(08-04-2020 07:03 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(08-03-2020 09:28 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-03-2020 08:37 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  While I know this board trends very conservative, I'm still somewhat surprised that the general opinion here seems to be "f*ck the students; just shut up and play football."

For anyone who had to pay their way through college, a free full ride sounds like a hell of a deal. The same goes for those who grew up poor. A college education from a great school can be a pathway to a lifetime of financial security and stability and yet for these ungrateful little turds that’s not enough. It’s like chasing after a dead great aunt’s cash but tossing the Renoir painting above her couch in the dumpster.

For those of us who played sports in high school (maybe there are some here who played collegiately ?) we played because we loved the game. There was no expectation of quid pro quo or compensation. The thought that kids fortunate enough to play football at the level are crying oppression seems insulting to the fans who support them.

I grew up pretty poor. My Dad, grandfather, uncles, cousins were all coal miners.

I had to work my way first through undergrad and then law school.

The only resource or cash I had when I began law school was a $5,000 Guaranteed Student Loan. I went to LSU Law School from Pennsylvania because it had cheap law school tuition in 1983 due to the oil boom. ($2,300/yr. for out of state, as I recall. That left about $2,700 for books, rent, food, etc...).

I could not afford the tuition at most law schools, so Baton Rouge it was, sight unseen.

I lived pretty rough that first year of law school (not allowed to work the first year) until I could get two jobs, one as a law clerk for a local lawyer and the other opening and locking the law school in the morning and night for minimum wage.

I had to extend my student loan payoff and took almost 20 years to pay that sucker off.

That said, I am usually going to favor the players over the school just like I usually favor the worker over management/ownership.

(I do not trend very conservative)

These kids are the ones playing for our entertainment, the ones getting ACL tears and other injuries for our amusement, the modern day gladiators.

Athletic Directors, coaches, assistant coaches, trainers, support staff, etc..all get paychecks from college football, some of them very large ones.

The only guys who don't get paid are the kids. Don't give me the scholarship bull****. End all athletic scholarships then try to field a team for nothing. See what you get.

Scholarships are not some wonderful, benevolent, charitable endowment bestowed by a charitable school. It is the bare requirement of the school to field a team.

Are some of the Pac 12 player demands from left field ? Sure, but in a time when millions are being shelled out by schools for stadiums, locker rooms, Jumbotrons, etc, I say to the players "get as much as you can, that opportunity will be gone in four years."

Put some of that money in the players' hands.

^^^^
This
Said it perfectly Terry...

(08-04-2020 07:03 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Scholarships are not some wonderful, benevolent, charitable endowment bestowed by a charitable school. It is the bare requirement of the school to field a team.

Are some of the Pac 12 player demands from left field ? Sure, but in a time when millions are being shelled out by schools for stadiums, locker rooms, Jumbotrons, etc, I say to the players "get as much as you can, that opportunity will be gone in four years."

Put some of that money in the players' hands.

We're in the era of Full Cost of Attendance. It's not just the scholarship. It's room, meals, book allowance, it is pretty comprehensive. You can look at the USA Today finance reports and much of the Power 5 they are spending well into the 8 figure son scholarships.

That comes down to at least $30k+ per student per year. It's quite literally like being a trust fund baby. And it's all tax free. The idea that they're getting a pittance for playing is nonsense.

(08-04-2020 06:41 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 07:03 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Scholarships are not some wonderful, benevolent, charitable endowment bestowed by a charitable school. It is the bare requirement of the school to field a team.

Are some of the Pac 12 player demands from left field ? Sure, but in a time when millions are being shelled out by schools for stadiums, locker rooms, Jumbotrons, etc, I say to the players "get as much as you can, that opportunity will be gone in four years."

Put some of that money in the players' hands.

We're in the era of Full Cost of Attendance. It's not just the scholarship. It's room, meals, book allowance, it is pretty comprehensive. You can look at the USA Today finance reports and much of the Power 5 they are spending well into the 8 figure son scholarships.

