(06-03-2020 06:24 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(06-02-2020 08:55 PM)clpp01 Wrote:  

(06-02-2020 07:46 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Yet ANOTHER reason for WVU to find a geographically reasonable conference.

That conference doesn't exist.

The ACC doesn't exist?

The ACC want's nothing to do with WV. So yes from WV's perspective it does not exist.

(06-03-2020 02:48 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(06-02-2020 07:26 PM)Thiefery Wrote:  As far as expansion for the Big 12.. AZ schools would add value with it's TV markets and population. It's one of the fastest growing states in the US right now (along with Texas). If the Big 12 were able to even grab both AZ schools and the SoCal schools, the bump in money would be huge for the conference. How does a conference that has homebases in Texas, AZ, and CA not hold up?
As far as travel goes, you can now have two 7 school divisions. Southwest Airlines would be making a killing throughout it's region. Would it be a little tougher for WV when it has to travel to CA or AZ? I'm sure it will but the conference schedule makers can give them a bye week prior to the game or after the game. It can work.

But why would the Arizona schools move? They get most of their out of state kids and athletes from California - so they need California. They get their research dollars from their too, and that money is four times that of athletics (in the Big 12, if you remove Texas, research is less than athletics ... totally different mindsets as a result in the faculty view). And for what, little-8 level of money, which is no better and probably worse than the next P12 even distribution. The money doesn't work, the culture doesn't work, the recruiting doesn't work.

A pissed off donor doesn't mean crap. Florida State had one a few years back and everyone was realigning them. Same thing here.

Why? Maybe because AZ had a total revenue of $95.8 mil and total expense of $103.3 mil? This is even before Covid 19. They can still recruit CA like they always have.. I mean it's like a 5/6 hr drive to SoCal, no? Think it's not a culture fit? Well that's the same reason why Colorado left the Big12 and it hasn't gotten any better even with most of it's alumni living on the left coast.
I'm sure AZ and ASU can continue to recruit in Texas as well, especially if it's in the same division as UT, bu, Tech, or even TCU. It also joins one of the top CBB leagues as well.
So yes I think AZ is up for grabs if the Big12 became aggressive in talks.

(06-03-2020 06:39 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 06:24 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(06-02-2020 08:55 PM)clpp01 Wrote:  

(06-02-2020 07:46 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Yet ANOTHER reason for WVU to find a geographically reasonable conference.

That conference doesn't exist.

The ACC doesn't exist?

The ACC want's nothing to do with WV. So yes from WV's perspective it does not exist.

I don't think thats true anymore with the addition of Louisville. If the B1G, SEC and Pac expand to 16 by devouring the Big XII the ACC would look favorably on WVU. FSU and Clemson have wrestled more control from the Tobacco Road crew. Also WVU is both a good FB and BBall program. That makes it a good possible member over AAC schools like Temple, Cincy or U_F.

(06-03-2020 08:04 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 06:39 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 06:24 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(06-02-2020 08:55 PM)clpp01 Wrote:  

(06-02-2020 07:46 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Yet ANOTHER reason for WVU to find a geographically reasonable conference.

That conference doesn't exist.

The ACC doesn't exist?

The ACC want's nothing to do with WV. So yes from WV's perspective it does not exist.

I don't think thats true anymore with the addition of Louisville. If the B1G, SEC and Pac expand to 16 by devouring the Big XII the ACC would look favorably on WVU. FSU and Clemson have wrestled more control from the Tobacco Road crew. Also WVU is both a good FB and BBall program. That makes it a good possible member over AAC schools like Temple, Cincy or U_F.

Just because the Big 12 gets devoured doesn't mean the ACC has to take West Virginia. If West Virginia is an extra mouth to feed for North Carolina, Duke, Clemson, Florida State, etc, West Virginia will be stuck in the Big 12 or whatever is left of it. They're not going to take less money just to save West Virginia (or anyone else). If ESPN wants West Virginia or anyone else in the ACC and is willing to increase the total payout to the ACC to accommodate it so each school still makes the same, then we can talk about it.

(06-03-2020 09:27 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 08:04 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 06:39 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 06:24 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(06-02-2020 08:55 PM)clpp01 Wrote:  That conference doesn't exist.

