(08-01-2020 05:48 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(08-01-2020 04:34 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Well, the "why he left" was pretty much the whole point of the thread. It's not merely about teams that fell off after a good coach left, it's about teams that fell off after forcing out or firing a good coach. So i responded in those terms.

I stated as such. Officially he resigned. Many believe he was forced out behind the scenes which is typical for a long time, respected coach. What's the difference in terms of the thread? Consider...

Quote:As of Saturday morning, Dec. 14, Mack Brown was going to be the Texas football coach in 2014. It had not been announced, but the decision had been made. Brown held a breakfast for recruits who were in town on official visits, and new athletic director Steve Patterson dropped by the breakfast to visit with the prospects.

Afterward, Brown and Patterson spent hours discussing the future of the program, potential improvements in the athletic department and other aspects of their working relationship going forward.

About an hour after that meeting ended, Brown got a call from Patterson, according to a source with intimate knowledge of the situation. The tone was completely different from the upbeat meeting that had just occurred.

"I've got to come over [to the football offices]," Patterson said.

The source told Yahoo Sports that Patterson arrived at the football building with a jarring change of heart for Brown: You need to resign. That was the decision of University of Texas president Bill Powers, and Patterson was the apologetic messenger. The source said Powers, a longtime friend and supporter of the football coach, abruptly yanked the rug out from beneath Brown after supporting his continued tenure the previous two days.

Thus the 16-year Mack Brown Era at Texas was terminated not by the coach himself, but at the insistence of an embattled school president. Although the school's official release and every public statement has said Brown decided on his own to step down, he was pushed – after being told the decision was his.

Mack Forced Out

Then why did your first reply to me emphasize that you didn't really care much about the reason a coach left? As in:

"I understand your perspective but I was addressing more the impact after the coach left vs. the specific reasons why he left."

(08-02-2020 12:18 AM)Mav Wrote:  Pelini had to go. The team was getting blown out regularly under him and he was fostering a really poisonous culture for the program. He seemed to think it was the fans' and press's fault that they were letting Wisconsin rewrite their record books against them every year.

(08-01-2020 12:24 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  Ruffin McNeil was hard to wrap my head around

I’ll throw in Mangino at Kansas as well

Mangino was a complete piece of crap. He wasn't even the Bob Knight type where he was trying to pressure the kids into being better, he just abused the hell out of them. There's a reason he hasn't done anything but whine on Twitter since getting shown the door.

Regardless of his style, the point of this thread focuses on the impact after a particular coach is fired and KU had one of the worst decades in college football history after Mangino was let go.

Although most of these involve great coaches getting let go and the program then falling apart, I would put in a vote for USC not having the same foresight that LSU had to keep Ed Orgeron as head coach.

Of course you could argue there was no evidence USC had at the time that Orgeron was destined for greatness, but neither did LSU have any evidence and LSU still took a leap of faith that payed off.

(08-02-2020 12:28 PM)goofus Wrote:  Although most of these involve great coaches getting let go and the program then falling apart, I would put in a vote for USC not having the same foresight that LSU had to keep Ed Orgeron as head coach.

Of course you could argue there was no evidence USC had at the time that Orgeron was destined for greatness, but neither did LSU have any evidence and LSU still took a leap of faith that payed off.

Well, LSU got some good luck. Orgeron was on Miles's staff so was an easy choice to elevate to interim coach when they fired Miles during the season.

Second, LSU's first choice for permanent HC was Tom Herman, and that looked like a done deal until Texas stepped in at the last moment and whisked him away.

So LSU owes a big TY to the Horns for that.

(08-01-2020 06:40 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(08-01-2020 04:02 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Dave Wannstedt at Pitt was a head-scratcher then and now.

Dave Wannstedt went 15-6 in conference his last 3 years and got fired. He’s a good coach.

Yeah, I suspect there’s a lot more to this one that time will reveal. He really did bring that program around, but it seemed like he ruffled feathers or is it possible he did some horrid stuff?

