - BA History Washington State University

Northwestern AD Jim Phillips - Ph.D Educational Administration University of Tennessee

Ohio State AD Gene Smith - BA Business Administration University of Notre Dame

Penn State AD Sandy Barbour - MS Sports Management University of Massachusetts, MBA Northwestern University

Purdue AD Mike Bobinski - BA Business Amdinistration University of Notre Dame

Rutgers AD Pat Hobbs - Juris Doctor University of North Carolina, LL.M New York University

Wisconsin AD Barry Alvarez - Masters in something University of Nebraska



These are the people being called "idiots" by someone who struggles to create a post on a message board without grammatical errors that would give a sixth grader a headache.

I don't see the title President in front of their name. They have no say so in the matter. They should be ignore.

Going off the same standard, so should you apparently.

(08-25-2020 05:38 PM)cubucks Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 04:52 PM)GTFletch Wrote:  

(08-23-2020 09:14 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-23-2020 08:56 PM)GTFletch Wrote:  August 5th Big Ten players follow Pac-12's lead in pushing for safety ahead of 2020 college football season

Link
https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...ll-season/

August 11th Big Ten & Pac 12 cancels all fall sports over coronavirus concerns

Link
https://www.latimes.com/sports/ucla/stor...s-concerns

#WeareUnited will be united on the Couch this season...The movement backfired!

The other conference to "unionize" was the MAC. So 3 of the 4 FBS conferences that cancelled.

The MAC canx was due to losing 21 $$ Games... The MAC cannot afford FBS level without those games and canx as soon as the BIG announced Conf games only!

Your point is probably true with the MWC as some MWC schools are in the Cali state and are tied to the P12... so they probably canx with some back channel union junk...who knows for sure..

However the PAC12 & BIG10 players thought they were really smart with the #WEAREUNITED movement and demands, but all that did was have the BIG10/P12 Commish and Presidents take the ball out of the AD hand and ensure those players can be united on the couch this year watching the BIG12, SEC, ACC...

Although rumors are 6 BIG10 schools may play despite the BIG10 Commish...

Yeah, not all BIG schools were on board with the Big 10 United stance. I do feel the Big10 United stance was reasonable compared to the PAC's demands.

Quote:The Buckeyes athletes wrote the letter in response to the Big Ten United group. That group, which represents more than 1,000 conference athletes, put out a statement asking for more stringent safety and prevention protocols for COVID-19, more oversight and transparency with the guidelines and testing, and player assurances and medical and scholarship protection.

The response from the Ohio State athletes said they appreciate the Big Ten United group's intentions to protect players and voice concerns, but that it does not represent the efforts and actions at their school.

"We believe our institution is providing the proper structure and organization for safety," the letter said. "Here at Ohio State, we #SetTheStandard for what college athletics should look like amid COVID-19."

https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...-look-like

The players demands would take more money on the testing and all that for COVID-19. You can tell by the response from Ohio State that they would vote no for football. So, you could see why 12 of the schools' leaderships said no football. All we are hearing is the big mouth AD at Nebraska trying to cause problems in the Big 10. If I remember right? Not everybody was on board of having Nebraska in the conference. If Nebraska contnue to cause problems? I could see 12-1 to boot Nebraska from the conference. They are not AAU anyways.

(08-25-2020 06:56 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 05:38 PM)cubucks Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 04:52 PM)GTFletch Wrote:  

(08-23-2020 09:14 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-23-2020 08:56 PM)GTFletch Wrote:  August 5th Big Ten players follow Pac-12's lead in pushing for safety ahead of 2020 college football season

Link
https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...ll-season/

August 11th Big Ten & Pac 12 cancels all fall sports over coronavirus concerns

Link
https://www.latimes.com/sports/ucla/stor...s-concerns

#WeareUnited will be united on the Couch this season...The movement backfired!

The other conference to "unionize" was the MAC. So 3 of the 4 FBS conferences that cancelled.

The MAC canx was due to losing 21 $$ Games... The MAC cannot afford FBS level without those games and canx as soon as the BIG announced Conf games only!

Your point is probably true with the MWC as some MWC schools are in the Cali state and are tied to the P12... so they probably canx with some back channel union junk...who knows for sure..

However the PAC12 & BIG10 players thought they were really smart with the #WEAREUNITED movement and demands, but all that did was have the BIG10/P12 Commish and Presidents take the ball out of the AD hand and ensure those players can be united on the couch this year watching the BIG12, SEC, ACC...

Although rumors are 6 BIG10 schools may play despite the BIG10 Commish...

