ridiculous

You guys sound like overseers in regards to the athletes...glad they are taking a stand and others are taking notice..From the Wall Street Journal...Lol


Do not make the mistake of assuming that this movement is limited to West Coasters of the Pac-12. Players around the country are noticing what’s going on. Trevor Lawrence, the Clemson quarterback expected to be the No. 1 pick in next year’s NFL draft, has already shown support for elements of the effort on Twitter.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/want-colleg...07NAkhowds

If these guys don't think a basically free college education at a PAC 12 school is worth playing 48 to 54 college football games then hand them their transcripts, show them the exit, and tell them good luck at their next college. If the PAC 12 leadership had any ballz they'd do that right now.

While I know this board trends very conservative, I'm still somewhat surprised that the general opinion here seems to be "f*ck the students; just shut up and play football."

(08-03-2020 08:37 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  While I know this board trends very conservative, I'm still somewhat surprised that the general opinion here seems to be "f*ck the students; just shut up and play football."

It's a little more than that ...

It's "can't you see what you're getting?" Jesus ... you know how long it took me to pay off my student loans from college???? Freakin forever. And I didn't get to go to Cal Berkely or Stanford. I'd probably still be paying off those loans.

These kids are looking a gift horse in the mouth, and projectile vomiting all over it.

THAT is why you're seeing the reaction you are seeing.

(08-03-2020 08:37 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  While I know this board trends very conservative, I'm still somewhat surprised that the general opinion here seems to be "f*ck the students; just shut up and play football."

For anyone who had to pay their way through college, a free full ride sounds like a hell of a deal. The same goes for those who grew up poor. A college education from a great school can be a pathway to a lifetime of financial security and stability and yet for these ungrateful little turds that’s not enough. It’s like chasing after a dead great aunt’s cash but tossing the Renoir painting above her couch in the dumpster.

For those of us who played sports in high school (maybe there are some here who played collegiately ?) we played because we loved the game. There was no expectation of quid pro quo or compensation. The thought that kids fortunate enough to play football at the level are crying oppression seems insulting to the fans who support them.

^^^^
What they said. Four subsections of wish list items with the threat of boycotting the season if they don't get what they want, and, submitting this "document" to the conference this close to the season starting is bush league tactics. IMO they took some bad advice. Most folks are reasonable and know when something is over-the-top. Be careful! It will get to the point soon that the silent majority of fans and alumni will start to say the heck with this and find other ways to spend their money and time.

Send them packing.

As usual, a school gives them an opportunity for a free education, and suddenly the school is the enemy. I say send them packing back to wherever their pampered azz came from. Those scholarships are yearly contracts. By refusing to play they are failing to carry out their portion of the contract.

There are plenty of high school athletes that would be appreciative of an opportunity to play college football for a free education.

Shut up and play or get out....simple as that.

(08-03-2020 09:28 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-03-2020 08:37 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  While I know this board trends very conservative, I'm still somewhat surprised that the general opinion here seems to be "f*ck the students; just shut up and play football."

For anyone who had to pay their way through college, a free full ride sounds like a hell of a deal. The same goes for those who grew up poor. A college education from a great school can be a pathway to a lifetime of financial security and stability and yet for these ungrateful little turds that’s not enough. It’s like chasing after a dead great aunt’s cash but tossing the Renoir painting above her couch in the dumpster.

For those of us who played sports in high school (maybe there are some here who played collegiately ?) we played because we loved the game. There was no expectation of quid pro quo or compensation. The thought that kids fortunate enough to play football at the level are crying oppression seems insulting to the fans who support them.

I grew up pretty poor. My Dad, grandfather, uncles, cousins were all coal miners.

I had to work my way first through undergrad and then law school.

The only resource or cash I had when I began law school was a $5,000 Guaranteed Student Loan. I went to LSU Law School from Pennsylvania because it had cheap law school tuition in 1983 due to the oil boom. ($2,300/yr. for out of state, as I recall. That left about $2,700 for books, rent, food, etc...).

I could not afford the tuition at most law schools, so Baton Rouge it was, sight unseen.

I lived pretty rough that first year of law school (not allowed to work the first year) until I could get two jobs, one as a law clerk for a local lawyer and the other opening and locking the law school in the morning and night for minimum wage.