The ACC doesn't exist?

The ACC want's nothing to do with WV. So yes from WV's perspective it does not exist.

I don't think thats true anymore with the addition of Louisville. If the B1G, SEC and Pac expand to 16 by devouring the Big XII the ACC would look favorably on WVU. FSU and Clemson have wrestled more control from the Tobacco Road crew. Also WVU is both a good FB and BBall program. That makes it a good possible member over AAC schools like Temple, Cincy or U_F.

Just because the Big 12 gets devoured doesn't mean the ACC has to take West Virginia. If West Virginia is an extra mouth to feed for North Carolina, Duke, Clemson, Florida State, etc, West Virginia will be stuck in the Big 12 or whatever is left of it. They're not going to take less money just to save West Virginia (or anyone else). If ESPN wants West Virginia or anyone else in the ACC and is willing to increase the total payout to the ACC to accommodate it so each school still makes the same, then we can talk about it.

Where did I say they HAD to take them? If the other P4 are expanding the ACC will also grab a valuable member near it's footprint. It's easier to take WVU than try and stretch out to Texas.

(06-03-2020 10:21 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 09:27 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 08:04 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 06:39 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 06:24 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  The ACC doesn't exist?

The ACC want's nothing to do with WV. So yes from WV's perspective it does not exist.

I don't think thats true anymore with the addition of Louisville. If the B1G, SEC and Pac expand to 16 by devouring the Big XII the ACC would look favorably on WVU. FSU and Clemson have wrestled more control from the Tobacco Road crew. Also WVU is both a good FB and BBall program. That makes it a good possible member over AAC schools like Temple, Cincy or U_F.

Just because the Big 12 gets devoured doesn't mean the ACC has to take West Virginia. If West Virginia is an extra mouth to feed for North Carolina, Duke, Clemson, Florida State, etc, West Virginia will be stuck in the Big 12 or whatever is left of it. They're not going to take less money just to save West Virginia (or anyone else). If ESPN wants West Virginia or anyone else in the ACC and is willing to increase the total payout to the ACC to accommodate it so each school still makes the same, then we can talk about it.

Where did I say they HAD to take them? If the other P4 are expanding the ACC will also grab a valuable member near it's footprint. It's easier to take WVU than try and stretch out to Texas.

West Virginia's not valuable, especially to the ACC. If West Virginia has any demographic/market value, the ACC's already in those area(s). Temple and Cincinnati at least bring new markets and are better academically. Just because other conferences have 16 members doesn't mean the ACC has to have 16. Fewer pieces of the pie means the pieces are bigger.

(06-03-2020 10:41 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 10:21 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 09:27 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 08:04 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 06:39 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  The ACC want's nothing to do with WV. So yes from WV's perspective it does not exist.

I don't think thats true anymore with the addition of Louisville. If the B1G, SEC and Pac expand to 16 by devouring the Big XII the ACC would look favorably on WVU. FSU and Clemson have wrestled more control from the Tobacco Road crew. Also WVU is both a good FB and BBall program. That makes it a good possible member over AAC schools like Temple, Cincy or U_F.

Just because the Big 12 gets devoured doesn't mean the ACC has to take West Virginia. If West Virginia is an extra mouth to feed for North Carolina, Duke, Clemson, Florida State, etc, West Virginia will be stuck in the Big 12 or whatever is left of it. They're not going to take less money just to save West Virginia (or anyone else). If ESPN wants West Virginia or anyone else in the ACC and is willing to increase the total payout to the ACC to accommodate it so each school still makes the same, then we can talk about it.

Where did I say they HAD to take them? If the other P4 are expanding the ACC will also grab a valuable member near it's footprint. It's easier to take WVU than try and stretch out to Texas.

West Virginia's not valuable, especially to the ACC. If West Virginia has any demographic/market value, the ACC's already in those area(s). Temple and Cincinnati at least bring new markets and are better academically. Just because other conferences have 16 members doesn't mean the ACC has to have 16. Fewer pieces of the pie means the pieces are bigger.

Really? They're not valuable? But Cincy and Temple are? Thats why WVU has been part of the power structure since the modern era began and neither of those schools have?