Yeah, not all BIG schools were on board with the Big 10 United stance. I do feel the Big10 United stance was reasonable compared to the PAC's demands.

Quote:The Buckeyes athletes wrote the letter in response to the Big Ten United group. That group, which represents more than 1,000 conference athletes, put out a statement asking for more stringent safety and prevention protocols for COVID-19, more oversight and transparency with the guidelines and testing, and player assurances and medical and scholarship protection.

The response from the Ohio State athletes said they appreciate the Big Ten United group's intentions to protect players and voice concerns, but that it does not represent the efforts and actions at their school.

"We believe our institution is providing the proper structure and organization for safety," the letter said. "Here at Ohio State, we #SetTheStandard for what college athletics should look like amid COVID-19."

https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...-look-like

The players demands would take more money on the testing and all that for COVID-19. You can tell by the response from Ohio State that they would vote no for football. So, you could see why 12 of the schools' leaderships said no football. All we are hearing is the big mouth AD at Nebraska trying to cause problems in the Big 10. If I remember right? Not everybody was on board of having Nebraska in the conference. If Nebraska contnue to cause problems? I could see 12-1 to boot Nebraska from the conference. They are not AAU anyways.

Speechless.

(08-25-2020 06:25 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 05:42 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 03:05 PM)Statefan Wrote:  In the past I used to supervise Fire and Police Chiefs. In most of the country they are not answerable to a board of directors in the sense that JR is talking about and they make tactical decisions in the field not strategic decisions regarding budgets, elections, or accountability to the public. In North Carolina for example it is the City Manager that is responsible to the Board for the decision of the Chiefs. When you are answerable to the Board, you damn well better be able to count.

It is a rare occasion that CEO/City Manager can act directly without the Boards tacit approval, let alone their legally voted approval. If you do, you have to be ready to be fired. Once in a blue moon you might take a decision on that is controversial and you will cut the Board out because for whatever legal or political reason, the Board CAN'T make that decision. Even then, when you did their unvoted bidding, you have to be ready to be canned in order for them to protect their position.

So the bottom is like this - if you take my 90 foot ladder truck 20 miles out of town to spray water on another town's downtown structure fire, and you didn't call me, you are going to get your assed chewed on because the board expects that. The board expects that because the voters expect that. The fact that you save the other town's business district is nice. The Board will call you into close session and chew your ass out. Then they will go out in public and call you a fine fellow who made a good command decision. But you exceeded your authority. As long as it turns out okay, you are okay.

If Warren made this decision unilaterally either he is really stupid, or there are unplayed cards not showing and something is being covered. I usually vote that people are not dumb, but are making decisions based on unseen factors.

I know from speaking with folks from NC at trainings and conferences things were screwed up there but I didn't know it was that bad. With you claiming to be an advisor it starts to make sense.

Never in my career did we have to notify anyone above the rank of Fire Chief prior to responding to a request for assistance. In fact, when a request was received via our communications center it was approved at the level of the Battalion Chief over the region that the requested resources would be pulled from, and in my experience we never turned down a request for assistance. The BC would approve the request and respond along with whatever resources were requested to act as a liaison between our troops and the agency having jurisdiction.

In most cases it was well after the deployed resources returned home before anyone above the Chief of Department knew they were gone, and then it was because it was in a weekly update sent by every department head to the administrator and then from the administrator to the elected council. We deployed numerous times a month to assist neighboring jurisdictions, numerous times a year to assist other jurisdictions within the state of SC, and several times a year to assist jurisdictions in other states. I personally have been on numerous deployments to assist with wildfires and hurricane response in Florida as both a team member or team leader, and was scheduled on the next rotation to Louisiana to help with Katrina when my Captain injured his back and they didn't want to strip my Engine of both senior personnel. Probably 20-25 in-state deployments for major commercial fires, wildfires, hazmat, and natural disaster response, and probably close to a hundred fire, wreck, and hazmat responses into a neighboring jurisdiction. It would be a lot more of them but for the fact that I spent most of my career assigned to stations in the interior of our jurisdiction so I missed out on a lot of fire and wreck responses that we did. Most of those I have was from working overtime at an outlying station or towards the end of my career I moved out there to try and slow down from a place where I was averaging anywhere from 12-16 calls in a 24 hour shift to one where 12 calls was an extremely busy tour.

Good luck hiring an effective Fire Chief if you are going to micromanage to the point of having to approve responses, and good luck getting assistance from other departments if you are going to delay sending them help until you track down some bureaucrat to get it approved. Luckily we had administrators and council members who trusted their people to do their jobs and stayed out of their way. Something, BTW, is another sign of a great leader.

