I have largely stayed off these boards for the last year, since the Shaver decision. I found that decision egregious. Was not able to see many games this year due to a very busy work schedule. But did see last night.

I agree with Tribal. I still want to see the Tribe win. Fischer has done a great job. But if there is karma in the world, it was on display last night.

Anyone who fails to see Huge for what she is - a self-promoting buffoon determined to advance herself at all costs - needs to get their vision checked. If anyone wants a compelling contrast, take a look at the conduct of UVA AD Carla Williams - an absolute class act.

Afraid we will see the fruits of this decision starting next year. Easy to cover up issues with the Conference POY and a 7'1 Big Ten transfer and a couple of decent guards. Replicating Shaver's recruiting success (a process that took fifteen years to develop) may prove elusive. Just like wins.

And for the life of me, I do not see the importance of the NCAA tournament. Agree it is Fools Gold.

(03-09-2020 03:58 PM)ttgwm02 Wrote:  I have largely stayed off these boards for the last year, since the Shaver decision. I found that decision egregious. Was not able to see many games this year due to a very busy work schedule. But did see last night.

I agree with Tribal. I still want to see the Tribe win. Fischer has done a great job. But if there is karma in the world, it was on display last night.

Anyone who fails to see Huge for what she is - a self-promoting buffoon determined to advance herself at all costs - needs to get their vision checked. If anyone wants a compelling contrast, take a look at the conduct of UVA AD Carla Williams - an absolute class act.

Afraid we will see the fruits of this decision starting next year. Easy to cover up issues with the Conference POY and a 7'1 Big Ten transfer and a couple of decent guards. Replicating Shaver's recruiting success (a process that took fifteen years to develop) may prove elusive. Just like wins.

And for the life of me, I do not see the importance of the NCAA tournament. Agree it is Fools Gold.

Bobby Bowden, doubtless among others, was known for saying that it’s not always about how good you are but about how good your opponents are. This year’s coaches, players, OOC and CAA schedules resulted in 21 wins and some regular season accolades.

A challenge for the program has been intra-season improvement — in February and March are passes crisper? Is defense more intense? Are scoring droughts shorter? Are mental mistakes fewer?

Home victory over Elon was cause for optimism. The Tribe beat an improved team in a situation where the program has sometimes laid the proverbial egg. First round tournament loss, however, leaves the program at same overall plateau as a year ago. The question is why. Is it because the program perpetually fails to execute or are other factors at work?

Impending facility improvement will be helpful. Still, it remains to be seen whether the program can achieve additional success given present level of sustainability resources available and academic constraints. One suspects it might be harder for a basketball player to gain entry into W&M than into an Ivy League school and when he does it’s missing the Ivy League cachet. Almost wonder if W&M continues to try to compete with a Patriot League program in the CAA? If CAA stays down, this might fly. If other programs recover, it might be ugly.

Finally, a word...

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March, 2019: “However, we have high expectations for our men’s basketball program, including participating in the NCAA tournament, and we will not shy away from setting the bar high,”

Quite a contrast, no, in just one year?

As for the TEAM/individuals comment, spot on critique of several of Tony’s most recent teams. Of course, hard to assess whether that’s the fault of the coach, or the individual players, although the coach always takes the fall in the pro’s.

Holistic best? Not championships? I’m very confused as to the “core” values guiding the athletics department.

Finally, the last three lines above “GO TRIBE” are all about the AD’s vision, belief in her, her inspiration, and her leadership. Yep, Jon’s team knocking her department’s team out of the Dance competition hit home.... the Shaver dismissal is no longer justifiable ... and things are about to get very interesting over the next few years as she is going to be forced to back away from Dance ticket/championships as they become unachievable in MBB for the next several years.

This message is odd -- format-wise it looks almost like a re-tweet, rather than something that originated from Ms. Huge (e.g. the box around it, different font, etc.). And the use of the royal "we" toward the end (after using "I" previously) is a little confusing.

Anyway, at the end of the day I really don't want/need/expect statements from the AD about individual game outcomes, even in the tournament. I'm sorry for the team (Nate in particular), the coaching staff, and the fan base, but the one person I'm not sorry for is Ms. Huge.

I have to admit, if the Tribe had run the table at the CAAT and broken down the proverbial door, it would have been more bitter than sweet for me because it might have been taken as a vindication of last March's events (among others). For one person (and one person only), the poetic justice that the fates have chosen to mete out is entirely appropriate.