(06-03-2020 11:18 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Really? They're not valuable? But Cincy and Temple are? Thats why WVU has been part of the power structure since the modern era began and neither of those schools have?

This seems to be hanging quite a lot of general value on a single realignment move, where some would argue that it was WVU because WVU was ready and willing to make the jump when the Big12 needed a school and UC was not.

Both UC and UCF are higher ranked Universities on the Shanghai list than WVU, though WVU is not as low ranked as some may imagine.

It certainly would not be shocking to see UC pull "a TCU" sometime this decade, getting an invite to join a floundering Big12 and then turning around to abandon the "new tweener" conference invite in favor of one from the ACC.

(06-01-2020 12:50 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(06-01-2020 10:04 AM)YNot Wrote:  

(05-31-2020 05:43 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Right idea, wrong institutions.

The correct answer is UC San Diego and Hawaii.

Hawaii makes some sense because they provide significant scheduling flexibility that could give the PAC control of Week 0, add additional inventory through the 13th game exemption, and Hawaii could take on a bunch of the late-night games for the PAC's television deal without upsetting local fans with late kickoffs (which has been a point of contention in the PAC).

Hawaii makes sense for a vacation. They make no sense in the Pac-12. The reason for a power conference to expand would be to increase the value of the conference. The University of Texas adds value to the Pac-12. Hawaii adds nothing. UCSD adds nothing. If you are USC football, why would you want Hawaii or UCSD? Do you want to let the next Marcus Allen or Reggie Bush or Junior Seau end up at UCSD? Does UCLA basketball want the next Bill Walton at UCSD?

Hawaii and UCSD do not bring additional markets and talent to the Pac-12 that they cannot already easily access. Hawaii uses California for recruitment of talent. UCLA has over 12,000 alumni in San Diego. USC has an alumni club of 1,700 members in San Diego. If the Pac-12 is going to expand, at a minimum the schools should offer something other than a great place to relax and play some golf.

Hawaii is an interesting case. No, Hawaii does not meet a lot of the metrics that a P5 conference should be looking at. Aloha Stadium does seat 50,000, but they average just over 26,000 in attendance (that includes the bowl game). That is close to Washington St. but still would be lowest in the conference. Academics would also be slightly lower than Washington St.'s (not to say anything negative about Washington St. itself, but just as a comparison.) However, it would be better than say a Houston or a New Mexico.

But, Hawaii is getting back to respectable in football and does have a BCS in its past, which is more than most G5s schools can say. And, Hawaii is also different because it can be a way to reach the Asian markets. At least in theory. And so it is a different entity with at least some different merits.

I don't know much about UCSD, but I'd say the PAC could do worse than Hawaii if they need a G5 expansion candidate.

(05-31-2020 05:17 PM)shizzle787 Wrote:  When realignment started everybody thought 16 was going to be the magic number for power conferences but it turns out it is really 14-

The only magic numbers are 8 and 9: The minimum to schedule a FB title game and then the ideal scheduling number.

All numbers higher than 9 now are about organizational strength and needs as well as revenue generation. There is no real upper boundary.

(06-03-2020 07:31 AM)Thiefery Wrote:  Why? Maybe because AZ had a total revenue of $95.8 mil and total expense of $103.3 mil? This is even before Covid 19. They can still recruit CA like they always have.. I mean it's like a 5/6 hr drive to SoCal, no? Think it's not a culture fit? Well that's the same reason why Colorado left the Big12 and it hasn't gotten any better even with most of it's alumni living on the left coast.
I'm sure AZ and ASU can continue to recruit in Texas as well, especially if it's in the same division as UT, bu, Tech, or even TCU. It also joins one of the top CBB leagues as well.
So yes I think AZ is up for grabs if the Big12 became aggressive in talks.

The Arizona schools will never give up the Southern California market and if they are not playing football and basketball in Los Angeles, they are giving it up. ASU has 10 recruiters based throughout California, up from four in 2013, with most focusing on first-time freshmen. In the Fall of 2017, there were more than 12,000 California students enrolled at ASU, both on campus and online. California students are headed to the state of Arizona in high numbers and there is nothing these Arizona schools are going to do to change that profitable trend.