I understand the department heads run the show in a weak mayor/administrator towns and counties. In City Manager run cities and counties the City Manager runs the show and **** cans the numb-nuts and yahoo department heads as he sees fit. Take my $910,000 Pierce, 40 minutes out of my City Limits, leaving over a dozen 6 and 7 story buildings plus heavy industry without the big ladder, and you wont do it a second time without notifying me.

You make the assumption the call to me is for my permission, no the call to me is because I am the *** **** boss and I take the heat if something goes wrong, not **** heads down the line. That way when the newspapers, tv, and the board call at 4:30 AM I can answer their questions.

I had to fire a couple of chiefs that didn't want to keep their boss in the loop.

And finally there is a difference between mutual aid and singular stupidity. Common sense draws that line not a map or a policy. Department heads don't make policy, they carry out policy. The City Manager is there to bend that policy while keeping the Board off the hook.

There are no "mayors" in South Carolina counties. There is a non-elected county administrator and an elected county council. In all but the smallest of counties the council does not manage the day to day operations of the county, the administrator does. In our county the elected county council does not get involved in personnel matters, that is the responsibility of the county administrator.

In our situation the administrator did not get involved in day to day operations of any portion of the government as that was the responsibility of the department heads.

And the only thing you've ever fired was whatever bowl you use to come up with the convoluted conspiracy theories or realignment possibilities you share.

If David’s registering a prediction of a Nebraska heave-ho from the Big Ten, this could be a gamechanger in realignment.

(08-25-2020 07:41 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 06:25 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 05:42 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 03:05 PM)Statefan Wrote:  In the past I used to supervise Fire and Police Chiefs. In most of the country they are not answerable to a board of directors in the sense that JR is talking about and they make tactical decisions in the field not strategic decisions regarding budgets, elections, or accountability to the public. In North Carolina for example it is the City Manager that is responsible to the Board for the decision of the Chiefs. When you are answerable to the Board, you damn well better be able to count.

It is a rare occasion that CEO/City Manager can act directly without the Boards tacit approval, let alone their legally voted approval. If you do, you have to be ready to be fired. Once in a blue moon you might take a decision on that is controversial and you will cut the Board out because for whatever legal or political reason, the Board CAN'T make that decision. Even then, when you did their unvoted bidding, you have to be ready to be canned in order for them to protect their position.

So the bottom is like this - if you take my 90 foot ladder truck 20 miles out of town to spray water on another town's downtown structure fire, and you didn't call me, you are going to get your assed chewed on because the board expects that. The board expects that because the voters expect that. The fact that you save the other town's business district is nice. The Board will call you into close session and chew your ass out. Then they will go out in public and call you a fine fellow who made a good command decision. But you exceeded your authority. As long as it turns out okay, you are okay.

If Warren made this decision unilaterally either he is really stupid, or there are unplayed cards not showing and something is being covered. I usually vote that people are not dumb, but are making decisions based on unseen factors.

I know from speaking with folks from NC at trainings and conferences things were screwed up there but I didn't know it was that bad. With you claiming to be an advisor it starts to make sense.

Never in my career did we have to notify anyone above the rank of Fire Chief prior to responding to a request for assistance. In fact, when a request was received via our communications center it was approved at the level of the Battalion Chief over the region that the requested resources would be pulled from, and in my experience we never turned down a request for assistance. The BC would approve the request and respond along with whatever resources were requested to act as a liaison between our troops and the agency having jurisdiction.

In most cases it was well after the deployed resources returned home before anyone above the Chief of Department knew they were gone, and then it was because it was in a weekly update sent by every department head to the administrator and then from the administrator to the elected council. We deployed numerous times a month to assist neighboring jurisdictions, numerous times a year to assist other jurisdictions within the state of SC, and several times a year to assist jurisdictions in other states. I personally have been on numerous deployments to assist with wildfires and hurricane response in Florida as both a team member or team leader, and was scheduled on the next rotation to Louisiana to help with Katrina when my Captain injured his back and they didn't want to strip my Engine of both senior personnel. Probably 20-25 in-state deployments for major commercial fires, wildfires, hazmat, and natural disaster response, and probably close to a hundred fire, wreck, and hazmat responses into a neighboring jurisdiction. It would be a lot more of them but for the fact that I spent most of my career assigned to stations in the interior of our jurisdiction so I missed out on a lot of fire and wreck responses that we did. Most of those I have was from working overtime at an outlying station or towards the end of my career I moved out there to try and slow down from a place where I was averaging anywhere from 12-16 calls in a 24 hour shift to one where 12 calls was an extremely busy tour.