That comes down to at least $30k+ per student per year. It's quite literally like being a trust fund baby. And it's all tax free. The idea that they're getting a pittance for playing is nonsense.

They "make" $30 k, the head coach makes north of $4 million.

What does the Athletic Director make? The assistant coaches? The SID?

I can go on. It is a relative pittance.

(08-04-2020 06:49 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 06:41 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 07:03 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Scholarships are not some wonderful, benevolent, charitable endowment bestowed by a charitable school. It is the bare requirement of the school to field a team.

Are some of the Pac 12 player demands from left field ? Sure, but in a time when millions are being shelled out by schools for stadiums, locker rooms, Jumbotrons, etc, I say to the players "get as much as you can, that opportunity will be gone in four years."

Put some of that money in the players' hands.

We're in the era of Full Cost of Attendance. It's not just the scholarship. It's room, meals, book allowance, it is pretty comprehensive. You can look at the USA Today finance reports and much of the Power 5 they are spending well into the 8 figure son scholarships.

That comes down to at least $30k+ per student per year. It's quite literally like being a trust fund baby. And it's all tax free. The idea that they're getting a pittance for playing is nonsense.

They "make" $30 k, the head coach makes north of $4 million.

What does the Athletic Director make? The assistant coaches? The SID?

I can go on. It is a relative pittance.

So what? It's an entry level job.
With education and experience the candidate should be able to advance commensurate with their ability, networking skills, and of course luck (knowing the right people and being at the right place at the right time).
The problem is the attitude where some believe they should be able to skip the orientation and learning development process and move directly into the executive offices and be paid executive salaries.

I lean toward having college athletics as an amateur status situation.... but the reality is we (the consumers of college fb and mbb) have been just fine with the increased demands of football and basketball players time and energy. The rules in recent years have been put in place to control that increase but still the players have very little time of their own to pursue the normal college life. If they are truly to be considered amateurs, they should have much, much more free time to work part time if necessary, like many other students do. They should have time to participate in college life like all other students do. So to me it is just not a cut and dried situation. If the amateur status that I prefer were to be seriously considered, then a lot of the training and conditioning would have to be curtailed and severely.

(08-03-2020 11:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Most of these players don't realize that their "fair market value" is not any more than the value of the scholarship they have. That's true even at elite P5 programs.

So they don't have nearly as much leverage as they seem to think.

For real.

When I was a kid all we did was play football and basketball outside. These guys get to play a game and get a free education.

Only in America would something like this become an issue.

(08-03-2020 08:37 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  While I know this board trends very conservative, I'm still somewhat surprised that the general opinion here seems to be "f*ck the students; just shut up and play football."

I disagree. (I'm black fyi).

I think that that if they feel that they are being treated unfairly they should just stop playing. No one is forcing them to play football or go to school. All of these demands could easily be met if they opted to go to a semi-pro league where they were employees of the teams.

We are seeing the result of decades of pretending like these guys are students. All so we can have the enjoyment of seeing someone tall, fast, or skilled play a sport. There are plenty of actual students who attend these schools that would happily stop paying student loans in exchange for playing a sport.

Because they are actually going to school to get an education. Rather than using the school as a platform to become a professional athlete.

I’d like to point out that there are a lot of professions that require unpaid internships before being admitted into the profession, so football is not alone.

Look at doctors: they have to PAY to get to participate in their unpaid internships. The same goes for teachers.

(08-05-2020 05:03 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’d like to point out that there are a lot of professions that require unpaid internships before being admitted into the profession, so football is not alone.

Look at doctors: they have to PAY to get to participate in their unpaid internships. The same goes for teachers.

Doctors are paid as interns. Less than minimum wage back in the day, but they are paid. However, they aren't paid as med students where they do clinical work the last 2 years.

(08-05-2020 04:57 PM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  

(08-03-2020 08:37 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  While I know this board trends very conservative, I'm still somewhat surprised that the general opinion here seems to be "f*ck the students; just shut up and play football."

I disagree. (I'm black fyi).

I think that that if they feel that they are being treated unfairly they should just stop playing. No one is forcing them to play football or go to school. All of these demands could easily be met if they opted to go to a semi-pro league where they were employees of the teams.

