Maybe the timing is off as Florida St and Miami hadn’t yet quite risen to prominence but what if South Carolina, GT, Florida St, and Miami had decided to start a conference together in the early 70s.

You obviously need more schools than that to be a conference but they would have had plenty of options to fill out their numbers:

VT, WVU, ECU, Cincinnati, Louisville, Memphis, Tulane, USM

Maybe there’s a chance the promise of an alternative league to the ACC allows South Carolina to lure Clemson into the fold.

Would those 4 core members be able to resist the SEC/ACC in the early 90s? Would this league still be around today?

What does the ACC’s future look like?

I'm sure they're all just kicking themselves for not doing what they could to end up in a conference with Tulane and USM. Oh well, hindsight is 2020 I reckon.

It was the Metro 7.

(07-03-2020 02:05 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  It was the Metro 7.

The Metro never sponsored football and Miami was never a member and GT had left before SC joined.

(07-03-2020 01:59 PM)TuckerGnat Wrote:  I'm sure they're all just kicking themselves for not doing what they could to end up in a conference with Tulane and USM. Oh well, hindsight is 2020 I reckon.

My thought process is, that if you started with that core 4 and we’re able to get Clemson too, who was supposed to leave the ACC in solidarity with SC but then didn’t, that puts the ACC at just

Maryland, UVA, +4 NC schools

At that point those 6 are on borrowed time and the Metro, or whatever we’re calling this new league probably could pitch and choose whoever they wanted.

USM and Tulane probably don’t end up in this conference.

(07-03-2020 02:20 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(07-03-2020 01:59 PM)TuckerGnat Wrote:  I'm sure they're all just kicking themselves for not doing what they could to end up in a conference with Tulane and USM. Oh well, hindsight is 2020 I reckon.

My thought process is, that if you started with that core 4 and we’re able to get Clemson too, who was supposed to leave the ACC in solidarity with SC but then didn’t, that puts the ACC at just

Maryland, UVA, +4 NC schools

At that point those 6 are on borrowed time and the Metro, or whatever we’re calling this new league probably could pitch and choose whoever they wanted.

USM and Tulane probably don’t end up in this conference.

As an ECU fan I endorse anything that promotes the Pirates to the detriment of the NC ACC schools.

There was an eight-year window between the time South Carolina left the ACC (1971) and Georgia Tech joined it (1979).

Georgia Tech was a charter member of the Metro when it was formed in 1975. South Carolina did not join the Metro until 1983. The Gamecocks had been trying to get back into the ACC.

Florida State joined the Metro in 1976. Miami was never in it.

In the mid-to-late 70's, Florida State became nationally relevant in football by playing multiple national powers (mostly on the road) and winning. Miami came of age in the early 80's and began winning national championships on the backs of local players.

In the 1980's and early 90's, most of the Metro schools were playing each other as independents. There was even an All-Southern Independent team (all-conference team). But, the schools were not aligned enough to form an entire all-sports conference. There were different priorities for each school. Plus, different schools had different ideas regarding revenue distribution. The relationships between Louisville, Memphis, Cincinnati, and the Metro/Great Midwest conferences have been discussed elsewhere on this board, especially regarding the founding of Conference USA.

So, the stars were never quite aligned for this second major Southern conference. Each school had different goals at various times in the 70's and 80's.

The ACC was able to add GT, FSU, and Miami, while SC made it into the SEC.

(07-03-2020 04:41 PM)johnintx Wrote:  There was an eight-year window between the time South Carolina left the ACC (1971) and Georgia Tech joined it (1979).

Georgia Tech was a charter member of the Metro when it was formed in 1975. South Carolina did not join the Metro until 1983. The Gamecocks had been trying to get back into the ACC.

Florida State joined the Metro in 1976. Miami was never in it.

In the mid-to-late 70's, Florida State became nationally relevant in football by playing multiple national powers (mostly on the road) and winning. Miami came of age in the early 80's and began winning national championships on the backs of local players.

In the 1980's and early 90's, most of the Metro schools were playing each other as independents. There was even an All-Southern Independent team (all-conference team). But, the schools were not aligned enough to form an entire all-sports conference. There were different priorities for each school. Plus, different schools had different ideas regarding revenue distribution. The relationships between Louisville, Memphis, Cincinnati, and the Metro/Great Midwest conferences have been discussed elsewhere on this board, especially regarding the founding of Conference USA.

So, the stars were never quite aligned for this second major Southern conference. Each school had different goals at various times in the 70's and 80's.