I had to extend my student loan payoff and took almost 20 years to pay that sucker off.

That said, I am usually going to favor the players over the school just like I usually favor the worker over management/ownership.

(I do not trend very conservative)

These kids are the ones playing for our entertainment, the ones getting ACL tears and other injuries for our amusement, the modern day gladiators.

Athletic Directors, coaches, assistant coaches, trainers, support staff, etc..all get paychecks from college football, some of them very large ones.

The only guys who don't get paid are the kids. Don't give me the scholarship bull****. End all athletic scholarships then try to field a team for nothing. See what you get.

Scholarships are not some wonderful, benevolent, charitable endowment bestowed by a charitable school. It is the bare requirement of the school to field a team.

Are some of the Pac 12 player demands from left field ? Sure, but in a time when millions are being shelled out by schools for stadiums, locker rooms, Jumbotrons, etc, I say to the players "get as much as you can, that opportunity will be gone in four years."

Put some of that money in the players' hands.

(08-04-2020 07:03 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(08-03-2020 09:28 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-03-2020 08:37 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  While I know this board trends very conservative, I'm still somewhat surprised that the general opinion here seems to be "f*ck the students; just shut up and play football."

For anyone who had to pay their way through college, a free full ride sounds like a hell of a deal. The same goes for those who grew up poor. A college education from a great school can be a pathway to a lifetime of financial security and stability and yet for these ungrateful little turds that’s not enough. It’s like chasing after a dead great aunt’s cash but tossing the Renoir painting above her couch in the dumpster.

For those of us who played sports in high school (maybe there are some here who played collegiately ?) we played because we loved the game. There was no expectation of quid pro quo or compensation. The thought that kids fortunate enough to play football at the level are crying oppression seems insulting to the fans who support them.

I grew up pretty poor. My Dad, grandfather, uncles, cousins were all coal miners.

I had to work my way first through undergrad and then law school.

The only resource or cash I had when I began law school was a $5,000 Guaranteed Student Loan. I had to go to LSU Law School from Pennsylvania because it had cheap law school tuition in 1983 due to the oil boom.

I stuffed myself with Podnuh's BBQ buffet and ate entire $.19 boxes of mac and cheese for dinner my first year of law school.

I had to extend my student loan payoff and took almost 20 years to pay that sucker off.

That said, I am usually going to favor the players over the school just like I usually favor the worker over management/ownership.

These kids are the ones playing for our entertainment, the ones getting ACL tears and other injuries for our amusement.

I say "Get as much of that pie as you can, guys. Good luck." There are millions being spent each year on bigger locker rooms, Jumbotrons, etc...

Put some of that money in the players' hands.

If they're playing for your amusement (or mine), they're in it for the wrong reasons. That's what a professional athlete does. But these are not professionals. Professionals are not required to enroll in introductory philosophy courses.

This does not mean I don't enjoy it. I appreciate the players' effort and skill, just like I appreciate the effort and skill that my 3 year old shows when he hits a baseball. That doesn't mean I'm about to pay my 3 year old for getting a hit.

These are not pros, and if they think they are then I'm no longer interested in them because they're nowhere near as good as actual pros.

Universities are already uneasy about sponsoring sports. They do not want pro sports of any kind on campus. If players start sharing revenue or getting salaries, many university presidents will say, "to heck with them" and kick them off campus. And they'll have the full support of the faculty.

(08-04-2020 07:03 AM)TerryD Wrote:  I had to extend my student loan payoff and took almost 20 years to pay that sucker off.

+++++

Put some of that money in the players' hands.

Took me 17 years to pay off my small ($7500) student loan, 1987 - 2004. Paid over $18,000 nominal dollars to do so, think it had a 9% interest rate. Money well spent, though.

As for the players, more money is what the NIL stuff is about, and it's coming. But most of these demands are silly and do not reflect market reality.

(08-03-2020 08:37 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  While I know this board trends very conservative, I'm still somewhat surprised that the general opinion here seems to be "f*ck the students; just shut up and play football."

How is it saying "f*ck the students" when they are receiving a college education of their choice in return for playing football?

If the student-athletes don't like the deal, no one is holding a gun to their head making them play, there is no indentured slavery here, all student-athletes are free to walk if they think it's not a fair deal.