Have I "moved on"? Apparently not -- that's not the way I'm wired, I guess. As my screen name tries to suggest, I've been around Tribe athletics since I was a kid -- 50 years, give or take, in terms of what I actually was old enough to remember. There's always been plenty to critique but only very rarely a lack of class, or good faith. My perceptions; your mileage may vary.

(03-10-2020 08:32 AM)Blow Gym rat Wrote:  For one person (and one person only), the poetic justice that the fates have chosen to mete out is entirely appropriate.

Spot on, of course. The tragedy of it, as in epic Greek tragedy, is that we all had to pay for her unchecked hubris.

While I'm neither pro nor anti Huge, I don't understand the demand to hear a statement from her or have her speak after this loss. AD's don't normally do press conferences or issue statements at most schools after season ending basketball losses. Her actions seem pretty normal (though I understand this is more about people just finding new reasons to get angry at her).

And secondarily - if you truly believe that the quest to make the NCAA tourney is "fool's gold" and something we shouldn't be engaging in, then you should be pretty thrilled at the season we just had. 21 wins and second place in the CAA makes this one of our best seasons ever by that metric! I don't remotely agree, but you can't claim you want nothing to do with the CAA tournament or postseason and then act like this season is a failure. Not winning the conference or faring well in the conference tourney should not be a shortcoming only excused in a certain former basketball coach...

(03-10-2020 09:59 AM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  And secondarily - if you truly believe that the quest to make the NCAA tourney is "fool's gold" and something we shouldn't be engaging in, then you should be pretty thrilled at the season we just had. 21 wins and second place in the CAA makes this one of our best seasons ever by that metric! I don't remotely agree, but you can't claim you want nothing to do with the CAA tournament or postseason and then act like this season is a failure. Not winning the conference or faring well in the conference tourney should not be a shortcoming only excused in a certain former basketball coach...

First, we shouldn't be engaging in anything that has to do with the NCAA. It is corrupt. If we're not going to lead the charge to reform that organization, we shouldn't be in it. Scraps from kitchen table for us. For example, four Ohio State assistant football coaches are making $1,000,000 this year; how do we compete with that (I know, that's an extreme example, but the point is made.)?

Second, labeling failure to Dance as a shortcoming is just ridiculous. Do you really believe that the failure of AD Huge's MBB program to make the Dance is a shortcoming on her behalf? I certainly don't. Do you really believe that all of the players and staff at W&M that were involved in MBB for the last 50 years had a shortcoming because they didn't make the Dance? I certainly don't. By example, do you believe that someone who got a 3.9 has a shortcoming because they didn't get a 4.0? I certainly don't. The Dance is gravy, not an essential; the quality of the program is an essential, and we're now going into hibernation for a few years because we grabbed for the gravy before taking care of our meat and potatoes (and veggies for those so inclined).

Third, if we are going to engage, setting your program standard as "Dance or bust" is Fool's Gold.

Fourth, the only people who consider the 2019-2020 season a failure are March, 2019 AD Huge, and those who agreed with her in 2019; the Tony supporters, of which I am one, do not consider the 2019-2020 season a failure. For some reason, 2020 AD Huge, and those who support her, do not consider the 2019-2020 season a failure, even though we didn't Dance, but the 2018-2019 season was a failure, because we didn't Dance. Go figure. Coming around to my point of view, or circling the wagons?

Fourth, putting paragraphs 3 and 4 together, who's the Fool? Those who want to Dance, at the expense of dismissing a fine man and a fine coach, who gave W&M 16 wonderful years of his life? Those who wanted Tony gone, because he didn't Dance? Those who've done an about face in one year, and when we didn't Dance in 2019-2020 ... it's a "never mind"?

Has anything of an intellectual and logical nature been taught at W&M in the recent past, or is everything based on "emotion" these days, with "reason" being left on the sideline?

Spare me the hypocrisy, illogic, and contradictory words exhibited in your post.

One final point. The AD took a big gamble, and pushed all of the chips into the middle of the table in an effort to get to the Dance in 2019-2020. That gamble failed. That gamble was based on siding with the players, not with the former coach. That gamble failed. That gamble resulted in the loss of a quality assistant coach. That gamble failed in spectacular fashion. That gamble, if it had worked, would have precluded a lot of what I am now posting as a Dance ticket would have kept everyone warm for the coming nuclear winter of the next several years. The gamble did not work, it failed, and here we are ... desolate landscape which must be traversed in the coming years, with no 2020 Dance ticket to keep us warm.