On the basketball side, I’m a bit confused by how Jerry Dunn could lose his job at Penn State two years after getting the team to a Sweet Sixteen for the frist time in like 45 years, but the school seemed to keep Dechellis and even Chambers in there without any of the NCAA success. And while I know the trend for Dunn was downward and steep those last three years, from Sweet Sixteen to two 7-21 records, the rest of the work tended to be more even or just better either successor would have, but allowed to stay on (and don’t get me started on Ed). And given who was making decisions there at PSU at the time, yeah, I’ll go there, nothing would surprise me what’s under the surface.

(08-05-2020 06:51 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(08-01-2020 06:40 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(08-01-2020 04:02 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Dave Wannstedt at Pitt was a head-scratcher then and now.

Dave Wannstedt went 15-6 in conference his last 3 years and got fired. He’s a good coach.

Yeah, I suspect there’s a lot more to this one that time will reveal. He really did bring that program around, but it seemed like he ruffled feathers or is it possible he did some horrid stuff?

With Wannstedt and Pitt, you have to remember the context. DW was a high-profile hire tapped to return Pitt to its late 1970s - early 1980s glory days. And he didn't inherit an awful program. The three seasons before he arrived, Pitt went 9-4, 8-5, and 8-4.

So how did he do? During DW's first three seasons at Pitt, they went 5-6, 6-6, and 5-7. That's bad. Then they improved to 9-4 and 10-3, but then his final season they fell to 7-5. So really, when he "turned them around" in 2008 and 2009, it was a turnaround from his own bad coaching, not someone else's.

So that's an overall record of 42-31 over six seasons, and after the 7-5 downturn Pitt's decision to pull the plug was IMO very defensible.

(08-01-2020 11:32 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  https://247sports.com/LongFormArticle/Wo...49727966_1

Ralph Friedgen, Maryland
Mario Cristobal, FIU
Mike Leach, Texas Tech
Ruffin McNeill, East Carolina
[s]Bo Pelini[/a] Frank Solich, Nebraska
Jeff Jagodzinski, Boston College

Larry Coker, Miami
Phil Fulmer, Tennessee
Paul Pasqualoni, Syracuse
Glen Mason, Minnesota

FIFY. Pelini wasn't the guy to keep - Solich was.

(08-05-2020 08:03 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(08-01-2020 11:32 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  https://247sports.com/LongFormArticle/Wo...49727966_1

Ralph Friedgen, Maryland
Mario Cristobal, FIU
Mike Leach, Texas Tech
Ruffin McNeill, East Carolina
[s]Bo Pelini[/a] Frank Solich, Nebraska
Jeff Jagodzinski, Boston College

Larry Coker, Miami
Phil Fulmer, Tennessee
Paul Pasqualoni, Syracuse
Glen Mason, Minnesota

FIFY. Pelini wasn't the guy to keep - Solich was.

Nah ... UNL made the right call with Solich. He inherited TO's powerhouse and road its coattails for a handful of years, and then things headed south.

I think his long and mediocre career at Ohio has proven that he was not big-time P5 material.

I would add Jeff Bower of Southern Miss.

(08-01-2020 11:32 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  https://247sports.com/LongFormArticle/Wo...49727966_1

Ralph Friedgen, Maryland
Mario Cristobal, FIU
Mike Leach, Texas Tech
Ruffin McNeill, East Carolina
Bo Pelini, Nebraska
Jeff Jagodzinski, Boston College

Larry Coker, Miami
Phil Fulmer, Tennessee
Paul Pasqualoni, Syracuse
Glen Mason, Minnesota

(08-05-2020 08:16 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 08:03 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(08-01-2020 11:32 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  https://247sports.com/LongFormArticle/Wo...49727966_1

Ralph Friedgen, Maryland
Mario Cristobal, FIU
Mike Leach, Texas Tech
Ruffin McNeill, East Carolina
[s]Bo Pelini[/a] Frank Solich, Nebraska
Jeff Jagodzinski, Boston College

Larry Coker, Miami
Phil Fulmer, Tennessee
Paul Pasqualoni, Syracuse
Glen Mason, Minnesota

FIFY. Pelini wasn't the guy to keep - Solich was.