Everyone wants more for their work effort, but the services the student-athletes are providing to the university are not worth the new demands they are making under #WeAreUnited.

(08-03-2020 08:37 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  While I know this board trends very conservative, I'm still somewhat surprised that the general opinion here seems to be "f*ck the students; just shut up and play football."

Thats not the view you see here. The view is more along the lines of----lets not "let the patients run the asylum".

Here is where I am at. The vast majority of FBS programs lose money---only a handful make money. So, there is no huge bucket of gold plated profit for the players to share in. The costs of running college athletic department outstrips its revenue. These athletic programs only stay solvent because of forced student fees, university subsidy transfers, and donations from committed alums. Lets also remember that schools are non-profit entities in the education business---they arent a pro football league. They only have teams that operate at a loss because it has some marginal value as marketing exposure and because it represents a relatively popular student amenity. UConn lost 40 million last year on athletics. Most G5's are losing around 15-20 million. Using that average, as a group, the 65 G5 schools are losing well over a billion dollars collectively. My guess is the P5 is losing money as group as well---but not nearly as much as the G5.

Furthermore, there is and has not been any significant demand for a semi-pro "NFL Lite" league in the US. World Football League and USFL were well funded efforts that failed in the 70's and 80's. Arena League football tried and failed. Then came the XFL in 2001---which played just one season before failing. In just the last 2 years, 2 more "NFL Lite" leagues have started and collapsed without finishing a single season, the AAF and XFL (the XFL now has failed a second time). There just isnt much demand for pro football players below the NFL level. In fact, some really low level "for profit" leagues exist where the players actually pay money to play. Thats how those very low level leagues remain profitable.

Since nobody seems to be able to make money paying for football players below the NFL level, that basically means that the economic value of a sub-NFL talent football player is at or near zero. Thus, the idea that the players are somehow being "ripped off" and "cheated" because they only receive a scholarship worth between $25K to $60K+ a year seems like complete BS to me. Show me where sub-NFL level pro football players are making more than $25-60K+ in a economically viable league and maybe you can say the players have a point. Barring that---then it seems $25-$60K+ is pretty reasonable compensation. In fact, if we say the average scholarship is worth $40K a year, then FBS college football players are already getting 442 million a year in compensation---not an unreasonable amount considering the entire FBS operation has been losing money as a group for decades and only survives because it fleeces the other regular paying students by charging big mandatory "athletic fees"---and even then, some more of the student tuition ends up subsidizing the athletic department in an annual transfer bail out.

If the current players dont like their compensation---go fill out an NFL application. I assure you, the line will be 100 deep with kids dying to play for the scholarship that player vacates. 100K screaming Aggies will still be there on Saturday to watch his replacement because college sports is about the name on the front of the jersey--not the name on the back. Hell, 20% or more of current college rosters are made up of walk-on players who get absolutely nothing. Those walk-on's are there simply because they love playing and enjoy the experience. Millions of high school football players also receive nothing and play simply because they think its fun.

As a person who had to work his way through school, Im just not of the belief the college athlete is being ripped off. I think a scholarship is darn valuable. Based on the economics of value of sub NFL-talent level football players, they are being very well compensated. Im even ok with the players making money off NIL, provided a way is found to keep it from simply devolving into a "pay for play" system funded by boosters.

(08-04-2020 11:11 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(08-03-2020 08:37 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  While I know this board trends very conservative, I'm still somewhat surprised that the general opinion here seems to be "f*ck the students; just shut up and play football."

Thats not the view you see here. The view is more along the lines of----lets not "let the patients run the asylum".

Here is where I am at. The vast majority of FBS programs lose money---only a handful make money. So, there is no huge bucket of gold plated profit for the players to share in.

That's correct. Basically, unless you are an NFL-level talent, which very few are even among elite P5 programs, the scholarship you are getting is your maximum worth to the school. You probably have no market value beyond that, not in the form of a wage, NIL, nothing.

We can think of exceptions - e.g., imagine a big time 5-star recruit, like Trevor Lawrence coming out of high school. If colleges were free to pay, there would probably be a bidding war of some kind to sign him. Some of these 4* and 5* star guys would get signing bonuses basically to induce them to come to your school and not Alabama, etc. But again these are not most guys even at the P5 level. For example, look at Wisconsin's recruiting class last year - this is an elite program, usually in the top 15, often in NY6 bowls, and their class consisted of four 4* guys and fifteen 3* guys. Only the 4*s would likely attract any signing bonus.

