Don't make fun of me. I learned to appreciate historic markers--mostly headstones--during a joint geology/history research project back in my junior year. I found the size, detail, wording, and deterioration of limestone, fieldstone, sandstone, brownstone, granite, etc to be really fascinating. Each marker told a story. I didn't have to love the story to appreciate that a life was lived and/or an event happened.

I'd sure hate for these items to be tossed aside or destroyed. Put them some place where they'll be observed by those who want to see them.

Genghis Khan is responsible for the murders of 10% of the world's population but they have statues & memorials honoring him.





Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

My half northern Jewish, half southern Baptist wife would not appreciate the
comment about the Nazi soldier and the Confederate soldier. You better not stand
within arms length of her. FYi: She wears a 34 inch sleeve and she does attend
ALL football and basketball games. I will try to keep her calm.

(08-17-2020 02:49 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  

(08-17-2020 02:40 PM)DSL Wrote:  1693,
Keep in mind the northern army did indeed destroy the farms and communities as
they marched southward. They adopted a "total war" strategy," which included
making war on the civilians. Anything of use would be taken from a farm:
crops taken or burned, livestock taken or killed.
Virginians were on the defense and not the offense, until Lee moved toward
Gettysburg.
I'm not defending the southern political and economic elite who were calling the shots when it came to slavery and war. I will defend all of the common folks who were drawn into this conflict but had no real interest in fighting a war for some rich slaveholder who lived on the other side of the county.
The Williamsburg monument was a modest recognition of these common folk.
My wife and I walked by it for years without ever noticing that it was a Civil War monument.

Appreciate what you say and feel for your family's loss. Unfortunately, the monument is clearly NOT what you take home from it (see photo). If the monuments collectively said "To those Williamsburg residents who died in the Civil War," they wouldnt be as controversial. As many in the past have compared, there are no monuments in Germany to "Those Nazi soldiers who died defending their homeland." Many Nazi soldiers Im sure had little to no connection with the evil of Hitler, but were "following orders" or probably just got drafted. You still wouldnt expect any monument.

Now you're responsible for that pic being what everyone sees on the thread header.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

"Just curious what about the little farms needed "defending"? Were the farms being seized by the US Government and hence needed "defending"?

If there was a battle occurring on the farm, I can understand "defending" it from both the US Government AND the Confederacy, hence no need to join one side."

If one took Ludwell Johnson's History course at William and Mary entitled "The War of Northern Aggression", or of one read a book about the burning of the Shenandoah Valley, or if one watched the movie "Shenandoah" with Jimmy Stewart, or if one had just a rudimentary knowledge of the Civil War, and WHERE it was predominantly fought, and HOW it was fought at the end, or if one had a simple understanding of the timeline of events that led to Virginia's secession AFTER the original states seceded, or if one was aware of the Peninsula Campaign, ...

Good Lord, American farmers defended their farms one century earlier against French, British, Hessians, Indigenous people, and everything else under the sun. Somehow, Virginia farmers were supposed to rise above it all? One size fits all? 20/20 hindsight and all that.

War is hell. Remember that. And Southerners remember who said it, too!

Sheesh, people.

"Many Nazi soldiers Im sure had little to no connection with the evil of Hitler, but were "following orders" or probably just got drafted."

Today is a "two for one" day.

C'mon! The majority of the German people were "all in" with Hitler. The military took personal loyalty oaths re: Hitler. This, too, was taught by the History Department at William and Mary when I attended, and is expressed in countless books and movies.

What is going on here? The lack of historical knowledge is upsetting, and doesn't bode well for our future.

Prof Ludwell Johnson is mentioned above. What a great "teacher" of history.
And each day he would be in class early to draw a perfect map of the states on
the chalkboard. He started with the thirteen colonies and drew more and more states as the semester progressed.

I have multiple history professors in my neighborhood and they give him no respect.
They consider their perspectives far superior to his, even though they are barely out of college and his reputation was national. They laugh and claim he was always drinking bourbon.

If you are teaching Southern history, you should probably be drinking bourbon.