Nah ... UNL made the right call with Solich. He inherited TO's powerhouse and road its coattails for a handful of years, and then things headed south.

I think his long and mediocre career at Ohio has proven that he was not big-time P5 material.

He turned a crap program into a perennial conference championship contender and got them bowl wins where they didn't have any before. He hasn't won the big one (which is one of the reasons fans wanted him out at UNL), but he's exactly where he belongs.

Ohio '83-'04 (before Solich) - 2 winning seasons in 22 years
Ohio '05-'19 (with Solich) - 2 losing seasons in 15 years


Ohio football since '83:
4-7
4-6-1
2-9
1-10
1-10
4-6-1
1-9-1
1-9-1
2-8-1
1-10
4-7
0-11
2-8-1
6-6
8-3
5-6
5-6
7-4
1-10
4-8
2-10
4-7
[Solich]
4-7
9-5
6-6
4-8
9-5
8-5
10-4
9-4
7-6
6-6
8-5
8-6
9-4
9-4
7-6

(08-05-2020 10:45 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Ohio '83-'04 (before Solich) - 2 winning seasons in 22 years
Ohio '05-'19 (with Solich) - 2 losing seasons in 15 years

Ohio football since '83:
4-7
4-6-1
2-9
1-10
1-10
4-6-1
1-9-1
1-9-1
2-8-1
1-10
4-7
0-11
2-8-1
6-6
8-3
5-6
5-6
7-4
1-10
4-8
2-10
4-7
[Solich]
4-7
9-5
6-6
4-8
9-5
8-5
10-4
9-4
7-6
6-6
8-5
8-6
9-4
9-4
7-6

My thoughts exactly. Ohio averaged 3-8-1 before Solich, 8-5 since his arrival.
Nebraska hardly missed a beat after Osborne retired, and the credit should go in large part to Solich. At the time it felt like Nebraska wanted to "modernize" its football program - for the sake of being modern. Bad move, IMHO.

(08-05-2020 10:51 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 10:45 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Ohio '83-'04 (before Solich) - 2 winning seasons in 22 years
Ohio '05-'19 (with Solich) - 2 losing seasons in 15 years

Ohio football since '83:
4-7
4-6-1
2-9
1-10
1-10
4-6-1
1-9-1
1-9-1
2-8-1
1-10
4-7
0-11
2-8-1
6-6
8-3
5-6
5-6
7-4
1-10
4-8
2-10
4-7
[Solich]
4-7
9-5
6-6
4-8
9-5
8-5
10-4
9-4
7-6
6-6
8-5
8-6
9-4
9-4
7-6

My thoughts exactly. Ohio averaged 3-8-1 before Solich, 8-5 since his arrival.
Nebraska hardly missed a beat after Osborne retired, and the credit should go in large part to Solich. At the time it felt like Nebraska wanted to "modernize" its football program - for the sake of being modern. Bad move, IMHO.

Solich's record at Ohio is fine, for Ohio, but does it say he should have a P5 job? I don't think so.

And if he doesn't deserve a P5 job, he doesn't deserve Nebraska's job.

Let's face it: Solich and Coker were very similar, effective coattail-riders for 3-4 years, then you could see the program fading.

Steve Petersen has the distinction of being the AD that had two bad firings. Solich at Nebraska and Wannestedt at Pitt. Pitt went through 3 head coaches in 2 years after Wanny was let go. Pitt has had 4 head coaches since Wanny and Narduzzi has been here 5 years. Which is longer than the other 3 combined.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I think TN fired Fulmer too soon, but also, it wouldn't have been so awful if:
1) He was given the grace to resign on his own terms even it was a "firing."
2) Kiffin hadn't been the choice immediately after.

