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Could a major conference formed around S Carolina, GT, FSU, and Miami?
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #21
RE: Could a major conference formed around S Carolina, GT, FSU, and Miami?
(07-04-2020 09:01 AM)esayem Wrote:  Miami didn’t have a basketball program until the mid-80’s, so that was a speed bump for them to be included in any all-sports configuration.

In the late 70’s, Richmond, VMI, William & Mary, and ECU left the SoCon and joined up with S. Miss to talk about forming a southern based all-sports conference that would include Virginia Tech, South Carolina, and Florida State. FSU joined the Metro and the idea never got off the ground. VMI went back to the SoCon, while Richmond and W&M floundered as 1-A Independents for like six or seven years then returned to 1-AA.

In the mid-80’s, there was some talk of Metro football. West Virginia almost joined, but they finally elected to stay in the A10.

Miami would need to start a basketball program sooner then, probably as part of the terms of getting to be in the conference.
07-04-2020 03:34 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #22
RE: Could a major conference formed around S Carolina, GT, FSU, and Miami?
(07-04-2020 09:04 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  You missed a few:

1. What if Villanova never dropped football in 1981 and stayed in I-A instead of going to I-AA?
2. What if Wichita State and the Big West schools had kept football?
3. What if Holy Cross stayed in I-A in 1986?

1. Villanova definitely ends up being the 9th member of the original Big East football and they probably still try to push Temple out. Villanova and UConn, working in tandem might have prevented the AAC/BE Split.

2. Wich St would really be out on an island. I’m guessing the spend some time as a Big West fb only and eventually become a SBC fb only. The Big West trio stabilizes Big West football, making the 90s a much more pleasant time for Big West football. NMSU and maybe even UNT have second thought about jumping to the SBC. Pacific, Long Beach St, and Cal St Fullerton all join a 12 team WAC in 2005.

3. I don’t know that Holy Cross had much of a choice in the matter—they didn’t meet the qualifications to stay at that level.
07-04-2020 03:52 PM
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johnintx Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Could a major conference formed around S Carolina, GT, FSU, and Miami?
(07-04-2020 03:34 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Miami would need to start a basketball program sooner then, probably as part of the terms of getting to be in the conference.

I had forgotten about that when responding earlier. Miami didn't restart basketball until 1985. There is a reason Miami was never in the Metro.

A second Southern conference could have been formed in the 70's or 80's with FSU as an anchor. The interests of the schools were never aligned at the same time.
07-04-2020 07:05 PM
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sierrajip Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Could a major conference formed around S Carolina, GT, FSU, and Miami?
(07-04-2020 08:17 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(07-03-2020 10:51 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  
(07-03-2020 07:39 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(07-03-2020 05:03 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  And FSU has to be regretting this decision when invited to the SEC and declined.

Short-term, it was a good decision. Bobby Bowden was on to something when he made the choice. FSU won their first 29 games as a member of the ACC. They went 10 years without losing a conference home game. FSU was a dominant program in that era, regardless, but they totally owned the ACC upon entry.

They would still have won championships in the SEC, but would have not have dominated it in the same way they dominated the ACC. FSU has won three national championships as members of the ACC. The number of NCs they would have won as members of the SEC is debatable.

There is no way that the powers that be in 1991 could have seen the amount of revenue generated by the SEC in the 2010s and 2020s. Hindsight is 20-20. But, I'm sure there are some FSU people that now wish they had chosen the SEC in 1991. SEC revenue could have softened the effects of their current instability.

Hindsight given, Bowden still made the wrong decision. The SEC was a football conference compared to the ACC. FSU was a football powerhouse, not basketball.

You should look on the other side of the coin.
When FSU joined the ACC they didn't have a medical school or much academic credibility.
They virtually had no women's athletics to speak of and their men's programs primarily consisted of football and baseball.
Now they have one of the top 4 all around athletic programs in the league winning multiple conference championships in many sports.
Taking women's soccer: a program that didn't exist when FSU joined the ACC. Swofford's daughter played for FSU as they graduated from club level to conference play, and now have won two national championships.
Yes, Florida State could have been a one-trick-pony in the SEC, but instead has developed one of the best, well rounded athletic programs in the NCAA by their participation as an ACC member.

Your vision that FSU became a top athletic program because it joined the ACC does not mean the athletics would have not been just as good or better in the SEC. As far as academics, their is no way to prove that, either.
07-04-2020 07:08 PM
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sierrajip Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Could a major conference formed around S Carolina, GT, FSU, and Miami?
(07-04-2020 08:54 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(07-03-2020 05:03 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  
(07-03-2020 04:41 PM)johnintx Wrote:  There was an eight-year window between the time South Carolina left the ACC (1971) and Georgia Tech joined it (1979).

Georgia Tech was a charter member of the Metro when it was formed in 1975. South Carolina did not join the Metro until 1983. The Gamecocks had been trying to get back into the ACC.

Florida State joined the Metro in 1976. Miami was never in it.

In the mid-to-late 70's, Florida State became nationally relevant in football by playing multiple national powers (mostly on the road) and winning. Miami came of age in the early 80's and began winning national championships on the backs of local players.

In the 1980's and early 90's, most of the Metro schools were playing each other as independents. There was even an All-Southern Independent team (all-conference team). But, the schools were not aligned enough to form an entire all-sports conference. There were different priorities for each school. Plus, different schools had different ideas regarding revenue distribution. The relationships between Louisville, Memphis, Cincinnati, and the Metro/Great Midwest conferences have been discussed elsewhere on this board, especially regarding the founding of Conference USA.