I think everyone should read his textbook.

(08-17-2020 05:30 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  Am I missing something? Do "loyalty vows" really mean something? Were they really "all in?" Do we have anonymous polls of the era? Funny thing about history is that its only as good as the data that we have collected.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_res..._to_Nazism

Im not defending Nazism or the monument. I said we should take it down...not honor "regular guys who werent in charge." Sheesh.

Did you even read what you linked?

“The outbreak of war served to rally the German people around the Hitler regime, and the sweeping early successes of the German Army – occupying Poland in 1939, Denmark and Norway in April 1940, and swiftly defeating France in May and June 1940, stilled virtually all opposition to the regime. The opposition to Hitler within the Army was left isolated and apparently discredited, since the much-feared war with the western powers had apparently been won by Germany within a year and at little cost. This mood continued well into 1941, although beneath the surface popular discontent at mounting economic hardship was apparent.”


“Others argued that Hitler was not to blame for the regime's excesses, and that the removal of Heinrich Himmler and reduction in the power of the SS was needed. Some oppositionists were devout Christians who disapproved of assassination as a matter of principle. Others, particularly the army officers, felt bound by the personal oath of loyalty they had taken to Hitler in 1934.”

Since we’re going to rely on Wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_oath

(08-17-2020 05:36 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  

(08-17-2020 03:22 PM)Tribal Wrote:  [Now you're responsible for that pic being what everyone sees on the thread header.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

Its a pic from the WY daily news. Authenticity matters.

Ok, but when someone tries to cancel Tribe Talk and uses that pic as Evidence #2, it's on your shoulders.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

(08-17-2020 06:54 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  Exactly. The 30's - people were ok with the Nazi party with promises of getting out of the depression (still relatively benign). Then, people were ok with "winning a war." Did this lovefest continue?

Your view of the 30’s is hogwash. It was not benign. It was pure evil, supported by a majority of the German people. Majority, not 100%, as there were those revolted by it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline..._Holocaust

This Nazi discussion has really taken over the thread.

If we could all agree that Virginians in the 1860's were nothing like Nazis,
then we wouldn't have to discuss German history in the 1930's.

Growing up, we played Civil War and we were the Confederates, but when
we played WW2 we were the Americans, not the Nazis.

If nothing else, this thread proves we are a bunch of intellectual nerds.
This stuff is far more interesting than anything on the JMU boards.

Actually, a valid point would be to analogize Virginians/slavery and Germans/Holocaust. Both systems were evil. It took wars to get rid of both systems.

The statue comparison is also somewhat valid. The victorious Allies took everything down vs. Reconstruction putting things back up.

My only point re: the Germans/Nazis/Hitler is ... the common German man and woman KNEW ... and they KNEW it early ... and it’s important not to lose sight of that because it explains a lot about human nature, and how it can happen again.

I see more references above to the Holocaust.
On behalf of my Southern, half Jewish wife, I will have to weigh in one last time.
Just ten years before her birth, her Jewish relatives were disappearing in the death camps in Europe.She and her family take Holocaust discussion very, very seriously.
The purpose of Nazis was to exterminate an entire ethnic/religious group and they enjoyed using the most gruesome means to do so. Have you seen the videos of lampshades made from skin ripped from the bodies of the Jew? Just for fun, they made products from their bones.

There is no comparison. Period!

Let's get this thread back on track. Tribe & current affairs. Thanks.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

Agree, Tribal. It's been an interesting day on the boards but this is exhausting.

(08-17-2020 07:12 PM)Tribal Wrote:  

(08-17-2020 05:36 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  

(08-17-2020 03:22 PM)Tribal Wrote:  [Now you're responsible for that pic being what everyone sees on the thread header.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

Its a pic from the WY daily news. Authenticity matters.

Ok, but when someone tries to cancel Tribe Talk and uses that pic as Evidence #2, it's on your shoulders.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

Deleted all of the posts. Are we now too far gone to attempt to have civilized discourse on these matters?

