This one hurts worse.

As Tribe fans, we are used to disappointment in the conference tournament. But I, for one, think this one hurts a little - no, a lot - worse than the others. I think there are two primary reasons for that.

First, Nathan Knight deserved an NCAA bid. Hell, all these guys did. But Nathan is a truly special player - one of W&M's best (and classiest). He deserved a better ending.

Second, the timing of Coach Shaver's departure - at least for me - will leave a gaping "what could have been" that makes it tough to accept this one.

The timing of AD Huge's decision is what always confused me. Maybe her hand was forced. We'll never know, and I don't want to re-open that debate. But I do want to discuss the effects of that timing -- the scar left by that timing.

Because Coach Shaver did not have the opportunity to coach one more year with Nathan and maybe the most talented W&M team ever, he did not have that one last, satisfying chance to prove himself on the court. That's part of the reason why defenders of Coach Shaver continue to hang an asterisk on Coach Fischer whenever they can. It's why our board gets so divisive so quickly compared to years past. It's why we can't move on.

Had Coach Shaver stayed and led this team to this exact same finish, I think more of us would be more accepting of a decision NOW by AD Huge to move on. But - alas - that is not the case.

And if Coach Fischer winds up winning 10 or fewer games next season (which Coach Shaver did 6 times), will we turn on him or rally behind him? I hope the latter.

I live in a world where I like BOTH Coach Shaver and Coach Fischer. I am more than skeptical of AD Huge, but I do see some value she has brought.

But for me, the question is, at what point can we just enjoy a new basketball arena even if it might make AD Huge look good? When can we just be happy that Coach Fischer is the coach of the year? When will the scar heal?

And I think it's okay if you say "not yet." But I hope we can all start talking to each other again in a way that is more "One Tribe" than it has been of late.

I think the "scab" varies on the fan. For me, the scab was pulled off long ago and I've been OK with things and healed for some time. Some are still quite sore about it and recovery is slow. For some, it is an unhealing festering wound. As annoyed as I get by the continual bringing up of the same gripes over and over again, I know the venting is an important part for people to be able to get right.

Had Shaver had the same record as Fischer this year, I would've understood firing him. Even with the record-breaking regular season. I feel he would've had the players to win it all, even if a couple had transferred out.

But, that didn't happen and I'm left with no hope of sniffing a CAAT for at least 3 seasons. Our women's team will make it to the NCAAT before our men's team. Bank on that.

At the end of the day, the Shaver firing debacle no longer spoils my fun. It's the repeated fumbles that won't allow for healing...like the radio silence after a big loss.


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Nice post. It certainly was more fun back a few years ago. Most of us remember a time when the basketball season was filled with an occasional hope and a lot of good tries. I remember going with some of my 91 classmates to see us beat VCU in 1995. As we gleefully ran to purchase our tickets for the ODU semifinal, we had a great time imagining Tribe basketball success. Aside from Charlie's 98' team which also lost in its quarterfinal as the 2 seed, there were no seasons of hope. I guess for me, I liked the way Coach Shaver coached, how he represented the college, and the character of the players and students he coached. The style was fun and he won a lot more. But, we didn't win in 2008(although we won 3 tournament games), 2010(a painful final for a great team), 2014(nothing needs to be said) or 2015(or tired legs after the best Tribe tournament game I have ever seen). It will be a while before I get over that staff not getting 2020 in DC to go for it given the history and the upward recruiting. I also fully recognize some were more than ready for that staff to be gone. But especially in the last 10 years, we got players that we significant upgrades from what we used to have. There was definite hope in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019(until one bad half led to a meltdown).

I don't think ANY of the pro-Shaver group is against Dane Fischer at all. If things had gone according to plan, we likely would have someone else coaching. I think it appears we were very fortunate to get the man we got instead. I look forward to supporting him and cheering for him. I was happy he got the Coach of the Year this season. He did a great job under trying circumstances. He will need time to build his team and his program which I hope he will be given. As for the Scar, time is likely the only thing that will heal it. You could hear at Marcus Thornton's retirement ceremony that there was great affection for the prior staff. Ultimately soon, any success that comes will be from a new group of players only affiliated with Coach Fischer. That likely will make things easier because the what ifs begin to disappear. I am disappointed for the current players, but no more than I was for the players of the last 10+ years. It sounds as though Nathan, Andy and Bryce represented the Tribe well this season. They will be missed. Most of us also miss Paul, Justin, Matt, Chase and LJ after last season.

OP- in typical nerd fashion, I believe the scar occurs at the end of the healing process. :-)

A Jon Holmes team knocked the Rowe/Huge program out of Dance consideration so that no one gets to write W&M on their dance card this year.