The ACC was able to add GT, FSU, and Miami, while SC made it into the SEC.

And FSU has to be regretting this decision when invited to the SEC and declined.

(07-03-2020 05:03 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  

(07-03-2020 04:41 PM)johnintx Wrote:  There was an eight-year window between the time South Carolina left the ACC (1971) and Georgia Tech joined it (1979).

Georgia Tech was a charter member of the Metro when it was formed in 1975. South Carolina did not join the Metro until 1983. The Gamecocks had been trying to get back into the ACC.

Florida State joined the Metro in 1976. Miami was never in it.

In the mid-to-late 70's, Florida State became nationally relevant in football by playing multiple national powers (mostly on the road) and winning. Miami came of age in the early 80's and began winning national championships on the backs of local players.

In the 1980's and early 90's, most of the Metro schools were playing each other as independents. There was even an All-Southern Independent team (all-conference team). But, the schools were not aligned enough to form an entire all-sports conference. There were different priorities for each school. Plus, different schools had different ideas regarding revenue distribution. The relationships between Louisville, Memphis, Cincinnati, and the Metro/Great Midwest conferences have been discussed elsewhere on this board, especially regarding the founding of Conference USA.

So, the stars were never quite aligned for this second major Southern conference. Each school had different goals at various times in the 70's and 80's.

The ACC was able to add GT, FSU, and Miami, while SC made it into the SEC.

And FSU has to be regretting this decision when invited to the SEC and declined.

(07-03-2020 02:11 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(07-03-2020 02:05 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  It was the Metro 7.

The Metro never sponsored football and Miami was never a member and GT had left before SC joined.

Yes, but the Metro could have been that conference that could have allied the outlying programs.

(07-03-2020 05:03 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  And FSU has to be regretting this decision when invited to the SEC and declined.

Short-term, it was a good decision. Bobby Bowden was on to something when he made the choice. FSU won their first 29 games as a member of the ACC. They went 10 years without losing a conference home game. FSU was a dominant program in that era, regardless, but they totally owned the ACC upon entry.

They would still have won championships in the SEC, but would have not have dominated it in the same way they dominated the ACC. FSU has won three national championships as members of the ACC. The number of NCs they would have won as members of the SEC is debatable.

There is no way that the powers that be in 1991 could have seen the amount of revenue generated by the SEC in the 2010s and 2020s. Hindsight is 20-20. But, I'm sure there are some FSU people that now wish they had chosen the SEC in 1991. SEC revenue could have softened the effects of their current instability.

(07-03-2020 07:39 PM)johnintx Wrote:  

(07-03-2020 05:03 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  And FSU has to be regretting this decision when invited to the SEC and declined.

Short-term, it was a good decision. Bobby Bowden was on to something when he made the choice. FSU won their first 29 games as a member of the ACC. They went 10 years without losing a conference home game. FSU was a dominant program in that era, regardless, but they totally owned the ACC upon entry.

They would still have won championships in the SEC, but would have not have dominated it in the same way they dominated the ACC. FSU has won three national championships as members of the ACC. The number of NCs they would have won as members of the SEC is debatable.

There is no way that the powers that be in 1991 could have seen the amount of revenue generated by the SEC in the 2010s and 2020s. Hindsight is 20-20. But, I'm sure there are some FSU people that now wish they had chosen the SEC in 1991. SEC revenue could have softened the effects of their current instability.

Hindsight given, Bowden still made the wrong decision. The SEC was a football conference compared to the ACC. FSU was a football powerhouse, not basketball.

The only way I could have seen it working is if they were able to lure schools away from the Southwest Conference, namely Texas and Texas A&M. I also think Arkansas and Texas Tech would be along for the ride:

1972
Texas, Texas Tech, Texas A&M, Arkansas, South Carolina, Georgia Tech, Florida State, Miami (FL)

The Southwest Conference - Baylor, Rice, SMU, and TCU - invite Houston (independent) and Missouri Valley members Wichita State, New Mexico State, Tulsa, and Memphis State. Drake, West Texas State, and North Texas State become independent. Louisville joins the new conference as it's ninth member.

If the ACC had not been able to lure Georgia Tech, Miami, or Florida State (Georgia Tech joined the ACC in 1979, but football did not join until 1983), the ACC grabs Pittsburgh instead. In 1991, the Big East forms, but only manages 6 programs in football.