(08-17-2020 08:25 PM)nj alum Wrote:  Actually, a valid point would be to analogize Virginians/slavery and Germans/Holocaust. Both systems were evil. It took wars to get rid of both systems.

The statue comparison is also somewhat valid. The victorious Allies took everything down vs. Reconstruction putting things back up.

My only point re: the Germans/Nazis/Hitler is ... the common German man and woman KNEW ... and they KNEW it early ... and it’s important not to lose sight of that because it explains a lot about human nature, and how it can happen again.

Let's stop worshiping the North and demonizing the South. Absolutely, slavery was evil. But most Southerners had nothing to do with slavery. They probably had never seen a slave. The planter class ran the South, and they had maybe 2,000 families. Southerners fought because their local leaders told them war was coming and besides, they didn't like outsiders telling them what to do. And comparing the North to the "victorious Allies" of WWII is false. Very few Northerners fought to abolish slavery. They wanted to preserve the Union, an economic system that benefited them. By 1864, most Northern troops were draftees or signed up for bounties.

(08-17-2020 09:41 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  

(08-17-2020 07:12 PM)Tribal Wrote:  

(08-17-2020 05:36 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  

(08-17-2020 03:22 PM)Tribal Wrote:  [Now you're responsible for that pic being what everyone sees on the thread header.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

Its a pic from the WY daily news. Authenticity matters.

Ok, but when someone tries to cancel Tribe Talk and uses that pic as Evidence #2, it's on your shoulders.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

Deleted all of the posts. Are we now too far gone to attempt to have civilized discourse on these matters?

You didn't realize I was joking? Really?

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

(08-18-2020 05:36 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(08-17-2020 08:25 PM)nj alum Wrote:  Actually, a valid point would be to analogize Virginians/slavery and Germans/Holocaust. Both systems were evil. It took wars to get rid of both systems.

The statue comparison is also somewhat valid. The victorious Allies took everything down vs. Reconstruction putting things back up.

My only point re: the Germans/Nazis/Hitler is ... the common German man and woman KNEW ... and they KNEW it early ... and it’s important not to lose sight of that because it explains a lot about human nature, and how it can happen again.

Let's stop worshiping the North and demonizing the South. Absolutely, slavery was evil. But most Southerners had nothing to do with slavery. They probably had never seen a slave. The planter class ran the South, and they had maybe 2,000 families. Southerners fought because their local leaders told them war was coming and besides, they didn't like outsiders telling them what to do. And comparing the North to the "victorious Allies" of WWII is false. Very few Northerners fought to abolish slavery. They wanted to preserve the Union, an economic system that benefited them. By 1864, most Northern troops were draftees or signed up for bounties.

Sources?

(08-18-2020 05:36 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(08-17-2020 08:25 PM)nj alum Wrote:  Actually, a valid point would be to analogize Virginians/slavery and Germans/Holocaust. Both systems were evil. It took wars to get rid of both systems.

The statue comparison is also somewhat valid. The victorious Allies took everything down vs. Reconstruction putting things back up.

My only point re: the Germans/Nazis/Hitler is ... the common German man and woman KNEW ... and they KNEW it early ... and it’s important not to lose sight of that because it explains a lot about human nature, and how it can happen again.

Let's stop worshiping the North and demonizing the South. Absolutely, slavery was evil. But most Southerners had nothing to do with slavery. They probably had never seen a slave. The planter class ran the South, and they had maybe 2,000 families. Southerners fought because their local leaders told them war was coming and besides, they didn't like outsiders telling them what to do. And comparing the North to the "victorious Allies" of WWII is false. Very few Northerners fought to abolish slavery. They wanted to preserve the Union, an economic system that benefited them. By 1864, most Northern troops were draftees or signed up for bounties.

I’m not worshipping the North, nor am I demonizing the South.

However, the North won, the South lost, and slavery was ended in both the new States/territories, and the original/old southern states.

Reconstruction then happened to try to heal the country ... some good things happened and some bad things happened, and North and South can share the blame there.

How’s that?