For all of those in the CAA, the region, alumni body, and national hoops community who believe that Tony got a raw deal, this was a classic come-uppance.

We reaped what we sowed.

The word “humiliation” comes to mind as it applies to those who cut ties with Tony and Tony’s program (the word does not apply to Dane and the team, just those who made the decision).

That those of us who still support Tony are collateral damage in this humiliation as the powers that be got their come-uppance frosts me to no end. I signed up for a College that is run in a classy way, not this.

I’ll finish with this.

Here is the bottom line ... the dismissal of Tony Shaver is no longer justifiable. To all of those that moved on .... from me, who did not move on ... you moved on, right off a cliff ... and you were warned about same from folks who shared my point of view.

The reception that the Elon players gave Jon after the game spoke volumes.

Repeat ... the dismissal of Tony Shaver is no longer justifiable.

This obsession with the Dance has got to stop.

But if that is our standard, our Administration has failed for three years. When does the accountability there begin?

I believe Huge promised 3 CAA championships within 3 years coming from FBB, WBB, and MBB. 9 opportunities to fulfill that promise. Currently 0-2.



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(03-09-2020 11:04 AM)Marshall Wythe Wrote:  Had Coach Shaver stayed and led this team to this exact same finish, I think more of us would be more accepting of a decision NOW by AD Huge to move on.

It is clear that I am pro-Shaver and anti-Huge. However, opposite to what some posters have generally inferred about us as a group, I was not rooting for failure but was rooting really really hard for a CAAT championship this year. Not just for the obvious reasons that that is what a W&M fan would do -- but also because I wanted to avoid the exact feeling that I have right now. A deep DEEP disappointment and sadness about what might have been if the Shaver firing had not occurred. Now we will never know, and Tony never got the chance he deserved. If we had won this year under Fischer, it would have been easier to take and, in the minds of some but not all, Huge's move may have even been justified. Now, as NJ Alum said, there is no justification for the move because, obviously, a Tribe collapse cannot simply be attributed to Tony's coaching.

Re the post at the top: yes, many of us last spring said that Tony deserved another year and if he then failed, then okay, make a change. Are you requiring us to go back and find those posts, too? (Still waiting for that tip of the cap you promised ....).

I believe Dane will turn out to be a good coach at this level. If that turns out to be the case, after we failed at whatever high-profile coach we thought we were dumping Tony for, I will consider that a relief.

We had by far the most talent and we assumed (correctly, as it turned out) that it would be a weak year at the top of the conference, anchored by the kind of star you get in your program maybe once a decade. Doing anything to jeopardize that talent advantage was malpractice, and the guys we replaced them with were, no disrespect intended, not of the same caliber. (Which is no knock on the new staff, who appear to have done the best with what they had. Justin Pierces and Chase Audiges simply don't grow on trees.)

I suspect it's going to be a couple years before we're serious contenders again. I hope we're unable to unearth some more gems. Ayesa in particular looks very promising.

We may not see a player like Nathan Knight for another 50 years. We haven't had a player between Jeff Cohen and Knight (59 years) who was remotely close to either of their talent. I don't think people really appreciate how good Nathan is for a program like ours.

(03-09-2020 01:51 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  We may not see a player like Nathan Knight for another 50 years. We haven't had a player between Jeff Cohen and Knight (59 years) who was remotely close to either of their talent. I don't think people really appreciate how good Nathan is for a program like ours.

Excellent post and a perfect lead-in to the following observation:

William & Mary -- as a school -- grossly underachieved while featuring Nathan Knight. Note that I am NOT repeat NOT saying that Knight underachieved. On the contrary, he went above and beyond his peers and his number should be retired at the first possible opportunity.

Note also that I am not assigning blame to the current coach, the previous coach, both coaches, ineptness/incompetence on the part of anyone in the athletic department, or just to the cosmic bad luck that inhabits the W&M basketball program. You can choose. I am just observing ....

Nathan Knight is the first CAA player since George Evans (GMU) to win POY and Defensive POY in the same season. Evans did it twice, in 1999 and 2001. By the way, GMU won the CAAT in both 1999 and 2001. I don't remember George Evans ever shooting any 3-pointers. He was a classic back-to-the-basket post man.

A similar player was Odell Hodge of ODU. He played from 1992-1993 to 1996-1997 (he was injured and out all year in 1995). Hodge had numbers very close to Knight's, but better. Hodge had 2117 points and 1086 rebounds. He also had 286 blocks. He was on the all-Defensive team in 1997 (maybe more often but the write-up was meager) and he was the CAA POY and CAAT MVP in both 1994 and 1997. Interestingly, in 1994 Hodge was CAAT MVP and his team lost in the final to JMU. ODU won in 1995 (the year Hodge was injured) and won again in his last year in 1997. I also don't ever remember Hodge shooting a 3-pointer. (One other tidbit -- Hodge currently lives in Brussels, Belgium. Too bad he couldn't have given Andy Van Vliet some power-move pointers while he was there).

