(08-05-2020 08:15 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 04:59 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  [quote='RutgersGuy' pid='16931212' dateline='1596663159']
No, the 3 FB members didn't own the name anymore than the C7 did at the time. They just would have rather had the cash than the name because like you said it would be silly to try and pass the AAC off as the Big East.

That's why "divorce" is a pretty good analogy. Two entities were working out a division of the jointly owned property (name, MSG tournament, exit fees).

I think everyone agreed, quietly, that the name was more valuable TO the C7, and more valuable WITH the C7. So the football side took the cash.

EDIT: I thought it was in here somewhere, but I can't find it.

People like Stever20 who did the amateur forensic accounting on the Big East and American Athletic Conference publicly available tax statements make a pretty persuasive case that the C7 gave up not just the exit fees and Syracuse/Louisville credits, but the Georgetown/Villanova credits to the AAC, presumably to secure ownership of the name.

By the prenup, I'm 99% certain the AAC had no *claim* on the C7 credits, but negotiations are negotiations, and that's just how valuable the conference brand is/was for basketball, at least with the historic members.

Quote:

Quote:If im not mistaken that when the 8 year agreement was set up after the first raid they stated that the BBall side would keep the name and the FB side would come up with a new name.

I'm with you on your previous post and the first paragraph of this one, but that's the first I've heard of the idea that there was an agreement that the C7 would keep the name going back to 2003-2005ish.

Yeah, I don't remember any sources at the time to that effect. Aresco was beating his chest pretty loudly about how his group expected to keep the name, etc. The two sides were acting and speaking very much as if the conference assets were up in the air, subject to a negotiated division. Newspaper articles said the pre-nup used the phrase "equitably distribute the [financial] assets."

Quote:Side note: it's interesting that the withdrawing group, the C7, which consisted of more original/longtime members than the group that was left behind, did end up with the Big East name. In the case of the WAC/MW split, the withdrawing group, which also consisted of more original/longtime members than the left behind group, had to come up with a new name.

That's because the Big East split from the AAC was a planned conference mitosis, mostly agreed upon long in advance. The MWC split from the WAC was more of a "screw these guys, let's leave"

(08-05-2020 07:35 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  After the first raid when the conference went to 16 teams 8 FB and 8 BBall the agreement was that they would all stay together for the 5 or 6 years the NCAA rules stated that teams had to be together to keep their AQ bid to the NCAAs and then the two sides would split up. Then it turned out the BBall ended up being much better than anyone thought and they decided to stay together after that time period had passed. They were going to go their separate ways around the end of the decade.

Agreed.

I'm not sure if the prenup was still in effect at the time of the split. Technically the C7 left the Big East -- and the AAC still held the charter, terms, credits, etc. But everything is negotiable and comparing the split to a divorce is accurate.

The AAC is the successor to the Big East -- and the Big East is a new conference. Was the Big East able to take records, etc. with them? The history and the name probably wasn't valuable to the AAC since they were building around football.

The way I understood what went on was the conference bylaws were incredibly vague regarding whether or not Temple had a vote if a motion to disband was called to a vote.

If they did have a vote the motion would fail but if they did not the motion would pass.

Rather than go to war in the courts regarding Temple’s voting status Cincinnati, UConn, USF, and Temple opted to negotiate with the C7 rather than gamble that the courts would rule in their favor. The court’s decision would have been an all-or-nothing decision. They either win and keep everything or lose and the conference is disbanded and they would lose all of those assets.

They made the prudent decision to deal.

(08-05-2020 04:58 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I just caught something interesting that I never noticed before:

Penn St needed 6 of 8 votes to be yes—they got 5.

The No’s were Villanova, St John’s, and Georgetown.

Depending on if the by-laws required a 2/3rds or 3/4ths vote, had they voted BEFORE Villanova joined Penn St could have been admitted.

Villanova really is the swing vote that made the difference. I wonder how much effort was exerted by Gavitt to get them to change their minds.

Great. Villanova kept two Pennsylvania schools out of the Big East. If it weren't for the fact they won two national championships I wouldn't like them so much.