In athletics, ASU had 21 football commits, with 14 of them from California and just two from Arizona. The class was ranked 23rd in the nation by 247sports. The football team in 2018-2019 made a profit of almost $13 million. I cannot see head coach Herm Edwards being happy about leaving the Pac-12.

The basketball team just landed their highest ranked recruit ever, Josh Christopher, a 5-star recruit out of Southern California. The previous high was James Hardin, also out of Southern California. The basketball team made a profit of a little over $2 million. I cannot see head coach Bobby Hurley being happy about leaving the Pac-12.

I cannot see any advantage in playing in the Big 12 for these UA and ASU. They do not want to be playing football and basketball games in Iowa, Kansas, Oklahoma, West Virginia. There is nothing exiting about Lubbock and Waco. I don't see that UA and ASU would bring anymore value to the Big 12 than they have to the Pac-12. Moving to a conference that is more than a 1,000 miles to the east is senseless.

Quote:Hawaii makes some sense because they provide significant scheduling flexibility that could give the PAC control of Week 0, add additional inventory through the 13th game exemption

If Hawaii were to join a P5 conference, would that exemption likely remain for the long term?

I do like the idea of them joining the PAC-12. The exemption would be a critical part of that deal, though.

(06-03-2020 02:59 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  The Arizona schools will never give up the Southern California market

I agree, but would add "likely". If the B1G or another were to successfully pull away the major CA schools from the Pac-12, I could see ASU's and UA's minds changing.

(06-03-2020 04:00 PM)PlayBall! Wrote:  

Quote:Hawaii makes some sense because they provide significant scheduling flexibility that could give the PAC control of Week 0, add additional inventory through the 13th game exemption

If Hawaii were to join a P5 conference, would that exemption likely remain for the long term?

I do like the idea of them joining the PAC-12. The exemption would be a critical part of that deal, though.

The exemption exists primarily to help UH schedule out of conference games, not to make UH attractive as a conference member. Hence I would expect the exemption to remain in place even if UH joined a P5 conference.

Having said that, I'll repeat what I said above: regardless of athletic and market considerations, and despite its current Carnegie R1 (very high research) status, I don't believe UH will be viewed as a fitting candidate to join the Pac-12 unless and until its current $327 million endowment is substantially increased. The lowest endowment of any current Pac-12 member is Oregon State's $623 million and nine members have endowments over $1 billion.

Shizzle: would the teams left out find a home in the MWC?

(06-03-2020 02:59 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 07:31 AM)Thiefery Wrote:  Why? Maybe because AZ had a total revenue of $95.8 mil and total expense of $103.3 mil? This is even before Covid 19. They can still recruit CA like they always have.. I mean it's like a 5/6 hr drive to SoCal, no? Think it's not a culture fit? Well that's the same reason why Colorado left the Big12 and it hasn't gotten any better even with most of it's alumni living on the left coast.
I'm sure AZ and ASU can continue to recruit in Texas as well, especially if it's in the same division as UT, bu, Tech, or even TCU. It also joins one of the top CBB leagues as well.
So yes I think AZ is up for grabs if the Big12 became aggressive in talks.

The Arizona schools will never give up the Southern California market and if they are not playing football and basketball in Los Angeles, they are giving it up. ASU has 10 recruiters based throughout California, up from four in 2013, with most focusing on first-time freshmen. In the Fall of 2017, there were more than 12,000 California students enrolled at ASU, both on campus and online. California students are headed to the state of Arizona in high numbers and there is nothing these Arizona schools are going to do to change that profitable trend.

In athletics, ASU had 21 football commits, with 14 of them from California and just two from Arizona. The class was ranked 23rd in the nation by 247sports. The football team in 2018-2019 made a profit of almost $13 million. I cannot see head coach Herm Edwards being happy about leaving the Pac-12.

The basketball team just landed their highest ranked recruit ever, Josh Christopher, a 5-star recruit out of Southern California. The previous high was James Hardin, also out of Southern California. The basketball team made a profit of a little over $2 million. I cannot see head coach Bobby Hurley being happy about leaving the Pac-12.

I cannot see any advantage in playing in the Big 12 for these UA and ASU. They do not want to be playing football and basketball games in Iowa, Kansas, Oklahoma, West Virginia. There is nothing exiting about Lubbock and Waco. I don't see that UA and ASU would bring anymore value to the Big 12 than they have to the Pac-12. Moving to a conference that is more than a 1,000 miles to the east is senseless.