(08-04-2020 11:30 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 11:11 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(08-03-2020 08:37 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  While I know this board trends very conservative, I'm still somewhat surprised that the general opinion here seems to be "f*ck the students; just shut up and play football."

Thats not the view you see here. The view is more along the lines of----lets not "let the patients run the asylum".

Here is where I am at. The vast majority of FBS programs lose money---only a handful make money. So, there is no huge bucket of gold plated profit for the players to share in.

That's correct. Basically, unless you are an NFL-level talent, which very few are even among elite P5 programs, the scholarship you are getting is your maximum worth to the school. You probably have no market value beyond that, not in the form of a wage, NIL, nothing.

We can think of exceptions - e.g., imagine a big time 5-star recruit, like Trevor Lawrence coming out of high school. If colleges were free to pay, there would probably be a bidding war of some kind to sign him. Some of these 4* and 5* star guys would get signing bonuses basically to induce them to come to your school and not Alabama, etc.

And lets be honest---most of the kids leave college football for the NFL the moment they are confident they are viewed by pro teams as an NFL level talent. Where I think the NFL is missing out is there are NFL talents that just hate school and wash out of the college system. Watch "Last Chance U" and you realize this idea that the schools dont care if the players graduate isnt really the case. The reality is the schools offer athletes all sorts of help and provide motivation to do well in class. The problem is some kids just refuse to take the opportunity for a free education seriously. They either hate school or are just not willing to put out the effort. It's sad and hard to watch---but its also undeniable.

My point is, there is a group of talented kids that the NFL is missing out on that could only be groomed for NFL play by a pay-for-play type minor league run by the NFL.

These whiners need to take up their gripes with the NFL. It’s not the NCAA’s rule that you have to be 21 to be draft eligible.

It’s the NFL that’s wants to see at least 3 seasons of college play before they will entertain giving you a contract.

(08-04-2020 07:03 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(08-03-2020 09:28 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-03-2020 08:37 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  While I know this board trends very conservative, I'm still somewhat surprised that the general opinion here seems to be "f*ck the students; just shut up and play football."

For anyone who had to pay their way through college, a free full ride sounds like a hell of a deal. The same goes for those who grew up poor. A college education from a great school can be a pathway to a lifetime of financial security and stability and yet for these ungrateful little turds that’s not enough. It’s like chasing after a dead great aunt’s cash but tossing the Renoir painting above her couch in the dumpster.

For those of us who played sports in high school (maybe there are some here who played collegiately ?) we played because we loved the game. There was no expectation of quid pro quo or compensation. The thought that kids fortunate enough to play football at the level are crying oppression seems insulting to the fans who support them.

I grew up pretty poor. My Dad, grandfather, uncles, cousins were all coal miners.

I had to work my way first through undergrad and then law school.

The only resource or cash I had when I began law school was a $5,000 Guaranteed Student Loan. I went to LSU Law School from Pennsylvania because it had cheap law school tuition in 1983 due to the oil boom. ($2,300/yr. for out of state, as I recall. That left about $2,700 for books, rent, food, etc...).

I could not afford the tuition at most law schools, so Baton Rouge it was, sight unseen.

I lived pretty rough that first year of law school (not allowed to work the first year) until I could get two jobs, one as a law clerk for a local lawyer and the other opening and locking the law school in the morning and night for minimum wage.

I had to extend my student loan payoff and took almost 20 years to pay that sucker off.

That said, I am usually going to favor the players over the school just like I usually favor the worker over management/ownership.

(I do not trend very conservative)

These kids are the ones playing for our entertainment, the ones getting ACL tears and other injuries for our amusement, the modern day gladiators.

Athletic Directors, coaches, assistant coaches, trainers, support staff, etc..all get paychecks from college football, some of them very large ones.

The only guys who don't get paid are the kids. Don't give me the scholarship bull****. End all athletic scholarships then try to field a team for nothing. See what you get.

Scholarships are not some wonderful, benevolent, charitable endowment bestowed by a charitable school. It is the bare requirement of the school to field a team.

