(08-02-2021 04:09 PM)nj alum Wrote:  Regardless, the unvaccinated are also aware that, historically, vaccines that cause more than 50 deaths are stopped / pulled, and this “vaccine” has caused more deaths than the past 30 years of combined deaths from all vaccines.

Well that would be concerning if there was any basis for it. What are these vaccines that are pulled at 50 deaths? I'm not saying you are wrong, but I can't see any historic trend. I do know that there is absolutely zero evidence that the Covid vaccine "has caused more deaths than the past 30 years of combined deaths from all vaccines." To the contrary, by all accounts the vaccines efficacy is fairly unmatched in the world of vaccines. That's not me pulling hot takes off social media. It's taking data from researchers and epidemiologists. Respected professionals in their field with skin in the game.

You have the right to privacy and can make your own decisions. Unfortunately, when you live in a community, considerations for the many often outweigh the desires of the few. I hope it doesn't come to it, but in the near future once there is FDA approval, proof of vaccination will probably be required to attend schools, to fly in commercial airplanes, and possibly to attend certain public venues. The option will be there to reenter society and the community or live on the outskirts. Choice is yours. Perhaps divisions will fall state by state. I'm not sure vaccines are a red vs blue thing though. Vaccine hesitancy seems to be bipartisan.

20 years. :-)

Based on VAERS:

Middle of the article-

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fact...587577002/

Looking for the pull after 50. :-)

Making me work!

Yes, if and when the FDA gives approval, the unvaccinated will have to choose. But right now, it’s experimental. And if the FDA gives approval before the traditional 5-7 year window, ...

Pulling after minimal deaths (50 might have been too high on my part):

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/health/eu...index.html

The unvaccinated aren’t sure that CNN is singing the same tune one year later.

https://www.nytimes.com/1976/10/13/archi...shots.html

https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/dutc...ter-deaths

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/corona...ine-166116

CDC uses VAERS for vax recalls:

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/recalls.html

And this is concerning for the unvaccinated young people:

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-ne...s-n1270339

54% vaccinated is shameful. The folks in rural areas A) can't get to a location to undergo syringe time or B) refused.

Makes no sense.

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(08-02-2021 06:34 PM)Tribal Wrote:  54% vaccinated is shameful. The folks in rural areas A) can't get to a location to undergo syringe time or B) refused.

Makes no sense.

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Well, if one looks at the demographic data put out by Virginia, based on age, the percentage of the vaccinated corresponds with the likelihood of risk as noted by the NYC data. So, both the vaccinated and unvaccinated appear to be making reasoned decisions, based on age and perceived risk.

Young people without underlying conditions survive COVID and don’t want to deal with vax side effects. Older people / folks with underlying conditions choose the vax to survive COVID; the side effects just come with the territory. Just folks making reasoned decisions; demonization is inappropriate.

https://www.vdh.virginia.gov/coronavirus...ographics/

40% of NYC teachers haven’t been vaccinated.

https://nypost.com/2021/08/01/masking-ki...ssion=true

43% vaccination rate for NYC cops and 55% for NYC firefighters.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/af...accinated/

Young people can carry the virus and spread it. It's not just about protecting oneself.

What are the terrible side effects? I had a sore upper arm for a day. Worst side effect of all the people I know was flu-like symptoms between 12-30 hours. Big deal.

Why? I get initial hesitation as they waited to see how vaccinated individuals responded.

Nowadays, we all know it *mostly* comes down to people who are inherently resistant and/or adamantly don't trust the government. I am wildly suspicious about most of what our local, state, and federal government does but refusing vaccination seems silly...for lack of a harsher word.

I don't measure commonsense by actions of NYers.


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All I can say is that I am really bummed out that folks are still debating vaccination hesitancy and not reveling in the return of our favorite sports to in person attendance.

Folks are doing whatever they want and they will have to live with the consequences.

I have given up trying to figure out what motivates people to change their behavior in regards to this pandemic.

I guess I need to sign off until Labor Day weekend.


Go Tribe!

(08-02-2021 04:09 PM)nj alum Wrote:  

(08-02-2021 03:12 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  As ambiguous as the VAERS data is, those numbers reported point to how effective the vaccine is. ~ 27,000 people with reported issues that may or may not have anything to do with the vaccine compared to the 165 million people that are fully inoculated. I don't have a math degree but am smart enough to know that the numbers point towards the vaccine being wildly successful.

Now, having any loved one die is horrible, but big picture- 12,000 deaths over a 165 million population is extremely low. Factor in as well that these deaths may have nothing to do with the vaccine. A far greater percentage of people die due to elective surgeries or unforseen allergic reactions. I will grant you, the 12,000 number is about double the death rate as a result of aspirin.