On an almost annual basis, we were always "in the mix" with Tony, especially in recent CAA play. That was good enough for me; it's not good enough for others. Because of the gamble that failed, we are not going to achieve Tony's "in the mix" consistency for another 4-5 years at the earliest. I have every confidence that Dane can achieve Tony's level of having a consistent, annual "in the mix", program, but it is going to take some time, and there's no guarantee that Dane is going to stay here for 16 years.

This did not have to happen this way. But a gamble was taken, and it failed. Frankly, I would really like to know who else was behind this failed gamble besides the AD. What other gambles are cooking?

I feel like it needs to be said that there is a sizable (definitely not a majority but we exist) segment of the fan base who thought firing Tony made sense for the overall health of the program, not some mythical quest to dance. There are those of us who thought Tony consistently underachieved with the talent he brought in (which yes to his credit he did bring in). Those of us who thought Tony wasn't strong enough tactically to be as tough of a disciplinarian as he was. Those of us who were constantly frustrated with his clock management and ineffectiveness at shaping a defense.

I've seen talk in the past that we essentially gave up a B+ coach in the blind hope that we'd land an A coach. Personally, I always thought Tony was more of a C- coach. Not terrible but slightly below average. Given that grading (which is where I assume AD Huge would peg Tony), the decision to let him go is a lot more palatable.

Look Sunday night sucked. It really ******* sucked. But I've always been a hard seller on the whole "three days in March" mentality. I'm really damn proud of how good our team was this year. We took home three major pieces of conference hardware and finished second in the conference. We had the most wins in 60+ years. Dane did better, with a worse roster, in a tougher conference. (And yes I stand by that last bit. Massey, Sagarin, Bart Torvik, my own eyes all said the conference was better this year ymmv)

Basically I don't believe that Huge fired Tony because of one game and I don't believe losing one game invalidates her decision. And next year might be rough. But maybe it won't be! Maybe Dane really is a COY caliber coach that can get the most out if his guys. Maybe the jump Luke took this season gets replicated by other players. Maybe Dane is more comfortable coaching to a system he prefers more that dumping the ball to Nate for iso-ball (the right strategy this year). Maybe he's a top shelf recruiter or has the ability to sell W&M to transfers. There's just too many variables left for me to say that firing Tony has set the program back for years to come.

Sorry for the rant but I've been waiting to say a lot of this since last March but wanted to give people some space to heal.

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(03-10-2020 11:30 AM)zablenoise Wrote:  I feel like it needs to be said that there is a sizable (definitely not a majority but we exist) segment of the fan base who thought firing Tony made sense for the overall health of the program, not some mythical quest to dance. There are those of us who thought Tony consistently underachieved with the talent he brought in (which yes to his credit he did bring in). Those of us who thought Tony wasn't strong enough tactically to be as tough of a disciplinarian as he was. Those of us who were constantly frustrated with his clock management and ineffectiveness at shaping a defense.

I've seen talk in the past that we essentially gave up a B+ coach in the blind hope that we'd land an A coach. Personally, I always thought Tony was more of a C- coach. Not terrible but slightly below average. Given that grading (which is where I assume AD Huge would peg Tony), the decision to let him go is a lot more palatable.

Look Sunday night sucked. It really ******* sucked. But I've always been a hard seller on the whole "three days in March" mentality. I'm really damn proud of how good our team was this year. We took home three major pieces of conference hardware and finished second in the conference. We had the most wins in 60+ years. Dane did better, with a worse roster, in a tougher conference. (And yes I stand by that last bit. Massey, Sagarin, Bart Torvik, my own eyes all said the conference was better this year ymmv)

Basically I don't believe that Huge fired Tony because of one game and I don't believe losing one game invalidates her decision. And next year might be rough. But maybe it won't be! Maybe Dane really is a COY caliber coach that can get the most out if his guys. Maybe the jump Luke took this season gets replicated by other players. Maybe Dane is more comfortable coaching to a system he prefers more that dumping the ball to Nate for iso-ball (the right strategy this year). Maybe he's a top shelf recruiter or has the ability to sell W&M to transfers. There's just too many variables left for me to say that firing Tony has set the program back for years to come.

Sorry for the rant but I've been waiting to say a lot of this since last March but wanted to give people some space to heal.

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I agree with all of this. The only thing we know for sure about next year is that we're going to be short two all-conference players and two other starters. There's not even enough sample size to say that Coach Fischer is a great coach or just had a great team. We find out a lot starting with the rest of this recruiting season.