The real test, though comes in 1992 - I don't see the SEC being turned down by Arkansas and South Carolina. At that point out project conference begins to fall apart. The ACC grabs Georgia Tech and Florida State. The Big East adds Miami and Louisville (remember, Pittsburgh is the ACC). Texas, Texas Tech, and Texas A&M join the Big 8, who also adds Baylor to become the Big 12. The SWC - New Mexico State, Tulsa, Memphis State, TCU, SMU, Rice, and Houston - invite Tulane and Southern Miss from the independent ranks to get to 9 members.

You'll note that 4 Conference USA teams have homeless football teams as we wrap up the 1990s: Cincinnati, East Carolina, UAB, and football-only Army. The WAC is still at 12 members after never expanding into the Central Time Zone because the Southwest Conference is still intact; Nevada would begin the Big West, but New Mexico State would not.

In 2001, the Sun Belt begins play after Big West football collapses. Arkansas State, North Texas, Louisiana Tech, and Louisiana-Lafayette are joined by Cincinnati, East Carolina, South Florida, and UAB. Boise State, Idaho, Nevada, and Utah State become independent.

In 2005, the ACC expands to 12 with Virginia Tech and Miami. The Big East responds by taking the Sun Belt's South Florida and Cincinnati. Louisiana Tech joins the SWC. The Sun Belt adds Louisiana-Monroe, UCF, and Marshall.

In 2011, Colorado and Utah join the Pac 12, and Nebraska joins the Big 10. BYU announces its independence. The WAC invites Boise State and Utah State.

In 2012, Texas A&M and Missouri join the SEC. TCU and West Virginia join the Big 12. Temple rejoins the Big East. UAB joins the SWC and is replaced by Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee.

In 2013, Boston College and Syracuse join the ACC. The Big East had invited Memphis, UCF, Houston, and SMU to join prior to becoming the American Athletic Conference. The SWC invites North Texas, FAU, FIU, and Marshall, and changes its name to Conference USA. The Sun Belt adds Georgia State and UTSA.

In 2014, Maryland and Rutgers join the Big Ten. Louisville replaces Maryland in the ACC. The American reloads with East Carolina and Tulane, and adds Tulsa to get to 11 members in advance of Navy arriving in 2015. Conference USA adds WKU and MTSU. The Sun Belt adds Troy, Charlotte, and Old Dominion.

American Athletic
West - Navy, Tulsa, Tulane, SMU, Houston, Memphis
East - UConn, Temple, Cincinnati, USF, UCF, East Carolina

Conference USA (formerly SWC)
West - NMSU, North Texas, Rice, Louisiana Tech, USM,
East - UAB, WKU, MTSU, FAU, FIU, Marshall

Sun Belt
West - UTSA, Arkansas State, Louisiana, ULM, USA, Troy
East - FAU, FIU, Georgia State, Georgia Southern, Charlotte, Old Dominion

Western Athletic
Pacific - Hawaii (football only), San Diego State, San Jose State, Fresno State, UNLV, Boise State
Mountain - Utah State, Wyoming, Colorado State, Air Force, New Mexico, UTEP

FBS Independents: Army, BYU, Idaho, Liberty, Massachusetts, Nevada, Notre Dame
Left out: App State, Coastal Carolina, Texas State

My take on this is that if SC could convince Clemson to come along they start the league with this line up:

Miami
FSU
GT
SC
Clemson
VT
WVU

Bring in the two state schools the ACC left behind in 1953. Maryland was also frequently on the outs with Tobacco Road and against the scholarship limits and 800 SAT score minimum. They might have been flipped for #8.

At that point, you’ve got UVA and Tobacco Road surrounded. They either soldier on with Richmond and William & Mary as filler or you force them to the negotiation table to join the new football oriented conference under the football school’s terms. Duke and WF likely get left behind in this model to lessen the influence of UVA, UNC, and NC St in the new organization.

There you have it, a football oriented alternative to the ACC that by the late 80s has seen much success by its two flagship programs FSU and Miami that when the SEC comes a calling there’s no interest on the Eastern Front.

In the 90s or 00s if they want to go looking for a 12th for a CCG they can shop around BC, Syracuse, Pitt, etc. it’s a long shot, but maybe they get to Penn St before Jim Delaney does.

If those four could’ve roped in Clemson and then add 2-3 more schools then maybe there could’ve been something. I think it certainly would have killed or at least damaged the ACC

(07-03-2020 10:51 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  

(07-03-2020 07:39 PM)johnintx Wrote:  

(07-03-2020 05:03 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  And FSU has to be regretting this decision when invited to the SEC and declined.