This Twitter post uses late July data taken from the CDC
https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1421855112180518913

Well, that’s like saying that those who died with COVID in their system didn’t really die of COVID ...

The argument for the vaccine is that 12,000 deaths in the population is wildly successful, although a general named Pyrrhus does come to mind. And of course, the 12,000 number is the current number, and is only rising.

Regardless, the unvaccinated are also aware that, historically, vaccines that cause more than 50 deaths are stopped / pulled, and this “vaccine” has caused more deaths than the past 30 years of combined deaths from all vaccines.

Anyway, we all have the right of privacy, the right to choose, and the right to make our own health choices.

No, a citizen's "right of privacy" ends when his/ her actions harm the rest of society. If you get the vaccine, you won't die or end up in the hospital with COVID. If you don't, then you may die or wind up in the hospital on a ventilator. Doctors and nurses must then fight to save your anti-science butts. You take up hospital beds that otherwise might be used for a responsible citizen who needs it. The rest of us must pay, through higher insurance rates, indoor mask mandates, shuttered schools, business closures, etc. All that when the cure is right under your nose. Shame.

It's obviously a single, unique occurrence, but the CDC's data from the Provincetown situation is sort of interesting: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/m...mm7031e2_w

Some tidbits:

- "469 cases of COVID-19 associated with ... large public gatherings in a town in Barnstable County, Massachusetts, were identified among Massachusetts residents"
- "[V]accination coverage among eligible Massachusetts residents was 69%"
- "Approximately three quarters (346; 74%) of cases occurred in fully vaccinated persons." [The remaining 26% included unvaccinated persons, persons whose vaccination status is unknown, and persons "not fully vaccinated." "Fully vaccinated" was defined "≥14 days after completion of state immunization registry–documented COVID-19 vaccination."]
- "274 (79%) vaccinated patients with breakthrough infection were symptomatic."
- "Among five COVID-19 patients who were hospitalized, four were fully vaccinated; no deaths were reported."
- "One hospitalized patient (age range = 50–59 years) was not vaccinated and had multiple underlying medical conditions. Four additional, fully vaccinated patients aged 20–70 years were also hospitalized, two of whom had underlying medical conditions."
- "There was no significant difference between the Ct values of samples collected from breakthrough cases and the other cases. This might mean that the viral load of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons infected with SARS-CoV-2 is also similar. However, microbiological studies are required to confirm these findings."

Be mindful of the caveats contained in the report, most notably (to me, at least) that "data from this report are insufficient to draw conclusions about the effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines against SARS-CoV-2, including the Delta variant, during this outbreak." But still interesting.

1983-

Why do I have an image of Donald Sutherland at the end of the Invasion of the Body Snatchers in my mind?

The “vax” are not a cure; they may prevent.

https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download

https://www.fda.gov/media/146305/download

Per the recent CDC slide, those who have taken the “vax”’s ability to prevent transmission may be less effective.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RWMaloneMD/st...43/photo/1

Those who have gotten the vax now run the risk of ADE.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...9-vaccine/

The cloth masks are useless.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspect...xperts-say

The unvax who have already had COVID, under traditional understanding of medicine, have no need for a vax.

Pornographers, smokers, people who voluntarily choose not to watch their weight, people who have abortions, etc., harm the rest of society, take up beds, etc., but haven’t lost their rights.

Both the vax and the unvax believe that they are following the science.

“Shaming” is inappropriate relative to this issue, as it is for most issues.

(08-03-2021 09:01 AM)nj alum Wrote:  1983-

Why do I have an image of Donald Sutherland at the end of the Invasion of the Body Snatchers in my mind?

The “vax” are not a cure; they may prevent.

https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download

https://www.fda.gov/media/146305/download

Per the recent CDC slide, those who have taken the “vax”’s ability to prevent transmission may be less effective.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RWMaloneMD/st...43/photo/1

Those who have gotten the vax now run the risk of ADE.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...9-vaccine/

The cloth masks are useless.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspect...xperts-say

The unvax who have already had COVID, under traditional understanding of medicine, have no need for a vax.

Pornographers, smokers, people who voluntarily choose not to watch their weight, people who have abortions, etc., harm the rest of society, take up beds, etc., but haven’t lost their rights.

Both the vax and the unvax believe that they are following the science.

“Shaming” is inappropriate relative to this issue, as it is for most issues.