We are seeing the result of decades of pretending like these guys are students. All so we can have the enjoyment of seeing someone tall, fast, or skilled play a sport. There are plenty of actual students who attend these schools that would happily stop paying student loans in exchange for playing a sport.

Because they are actually going to school to get an education. Rather than using the school as a platform to become a professional athlete.

Great points. The vast majority of college footballs players aren’t going to get drafted and will never play professionally again after they take their last collegiate snap.

Playing college sports in exchange for a free education is a pretty nice deal in my mind. It’s not the universities fault if players aren’t using those free educations to make something of themselves.

For the superstars that do have pro potential, if you want to get paid to play football from ages 18-21 find a semi-pro league. Again, not the NCAA’s fault there aren’t glamorous, highly paid opportunities for football players in that age range because the NFL isn’t willing to risk millions on players straight out of high school.

(08-05-2020 04:49 PM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  

(08-03-2020 11:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Most of these players don't realize that their "fair market value" is not any more than the value of the scholarship they have. That's true even at elite P5 programs.

So they don't have nearly as much leverage as they seem to think.

For real.

When I was a kid all we did was play football and basketball outside. These guys get to play a game and get a free education.

Only in America would something like this become an issue.

Only in entitled 21st century America would something like this become an issue.

My father was enlisted military and my family had no money. I financed my undergraduate and graduate educations independently with a combination of academic scholarships, on-campus jobs, summer jobs and loans. I worked in the school dining hall scraping garbage off plates and mopping floors. I sold shoes at KMart. I was a short-order cook on a ferryboat and a warehouse worker. I was a sandblaster and painter. That was 40 years ago and there was nothing special about me. Tens of thousands of college students all over the country were scratching and clawing in similar ways to make ends meet so they could earn that all-important degree.

The contemporary college athlete's commitment to spend 20 hours a week practicing and playing a game in exchange for free tuition, books, housing, meals, medical care and pocket money doesn't sound like a bad deal by comparison.

Having said that, I think there should be an entry level league for pro football to give talented kids an alternative to attending school on an athletic scholarship. If they aren't serious about getting a degree they shouldn't have to go through the motions of being a student just because they have no other way to get paid for honing their skills.

(08-04-2020 06:41 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 07:03 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Scholarships are not some wonderful, benevolent, charitable endowment bestowed by a charitable school. It is the bare requirement of the school to field a team.

Are some of the Pac 12 player demands from left field ? Sure, but in a time when millions are being shelled out by schools for stadiums, locker rooms, Jumbotrons, etc, I say to the players "get as much as you can, that opportunity will be gone in four years."

Put some of that money in the players' hands.

We're in the era of Full Cost of Attendance. It's not just the scholarship. It's room, meals, book allowance, it is pretty comprehensive. You can look at the USA Today finance reports and much of the Power 5 they are spending well into the 8 figure son scholarships.

That comes down to at least $30k+ per student per year. It's quite literally like being a trust fund baby. And it's all tax free. The idea that they're getting a pittance for playing is nonsense.

Actually only the academic portion is tax free. The room & board & COA is taxable to the athletes.

For the "the players are oppressed" crowd, do you people really think players opting out aren't going to be going to parties on campus and will be taking day-to-day precautions when they go out?

My suggestion for players who want to opt out...if you're too afraid of the virus to be doing team activities with people who are going to be monitored closely you don't have any business being on campus. For those guys they need to be doing remote learning back and their folk's house. That will cut down on a lot of player's opting out.

hooweee, some of you people sound like you watch documentaries about strikes in the mines just to root for the Pinkertons.

(08-04-2020 06:49 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 06:41 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 07:03 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Scholarships are not some wonderful, benevolent, charitable endowment bestowed by a charitable school. It is the bare requirement of the school to field a team.

Are some of the Pac 12 player demands from left field ? Sure, but in a time when millions are being shelled out by schools for stadiums, locker rooms, Jumbotrons, etc, I say to the players "get as much as you can, that opportunity will be gone in four years."