(08-06-2020 08:58 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 04:58 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I just caught something interesting that I never noticed before:

Penn St needed 6 of 8 votes to be yes—they got 5.

The No’s were Villanova, St John’s, and Georgetown.

Depending on if the by-laws required a 2/3rds or 3/4ths vote, had they voted BEFORE Villanova joined Penn St could have been admitted.

Villanova really is the swing vote that made the difference. I wonder how much effort was exerted by Gavitt to get them to change their minds.

Great. Villanova kept two Pennsylvania schools out of the Big East. If it weren't for the fact they won two national championships I wouldn't like them so much.

And the one PA school that Villanova let in their conference, Pitt, blocked their football team from joining.

Villanova needs to reevaluate how they treat their friends. LOL

(08-06-2020 09:07 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-06-2020 08:58 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 04:58 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I just caught something interesting that I never noticed before:

Penn St needed 6 of 8 votes to be yes—they got 5.

The No’s were Villanova, St John’s, and Georgetown.

Depending on if the by-laws required a 2/3rds or 3/4ths vote, had they voted BEFORE Villanova joined Penn St could have been admitted.

Villanova really is the swing vote that made the difference. I wonder how much effort was exerted by Gavitt to get them to change their minds.

Great. Villanova kept two Pennsylvania schools out of the Big East. If it weren't for the fact they won two national championships I wouldn't like them so much.

And the one PA school that Villanova let in their conference, Pitt, blocked their football team from joining.

Villanova needs to reevaluate how they treat their friends. LOL

I'm not sure how much Villanova actually wanted to move up to FBS. They dragged their feet coming up with a plan on moving up, and their attendance is pretty abysmal, even after winning the 2009 FCS national championship. Their alumni don't seem to care about football, just basketball.

(08-06-2020 08:29 AM)megadrone Wrote:  The AAC is the successor to the Big East -- and the Big East is a new conference. Was the Big East able to take records, etc. with them? The history and the name probably wasn't valuable to the AAC since they were building around football.

The AAC carried over the old Big East bylaws and football records, while keeping $100 million in exit fees and reserve funds (which a majority of which was given to UConn/Cincinnati/USF). The C7 took MSG, the Big East name/brand, $10 million and the basketball records.

However, what is interesting if you visit the AAC's website, under championships, no championships (in football or otherwise) are listed before the '13-'14 season. Even when you go to All-Time Champions, nothing is referenced from the Big East before 2013. In fact, even if you search the term BIG EAST in the search bar on the AAC website, you get zero results.

It very much appears that the AAC has disassociated itself, historically, from the connection to Big East Football entirely as well, and, rightfully so. I know that wasn't the case a few years ago (when they still listed Big East Champions as part of their past champions page). I'm guessing they wiped it after UConn's announced departure (since it really doesn't make sense to honor a league association where a majority of its members never played under).

(08-06-2020 08:29 AM)megadrone Wrote:  I'm not sure if the prenup was still in effect at the time of the split.

Then you weren't following events at the time. It absolutely was, and was a big topic of controversy and research (if frantic overcaffeinated googling counts as research) here.

Quote:Technically the C7 left the Big East -- and the AAC still held the charter, terms, credits, etc. But everything is negotiable and comparing the split to a divorce is accurate.

Everything is negotiable, but without the prenup, the C7 would have had no basis to negotiate anything. BATNA (best alternative to negotiated agreement) for the football schools would have been "LOL Nope, we get everything and y'all freeze in the dark, suckers." The pre-nup mandated an "equitable distribution of assets."

(I guess dissolving the conference might have been on the table, before the C7 announced intention to withdraw. The statement announcing the C7 split was VERY carefully worded to not use the word "withdraw")

Quote:The AAC is the successor to the Big East -- and the Big East is a new conference. Was the Big East able to take records, etc. with them? The history and the name probably wasn't valuable to the AAC since they were building around football.

Yes, the Big East got the website, legal title to the records etc. So by NCAA reckoning, Derrick Coleman is still the all-time Big East rebounding leader (Syracuse 1987-90), followed by Angel Delgado (Seton Hall 2015-18).

I'm concluding that the records, just like the trademarked logos etc count as Intellectual Property, and were negotiated.