Here is one of many articles about anti-vaxxers belatedly embracing the vaccine from their hospital beds. I hope this doesn't happen to you.: https://www.baltimoresun.com/coronavirus...story.html

Your claim about the COVID vaccine and ADE is bogus as well.
https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/antibo...n-vaccines "Zero vaccines today cause ADE."

It seems like no matter what the science points to, antivax people's heels will be dug in. My hope is that once the FDA approval is done (Pfizer vaccine approval is expected by September), that many of the hesitant will come around. I'm starting to think it won't matter what the FDA does or what the reality of what is happening in the real world shows, people have made up their minds and there is always the echo chamber of social media to reinforce whatever belief you have. FDA approval? - "nope, doesn't mean it's safe. It was rushed through under political pressure"
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/07/...f-they-are

A positive, IMO, is that more and more private businesses are requiring proof of vaccination. This will continue and spread across the country as many businesses want to return to normal. My guess is that once that FDA approval is complete, conducting most business of a public nature will be difficult without proof of vaccination. Sporting events, concerts, restaurants, bars, malls, schools, busses, & air travel are heading that direction.

I'm starting to move towards the thinking of if you want to be stupid, let them be stupid. Stop with the masks that are intended to limit the spread to the vulnerable unvaccinated. Masks really aren't needed to protect the vaccinated. As long as we are in a state that anybody who wants the vaccine can get it, let those that chose not to deal with the repercussions. My only reason for pause is that willing families with children under 12 cannot have the vaccine. I don't think it's right to willingly endanger them. Adults of sound mind? Knock yourself out... Literally.

(08-03-2021 10:07 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  It seems like no matter what the science points to, antivax people's heels will be dug in. My hope is that once the FDA approval is done (Pfizer vaccine approval is expected by September), that many of the hesitant will come around. I'm starting to think it won't matter what the FDA does or what the reality of what is happening in the real world shows, people have made up their minds and there is always the echo chamber of social media to reinforce whatever belief you have. FDA approval? - "nope, doesn't mean it's safe. It was rushed through under political pressure"
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/07/...f-they-are

A positive, IMO, is that more and more private businesses are requiring proof of vaccination. This will continue and spread across the country as many businesses want to return to normal. My guess is that once that FDA approval is complete, conducting most business of a public nature will be difficult without proof of vaccination. Sporting events, concerts, restaurants, bars, malls, schools, busses, & air travel are heading that direction.

I'm starting to move towards the thinking of if you want to be stupid, let them be stupid. Stop with the masks that are intended to limit the spread to the vulnerable unvaccinated. Masks really aren't needed to protect the vaccinated. As long as we are in a state that anybody who wants the vaccine can get it, let those that chose not to deal with the repercussions. My only reason for pause is that willing families with children under 12 cannot have the vaccine. I don't think it's right to willingly endanger them. Adults of sound mind? Knock yourself out... Literally.

The best way is for the authorities to continue to isolate anti-vaxxers. NYC just announced it is requiring everyone to show proof of COVID vaccination before entering restaurants or entertainment sites. If more cities follow suit, then maybe the anti-vaxxers will get the message.

(08-03-2021 10:42 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  The best way is for the authorities to continue to isolate anti-vaxxers. NYC just announced it is requiring everyone to show proof of COVID vaccination before entering restaurants or entertainment sites. If more cities follow suit, then maybe the anti-vaxxers will get the message.

I agree that ratcheting up the cost in order to participate in society may help in getting shots in people's arms. I have an uneasy feeling that the federal government is going to punt on a federal mandate and leave it up to the states to enforce. If this happens, it will get political and is doomed to fail. I'm skeptical that necessary moves like this in NYC will be as popular to folks in rural Florida.

1983-

You cited the opinion of Dr. Fadul.

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/antibo...n-vaccines
https://www.nebraskamed.com/doctors/nada-a-fadul

Dr. Malone has a different opinion.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/mrna-v...dangerous/

I do find it somewhat disheartening that discussions concerning opposing view points are becoming extinct.

So, I’m going to leave for a while.

I simply wanted to try to put the brakes on the shaming of the unvaccinated that was occurring in this thread.

And when I find myself on my death bed, like every human being that’s ever lived, is living, and will ever live, I will echo the words of the good thief, and pray that I get the same response.

The fact is that we will never really stay ahead of any virus. There are more viruses on the planet than stars in the universe. That's a lot. The nasty ones can easily wipe out lots of us if we don't use the mentality that we are a species and not just individual people. Think about Polio and HIV. Those viruses did a lot of damage and HIV still does. Let's hope that this coronavirus runs its course and doesn't keep mutating into stronger strains.