You know the state of TX also produces 5 star bball players too right? Guess Lubbock wasn't so bad when AZ had a home and home series with them either but yeah.. if they left they totally would lose all the CA players they seem to get right? Even tho it's just a 5 hour drive to SoCal?

(06-04-2020 07:49 AM)Thiefery Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 02:59 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 07:31 AM)Thiefery Wrote:  Why? Maybe because AZ had a total revenue of $95.8 mil and total expense of $103.3 mil? This is even before Covid 19. They can still recruit CA like they always have.. I mean it's like a 5/6 hr drive to SoCal, no? Think it's not a culture fit? Well that's the same reason why Colorado left the Big12 and it hasn't gotten any better even with most of it's alumni living on the left coast.
I'm sure AZ and ASU can continue to recruit in Texas as well, especially if it's in the same division as UT, bu, Tech, or even TCU. It also joins one of the top CBB leagues as well.
So yes I think AZ is up for grabs if the Big12 became aggressive in talks.

The Arizona schools will never give up the Southern California market and if they are not playing football and basketball in Los Angeles, they are giving it up. ASU has 10 recruiters based throughout California, up from four in 2013, with most focusing on first-time freshmen. In the Fall of 2017, there were more than 12,000 California students enrolled at ASU, both on campus and online. California students are headed to the state of Arizona in high numbers and there is nothing these Arizona schools are going to do to change that profitable trend.

In athletics, ASU had 21 football commits, with 14 of them from California and just two from Arizona. The class was ranked 23rd in the nation by 247sports. The football team in 2018-2019 made a profit of almost $13 million. I cannot see head coach Herm Edwards being happy about leaving the Pac-12.

The basketball team just landed their highest ranked recruit ever, Josh Christopher, a 5-star recruit out of Southern California. The previous high was James Hardin, also out of Southern California. The basketball team made a profit of a little over $2 million. I cannot see head coach Bobby Hurley being happy about leaving the Pac-12.

I cannot see any advantage in playing in the Big 12 for these UA and ASU. They do not want to be playing football and basketball games in Iowa, Kansas, Oklahoma, West Virginia. There is nothing exiting about Lubbock and Waco. I don't see that UA and ASU would bring anymore value to the Big 12 than they have to the Pac-12. Moving to a conference that is more than a 1,000 miles to the east is senseless.

You know the state of TX also produces 5 star bball players too right? Guess Lubbock wasn't so bad when AZ had a home and home series with them either but yeah.. if they left they totally would lose all the CA players they seem to get right? Even tho it's just a 5 hour drive to SoCal?

Its pretty simple, the Arizona schools aren't going to trade down/out of California for Texas as it is not worth it to them. As was mentioned a bit earlier, the only way that the Arizona schools would go to the Big12 (if it was still around as is by that point) is if the California schools made the decision for them by moving to the B1G and either/both AZ schools were unable to tag along with them.

SoCalBobcat78 is 100% correct on the Arizona schools. They are wedded to the California schools and to California in general.

The B12, if it is to keep Oklahoma, will have to go to uneven revenue sharing, which means the little-8 will get less so Texas and Oklahoma can financially keep pace with the B1G and SEC. And if that is the case, then there is no more money in the B12 than in the P12. Also the fans will not be happy playing West Virginia, Kansas, K State, Texas Tech, Oklahoma State and Iowa State. What a come down from the schools they play now from the Pacific Coast in both prestige and fan interest -- it's where most of the out of state alumni live. California kids will be less inclined to go to the Arizona schools, especially athletes, when they wont be playing games in front of their family and friends in the Bay Area or SoCal. It makes no sense for the athletic department, and it's not a culture fit either.

I have already covered the need for tight bonds with California for student job placement, for research dollars and for business interest. But the proximity is another thing, as SoCalBobcat78 points out.

It's a stupid idea from a disgruntled booster who thinks there is more money for the sports teams (there is not). The B12 is less stable than the Pac-12, and leaving probably means being shunned by California. Just not a smart move at all.

When you add it up, the best case scenario is similar