Put some of that money in the players' hands.

We're in the era of Full Cost of Attendance. It's not just the scholarship. It's room, meals, book allowance, it is pretty comprehensive. You can look at the USA Today finance reports and much of the Power 5 they are spending well into the 8 figure son scholarships.

That comes down to at least $30k+ per student per year. It's quite literally like being a trust fund baby. And it's all tax free. The idea that they're getting a pittance for playing is nonsense.

They "make" $30 k, the head coach makes north of $4 million.

What does the Athletic Director make? The assistant coaches? The SID?

I can go on. It is a relative pittance.

There are 130 FBS head coaches--and only a handful are good enough to hang on to an HC job for more than 4 years. The demand for a good coach far outstrips the supply. There are about 1.1 million high school football players. There are about 11,000 FBS scholarships available and maybe half that many FCS football scholarship opportunities. In other words, 1.1 million players competing for less than 20K scholarship slots. The competition is so keen that kids line up for the opportunity to play for free as walk-ons---just hoping they might get a chance to play---and perhaps even a scholarship down the line. Given those demand and supply realities---its obvious why a great coach is worth more than the players he coaches---a good coach is hard to replace---finding a new player is easy.

(08-06-2020 11:24 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  finding a new player is easy.

Sure, and people will pay to watch sub-par performance, because players are a dime a dozen. It’s that talent, however...

I just wish people would stop equating the deal as the kids getting a free education. This assumes the players have the same luxuries someone has on campus with academic scholarships, and they don’t. Same institutional commitment, and they don’t. Same ability to access all courses and services, which they don’t/can’t.

It used to be like that, and is at other non-FBS levels. It used to be that recruitment meant commitment, too, so that pact between student athlete and program had meaning to it. D1 FBS is practically a factory now.

It also used to be that schools had more awareness of the risk in taking student athletes. That schools had higher standards and could walk away from those they sensed would not succeed at the institution, even with other perks and safety nets. Now, schools let coaches just gobble talent and let their programs do the enforcement of “fit.” And it almost feels like the school/program leverages the high cost as control mechanism for those who come from absolute poverty. And the schools don’t own that part of itself.

(08-07-2020 06:31 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(08-06-2020 11:24 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  finding a new player is easy.

Sure, and people will pay to watch sub-par performance, because players are a dime a dozen. It’s that talent, however...

I just wish people would stop equating the deal as the kids getting a free education. This assumes the players have the same luxuries someone has on campus with academic scholarships, and they don’t. Same institutional commitment, and they don’t. Same ability to access all courses and services, which they don’t/can’t.

It used to be like that, and is at other non-FBS levels. It used to be that recruitment meant commitment, too, so that pact between student athlete and program had meaning to it. D1 FBS is practically a factory now.

It also used to be that schools had more awareness of the risk in taking student athletes. That schools had higher standards and could walk away from those they sensed would not succeed at the institution, even with other perks and safety nets. Now, schools let coaches just gobble talent and let their programs do the enforcement of “fit.” And it almost feels like the school/program leverages the high cost as control mechanism for those who come from absolute poverty. And the schools don’t own that part of itself.

ummm....the kids on academic scholarships all have access to this sort of luxury?

https://www.businessinsider.com/louisian...ity-2019-8

their own pool...a movie theater....better food....entertainment center....their own studying center.


yep. this isn't a luxury at all. EVERYONE at LSU gets this.

(08-04-2020 06:49 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 06:41 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 07:03 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Scholarships are not some wonderful, benevolent, charitable endowment bestowed by a charitable school. It is the bare requirement of the school to field a team.

Are some of the Pac 12 player demands from left field ? Sure, but in a time when millions are being shelled out by schools for stadiums, locker rooms, Jumbotrons, etc, I say to the players "get as much as you can, that opportunity will be gone in four years."

Put some of that money in the players' hands.

We're in the era of Full Cost of Attendance. It's not just the scholarship. It's room, meals, book allowance, it is pretty comprehensive. You can look at the USA Today finance reports and much of the Power 5 they are spending well into the 8 figure son scholarships.