Short-term, it was a good decision. Bobby Bowden was on to something when he made the choice. FSU won their first 29 games as a member of the ACC. They went 10 years without losing a conference home game. FSU was a dominant program in that era, regardless, but they totally owned the ACC upon entry.

They would still have won championships in the SEC, but would have not have dominated it in the same way they dominated the ACC. FSU has won three national championships as members of the ACC. The number of NCs they would have won as members of the SEC is debatable.

There is no way that the powers that be in 1991 could have seen the amount of revenue generated by the SEC in the 2010s and 2020s. Hindsight is 20-20. But, I'm sure there are some FSU people that now wish they had chosen the SEC in 1991. SEC revenue could have softened the effects of their current instability.

Hindsight given, Bowden still made the wrong decision. The SEC was a football conference compared to the ACC. FSU was a football powerhouse, not basketball.

You should look on the other side of the coin.
When FSU joined the ACC they didn't have a medical school or much academic credibility.
They virtually had no women's athletics to speak of and their men's programs primarily consisted of football and baseball.
Now they have one of the top 4 all around athletic programs in the league winning multiple conference championships in many sports.
Taking women's soccer: a program that didn't exist when FSU joined the ACC. Swofford's daughter played for FSU as they graduated from club level to conference play, and now have won two national championships.
Yes, Florida State could have been a one-trick-pony in the SEC, but instead has developed one of the best, well rounded athletic programs in the NCAA by their participation as an ACC member.

(07-03-2020 05:03 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  

(07-03-2020 04:41 PM)johnintx Wrote:  There was an eight-year window between the time South Carolina left the ACC (1971) and Georgia Tech joined it (1979).

Georgia Tech was a charter member of the Metro when it was formed in 1975. South Carolina did not join the Metro until 1983. The Gamecocks had been trying to get back into the ACC.

Florida State joined the Metro in 1976. Miami was never in it.

In the mid-to-late 70's, Florida State became nationally relevant in football by playing multiple national powers (mostly on the road) and winning. Miami came of age in the early 80's and began winning national championships on the backs of local players.

In the 1980's and early 90's, most of the Metro schools were playing each other as independents. There was even an All-Southern Independent team (all-conference team). But, the schools were not aligned enough to form an entire all-sports conference. There were different priorities for each school. Plus, different schools had different ideas regarding revenue distribution. The relationships between Louisville, Memphis, Cincinnati, and the Metro/Great Midwest conferences have been discussed elsewhere on this board, especially regarding the founding of Conference USA.

So, the stars were never quite aligned for this second major Southern conference. Each school had different goals at various times in the 70's and 80's.

The ACC was able to add GT, FSU, and Miami, while SC made it into the SEC.

And FSU has to be regretting this decision when invited to the SEC and declined.

I’m not sure, they were quite successful in the 90’s and even won the national title this past decade.

Miami didn’t have a basketball program until the mid-80’s, so that was a speed bump for them to be included in any all-sports configuration.

In the late 70’s, Richmond, VMI, William & Mary, and ECU left the SoCon and joined up with S. Miss to talk about forming a southern based all-sports conference that would include Virginia Tech, South Carolina, and Florida State. FSU joined the Metro and the idea never got off the ground. VMI went back to the SoCon, while Richmond and W&M floundered as 1-A Independents for like six or seven years then returned to 1-AA.

In the mid-80’s, there was some talk of Metro football. West Virginia almost joined, but they finally elected to stay in the A10.

You missed a few:

1. What if Villanova never dropped football in 1981 and stayed in I-A instead of going to I-AA?
2. What if Wichita State and the Big West schools had kept football?
3. What if Holy Cross stayed in I-A in 1986?

(07-04-2020 09:04 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  You missed a few:

1. What if Villanova never dropped football in 1981 and stayed in I-A instead of going to I-AA?
2. What if Wichita State and the Big West schools had kept football?
3. What if Holy Cross stayed in I-A in 1986?

1. They would’ve been in the Big East until it split then joined the ACC. Louisville then joins Cincinnati as #11/#12 in the XII.
2. WAC remains a FBS conference with New Mexico St, Idaho, San Jose St, and the Big West schools that dropped. UTEP joins the MWC. Wichita St takes UTEP’s place in CUSA then joins the AAC when that conference is formed.
3. Holy Cross would likely be an independent and annual opponent of Notre Dame.