Good luck hiring an effective Fire Chief if you are going to micromanage to the point of having to approve responses, and good luck getting assistance from other departments if you are going to delay sending them help until you track down some bureaucrat to get it approved. Luckily we had administrators and council members who trusted their people to do their jobs and stayed out of their way. Something, BTW, is another sign of a great leader.

I understand the department heads run the show in a weak mayor/administrator towns and counties. In City Manager run cities and counties the City Manager runs the show and **** cans the numb-nuts and yahoo department heads as he sees fit. Take my $910,000 Pierce, 40 minutes out of my City Limits, leaving over a dozen 6 and 7 story buildings plus heavy industry without the big ladder, and you wont do it a second time without notifying me.

You make the assumption the call to me is for my permission, no the call to me is because I am the *** **** boss and I take the heat if something goes wrong, not **** heads down the line. That way when the newspapers, tv, and the board call at 4:30 AM I can answer their questions.

I had to fire a couple of chiefs that didn't want to keep their boss in the loop.

And finally there is a difference between mutual aid and singular stupidity. Common sense draws that line not a map or a policy. Department heads don't make policy, they carry out policy. The City Manager is there to bend that policy while keeping the Board off the hook.

There are no "mayors" in South Carolina counties. There is a non-elected county administrator and an elected county council. In all but the smallest of counties the council does not manage the day to day operations of the county, the administrator does. In our county the elected county council does not get involved in personnel matters, that is the responsibility of the county administrator.

In our situation the administrator did not get involved in day to day operations of any portion of the government as that was the responsibility of the department heads.

And the only thing you've ever fired was whatever bowl you use to come up with the convoluted conspiracy theories or realignment possibilities you share.

I am quite aware of how SC counties are governed. It's obvious you have never worked in an urban or suburban city or county. Your experience in rural Newberry County is substantially different from what you would have experienced in a more urban area. And in NC we don't have Rural County Fire Boards, we have individual rural fire departments that contract with the Counties. That's probably why you don't understand the gravity of taking a large apparatus out of a city that has multi story buildings and real industry. You don't have any of that in Newberry.

But just for fun we ought to call the Chiefs in Spartanburg and find out if they are going to wait to tell the City Manager that they took a million dollar fire truck all the way to Gaffney or wait for him to blindsided by it from the media or public. I suspect they might operate a bit differently than Mayberry.

(08-25-2020 08:26 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 07:41 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 06:25 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 05:42 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(08-25-2020 03:05 PM)Statefan Wrote:  In the past I used to supervise Fire and Police Chiefs. In most of the country they are not answerable to a board of directors in the sense that JR is talking about and they make tactical decisions in the field not strategic decisions regarding budgets, elections, or accountability to the public. In North Carolina for example it is the City Manager that is responsible to the Board for the decision of the Chiefs. When you are answerable to the Board, you damn well better be able to count.

It is a rare occasion that CEO/City Manager can act directly without the Boards tacit approval, let alone their legally voted approval. If you do, you have to be ready to be fired. Once in a blue moon you might take a decision on that is controversial and you will cut the Board out because for whatever legal or political reason, the Board CAN'T make that decision. Even then, when you did their unvoted bidding, you have to be ready to be canned in order for them to protect their position.

So the bottom is like this - if you take my 90 foot ladder truck 20 miles out of town to spray water on another town's downtown structure fire, and you didn't call me, you are going to get your assed chewed on because the board expects that. The board expects that because the voters expect that. The fact that you save the other town's business district is nice. The Board will call you into close session and chew your ass out. Then they will go out in public and call you a fine fellow who made a good command decision. But you exceeded your authority. As long as it turns out okay, you are okay.

If Warren made this decision unilaterally either he is really stupid, or there are unplayed cards not showing and something is being covered. I usually vote that people are not dumb, but are making decisions based on unseen factors.

I know from speaking with folks from NC at trainings and conferences things were screwed up there but I didn't know it was that bad. With you claiming to be an advisor it starts to make sense.

Never in my career did we have to notify anyone above the rank of Fire Chief prior to responding to a request for assistance. In fact, when a request was received via our communications center it was approved at the level of the Battalion Chief over the region that the requested resources would be pulled from, and in my experience we never turned down a request for assistance. The BC would approve the request and respond along with whatever resources were requested to act as a liaison between our troops and the agency having jurisdiction.