Depending on whose story you listen to you, TN could have had Gary Patterson instead of Kiffin. I think the story plays differently if it hadn't been Kiffin, who led to Dooley, who led to Jones (who was one game away from having TN in the Sugar Bowl a year before he was fired), to now Pruitt, who may have turned things around (?).

(08-05-2020 07:21 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 06:51 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(08-01-2020 06:40 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(08-01-2020 04:02 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Dave Wannstedt at Pitt was a head-scratcher then and now.

Dave Wannstedt went 15-6 in conference his last 3 years and got fired. He’s a good coach.

Yeah, I suspect there’s a lot more to this one that time will reveal. He really did bring that program around, but it seemed like he ruffled feathers or is it possible he did some horrid stuff?

With Wannstedt and Pitt, you have to remember the context. DW was a high-profile hire tapped to return Pitt to its late 1970s - early 1980s glory days. And he didn't inherit an awful program. The three seasons before he arrived, Pitt went 9-4, 8-5, and 8-4.

So how did he do? During DW's first three seasons at Pitt, they went 5-6, 6-6, and 5-7. That's bad. Then they improved to 9-4 and 10-3, but then his final season they fell to 7-5. So really, when he "turned them around" in 2008 and 2009, it was a turnaround from his own bad coaching, not someone else's.

So that's an overall record of 42-31 over six seasons, and after the 7-5 downturn Pitt's decision to pull the plug was IMO very defensible.

Wannstedt had a lot of talent coming in at the time he was fired -- and they all left when Pitt canned him. It was a head scratcher. It felt like Pitt had national championship expectations without wanting to make the commitment.

Additionally, Pitt couldn't compete with WVU and UL those first couple of years in Big East 2.0. The horses weren't there -- remember in the 2005 Backyard Brawl, he was left saying "We just have to run faster". He built them up to a point where 7-5 was a disappointment.

Then Pitt fired Wannstedt and they were mediocre for a few years after the firing. In hindsight it was a huge mistake.

Yeah, it’s hard not to look for something else when you fire a winner. It can’t be performance, because 7-5 is fine. Maybe not for years and years at the same place, but the trend was still generally upward.

(08-05-2020 11:04 AM)Shannon Panther Wrote:  Steve Petersen has the distinction of being the AD that had two bad firings. Solich at Nebraska and Wannestedt at Pitt. Pitt went through 3 head coaches in 2 years after Wanny was let go. Pitt has had 4 head coaches since Wanny and Narduzzi has been here 5 years. Which is longer than the other 3 combined.

Wanny was a mistake if you were happy with Pitt going 8-5 forever. Having grown up with college football in the 1970s, when Pitt was a real power, I can't imagine most Pitt fans have that mindset. The whole reason they hired DW was to return to those glory days. He had six years to shake out of that and couldn't. He never won the Big East, went 2-4 vs WV, and took the team to three minor bowls in six years.

Yes, when you fire an 8-5 coach, thing can get worse, and in Pitt's case they did. But nothing ventured, nothing gained.

The mistake wasn't in firing DW, it was in who they hired after.

I didn’t get the impression many were unhappy with DW, but Pedersen was and that was enough to persuade leadership to move on. And to base it on a season’s record, above .500, and with a respectable recruiting class coming in, sorry, quo, that’s pulling the plug too soon.

And is chronically 7-5 or 8-4 so terrible? I mean, isn’t this pretty much Ferentz at Iowa? That you can be successful enough that over time, should you choose to move on from someone who stalls out there (and that isn’t DW), you have infrastructure and kids to move it up and beyond? Because that didn’t happen at Pitt. Harris takes them to the BCS, and he gets pushed out. Program stalls. Wanny’s in, brings it up to a winner, gets canned. Program stalls.