So, based on Knight's stats being in the same neighborhood as CAA greats Hodge and Evans, you might expect the same kind of results. Instead, during the last two years (Knight's best years), W&M has bowed out to a worse-seeded team in their first game.

It is clear that W&M underachieved. You assign the blame -- but definitely not Knight's fault.

Yes Nate was great but the reason the team so grossly underachieved is because he was not a leader and was generally selfish. You cant consistently pout during practice without it affecting the chemistry of a team. You can't continuously tell everyone how much you hate the staff without it affecting the chemistry of a team. This year was Nate's team so the pouting was dampened but we had no offensive system so when we cant score 1 on 1 we don't even know how to play basketball.

Team's need guys to stitch together the divas of a roster. Theres way too much head shaking with this current group of players. Saw the same thing out of Omar Prewitt. He had some talent but just negative body language. I'm excited to see Luke get to lead a team because hes not a head shaker and I'm hoping that trickles down to the rest of the team and he and Dane can build a foundation that extends to future classes.

Another thing that people seem to fail to realize is the state of the program when Tony took over and when Dane is taking over. A losing season now is unacceptable because Tony built the program to a point where we did not have conference losing records. I keep saying it but the resources being given to Dane are so vast to that of Tony. The talent, the reputation, and the facilities are all superior to that which Tony began with. We would have been top 4 at a minimum with Tony here for eternity. As NJ alum keeps pointing out, how do you maximize your chance of making the tournament? Maximize the amount of chances you have to win a conference championship. And Tony built this program to where we had a chance each and every year. Consistent excellence is what we had and now, I dont see that happening. And if it does, it wont be consistent. Maybe we'll be good in 5 years then struggle etc. It just makes no logical sense to make the decisions our ad made. Consistent excellence is so hard to find and you don't throw it away when you find it.

Lastly, if our ad had a semblance of intuition, she would see that if you feel you need to make a change, then hire a younger, more likable Tony and that was Jonathan. And now as I've said, we are going to watch Elon succeed where we could have been. And it is 80% on our ad and 20% on the players and alumni that forced the change, though we pay this ad not to make such short sighted decisions.

Do we really need to keep paying attention to this obvious troll?

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(03-09-2020 06:01 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  Do we really need to keep paying attention to this obvious troll?

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Which one? I can't keep them sorted.

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(03-09-2020 06:01 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  Do we really need to keep paying attention to this obvious troll?

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My advice... Add him to the ignore list

(03-09-2020 11:04 AM)Marshall Wythe Wrote:  Had Coach Shaver stayed and led this team to this exact same finish, I think more of us would be more accepting of a decision NOW by AD Huge to move on. But - alas - that is not the case.

No, people would simply say that 2022 would be the year, and it's unfair to judge Shaver. You know how I know?

https://csnbbs.com/thread-872117-post-15...id15964665

(03-10-2020 01:19 PM)Rocco Wrote:  

(03-09-2020 11:04 AM)Marshall Wythe Wrote:  Had Coach Shaver stayed and led this team to this exact same finish, I think more of us would be more accepting of a decision NOW by AD Huge to move on. But - alas - that is not the case.

No, people would simply say that 2022 would be the year, and it's unfair to judge Shaver. You know how I know?

https://csnbbs.com/thread-872117-post-15...id15964665

"Given what Dane accomplished this year, and the circumstances under which he accomplished same, in his rookie season, he’s my coach for as long as he wants to coach here.

Guess what?

Given what Tony accomplished in 16 years, and the circumstances under which he accomplished same, he’s my coach for as long as he wants to coach here.

The CAAT/Dance is Fool’s Gold, and distorts everything that is the Tribe MBB program, including whether to retain capable head coaches.

It’s going to take Dane five years to re-load the program with his players and his style, while he applies bandaids on an annual basis to keep the wolves at bay. He’s got those five years, and then some, from me.".

Me. From yesterday. Post #17 on the "Perspective" thread.

It's not a matter of judging. It's a matter of both men, Tony and Dane, have earned my respect and my loyalty. That may not be your cup of tea.

So, borrowing your phrase, you know less than you know.

(03-10-2020 02:26 PM)nj alum Wrote:  

(03-10-2020 01:19 PM)Rocco Wrote:  

(03-09-2020 11:04 AM)Marshall Wythe Wrote:  Had Coach Shaver stayed and led this team to this exact same finish, I think more of us would be more accepting of a decision NOW by AD Huge to move on. But - alas - that is not the case.