In most cases it was well after the deployed resources returned home before anyone above the Chief of Department knew they were gone, and then it was because it was in a weekly update sent by every department head to the administrator and then from the administrator to the elected council. We deployed numerous times a month to assist neighboring jurisdictions, numerous times a year to assist other jurisdictions within the state of SC, and several times a year to assist jurisdictions in other states. I personally have been on numerous deployments to assist with wildfires and hurricane response in Florida as both a team member or team leader, and was scheduled on the next rotation to Louisiana to help with Katrina when my Captain injured his back and they didn't want to strip my Engine of both senior personnel. Probably 20-25 in-state deployments for major commercial fires, wildfires, hazmat, and natural disaster response, and probably close to a hundred fire, wreck, and hazmat responses into a neighboring jurisdiction. It would be a lot more of them but for the fact that I spent most of my career assigned to stations in the interior of our jurisdiction so I missed out on a lot of fire and wreck responses that we did. Most of those I have was from working overtime at an outlying station or towards the end of my career I moved out there to try and slow down from a place where I was averaging anywhere from 12-16 calls in a 24 hour shift to one where 12 calls was an extremely busy tour.

Good luck hiring an effective Fire Chief if you are going to micromanage to the point of having to approve responses, and good luck getting assistance from other departments if you are going to delay sending them help until you track down some bureaucrat to get it approved. Luckily we had administrators and council members who trusted their people to do their jobs and stayed out of their way. Something, BTW, is another sign of a great leader.

I understand the department heads run the show in a weak mayor/administrator towns and counties. In City Manager run cities and counties the City Manager runs the show and **** cans the numb-nuts and yahoo department heads as he sees fit. Take my $910,000 Pierce, 40 minutes out of my City Limits, leaving over a dozen 6 and 7 story buildings plus heavy industry without the big ladder, and you wont do it a second time without notifying me.

You make the assumption the call to me is for my permission, no the call to me is because I am the *** **** boss and I take the heat if something goes wrong, not **** heads down the line. That way when the newspapers, tv, and the board call at 4:30 AM I can answer their questions.

I had to fire a couple of chiefs that didn't want to keep their boss in the loop.

And finally there is a difference between mutual aid and singular stupidity. Common sense draws that line not a map or a policy. Department heads don't make policy, they carry out policy. The City Manager is there to bend that policy while keeping the Board off the hook.

There are no "mayors" in South Carolina counties. There is a non-elected county administrator and an elected county council. In all but the smallest of counties the council does not manage the day to day operations of the county, the administrator does. In our county the elected county council does not get involved in personnel matters, that is the responsibility of the county administrator.

In our situation the administrator did not get involved in day to day operations of any portion of the government as that was the responsibility of the department heads.

And the only thing you've ever fired was whatever bowl you use to come up with the convoluted conspiracy theories or realignment possibilities you share.

I am quite aware of how SC counties are governed. It's obvious you have never worked in an urban or suburban city or county. Your experience in rural Newberry County is substantially different from what you would have experienced in a more urban area. And in NC we don't have Rural County Fire Boards, we have individual rural fire departments that contract with the Counties. That's probably why you don't understand the gravity of taking a large apparatus out of a city that has multi story buildings and real industry. You don't have any of that in Newberry.

Just because I went to Newberry College doesn't mean I live or worked in Newberry County. The only ties to Newberry I have are my degree and my start in the fire service and rescue squad when I was in college. I spent the overwhelming majority of my career in an urban area complete with not one but two government funded housing projects and an industrial park in my first due. The department I worked for had a couple hundred multi-story buildings and multiple aerial apparatus to protect them. There is absolutely nothing you can repeat what you've read via a Google search about the fire service that I haven't experienced with the exception of fighting an actual aircraft fire. I only did that in training once.

And thanks for reminding me what was really so screwed up about the NC fire service. Thousands of little individual duchys with absolutely no uniting force. No wonder my friend who works for Horry County talks about how they hate responding over the state line.

Oh and BTW Newberry FD has had an aerial apparatus for over 20 years.

Not one, but TWO housing projects. Wow

(08-25-2020 09:26 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Not one, but TWO housing projects. Wow

That was just in our first due. We were second and third due at many more.



You should do a little more Google searching before you try to sound informed. Gaffney wouldn't need Spartanburg to send a ladder truck because they have one of their own and can get others from departments much closer like Blacksburg FD, two from Converse Area FD, Boiling Springs FD, etc.