That comes down to at least $30k+ per student per year. It's quite literally like being a trust fund baby. And it's all tax free. The idea that they're getting a pittance for playing is nonsense.

They "make" $30 k, the head coach makes north of $4 million.

What does the Athletic Director make? The assistant coaches? The SID?

I can go on. It is a relative pittance.

How many coaches make $4 million and how many years did they work for a tenth of that before they got up to that level? And how many of the coaches they started with still don't make a lot?

How many d2, d3, naia, and juco coaches won't make that much in a lifetime?

What role do those making these demands play in the life of the institutions? A pittance is the answer. They are there for a brief moment in time, many contribute next to nothing monetarily to the billion dollar machines in which they are tiny cogs. These spoiled brats didn't build the stadiums they play in, they didn't build the academic halls or hire the researchers that the schools are ALSO known for, they don't pay for their travel or buy their own equipment. Most of what they receive was paid for by someone else, so they should be thankful they get their pittance at all. It may be a pittance compared to the overall picture, but it may be more than most of these clowns deserve.

(08-07-2020 06:51 AM)Duke Dawg Wrote:  

(08-07-2020 06:31 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(08-06-2020 11:24 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  finding a new player is easy.

Sure, and people will pay to watch sub-par performance, because players are a dime a dozen. It’s that talent, however...

I just wish people would stop equating the deal as the kids getting a free education. This assumes the players have the same luxuries someone has on campus with academic scholarships, and they don’t. Same institutional commitment, and they don’t. Same ability to access all courses and services, which they don’t/can’t.

It used to be like that, and is at other non-FBS levels. It used to be that recruitment meant commitment, too, so that pact between student athlete and program had meaning to it. D1 FBS is practically a factory now.

It also used to be that schools had more awareness of the risk in taking student athletes. That schools had higher standards and could walk away from those they sensed would not succeed at the institution, even with other perks and safety nets. Now, schools let coaches just gobble talent and let their programs do the enforcement of “fit.” And it almost feels like the school/program leverages the high cost as control mechanism for those who come from absolute poverty. And the schools don’t own that part of itself.

ummm....the kids on academic scholarships all have access to this sort of luxury?

https://www.businessinsider.com/louisian...ity-2019-8

their own pool...a movie theater....better food....entertainment center....their own studying center.


yep. this isn't a luxury at all. EVERYONE at LSU gets this.

So, their spot is safe from signing day? If on an academic scholarship, are you applying for your spot at the school every semester of every year, even if you make the academic grades just because the next class comes along?

I’m well aware of the study centers. I mean, with the regimine these guys now have to put in, classes are delievered in a very unique way. Regular students don’t necessarily have this kind of stuff, but then, they’re actually students?

(08-07-2020 06:31 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(08-06-2020 11:24 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  finding a new player is easy.

Sure, and people will pay to watch sub-par performance, because players are a dime a dozen. It’s that talent, however...

I just wish people would stop equating the deal as the kids getting a free education. This assumes the players have the same luxuries someone has on campus with academic scholarships, and they don’t. Same institutional commitment, and they don’t. Same ability to access all courses and services, which they don’t/can’t.

It used to be like that, and is at other non-FBS levels. It used to be that recruitment meant commitment, too, so that pact between student athlete and program had meaning to it. D1 FBS is practically a factory now.

It also used to be that schools had more awareness of the risk in taking student athletes. That schools had higher standards and could walk away from those they sensed would not succeed at the institution, even with other perks and safety nets. Now, schools let coaches just gobble talent and let their programs do the enforcement of “fit.” And it almost feels like the school/program leverages the high cost as control mechanism for those who come from absolute poverty. And the schools don’t own that part of itself.

What are you talking about? Are you travelling backwards in time?

Schools would take 100 freshmen and drop most of them. That's why we have scholarship limits. Dexter Manley? Literal illiterates were recruited. Players have it much better than they did in the past. And the tutoring resources are phenomenal. Coordinators, counselors, tutors by course, note takers,...