No, people would simply say that 2022 would be the year, and it's unfair to judge Shaver. You know how I know?

https://csnbbs.com/thread-872117-post-15...id15964665

"Given what Dane accomplished this year, and the circumstances under which he accomplished same, in his rookie season, he’s my coach for as long as he wants to coach here.

Guess what?

Given what Tony accomplished in 16 years, and the circumstances under which he accomplished same, he’s my coach for as long as he wants to coach here.

The CAAT/Dance is Fool’s Gold, and distorts everything that is the Tribe MBB program, including whether to retain capable head coaches.

It’s going to take Dane five years to re-load the program with his players and his style, while he applies bandaids on an annual basis to keep the wolves at bay. He’s got those five years, and then some, from me.".

Me. From yesterday. Post #17 on the "Perspective" thread.

It's not a matter of judging. It's a matter of both men, Tony and Dane, have earned my respect and my loyalty. That may not be your cup of tea.

So, borrowing your phrase, you know less than you know.

Why should it take 5 years to reload the program? The new Elon staff was hired at the same time and had 2 Freshman on the all conference rookie team and has a stud transfer eligible to play next year from Butler.

Honestly, if it takes 5 years to build the program then W&M hired the wrong guy. Should have offered it to Holmes or Kimble.

(03-10-2020 02:26 PM)nj alum Wrote:  

(03-10-2020 01:19 PM)Rocco Wrote:  

(03-09-2020 11:04 AM)Marshall Wythe Wrote:  Had Coach Shaver stayed and led this team to this exact same finish, I think more of us would be more accepting of a decision NOW by AD Huge to move on. But - alas - that is not the case.

No, people would simply say that 2022 would be the year, and it's unfair to judge Shaver. You know how I know?

https://csnbbs.com/thread-872117-post-15...id15964665

"Given what Dane accomplished this year, and the circumstances under which he accomplished same, in his rookie season, he’s my coach for as long as he wants to coach here.

Guess what?

Given what Tony accomplished in 16 years, and the circumstances under which he accomplished same, he’s my coach for as long as he wants to coach here.

The CAAT/Dance is Fool’s Gold, and distorts everything that is the Tribe MBB program, including whether to retain capable head coaches.

It’s going to take Dane five years to re-load the program with his players and his style, while he applies bandaids on an annual basis to keep the wolves at bay. He’s got those five years, and then some, from me.".

Me. From yesterday. Post #17 on the "Perspective" thread.

It's not a matter of judging. It's a matter of both men, Tony and Dane, have earned my respect and my loyalty. That may not be your cup of tea.

So, borrowing your phrase, you know less than you know.

Why should it take 5 years to reload the program? The new Elon staff was hired at the same time and had 2 Freshman on the all conference rookie team and has a stud transfer eligible to play next year from Butler.

Honestly, if it takes 5 years to build the program then W&M hired the wrong guy. Should have offered it to Holmes or Kimble.

The other teams aren't going to roll over and die.

I like Delaware's coach. Elon ... as you pointed out ... two frosh and a stud transfer, ready to go. Towson is going to ugly us. NU and Hofstra, well, need I say more? We're going to be competing with JMU, Drexel, Charleston, and UNCW to stay out of the play-in game for the next two years

I like your optimism, but if we are in the CAA championship game, or finish #2 in the regular season before the next five years, Dane will have done an excellent job.

That is re-loading ... getting back to where we were.

And, no, I'm not looking for a Dance ticket in those five years either.

And, if you honestly think Dane should be able to do it sooner, I'm giving him a longer leash ... boy, who do you think we are? Dancers and fast re-loaders ... cut the program some slack!

:-)

(03-10-2020 03:43 PM)nj alum Wrote:  The other teams aren't going to roll over and die.

I like Delaware's coach. Elon ... as you pointed out ... two frosh and a stud transfer, ready to go. Towson is going to ugly us. NU and Hofstra, well, need I say more? We're going to be competing with JMU, Drexel, Charleston, and UNCW to stay out of the play-in game for the next two years

I like your optimism, but if we are in the CAA championship game, or finish #2 in the regular season before the next five years, Dane will have done an excellent job.

That is re-loading ... getting back to where we were.

And, no, I'm not looking for a Dance ticket in those five years either.

And, if you honestly think Dane should be able to do it sooner, I'm giving him a longer leash ... boy, who do you think we are? Dancers and fast re-loaders ... cut the program some slack!

:-)

I agree he did an awesome job this year but if our AD expects an NCAA ticket and that was the reason she dismissed the previous staff then that’s my expectation now as well. Dane has 4 seasons left on his current contract so if he doesn’t get us there they shouldn’t the same apply for him and his staff?

Or at the very least make a CAA final? Even Tony was able to do that year 5 with a much tougher CAA and a program is much worse shape.