I think it speaks to the quality of the job that Shaver did in his first decade that his 110-79 last 6 seasons is a ‘C-‘ coaching job.

FWIW, if landing strong recruiting classes, being unable to coach them up, and weak in-game management is a ‘C-‘, then I’d like to know how people view the Mike London hire, seeing as that has been his career’s reputation.

(And I say this as someone who is positive on London’s hire because at this level it’s about talent acquisition more than anything else. Going back to basketball, in P5 leagues, barring the 4/5 elite guys each year there is a fairly flat group of talent so coaching really stands out. As you go lower, getting guys who are ‘above’ the level of the competition gives you a shot to win every time you take the court, as we saw with Knight and sometimes Thornton, like Riller/Pusica/et. al. Now coaching still matters, I think we’ll see that with Inglesby to the positive side and Rowe to the negative side, but talent matters more IMO)

(03-10-2020 09:59 AM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  While I'm neither pro nor anti Huge, I don't understand the demand to hear a statement from her or have her speak after this loss. AD's don't normally do press conferences or issue statements at most schools after season ending basketball losses. Her actions seem pretty normal (though I understand this is more about people just finding new reasons to get angry at her)

I'm surely not looking for new reasons to get angry at her. Quite the opposite. I'm not one of those idiots who wants a politician to fail because I don't agree with his or her views. I want what I love (in this case W&M) to be great and who gets credit for Tribe greatness doesn't matter.

I'm fairly active on Twitter, meaning I check my account several times a day. Huge, invariably, "likes" or retweets ANYTHING positive or that supports her vision of how things should be. She ALWAYS likes/retweets after a win or accolade and it doesn't matter if it's a track meet, swimming or basketball. I have NEVER, not once, seen her even address a loss, in any sport. Oh man, the crowing she did when MBB set a new wins record and overt jabs at Tony were quick and deadly. Taunting is what it was. I think it's only fair to be equally communicative when her prize thoroughbred pulled up lame on the first stretch.

Yes, ADs usually don't weigh in after a loss but they're equally silent after a win. Huge is different.

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(03-10-2020 12:21 PM)Tribal Wrote:  Oh man, the crowing she did when MBB set a new wins record and overt jabs at Tony were quick and deadly. Taunting is what it was.

Wtf? Is this true? That's absolutely absurd. I feel like her tenure has been a pretty mixed bag but that's beyond the pale.

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(03-10-2020 11:58 AM)tribalwarfare Wrote:  I think it speaks to the quality of the job that Shaver did in his first decade that his 110-79 last 6 seasons is a ‘C-‘ coaching job.

FWIW, if landing strong recruiting classes, being unable to coach them up, and weak in-game management is a ‘C-‘, ...

Personally, I thought the C- applied to Shaver's in-game coaching alone. I might have misread though.

(03-10-2020 12:21 PM)Tribal Wrote:  Oh man, the crowing she did when MBB set a new wins record and overt jabs at Tony were quick and deadly. Taunting is what it was.

That would explain some things ... like Elon's obvious joy on Sunday night.

I would like to point something out.

The diversification of the roster in the MBB program under Tony Shaver was exceptional, and a sea change from what had gone on for decades in our program.

This is seldom mentioned.

So, as some of you get into the weeds of "X's" and "O's", Tony was diversifying W&M prior to the current Administration's push for same, in addition to upholding the academic traditions of the school.

Many were holding their fire to see whether the Dance ticket would be earned this year. A 2020 Dance ticket would have provided cover.

There is no 2020 Dance ticket. The issue lies exposed. It ain't pretty.

FWIW, here's what Huge tweeted. Reach your own conclusions:

https://twitter.com/skh21/status/1235993701169737730

https://twitter.com/skh21/status/1235995452157448193

https://twitter.com/skh21/status/1235998556223348736

(03-10-2020 01:05 PM)Rocco Wrote:  FWIW, here's what Huge tweeted. Reach your own conclusions:

https://twitter.com/skh21/status/1235993701169737730

Not the tweet by Huge but I especially agree with the last tweet by Bryan W.

Her text speak style of tweeting annoys me, but other than that I don't really think any of those are bad tweets/shots at Tony

(03-10-2020 01:27 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  Her text speak style of tweeting annoys me, but other than that I don't really think any of those are bad tweets/shots at Tony

Don't B a H8R

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