Are some of the Pac 12 player demands from left field ? Sure, but in a time when millions are being shelled out by schools for stadiums, locker rooms, Jumbotrons, etc, I say to the players "get as much as you can, that opportunity will be gone in four years."

Put some of that money in the players' hands.

Most of these players bitching are elite athletes that have likely been put on a pedestal all their life. Think about how many average NCAA athletes would love to get a free ride at a PAC 12 school and get to enjoy all that goes with it. (Facilities, tier 1 education, COA, fans, sunshine, playing on TV, access to world class Dr.s if they get injured, etc, etc, etc. Every single player on the Kent State/ Indiana State,/Eastern New Mexico, football team would transfer to Oregon State in a heart beat.

Why aren't these athletes using their voice to engage alumni to try and raise endowment scholarships for impoverished inner city youth or under represented minority groups at their or surrounding schools? Using their collective voice to try and better the world in a post Floyd America would be a lot more impactful then demanding cash. Frankly, the whole thing is disgusting and I hope these universities tell the players to pack their gear because their is a young man or young woman who would love to take their place.

(08-04-2020 11:38 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 11:30 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 11:11 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(08-03-2020 08:37 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  While I know this board trends very conservative, I'm still somewhat surprised that the general opinion here seems to be "f*ck the students; just shut up and play football."

Thats not the view you see here. The view is more along the lines of----lets not "let the patients run the asylum".

Here is where I am at. The vast majority of FBS programs lose money---only a handful make money. So, there is no huge bucket of gold plated profit for the players to share in.

That's correct. Basically, unless you are an NFL-level talent, which very few are even among elite P5 programs, the scholarship you are getting is your maximum worth to the school. You probably have no market value beyond that, not in the form of a wage, NIL, nothing.

We can think of exceptions - e.g., imagine a big time 5-star recruit, like Trevor Lawrence coming out of high school. If colleges were free to pay, there would probably be a bidding war of some kind to sign him. Some of these 4* and 5* star guys would get signing bonuses basically to induce them to come to your school and not Alabama, etc.

And lets be honest---most of the kids leave college football for the NFL the moment they are confident they are viewed by pro teams as an NFL level talent. Where I think the NFL is missing out is there are NFL talents that just hate school and wash out of the college system. Watch "Last Chance U" and you realize this idea that the schools dont care if the players graduate isnt really the case. The reality is the schools offer athletes all sorts of help and provide motivation to do well in class. The problem is some kids just refuse to take the opportunity for a free education seriously. They either hate school or are just not willing to put out the effort. It's sad and hard to watch---but its also undeniable.

My point is, there is a group of talented kids that the NFL is missing out on that could only be groomed for NFL play by a pay-for-play type minor league run by the NFL.

I agree. Maybe a Maurice Clarrett, a tremendous talent but seemingly not cut out for college life, would have thrived in an immediate farm-pay type situation.

(08-02-2020 10:48 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Demanding endowments fund sports.

If they make it into a room with important people, they’ll be laughed out like a cast of clowns. If you don’t know how endowments work, you don’t have the requisite intelligence level to be taken seriously.

Well most of these schools likely have very large athletic endowments separate from their academic endowment but still.....that's not how endowments work. Most are likely set aside to fund scholarships and can't just be plundered.

Other than that and the requirements that go against NCAA rules and the whole 50% of revenues thing......it seems pretty reasonable.

(08-04-2020 10:21 AM)The Cats Wrote:  

(08-03-2020 08:37 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  While I know this board trends very conservative, I'm still somewhat surprised that the general opinion here seems to be "f*ck the students; just shut up and play football."

How is it saying "f*ck the students" when they are receiving a college education of their choice in return for playing football?

If the student-athletes don't like the deal, no one is holding a gun to their head making them play, there is no indentured slavery here, all student-athletes are free to walk if they think it's not a fair deal.

Everyone wants more for their work effort, but the services the student-athletes are providing to the university are not worth the new demands they are making under #WeAreUnited.

Room & board and tuition is going to be $20,000 up for in state and $40,000 up for out of state. Coaching and access to facilities, the upgrade to the athlete training tables and the extensive tutoring adds tens of thousands per year. So they are getting more compensation than the average wage earner without a college education in the US. And more than many with. Compare to what teachers with 0-5 years experience make.