So, the stars were never quite aligned for this second major Southern conference. Each school had different goals at various times in the 70's and 80's.

The ACC was able to add GT, FSU, and Miami, while SC made it into the SEC.

And FSU has to be regretting this decision when invited to the SEC and declined.

I’m not sure, they were quite successful in the 90’s and even won the national title this past decade.

That was why Bowden picked the ACC. He knew FSU would be successful in football in the ACC. I lived in Florida and football was the main sport with mostly fans of the SEC in the state. To me it was a no brainer, to join the SEC, seeing how well Bowden recruited and would have been more competitive, along with the fact that UF was in the same conference.
As far as a NC, no one will ever know.
I only know that I regretted the decision at the time.
(This post was last modified: 07-04-2020 07:28 PM by sierrajip.)
07-04-2020 07:19 PM
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DFW HOYA Online
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Post: #26
RE: Could a major conference formed around S Carolina, GT, FSU, and Miami?
(07-04-2020 03:52 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  3. I don’t know that Holy Cross had much of a choice in the matter—they didn’t meet the qualifications to stay at that level.

Holy Cross' stadium was twice the size of Villanova, roughly 24,000. Had they joined the Big East as intended in 1979 (its president famously turned down the invitation, saying his college "was not in the entertainment business"), it's possible they could have attracted better opponents. Its last full season in I-A included BC, Army, UMass, Connecticut, Colgate, and five Ivies.
07-04-2020 07:45 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Could a major conference formed around S Carolina, GT, FSU, and Miami?
(07-04-2020 09:01 AM)esayem Wrote:  In the mid-80’s, there was some talk of Metro football. West Virginia almost joined, but they finally elected to stay in the A10.

Tranghese essentially stole the Metro football proposal (which never had enough support to be enacted) when creating Big East football, as discussed on this board a few times.

The original Big East football lineup was the north division of this Metro football concept, except with Miami in the lineup instead of Cincinnati.

Also, the south division of this proposal, minus FSU, Miami, and South Carolina, was the core of the C-USA v 1.0 football lineup -- in addition to subtracting the three named above, add Cincinnati and Houston.

[Image: super-conference-box.ashx?la=en]

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(This post was last modified: 07-04-2020 08:43 PM by Wedge.)
07-04-2020 08:39 PM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Could a major conference formed around S Carolina, GT, FSU, and Miami?
(07-04-2020 07:08 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  
(07-04-2020 08:17 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(07-03-2020 10:51 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  
(07-03-2020 07:39 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(07-03-2020 05:03 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  And FSU has to be regretting this decision when invited to the SEC and declined.

Short-term, it was a good decision. Bobby Bowden was on to something when he made the choice. FSU won their first 29 games as a member of the ACC. They went 10 years without losing a conference home game. FSU was a dominant program in that era, regardless, but they totally owned the ACC upon entry.

They would still have won championships in the SEC, but would have not have dominated it in the same way they dominated the ACC. FSU has won three national championships as members of the ACC. The number of NCs they would have won as members of the SEC is debatable.

There is no way that the powers that be in 1991 could have seen the amount of revenue generated by the SEC in the 2010s and 2020s. Hindsight is 20-20. But, I'm sure there are some FSU people that now wish they had chosen the SEC in 1991. SEC revenue could have softened the effects of their current instability.

Hindsight given, Bowden still made the wrong decision. The SEC was a football conference compared to the ACC. FSU was a football powerhouse, not basketball.

You should look on the other side of the coin.
When FSU joined the ACC they didn't have a medical school or much academic credibility.
They virtually had no women's athletics to speak of and their men's programs primarily consisted of football and baseball.
Now they have one of the top 4 all around athletic programs in the league winning multiple conference championships in many sports.
Taking women's soccer: a program that didn't exist when FSU joined the ACC. Swofford's daughter played for FSU as they graduated from club level to conference play, and now have won two national championships.
Yes, Florida State could have been a one-trick-pony in the SEC, but instead has developed one of the best, well rounded athletic programs in the NCAA by their participation as an ACC member.

Your vision that FSU became a top athletic program because it joined the ACC does not mean the athletics would have not been just as good or better in the SEC. As far as academics, their is no way to prove that, either.

It wasn't my vision (did you mean to write version?), it is fact, and only speculation on your part that FSU would have fared just as well in the SEC.
07-05-2020 07:53 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Could a major conference formed around S Carolina, GT, FSU, and Miami?
(07-04-2020 07:45 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(07-04-2020 03:52 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  3. I don’t know that Holy Cross had much of a choice in the matter—they didn’t meet the qualifications to stay at that level.

Holy Cross' stadium was twice the size of Villanova, roughly 24,000. Had they joined the Big East as intended in 1979 (its president famously turned down the invitation, saying his college "was not in the entertainment business"), it's possible they could have attracted better opponents. Its last full season in I-A included BC, Army, UMass, Connecticut, Colgate, and five Ivies.

Correct.

Holy Cross’ president deemphasized the football program to the level of the Patriot league when they had a genius of a coach in Rick Carter. Anybody not familiar with his tragic story needs to check it out. HC found their niche in the late 80’s and did quite well.

They were also a favorite to be the tenth member of the A10, but balked at the 11th hour and the spot went to St. Joe’s.
07-05-2020 08:20 AM
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